Light clay has been a problem before, specifically with lower tiers. As power creep goes up, it should be kept an eye on. If it's the common thing making multiple pokemon overwhelming, it deserves a suspect. This isn't even adding in tera changing straightforward interactions. It's been banned in multiple lower tiers throughout gens. It being a potential issue is very much a reality, and shouldn't be written off because of honestly flimsy reasons such as "it hasn't been an issue before".
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Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v2 [Update on Post #5186]
- Thread starter TPP
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You know, I think with the rate of powercreep coming in the future for the next gens, I think its definite that it will be banned in the one of the next gens, or maybe even Post-DLC, if the meta doesn't settle down more.
Just sneaking my way in here, don't mind me. Recently tried Sliggoo as a meme tier pick for Rain... Found out it's fire AF. Rest + Hydration + Eviolite just allows you to do so much, even with such a tiny Special Attack stat.
Goodra also works, but your item is more up in the air. Lefties, Boots, Cloak... Anything but AV, so you can Rest. Sliggoo is actually bulkier than Goodra on both sides after Eviolite, which is hilarious.
Of course, playing against Little Timmy primes, but watching it either hard check or hard wall various Ubers tier mons is hilarious.
252 SpA Kyogre Water Spout (150 BP) vs. 244 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Sliggoo in Rain: 90-106 (26.6 - 31.3%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
252 SpA Kyogre Thunder vs. 244 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Sliggoo: 29-35 (8.5 - 10.3%) -- possibly the worst move ever
252 SpA Kyogre Ice Beam vs. 244 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Sliggoo: 98-116 (28.9 - 34.3%) -- 2.9% chance to 3HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Hadron Engine Miraidon Overheat vs. 244 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Tera Steel Sliggoo in Rain: 128-152 (37.8 - 44.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Hadron Engine Miraidon Draco Meteor vs. 244 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Tera Steel Sliggoo: 96-114 (28.4 - 33.7%) -- 0.3% chance to 3HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Hadron Engine Miraidon Electro Drift vs. 244 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Tera Steel Sliggoo in Electric Terrain: 193-228 (57.1 - 67.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Griseous Core Giratina-Origin Draco Meteor vs. 244 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Tera Steel Sliggoo: 54-63 (15.9 - 18.6%) -- possible 6HKO
252 SpA Griseous Core Giratina-Origin Shadow Ball vs. 244 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Tera Steel Sliggoo: 67-79 (19.8 - 23.3%) -- possible 5HKO
252 SpA Giratina-Origin Earth Power vs. 244 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Tera Steel Sliggoo: 82-98 (24.2 - 28.9%) -- 99.5% chance to 4HKO
This thing is an absolute monster, lmfao.
Goodra also works, but your item is more up in the air. Lefties, Boots, Cloak... Anything but AV, so you can Rest. Sliggoo is actually bulkier than Goodra on both sides after Eviolite, which is hilarious.
Of course, playing against Little Timmy primes, but watching it either hard check or hard wall various Ubers tier mons is hilarious.
252 SpA Kyogre Water Spout (150 BP) vs. 244 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Sliggoo in Rain: 90-106 (26.6 - 31.3%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
252 SpA Kyogre Thunder vs. 244 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Sliggoo: 29-35 (8.5 - 10.3%) -- possibly the worst move ever
252 SpA Kyogre Ice Beam vs. 244 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Sliggoo: 98-116 (28.9 - 34.3%) -- 2.9% chance to 3HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Hadron Engine Miraidon Overheat vs. 244 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Tera Steel Sliggoo in Rain: 128-152 (37.8 - 44.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Hadron Engine Miraidon Draco Meteor vs. 244 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Tera Steel Sliggoo: 96-114 (28.4 - 33.7%) -- 0.3% chance to 3HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Hadron Engine Miraidon Electro Drift vs. 244 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Tera Steel Sliggoo in Electric Terrain: 193-228 (57.1 - 67.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Griseous Core Giratina-Origin Draco Meteor vs. 244 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Tera Steel Sliggoo: 54-63 (15.9 - 18.6%) -- possible 6HKO
252 SpA Griseous Core Giratina-Origin Shadow Ball vs. 244 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Tera Steel Sliggoo: 67-79 (19.8 - 23.3%) -- possible 5HKO
252 SpA Giratina-Origin Earth Power vs. 244 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Tera Steel Sliggoo: 82-98 (24.2 - 28.9%) -- 99.5% chance to 4HKO
This thing is an absolute monster, lmfao.
It also invites in anything with a setup move, because an uninvested 83 SpA is not scaring anyone. Your biggest threat is a Sludge Bomb poison or Thunder paralysis, since Sliggoo learns neither a boosting move nor entry hazards nor even a status move like Thunder Wave. Doesn't matter how hard a mon is to break when Gholdengo can set up to +6 in front of you, and then:
+6 252 SpA Gholdengo Make It Rain vs. 244 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Sliggoo: 352-415 (104.1 - 122.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Or even worse, Kingambit - he's coming in for free, and what's Sliggoo going to do back?
12 SpA Sliggoo-Hisui Thunder vs. 236 HP / 0 SpD Kingambit: 79-93 (19.7 - 23.2%) -- possible 6HKO after Leftovers recovery
Sliggoo-H does technically get Curse, but it unfortunately lacks Dragon Tail so it can't phase out Gambit and Gholdengo like Goodra-H can. If it weren't for that downside, I don't think it would be the worst thing you could use in OU (at least as far as NFEs are concerned though good luck dealing with Encore, Trick, and Salt Cure).
those are some nice calcs but last i checked none of those mons are allowed in ou. here's what is in ou:
- kingambit, which sets up on sliggoo for free
- iron valiant, which has a million different sets, all of which hit sliggoo super effectively and many of which contain close combat to hit it super effectively after tera too
- great tusk, which wins the matchup if it's got attack investment, knock off, or an attack boost, so basically always
- gholdengo and its wacky zany trick sets
- fucking baxcalibur
- dragapult, which u-turns out
- enamorus, which i guess you might be able to clock with thunder sometimes? unless it decides to tera ground and win anyway
- glowking, which can just sit there and sponge hits until the heat death of the universe if it wants
- ting-lu, see above (although if it's raining and you carry muddy water, you might almost do damage to it)
- zapdos, which is probably the closest on this list to being an ok matchup for sliggoo, but it does run roughshod over sliggoo's teammates because, y'know, rain team
- a bunch of other mons, but let's be real, these are the 10 you're going to see. when i was a schoolchild i never could have imagined saying this but i can't fucking wait for september so this toil and drudgery can finally be over
I did a similar thing a few times back in Gen 8, but thought it would be neat to do again now that this Pre-DLC meta game is coming to a close. The purpose was to look at the correlation between viability ranking and usage, as well as changes in usage from low-to-high ladder.
General conclusion about the ladder metagame: More viable Pokemon are used more in general. The gap in usage grows as you move up the ladder. S and A tier usage usage make up ~77% of all usage in the 1695 stats.
Greatest Increase in Usage from 0 ⮕ 1695:
1.
+113%
2.
+82%
3.
+69%
4.
+57%
5.
+56%
6.
+53%
7.
+53%
Greatest Decrease in Usage from 0 ⮕ 1695:
1.
-47%
2.
-46%
3.
-40%
4.
-38%
5.
-32%
Also a little interesting are the only Pokemon without any difference either way as you move up the ladder are
and 
. I'm hoping to drum up a little discussion here on why certain Pokemon or strategies lose/gain viability as you move up the ladder. I'm also really interested to do this again after OLT to see if/how things change.
I took Pokemon that were in either S, S-, A+, A, A-, B+, B, or B- rank and categorized them as such. I copied over the August 2023 usage stats weighed for either 0 or 1695. I then looked at the differences between 0 to 1695 for each Pokemon (percentage increased based on 0 usage), then looked at the averages in each viability their. I grouped together S and S- due to small sample size.
| Viability Tier | Average 0 Usage | Average 1695 Usage | Average Usage Increase 0 ⮕ 1695 |
| S/S- | 28.0% | 37.6% | 34.7% |
| A+ | 15.7% | 19.1% | 32.9% |
| A | 11.3% | 12.3% | 12.0% |
| A- | 7.2% | 7.6% | 14.0% |
| B+ | 6.1% | 5.2% | -9.6% |
| B | 2.8% | 3.4% | -4.7% |
| B- | 2.2% | 1.9% | -1.9% |
General conclusion about the ladder metagame: More viable Pokemon are used more in general. The gap in usage grows as you move up the ladder. S and A tier usage usage make up ~77% of all usage in the 1695 stats.
Greatest Increase in Usage from 0 ⮕ 1695:
1.
+113%2.
+82%3.
+69%4.
+57%5.
+56%6.
+53%7.
+53%Greatest Decrease in Usage from 0 ⮕ 1695:
1.
-47%2.
-46%3.
-40%4.
-38%5.
-32%Also a little interesting are the only Pokemon without any difference either way as you move up the ladder are
and . I'm hoping to drum up a little discussion here on why certain Pokemon or strategies lose/gain viability as you move up the ladder. I'm also really interested to do this again after OLT to see if/how things change.
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Thank you for this post. A lot of these make a fair bit of sense. The good fat Pokemon rise in usage as teams at higher Elo teams becoming more predictable. More offensive Pokemon like HLil dominate because offense or HO match up easier against the high variance of team styles in low ladder. Remember, you can't get cheesed by low ladder teams if you outspeed & kill the cheese. The others are "good on paper" defensive Pokemon like Corv (and the countless Defog Corvs still running around).I did a similar thing a few times back in Gen 8, but thought it would be neat to do again now that this Pre-DLC meta game is coming to a close. The purpose was to look at the correlation between viability ranking and usage, as well as changes in usage from low-to-high ladder.
I took Pokemon that were in either S, S-, A+, A, A-, B+, B, or B- rank and categorized them as such. I copied over the August 2023 usage stats weighed for either 0 or 1695. I then looked at the differences between 0 to 1695 for each Pokemon (percentage increased based on 0 usage), then looked at the averages in each viability their. I grouped together S and S- due to small sample size.
Viability Tier Average 0 Usage Average 1695 Usage Average Usage Increase 0 ⮕ 1695 S/S- 28.0% 37.6% 34.7% A+ 15.7% 19.1% 32.9% A 11.3% 12.3% 12.0% A- 7.2% 7.6% 14.0% B+ 6.1% 5.2% -9.6% B 2.8% 3.4% -4.7% B- 2.2% 1.9% -1.9%
General conclusion about the ladder metagame: More viable Pokemon are used more in general. The gap in usage grows as you move up the ladder. S and A tier usage usage make up ~77% of all usage in the 1695 stats.
Greatest Increase in Usage from 0 ⮕ 1695:
1.
2.
3.
4.
5.
6.
7.
Greatest Decrease in Usage from 0 ⮕ 1695:
1.
2.
3.
4.
5.
Also a little interesting are the only Pokemon without any difference either way as you move up the ladder are
Interesting that Ting-lu sees the highest increase. I'm guessing this is due to the fact that it's entry hazard setting capabilities can put its team at a drastic advantage in some MUs, particularly against teams that don't have Hatterene or Cinderace. In general, there are few MUs that it will truly be deadweight in because almost every Pokemon in the tier hates taking hazard Damage, even top tier Pokemon like Kingambit and Great Tusk).I did a similar thing a few times back in Gen 8, but thought it would be neat to do again now that this Pre-DLC meta game is coming to a close. The purpose was to look at the correlation between viability ranking and usage, as well as changes in usage from low-to-high ladder.
I took Pokemon that were in either S, S-, A+, A, A-, B+, B, or B- rank and categorized them as such. I copied over the August 2023 usage stats weighed for either 0 or 1695. I then looked at the differences between 0 to 1695 for each Pokemon (percentage increased based on 0 usage), then looked at the averages in each viability their. I grouped together S and S- due to small sample size.
Viability Tier Average 0 Usage Average 1695 Usage Average Usage Increase 0 ⮕ 1695 S/S- 28.0% 37.6% 34.7% A+ 15.7% 19.1% 32.9% A 11.3% 12.3% 12.0% A- 7.2% 7.6% 14.0% B+ 6.1% 5.2% -9.6% B 2.8% 3.4% -4.7% B- 2.2% 1.9% -1.9%
General conclusion about the ladder metagame: More viable Pokemon are used more in general. The gap in usage grows as you move up the ladder. S and A tier usage usage make up ~77% of all usage in the 1695 stats.
Greatest Increase in Usage from 0 ⮕ 1695:
1.
2.
3.
4.
5.
6.
7.
Greatest Decrease in Usage from 0 ⮕ 1695:
1.
2.
3.
4.
5.
Also a little interesting are the only Pokemon without any difference either way as you move up the ladder are
Torn-T usage increasing so much is a bit shocking , but im guessing its increase is due to its base usage being low.
Gambit usage increasjng makes sense. Its priority is a very consistent tool vs many playstyles. It can just outright steal games too.
The general trend suggests that rain sees an increase in usage at higher elo while sun sees a decrease in usage.
I honestly disag
At some point I tried making Tera Grass of this in order to abuse Flower Veil. It didn,t work.
Even with Synthesis and other Teras, Hatterene looks much better and even Scream Tail and Sylveon probably can work better as CM Sweepers. With Clefable coming to the party soon, I don,t see a bright future for Florges.
Someone sees potential for our flower girl?
I experimented a bit with CM+Draining Kiss Florges. Was really good in the 1400s, having a bulky Fairy type with reliable recovery in this meta is pretty useful
At some point I tried making Tera Grass of this in order to abuse Flower Veil. It didn,t work.
Even with Synthesis and other Teras, Hatterene looks much better and even Scream Tail and Sylveon probably can work better as CM Sweepers. With Clefable coming to the party soon, I don,t see a bright future for Florges.
Let's actually take a look at things that Sliggoo wants to switch in on that it can actually check/sit on.
- Glowking - Seriously, just as much as Glowking sits on Sliggoo, Sliggoo sits on it as well. It's a two-way walling street.
- Zapdos. There's not much offensive or defensive Zapdos can do to Sliggoo.
- Cresselia - This one is more of just a basic check than anything else. Cress does set up in your face, but it's the same thing as Espathra, really. You need an Unaware mon to properly check it.
- Specs Pult - This one is wishy-washy. If you're already Tera'd, or come in on Surf/Flamethrower pre-Tera, then you force it out. If it Dracos you pre-Tera, or isn't Specs/is Band/Is Wisp + Hex and you don't have Rain up, then you're going to be hurting.
- Enam-T - Similar situation to Cress. Can freely set up on you, but you can still sting it pretty bad with Sludge Bomb + Poison or Thunder spam.
- Greninja - Gren just sort of falls over to Sliggoo, really. Sliggoo is too bulky for it to break through without Ice Beam, and even with it you can just click Tera Steel and still outbulk it.
- Hatterene - This one is wonky but it's also hilarious. In the rain, Hat really can't do anything to you. Nuzzle gets cured immediately, Psychic/Psyshock/Dazzling Gleam/Draining Kiss all bounce off of you. Sure, it could try to set up, but it's going to take some fat Sludge Bombs in the process.
- Heatran - Barring Magma Storm passive damage, you switch in on Heatran all damn day, pre-Tera. It's attacks pretty much just bounce off of you, and Rest makes the match-up a nightmare.
- Offensive Moltres - This thing does NOT appreciate having you switch into it. Most Kantonian Moltres are defensive, which also very much does not appreciate you existing.
- Defensive Pelipper - Same thing as Moltres; does NOT like you switching into it. It's attacks pretty much just bounce off of you, and you click Thunder and it's sad.
- Rotom-Wash: Nothing about Washtom likes dealing with Sliggoo at all. Trick is a thing, but every other move it has bounces off. Heattom and Mowtom also have this issue.
- Toxapex: Toxa who? Poison what? Sliggoo don't care! You hit it harder than it hits you. Infestation exists, but you have Rest. Meanwhile, Thunder smacks AV Pex for upwards of 26%.
- Walking Wake: Another wishy-washy match-up for Sliggoo. In base, you check Hydro Steam and Flamethrower, but get punished by Draco and Dragon Pulse. In Tera, you check Draco and Pulse, but Flamethrower and Hydro Steam in Rain sting.
- Hydreigon: This is yet another wishy-washy match-up. If it has Taunt, you have a problem. If it's a Nasty Plot set, you have a problem. If it's mostly offensive without either of these tools, you actually check it pretty well. The only variant that really gives you trouble is the type that runs Earth Power over Fire coverage. Draco/EP covers you pretty well. However, if it is Draco/Fire instead, or Dark Pulse/EP, then you're sitting just fine.
- Specs Mence - In the Rain, Mence's attacks pretty much just bounce off. Not many people still use Specs Mence, unlike me, but still notable.
- Scream Tail - 50/50. This thing isn't really a threat to anyone, much less Sliggoo. Encore is the worst thing to deal with but otherwise this ball of stupid just eats fat Sludge Bombs.
- Skeledirge - Unless they REALLY want to commit to the Torch Song spam to get their stats up, Dirge does NOT appreciate Sliggoo sitting on it. Wisp + Hex crumples due to Rest/Hydration, Torch Song does nothing in and out of Rain, and the only things left are Earth Power or Tera Blast.
- Thundy-T - Unless they are a Nasty Plot variant, Thundy can hardly touch Sliggoo. Tbolt/Volt Switch/Knot all hardly touch it, leaving only TB Flying, Dark Pulse, and Focus Miss. Of those, TB and Focus Miss are the only ones really worth worrying about.
- Torn-T - Same issues as Thundy. Focus Miss is your only good offensive move. Heat Wave is hard nerfed by the Rain, and Hurricane does nothing to Tera Steel. Non-NP sets look at Sliggoo and crumple.
- Volcanion - Sliggoo sits on this thing all day and then some. Rain + Hydration means that even if they get a burn, it isn't lasting very long. Rest gives you too much resilience against it, and Thunder allows you to clap back insanely hard
But hey, what do I know? I can't even get reqs for tests, don't play in tournaments, and have low ranking on the ladder. I'm not allowed to have a creative opinon, unlike someone else here.
Is there a forum for higher quality meta discussion? We have two pages here discussing Sliggoo lmfao
Getting to see players introduce niche picks is quite fun and interesting ngl, and I wouldn't say the sliggoo discussion is low quality lol
although it does seem... a bit niche and a bit too passive imo lol
I am trying to use H-Goodra currently & the current experience I have using it somewhat matches yours when using Sliggoo. It does match up really well vs Zapdos & other Electrics as well as Water-Types like Gren. Hydration Rest is an interesting way of getting around its main weakness, which would be a lack of good reliable recovery. You mentioned Cresselia as a bad MU for Sliggoo, but TBH, I think Goodra can actually serve as an OK check to it in certain situations since it can phase it out w/ D-Tail & if Cress uses Tera Fairy, it can pressure w/ another move like Iron Head. I'd say having access to D-Tail in a setup heavy meta is a massive & is one of Goodra-H's best traits. Sliggoo-H lacking that tool is a big weakness vs most key threats that would come in & try to take advantage of it like NP Gholdengo (though even if it had it, it would struggle vs stuff like Trick and Encore which are very common).Let's actually take a look at things that Sliggoo wants to switch in on that it can actually check/sit on.
I also love it how people justify it being bad because it doesn't hit hard like Tusk does, lmao. While I know and understand that the format is full of powerhouses, having a brain also helps when piloting, y'know? You don't stay in on physical threats. Ever. Power also isn't everything. This is a lesson I've had to teach many players over my time in SV. That's why I brought up the idea of this Sliggoo; It's a neat little niche fire pick that I found ends up checking some annoying things, and can even put Little Timmy Ubers spammers in their place when playing on cart.
- Glowking - Seriously, just as much as Glowking sits on Sliggoo, Sliggoo sits on it as well. It's a two-way walling street.
- Zapdos. There's not much offensive or defensive Zapdos can do to Sliggoo.
- Cresselia - This one is more of just a basic check than anything else. Cress does set up in your face, but it's the same thing as Espathra, really. You need an Unaware mon to properly check it.
- Specs Pult - This one is wishy-washy. If you're already Tera'd, or come in on Surf/Flamethrower pre-Tera, then you force it out. If it Dracos you pre-Tera, or isn't Specs/is Band/Is Wisp + Hex and you don't have Rain up, then you're going to be hurting.
- Enam-T - Similar situation to Cress. Can freely set up on you, but you can still sting it pretty bad with Sludge Bomb + Poison or Thunder spam.
- Greninja - Gren just sort of falls over to Sliggoo, really. Sliggoo is too bulky for it to break through without Ice Beam, and even with it you can just click Tera Steel and still outbulk it.
- Hatterene - This one is wonky but it's also hilarious. In the rain, Hat really can't do anything to you. Nuzzle gets cured immediately, Psychic/Psyshock/Dazzling Gleam/Draining Kiss all bounce off of you. Sure, it could try to set up, but it's going to take some fat Sludge Bombs in the process.
- Heatran - Barring Magma Storm passive damage, you switch in on Heatran all damn day, pre-Tera. It's attacks pretty much just bounce off of you, and Rest makes the match-up a nightmare.
- Offensive Moltres - This thing does NOT appreciate having you switch into it. Most Kantonian Moltres are defensive, which also very much does not appreciate you existing.
- Defensive Pelipper - Same thing as Moltres; does NOT like you switching into it. It's attacks pretty much just bounce off of you, and you click Thunder and it's sad.
- Rotom-Wash: Nothing about Washtom likes dealing with Sliggoo at all. Trick is a thing, but every other move it has bounces off. Heattom and Mowtom also have this issue.
- Toxapex: Toxa who? Poison what? Sliggoo don't care! You hit it harder than it hits you. Infestation exists, but you have Rest. Meanwhile, Thunder smacks AV Pex for upwards of 26%.
- Walking Wake: Another wishy-washy match-up for Sliggoo. In base, you check Hydro Steam and Flamethrower, but get punished by Draco and Dragon Pulse. In Tera, you check Draco and Pulse, but Flamethrower and Hydro Steam in Rain sting.
- Hydreigon: This is yet another wishy-washy match-up. If it has Taunt, you have a problem. If it's a Nasty Plot set, you have a problem. If it's mostly offensive without either of these tools, you actually check it pretty well. The only variant that really gives you trouble is the type that runs Earth Power over Fire coverage. Draco/EP covers you pretty well. However, if it is Draco/Fire instead, or Dark Pulse/EP, then you're sitting just fine.
- Specs Mence - In the Rain, Mence's attacks pretty much just bounce off. Not many people still use Specs Mence, unlike me, but still notable.
- Scream Tail - 50/50. This thing isn't really a threat to anyone, much less Sliggoo. Encore is the worst thing to deal with but otherwise this ball of stupid just eats fat Sludge Bombs.
- Skeledirge - Unless they REALLY want to commit to the Torch Song spam to get their stats up, Dirge does NOT appreciate Sliggoo sitting on it. Wisp + Hex crumples due to Rest/Hydration, Torch Song does nothing in and out of Rain, and the only things left are Earth Power or Tera Blast.
- Thundy-T - Unless they are a Nasty Plot variant, Thundy can hardly touch Sliggoo. Tbolt/Volt Switch/Knot all hardly touch it, leaving only TB Flying, Dark Pulse, and Focus Miss. Of those, TB and Focus Miss are the only ones really worth worrying about.
- Torn-T - Same issues as Thundy. Focus Miss is your only good offensive move. Heat Wave is hard nerfed by the Rain, and Hurricane does nothing to Tera Steel. Non-NP sets look at Sliggoo and crumple.
- Volcanion - Sliggoo sits on this thing all day and then some. Rain + Hydration means that even if they get a burn, it isn't lasting very long. Rest gives you too much resilience against it, and Thunder allows you to clap back insanely hard
But hey, what do I know? I can't even get reqs for tests, don't play in tournaments, and have low ranking on the ladder. I'm not allowed to have a creative opinon, unlike someone else here.
I would very much agree with this take. Dragon Tail is a major talking point between the two; H-Goodra even has the half Steel typing to allow to to better check Fairies. But also allows you to be weaker to Fighting and Ground at base... You also lose Hydration which is a major reason why I picked K-Sliggoo and K-Goodra. Realistically, I looked at what the major problems of Rain were, and outside of opposing weathers, the main threats are the weapons that Rain itself uses; Water spam and Thunder spam. Sliggoo/Goodra actually are some of the better choices (but Gastro outperforms them both.) Outside of Rain, these sets don't really do anything at all.
H-Goodra can definitely be a good check to Cress. If you carry Sludge Bomb/Flash Cannon, then even Tera Fairy CM Cress doesn't appreciate having to deal with you. However, even H-Goodra has similar issues to K-Sliggoo. Encore, Taunt, and Trick are all major thorns in your side that you need to be careful to play around. I'd probably use H-Goodra a bit more if they didn't take the happy-go-lucky K-Goodra and give it an unhealthy dose of depression.
Respectfully, rain already struggles to switch into walking wake as is or just any specs draco spammer BUT ESPECIALLY WAKE. (and yes that's a big deal.....) and its not like wake is some slow bulky draco spammer that gets outsped by everything..... its fast and bulky enough to get the jump on just about everything that's not the swift swimmer and its got the 4x resistance to the water moves so it'll always get 1 Free switch and that 1 free switch is enough to blow your entire team up. and trust me the wake is gonna get MUCH more than just 1 switch against a rain team.
specs draco literally blows up half of the team and you just have to hope to jesus that the walking wake user just fucks up and you get every 50/50 correctly because in the worst case scenario, you get 6-0ed and in the best case u lose like 1-2 mons and u revenge kill it with your gambit.
So IMO stacking another pokemon that gets nuked by specs wake on rain that's very passive? probably not the best idea......
Yep, and that is always a fair point. My rain team is far different from most "standard" rain teams, since I don't have a Swift Swim abuser (not that we have any particularly worthwhile ones anyway...) Even then, Tera Steel Gastrodon can easily sit on most of these.
Instead of an SS user, I actually run AV Azu to check dragons like Wake. Blu boi over here puts in a lot of work, both under and outside of Rain.
For those curious, my team is actually this:
Treads I'm 50/50 on, as I do need a Spinner/Defogger. I don't want to run that on Peli, as it means I need to give up Damp Rock for Boots, and while Scizor can Defog, I'd have to give up Choice Band on it.
The problem is that this whole premise is effectively false because the difference in bulk, especially on the special side, is offset by the Leftovers recovery or by the hazards damage negated by Boots, which means Goodra takes less damage over time even though Sliggoo is very slightly bulkier on paper.
252 SpA Iron Valiant Moonblast vs. 244 HP / 252+ SpD Goodra: 158-188 (41.3 - 49.
4 Atk Iron Valiant Close Combat vs. 244 HP / 12 Def Goodra: 214-253 (56 - 66.2%)
252 SpA Iron Valiant Moonblast vs. 244 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Sliggoo: 132-156 (39 - 46.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
4 Atk Iron Valiant Close Combat vs. 244 HP / 12 Def Eviolite Sliggoo: 177-208 (52.3 - 61.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Sliggoo also lacks crucial moves that could make a Curse set actually work such as Dragon Tail and Earthquake, or decent attacking stats to begin with, so it's a sitting duck that does nothing and is incredibly easy to take advantage of. And of course relying on Eviolite means that any Knock Off user easily preys on it.
I'm not going to debate the viability of Kalosian Goodra here, but I wanted to point out why Sliggoo in particular is worthless; it's affected pretty badly by all the usual pitfalls (overreliance on its item, passivity, lack of important moves, completely unimpressive increase in bulk if any) that make nearly every Eviolite mon (except Porygon2 I guess) not worth using over their evolution.
Yeah, Sliggoo has it's issues for sure. I chose it entirely as a meme tier pick to screw around with, and was pleasantly surprised to watch it just sit on things that would normally tear it apart. Goodra completely outclasses it in pretty much every way, but a little creativity and fun never really hurt anyone in Pokemon.
Even then, I willingly chose to NOT use a Curse set because I just want it to be a check to specially offensive Pokemon. It was slotted in to be a check to opposing Special Waters/Electrics. Not really a setup tank. Though I HAVE been tempted to try out Stockpile Unaware Clod/Quag, for additional memes.
Goodbye & Thanks
Thrown in a fire?
Hey, I'm not trying to come off as disparaging at all and I'm glad that you're experimenting and finding some success with lower tier Pokemon like Sliggoo, but I wanted to just comment on this line of reasoning. Being able to switch into and defensively check some prominent offensive threats unfortunately is not enough to make a Pokemon good or viable if that Pokemon can't do anything back to threaten what they switched in on or make progress in some other way. Compare Chansey in SM/Blissey in SS to them in SV. I remember z0mOG (one of the best SM players ever, although I'm admittedly a little biased since he's also my personal favorite player ever) saying before that Chansey is one of the most threatening Pokemon in SM because it was so difficult to safely switch in on Toxic and Seismic Toss and it made progress easily with Stealth Rock. Even though Blissey's viability in SS dwindled a little throughout the generation, it remained in OU, and its viability was greatly bolstered by being able to Teleport out to regain momentum after switching in on whatever Special Attacker that it did. However, in SV Blissey has fallen all the way down to NU, even though it's just as good as ever at sponging hits. The problem with Blissey in SV is that without Teleport, it can't regain momentum and without Toxic, it has a hard time preventing setup sweepers from abusing it. Sure, Blissey has still seen some good usage on stall teams in OU, but stall teams don't often care as much about needing to make progress since they can win games by attempting to outlast opposing teams without really threatening them back (I'm not as familiar with SV as a whole and particularly stall in SV though, so I'm not sure if stall teams have had to adapt their approach more due to the nerfing of the PP of recovery moves).I also love it how people justify it being bad because it doesn't hit hard like Tusk does, lmao. While I know and understand that the format is full of powerhouses, having a brain also helps when piloting, y'know? You don't stay in on physical threats. Ever. Power also isn't everything. This is a lesson I've had to teach many players over my time in SV. That's why I brought up the idea of this Sliggoo; It's a neat little niche fire pick that I found ends up checking some annoying things, and can even put Little Timmy Ubers spammers in their place when playing on cart.
But hey, what do I know? I can't even get reqs for tests, don't play in tournaments, and have low ranking on the ladder. I'm not allowed to have a creative opinon, unlike someone else here.
I'm not sure if you were using Sliggoo on a stall team, but if you weren't, I think that the problem with it, and other similar Pokemon that offer nice defensive calcs in a vacuum, is that they can't reliably contribute much towards wining a game. This is an extreme example, but look at Shedinja in previous generations. It completely blanked some of the most threatening Pokemon in even Ubers (of course considering you've dealt with hazards and Sand/Hail), but it has historically been rarely seen because it's very limited in terms of how effective it can be after switching in. I've personally always thought that Shedinja stall teams could be good in SM and SS and I remember Tricking winning a World Cup game with Shedinja stall back in SS, but again, stall teams can be different. Not to belabor this point further, but compare Shedinja to other defensive Pokemon like Toxapex or Specially Defensive Heatran in SM and SS. While Shedinja, Pex, and Tran can all switch into threatening attackers, so many more Pokemon can easily switch into something like Shedinja than they could Pex or Tran. The combination of Scald, Toxic, and Knock Off made Pex notoriously difficult to safely switch into, and the same can be said about Tran with Magma Storm, Toxic, Taunt, Lava Plume, and even making additional progress with Rocks. To bring this back to SV, compare Sliggoo to something like Galarian Slowking. If Slowking-G switches into something that it can't really threaten back, it can just Chilly Reception out to safely bring in a teammate that can be offensively threatening on their behalf (and Slowking can sometimes also afford to use Future Sight first, to create an even more threatening scenario for the opponent). If Sliggoo switches in and successfully takes a hit, great, but if it can't do much to threaten the opposing team back, you aren't really in a much better situation; if you need to in turn switch your Sliggoo out of whatever switches into it, without Sliggoo having done much in return, then you're back to where you started with needing to switch in Sliggoo in the first place.
Again, hopefully I didn't come off aggressively or dismissive in any way, since that wasn't at all my intent; I just decided to write this because I've seen a similar sentiment in the past espoused regarding other Pokemon that are defensively good on paper but don't function well in practice. I have seen more "random," not fully evolved Pokemon with Eviolite work in the past over their evolutions, but that was because they offered some very specific niche. The main example that I'm thinking of is that Ben Gay/Craing, the greatest team builder ever, used Trubbish as a Spikes setter at one point in SS, as seen by three of the teams in this team dump he posted (Untitled 27-29), since Trubbish retained Sticky Hold while Garbodor did not. Knock Off was rampant at that time so you could conceivably argue that having Sticky Hold was a big enough selling point to use Trubbish, especially since it ensured that Trubbish would be able to keep its Eviolite and remain relatively bulky, while also having Spikes/Toxic Spikes, Toxic, and Corrosive Gas to make progress and cripple switch-ins. However, with all of that being said, Trubbish was still obviously flawed and never was very relevant in the meta - I only really remember ima bringing one of Ben Gay's teams with it to a Smogon Tour Playoffs game, which he unfortunately lost (although Giannis is also cool).
So, to summarize what I wrote, I feel like it's cool trying to experiment with lower tier/NFE defensive Pokemon but the problem that these types of Pokemon tend to run into, and what separates them from higher tier defensive options, is that if a Pokemon can't reliably make progress or be threatening in some way after switching in, it doesn't matter much how well it can take hits.
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Oh, no. I know what you're saying completely. Sliggoo is by no means an OU threat, nor will it ever be. I'm the type that loves to theorymon and put things into practice to see what sticks, almost like what Morkal does but with a smaller brain and lesser processing power. My rain team is 100% not stall, more akin to bulky balance/bulky offense, if anything.
I'm wasn't trying to call anyone out in particular in that frustration fueled post -- it's just that since I stuck my head out from the start of SV (This is my first actual foray into trying to discuss metagame stuff, develop niche things, and try to participate/contribute in any way since starting to play Pokemon online in DP), I've literally always had people shutting me down, calling me or my choices bad, and not even entertaining an actual, civil conversation about things. Be it here, or in the UU section, even in a more private UU Discord.
I am the creative type. I use Pokemon as a creative and problem solving exercise for my dumb, autistic brain. (Yes, this is why my posts are often... Bad or fueled.) I like to try to open the door to discussing off-color and things that are generally seen as less competitive/not viable. (Sliggoo, Bisharp, Skill Link CopiumCross, etc.) It feels bad to try and open the door, only to have people slam it shut while others like Morkal get praised like a God amonst men (and women) when he takes something like Delelelewoooop and posts about it. ...Of course it doesn't help that I don't have a squad behind me for theorymonning, nor do I make a three page essay going over checks, sets, roles, etc.
Um idk if i’m just bitching too much and i just need to get better. But hazard stacking + gambit is really fucking annoying to deal with.
with, , 
and the biggest offender of them all 
i feel like spikes stacking has been easier than before.
And thanks to gold
the methods of maintaning one’s hazards is stupid easy.
**or just blazing fast offensive pressure but that’s been there since the beginning of time**
Anyways, since the beginning of the generation the top mon has always tusk for its ability to check just about every physical attacker and provide hazard relief since gold can’t switch in freely. However, in this new meta game i feel like it’s been hard to get rid of the hazards AND check gambit.
Tbh tusk has always been really good at doing the dirty work. knock off, eq, spin, rocks you name it…. it’s got it all and it can just be the perfect glue pokémon that lets your team function. However w all these new pokémon like the kanto birds
, simply existing makes it harder for tusk to click simple moves like knock or spin without having the user shit their pants. Not to mention the evolution of gambit where people have figure out how to really milk gambit of its tera in specific situation to blow by its #1 check tusk once it’s recived the slightest bit of chip.
Which brings me back to tusk…… I just feel like I’m constantly in a pick your poison situation.
it’s either
A. i let my tusk do the dirty work and get bowled over by gambit
or
B. i try to preserve my tusk to help check gambit and position myself for a win but get chipped by hazards spam bc they’re so easy to set up.
Like yes i enough to understand that u basically need like 2 other mons + tusk to deal w a gambit. but it still doesn’t change the fact that it’s just frustrating position to be in.
So now, any time i don’t run a crazy fast HO team or a super fast offensive team. i feel like i need to run an Ace or a maus to help.. (or just slap boots on everything). so yeah….. team building and playing has just been really frustrating these days.
But maybe this is just a me thing…. but do lmk if i blatantly missed something cus this is more of a thought i had in my mind.
with
, , and the biggest offender of them all i feel like spikes stacking has been easier than before.And thanks to gold
the methods of maintaning one’s hazards is stupid easy.**or just blazing fast offensive pressure but that’s been there since the beginning of time**
Anyways, since the beginning of the generation the top mon has always tusk for its ability to check just about every physical attacker and provide hazard relief since gold can’t switch in freely. However, in this new meta game i feel like it’s been hard to get rid of the hazards AND check gambit.
Tbh tusk has always been really good at doing the dirty work. knock off, eq, spin, rocks you name it…. it’s got it all and it can just be the perfect glue pokémon that lets your team function. However w all these new pokémon like the kanto birds
, simply existing makes it harder for tusk to click simple moves like knock or spin without having the user shit their pants. Not to mention the evolution of gambit where people have figure out how to really milk gambit of its tera in specific situation to blow by its #1 check tusk once it’s recived the slightest bit of chip.Which brings me back to tusk…… I just feel like I’m constantly in a pick your poison situation.
it’s either
A. i let my tusk do the dirty work and get bowled over by gambit
or
B. i try to preserve my tusk to help check gambit and position myself for a win but get chipped by hazards spam bc they’re so easy to set up.
Like yes i enough to understand that u basically need like 2 other mons + tusk to deal w a gambit. but it still doesn’t change the fact that it’s just frustrating position to be in.
So now, any time i don’t run a crazy fast HO team or a super fast offensive team. i feel like i need to run an Ace or a maus to help.. (or just slap boots on everything). so yeah….. team building and playing has just been really frustrating these days.
But maybe this is just a me thing…. but do lmk if i blatantly missed something cus this is more of a thought i had in my mind.
I know how this pretty much is. I'm lucky in a sense to be so used to running into Dengo with my serious team that anything else can... Usually play around hazard stacking + Dengo. However, I do agree that Gambit can be a major annoyance.Um idk if i’m just bitching too much and i just need to get better. But hazard stacking + gambit is really fucking annoying to deal with.
with
And thanks to gold
**or just blazing fast offensive pressure but that’s been there since the beginning of time**
Anyways, since the beginning of the generation the top mon has always tusk for its ability to check just about every physical attacker and provide hazard relief since gold can’t switch in freely. However, in this new meta game i feel like it’s been hard to get rid of the hazards AND check gambit.
Tbh tusk has always been really good at doing the dirty work. knock off, eq, spin, rocks you name it…. it’s got it all and it can just be the perfect glue pokémon that lets your team function. However w all these new pokémon like the kanto birds
Which brings me back to tusk…… I just feel like I’m constantly in a pick your poison situation.
it’s either
A. i let my tusk do the dirty work and get bowled over by gambit
or
B. i try to preserve my tusk to help check gambit and position myself for a win but get chipped by hazards spam bc they’re so easy to set up.
Like yes i enough to understand that u basically need like 2 other mons + tusk to deal w a gambit. but it still doesn’t change the fact that it’s just frustrating position to be in.
So now, any time i don’t run a crazy fast HO team or a super fast offensive team. i feel like i need to run an Ace or a maus to help.. (or just slap boots on everything). so yeah….. team building and playing has just been really frustrating these days.
But maybe this is just a me thing…. but do lmk if i blatantly missed something cus this is more of a thought i had in my mind.
Manual Spikes setters (Gren, Meow, Ting-Lu, etc.) can be soft stopped by Hat/Espie and their Magic Bounce, or Taunt. But Hamurott is a much more difficult Pokemon to prevent Spikes from going up/stacking due to there being no Dark immunities. I find the best way to deal with Hamurott is to just plow through it and deal with the hazards at an easier time. Call me wild for this one, but bulky utility Tsareena can make Hamurott very, very sad. With Tera Fairy, you get mildly chunked from Ceaseless Edge (252 Atk Sharpness Samurott-Hisui Ceaseless Edge vs. 244 HP / 12 Def Tera Fairy Tsareena: 70-83 (20.2 - 23.9%) -- guaranteed 5HKO), and can threaten it with Seed Bomb/Power Whip + Spin. (252+ Atk Tera Fairy Tsareena Seed Bomb vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Samurott-Hisui: 326-386 (101.5 - 120.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO)
Other than that, really, it's about either trying to scare it out or deleting it and dealing with the hazards after it's gone. I usually take the latter, since Corviknight can actually ruin its Sash with Rocky Helmet and then return the damage via Body Press.
252 Atk Sharpness Samurott-Hisui Ceaseless Edge vs. 244 HP / 252+ Def Corviknight: 97-115 (24.3 - 28.8%) -- 99.4% chance to 4HKO
252+ Def Corviknight Body Press vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Samurott-Hisui: 200-236 (62.3 - 73.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
If I smell a Dengo coming in after I Body Press, or even if I want a safe switch if the Hamurott stays in, I'll just click U-Turn and make whatever play is necessary.
As for the birds, just gotta take them as they come. I've been a Gastro stan this whole generation, and Gastro doesn't give two flying fecks about Zapdos nor Moltres.
Ting-Lu + Pult + Ghold is a really OP core vs teams that have no hazard control or only rely on Spin. Samur-H is a bit more of a mixed bag IMO. It is very strong vs Hat, but I don't think it does that well vs Tusk. You need to rely on Hydro to make progress vs that, but Tusk has the Speed advantage + CC for the OHKO. That being said, Samur-H has a lot of good tools like Taunt letting it anti-lead mons like Ting-Lu easily.Um idk if i’m just bitching too much and i just need to get better. But hazard stacking + gambit is really fucking annoying to deal with.
with
And thanks to gold
**or just blazing fast offensive pressure but that’s been there since the beginning of time**
Anyways, since the beginning of the generation the top mon has always tusk for its ability to check just about every physical attacker and provide hazard relief since gold can’t switch in freely. However, in this new meta game i feel like it’s been hard to get rid of the hazards AND check gambit.
Tbh tusk has always been really good at doing the dirty work. knock off, eq, spin, rocks you name it…. it’s got it all and it can just be the perfect glue pokémon that lets your team function. However w all these new pokémon like the kanto birds
Which brings me back to tusk…… I just feel like I’m constantly in a pick your poison situation.
it’s either
A. i let my tusk do the dirty work and get bowled over by gambit
or
B. i try to preserve my tusk to help check gambit and position myself for a win but get chipped by hazards spam bc they’re so easy to set up.
Like yes i enough to understand that u basically need like 2 other mons + tusk to deal w a gambit. but it still doesn’t change the fact that it’s just frustrating position to be in.
So now, any time i don’t run a crazy fast HO team or a super fast offensive team. i feel like i need to run an Ace or a maus to help.. (or just slap boots on everything). so yeah….. team building and playing has just been really frustrating these days.
But maybe this is just a me thing…. but do lmk if i blatantly missed something cus this is more of a thought i had in my mind.
Dealing w/ Gambit kinda forces Tusk + Gambit on most teams. However, as you stated, both probably hate taking Spikes damage the most, letting Gambit go sicko mode on a Spikes stacking team. I do agree that Cinder is a pretty good pick vs Gambit + Hazards since Court Change gives good flexibility & it has Wisp to put gambit in a bad position. Paired w/ Encore Valiant and itcan kinda work as an Alternative means of checking Gambit compared to running Tusk + Gambit.
While hazard stack is kinda OP, I think it is kinda necessary since it is extremely strong vs other annoying offensive archetypes like Screens & Gambit. We need Defog to come back in the DLCs.
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