Pet Mod [Gen 1] Burgundy Version - Slate 6: Back to Basics

[Glubbfubb]

Nobody uses any of these moves because Crunch EQ Twave is all the coverage it needs, and it’s not walled by Eggy or Rhydon

Another proposition i have is reworking T Tar into a physical Zapdos, a powerful sweeper that also uses its decent special stat to blast out some coverage moves, however like Zapdos, T Tar is also easily countered by certain mons, not having many tool to bust past those counters.

 

[BeeOrSomething]

Another proposition i have is reworking T Tar into a physical Zapdos, a powerful sweeper that also uses its decent special stat to blast out some coverage moves, however like Zapdos, T Tar is also easily countered by certain mons, not having many tool to bust past those counters.

what boosting move would you give ttar lol
it's not meant to be a setup sweeper, that would be too much

 

[Ema Skye]

PMPL has finished so now we're going to proceed with the (much anticipated) balancing round.

We got a lot of feedback from the last post that things should slow down and nerf things in batches. So we're going to nerf things in batches, focusing on the highest priority issues and then making adjustments to other watchlist items based on how they are affected by other nerfs.

So the first nerf round is as follows:

Sleep: 2-4 turns
There was a lot of feedback during the tournament about the dominance of paralysis, a desire to include sleep as a status, and everything surrounding Jungle Healing. This adjustment covers all three of these, removing some of the uncompetitive nature of RBY sleep while still making it worthwhile as an option instead of paralysis. This also negates the Jungle Healing Eggy mirror match issues.

Tyranitar: -Thunder Wave
This had to happen due to Tyranitar's insane trade rate. Other things may be on the table if this isn't enough but it probably will be.

Focus Energy: x2 crit rate (instead of 4x crit rate)
This unbans the move that we banned during the tournament, makes it still a worthwhile option for its users (Talonflame and Jolteon) without giving them an auto win button after one turn of setup.

Tagging Yoshiblaze for implementation

 

[RAALightning]

I am looking forward to the new changes, especially more consistent sleep turns. It will be interesting to see if Jungle Healing is still an issue after the changes as well!

 

[Glubbfubb]

These changes are what the meta needs to be more balanced. From what I am gathering RBY is a very delocate metagame to break, if Lapras in UU is anything to go by. So cutting back on the broken stuff is nice. Now what are we doing next?

 

[gastlies]

Ema is on a well-deserved break so I'll be taking over for this next slate!

After a long time away from the island, you noticed something shocking upon your return. Not only do some of the Pokemon look different, but others have never been seen on the island before. You quickly rush to the lab, ready to immediately get to work and tell the professor about your new discoveries.

Slate 6: Back to Basics
​

This slate is essentially a combination of our first two slates. You can submit either a current RBY Pokemon to be buffed, or you can submit a Pokemon from a later generation and incorporate it into RBY. Some notes:

• You cannot buff a Pokemon that's been buffed previously, or any of the new additions. You also cannot buff any of the Pokemon that are already good in RBY. This means the following are not allowed to be changed: Tauros, Snorlax, Chansey, Persian, Starmie, Alakazam, Exeggutor, Slowbro, Hypno, Zapdos, Rhydon, Jolteon, Cloyster, Gengar, Jynx, Dragonite, Aerodactyl, Machamp, Onix, Beedrill, Flareon, Dewgong, Ninetales, Venomoth​
• You can only buff fully-evolved Pokemon. Keep in mind Seadra and Pinisr are now NFEs due to Kingdra and Plucks​
• Toxic, Bide, Substitute, Rage, Mimic and Rest are all universal moves and should be added to any mon.​
• Stay on the side of caution when it comes to physical attackers. They don't have a chansey to wall them forever like special attackers, so even if a mon doesn't seem broken it might be broken​
• I will frown upon Rock-types being added since three Rock-types have already been subbed, and they're all really good, so we don't need more​
• Since sleep is buffed again, be cautious when it comes to fast sleepers​
• Recover + Amnesia/Swords Dance is broken 90% of the time so try to avoid this combination unless you have a really good way of balancing it.​

You can sub a total of 4 mons this slate. They can be 4 mons from later gens, 4 buffs, or anything in between. Submission deadline TBD

Templates

For Buffs

:pokemonname:
[b]Stats:[/b] 
[b]Typing:[/b] 
[b]Movepool Changes:[/b] 
[b]Description:[/b]

For New Mons

:pokemonname:
[b]Stats:[/b] 
[b]Typing:[/b] 
[b]Movepool:[/b] [hide=list of moves]
[/hide]
[b]Description:[/b]

Have fun with this slate! And let your imagination run wild!

 

[eshe0]

Resub time with a few changes to fit the slate the one I deem interesting:


Breloom
Stats: 60/130/80/60/70 BST: 400/460
Typing: Grass/Fighting
Movepool:

list of moves

Absorb, Bide, Body Slam, Counter, Cut, Dig, Double Team, Double-Edge, Flash, Growth, Headbutt, Hyper Beam, Leech Seed, Low Kick, Mega Drain, Mega Kick, Mega Punch, Mimic, Poison Powder, Rage, Rest, Rock Slide, Seismic Toss, Solar Beam, Spore, Strength, Stun Spore, Substitute, Swift, Tackle, Take Down, Thunder Punch, Toxic, Focus Punch

Description: Sleep is not useless, it's not even the fastest sleeper, it dies to most special hits, it'd be strong , prolly not overwhelming. It would make thematic sense to give this thing jungle healing, but I thinkmost peoplesimply don't like the move at all and that it would give loom an unnecessary use I don't want it to have either way


Torterra
Stats: 95/109/105/85/56 BST: 450/535
Typing: Grass/Ground
Movepool:

list of moves

Absorb, Bide, Bite, Body Slam, Crunch, Cut, Double Team, Double-Edge, Earthquake, Flash, Frenzy Plant, Growth, Headbutt, Hyper Beam, Jungle Healing, Leech Seed, Mega Drain, Mimic, Razor Leaf, Reflect, Rest, Roar, Rock Slide, Solar Beam, Strength, Substitute, Tackle, Thrash, Toxic, Withdraw

Description: We should just spam grounds in the tier, it's non-ironically positive, also breloom and torterra have the only type combination to resist rock and ground at the same time


Flygon
Stats: 80/100/80/80/100 BST: 440/520
Typing: Ground/Dragon
Movepool:

list of moves

Bide, Bite, Body Slam, Crunch, Dig, Draco Meteor, Dragonbreath, Double Team, Double-Edge, Earthquake, Fire Blast, Fire Punch, Fissure, Flamethrower, Fly, Focus Energy, Gust, Headbutt, Hyper Beam, Mega Kick, Mega Punch, Mimic, Quick Attack, Rest, Rock Slide, Sand Attack, Sonic Boom, Strength, Substitute, Supersonic, Swift, Thunder Punch, Toxic

Description: Another ground type, this is positive and healthy for the meta, just like eating your veggies

 

[gastlies]

Stats: 110/95/73/90/65
Typing: Water/Ground
Movepool:

list of moves

Bide, Blizzard, Body Slam, Double Team, Double-Edge, Earthquake, Fissure, Headbutt, Hydro Pump, Hyper Beam, Ice Beam, Mimic, Rage, Rest, Rock Slide, Strength, Substitute, Surf, Swift, Take Down, Thrash, Toxic, Water Gun, Waterfall

Description: The three new rock-types are currently running around the tier with very few checks. Whiscash is here to save the day! With a water/ground typing that all three rock-types hate fighting. Its physical bulk is just enough to fend off the Rocks, without being stupidly bulky. For example, it still dies to slam + slam + beam from tauros so the bulk isn't game-breaking.


Stats: 95/70/73/85/50 (-10 SPE)
Typing: Normal
Movepool Changes: +Soft-Boiled, -Amnesia, -Counter
Description: Clefable is trying to replicate a sort of physical chansey. It's not as specially bulky, but it has an actual attack stat, as well as better physical bulk (Normal STAB with clef's attack stat is about as strong as STABless Dragonite). Counter is removed because the recovery with softboiled could make Clefable dangerous. Amnesia is removed for... obvious reasons. Speed is also lowered so Exeggutor outspeeds it


Stats: 90/95/95/85/100 (+10 ATK, +15 SPC, +30 SPE)
Typing: Water/Fighting
Movepool Changes: -Lovely Kiss
Description: Poliwrath is given nice buffs to its offensive stats. It crucially outspeeds Jynx meaning it might see use as a lead, and its higher stats mean it can be more devastating with Amnesia. Lovely Kiss was removed to ensure that Poliwrath doesn't outclass Jynx completely, as it now has to rely on the less accurate Hypnosis for sleep. Also good water/fighting mon means the annoying rock-types become worse which is always good. Despite these buffs though, Poliwrath still suffers from being walled completely by Starmie.


Stats: 75/95/145/45/95
Typing: Ground/Flying
Movepool:

list of moves

Agility, Counter, Cut, Dig, Double Team, Double-Edge, Dream Eater, Earthquake, Explosion, Guillotine, Harden, Headbutt, Hyper Beam, Mimic, Poison Sting, Quick Attack, Razor Wind, Rest, Rock Slide, Sand Attack, Screech, Sky Attack, Slash, Strength, Substitute, Swift, Toxic, Wing Attack

Description: Great physical wall, but terrible special bulk. Dies to Tauros Blizzard, and even Starmie's surf is a roll.

 

[PalpitoadChamp]

Stats: 130/85/80/95/60
Typing: Ice
Movepool: Original Movepool +Haze, Sparkling Aria
Description: Electric/Ice Lapras is too strong so here's pure Ice Lapras. Looses the Water-type but gains Sparkling Aria as a cool move.


Stats: 80/105/65/100/70
Typing: Grass
Movepool: Original Movepool
Description: Victreebel is a cool fellow but its Poison-type really hurts it. Loosing the Poison-type fixes its main issues.


Stats: 100/100/80/60/50
Typing: Ice/Ground
Movepool: Bide, Bite, Blizzard, Body Slam, Defense Curl, Dig, Double Team, Double-Edge, Earthquake, Fissure, Fury Attack, Headbutt, Horn Attack, Hyper Beam, Ice Beam, Light Screen, Mimic, Mist, Peck, Rage, Reflect, Rest, Roar, Rock Slide, Strength, Substitute, Tackle, Take Down, Thrash, Toxic
Description: Tanky Ground-type with an interesting typing in Ice to deal with mons like Aero or Zapdos. Also Amnesia has been removed so it isn't crazy broken.

 

[Neosonic97]

Resubbing this one:

Pokemon: Latias
Stats: 70/70/80/110/110 [BST: 430/535.] (Special is Latias' Special Attack from later generations. All other stats are reduced by 10 except Speed.)
Typing: Dragon/Psychic
Movepool: Blizzard, Thunderbolt, Psychic, Recover, Light Screen, Reflect, Toxic, Conversion, Earthquake, Double Team, Hyper Beam, Ice Beam, Thunder, Mimic, Earthquake, Rest, Roar, Strength, Substitute, Dragon Rage, Growl, Agility, Bide, Rage, Thunder Wave, Conversion, Growl, Universals

Description: Latias can be considered a slower alternative to Alakazam, but a much bulkier one, not to mention one with a usable physical movepool. Latias' Dragon-typing is also a double-edged sword: while Latias does gain some nice resistances to Water, Grass and Electric, she also gains a crippling Ice weakness, which can hinder her in comparison to Alakazam when faced with the Blizzards that tend to fly around everywhere. What Latias does have going for her is a wide, varied movepool that lets her generally threaten more of the metagame than Alakazam: Thunderbolt mauls Slowbro and Starmie, Blizzard hamstrings Dragonite and opposing Latias (as well as Aerodactyl, Beedrill and Zapdos), Surf dumpsters the rocks, Psychic is Psychic, and so on. She even gets access to some physical moves like Earthquake, just in case Chansey got any funny ideas about trying to wall her, though Latias can't really handle Snorlax very well. She can, however, also run a nasty defensive set with Recover, Light Screen, Reflect, and Toxic, and even potentially make usage of the rare Conversion to alter her type, in case it wants to take advantage of its auxillary options and alter her weaknesses. It certainly has the bulk to make usage of the move, unlike Porygon. Latias' main issue is not doing much of note to Snorlax, and Tauros is a risky matchup for her (though it is also a risky matchup for the Tauros, as Tauros does not appreciate eating a possible Special drop from Psychic or a freeze from Blizzard).

And just to come full circle I'll resub the very first one I made too:

Pokemon: Charizard
Stats: 70/100/70/109/100 [BST: 439/548] (Special is now Charizard's Special Attack from later gens. Attack has been boosted to base 100, 4 points below Mega Charizard Y's base 104. Reduced HP and Defense slightly).
Typing: Fire/Dragon
Movepool Changes: +Thunder Punch (Can you believe Charizard doesn't actually get it in Gen 2?)

Description: To differentiate itself from the notably bulkier and far more specially powerful Moltres, Charizard gets an Anti-water coverage option in Thunder Punch (taken from later generations) and gains an increase to its attack from its Mega Y form (Megazard Y does actually have higher attack than base Charizard). This affords Charizard a unique niche over Moltres, in that Charizard can threaten targets on both sides of the attacking spectrum- in a way, reflective of the duality of Charizard's Mega Evolutions from Gen 6. The higher attack makes Charizard actually able to leave a dent in Rhydon and Golem, or even threaten to take them out if it manages to set a Swords Dance up before they switch in, while the higher special attack means even the Mighty Tauros is not a safe switch-in, almost always being 2HKO'd by Fire Blast. With that being said, Charizard is stuffed by Slowbro, as even Thunder Punch does a measly 34-40% even before Slowbro gets an Amnesia up, while Charizard's considerable special does not protect it from having a high chance of being 2HKO'd by Surf, making using Charizard carelessly an extremely bad idea. Starmie is also an incredibly bad matchup for Charizard, as Charizard still cannot 2HKO even with Thunder Punch without a crit, and will likely eat Thunder Wave paralysis as a result, crippling the main thing that makes Charizard so deadly: its speed. Ultimately, the main thing that simultaneously makes Charizard so difficult to check, also gives it an issue: It suffers from 4MSS, believe it or not. It wants all of Fire Blast, Blast Burn, Earthquake, Hyper Beam, Swords Dance, Thunder Punch and Slash, but it can only fit 4 of these at once. If it lacks Earthquake, it can't do anything to Rhydon/Golem. If it lacks Thunder Punch, Slowbro and Starmie kill it with ease. No Fire Blast means Tauros and Zapdos maul you. Blast Burn hits even harder than Fire Blast, it needs Swords Dance alongside EQ to actually beat the rocks, Slash is nice for pesky defense boosters like Reflect Alakazam and Chansey, and Hyper Beam is Hyper Beam. It does lose a tiny bit of bulk, though, to further emphasise the "fast and deadly, but frail" spread it is supposed to have in comparison to its brethren Venusaur and Blastoise.

In a few ways, this updated Charizard could be considered a hybrid of Tauros and Moltres, featuring advantages and disadvantages compared to the points of reference. Compared to Tauros, Charizard has a higher Special and access to Slash and Swords Dance, but it's slower, lacks STAB on Normal moves, mandating setup for physical builds compared to Tauros who's threatening right out of the gate (to say nothing about the fact that, since this is Gen 1, Pure Normal is a better typing than Fire/Dragon) and has much worse physical bulk. Compared to Moltres, Charizard's Special is lower and it's frailer, but it makes up for it with higher speed and attack, a usable physical movepool, and the crucial additional coverage that Thunder Punch provides, allowing Charizard to at least dent the Water-types that would otherwise give Moltres no end of trouble.

 

[eshe0]

A few people on the discord server have been asking the council members for their opinions on their submissions as they want to submitt mons that would help balance the tier. Fortunately, PMPL II gave good insight of what the mod is lacking right now, I have taken the liberty to talk a bit about how the pmpl teambuilding worked:

Firstly, there were three mandatory pokemon in every single scenario: Tauros, Starmie (who barely manages to hold the tier together) and Tyranitar (it has been nerfed since, but it is still extremely solid at worse). Mie and Tauros were similar to their counterparts in other rby tiers, slam, beam, eq, blizz on tauros, but mie liked electric and water even more (water to hit ttar and potentially aero), blizz was still good for dragonite. On the other hand, Tyranitar was as oppressive as unpredictable, it could run almost any coverage alongside t wave (which it already lost) and it worked just fine. Paralysis spam was the best teamstyle by far and most games came down to mirrors in which the faster mon who avoided para would win, fortunately buffing sleep again has solved this particular issue, even allowing eggy to run jungle healing again; in spite of this other issues remained unsolved, since they came down to how the new additions impacted the mete and powercrept it a bit too much (yes, mostly ttar). The main issue pmpl players ran in the teambuilder was the lack of good ground types, rhydon was mostly outclassed by ttar, and running both stacked several weaknesses, this was also benefitial for jolteon and zapdos. So the first thing that the tier needs by far is defensive walls that can tank ttar for the most part and more specifically defensive ground types. Another complain comonly seen during the pl was that lax was mostly outclassed by plucks and chansey was not very good, since the tier received an influx of strong physical attackers that once setup could go mad (plucks, armaldo, machamp with focus punch...), so if anything special attackers could also fill in these niches by keeping in check their slower physical attacking counterparts while still not being overwhelming (for example, a fire water type would be a fire who destroys the rocks, and offensivel that would be oppresive).

Other than this sleep is back in the game, many mons get new sleep options from tradebacks, and I believe it can be an interesting ground to play around with.

TLDR: defensive mons, ground mons, special attackers and sleep users could add something interesting to the tier, as always tryto balance the submissions and avoid powercreeping the tier any more than it already is, we don't want to repeat the ttar experience, I hope this can be useful to anyone interested in learning burgundy.

 

[RAALightning]

Arcanine
Stats: 90/80/80/110/81
Typing: Fire/Electric
Movepool: +Thunderbolt, Thunder, Earthquake
Description: Weighing in is Arcanine with flashy new make over! By swapping its attack and special and earning its lightning stripes with a new typing, our good floofy boy can pose a threat to Exeggutor and Zapdos, two pokemon that are really needing another mon to keep them on their toes. Its also dropped in speed to balance its newly aquired bulk and power, but keeping it just fast enough to deal with pesky dragonites.

Venusaur
Stats: 80/82/83/100/80
Typing: Grass
Movepool: +Stun Spore
Description: With Jungle Healing and Frenzy Plant, our girl doesn't need much to thrive. Removing the ankle weight that is Venusaur's poison typing will allow the plant to stand out from Victreebel and put her cool new tools to good use! Stun spore gives it a little extra utility although its fighting for the fourth slot, so no big change here. I also believe more grass types will lead to a healthier, greener, and more diverse tier, so while this doesn't look like much, I hope you consider cause this change is bigger than you think! :3

 

[Teh]

Muk

Stats: 115 (+10) / 105 / 90 (+15) / 85 (+20) / 25 (-25)
Typing: Poison
Movepool: +Recover +Stun Spore

Adding another Recover user is already pretty risky, adding something with good defensive stats even more so. I still think this is balanced. It's got perfect coverage in TBolt + Ice Punch but it's Special isn't great enough to be completely unwallable. It's forced to either forego perfect coverage by replacing one of TBolt/Ice Punch with a Normal-type move or drop Stun Spore, which requires its teammates to paralyze Chansey to break through it. 25 Speed also means its outsped by the entire tier, forcing it to use Recover much more often than it would like.

 

[Glubbfubb]

Claydol
Type: Ground/Psychic
Movepool: Earthquake, Psychic, Explosion, Hyper Beam, Rock Slide, Thunder Wave, Hypnosis, Light Screen, Reflect, Barrier, Rest, Rage, Bide, Mimic, Toxic
Stats: HP: 60/Attack 70/Defense 110/Special 110/Speed 75
Role: A sidegrade to Rhydon, while Rhydon has much better physical defenses and HP, Claydol lacks a quad Water/Grass weakness as well as a Ground weakness. It also has the benefits of STAB Psychic and Explosion as a utility tool. It also help fill the role of a defensive Ground-type as the addition of a Psychic-typing gives it a valuable resistance to both Rock and Psychic on top of the Electric-type immunity.

Drampa
Type: Normal/Dragon
Movepool: Body Slam, Hyper Beam, Slash, Dragon Breath, Earthquake, Fire Blast, Thunderbolt, Thunder, Amnesia, Rest, Rage, Bide, Mimic, Toxic
Stats: HP 88/Attack 80/Defense 75/Special 111/Speed 36
Role: An Amnesia user that has the benefits of an immunity to both Body Slam and Dragon Breath paralysis, but is brought down by a bad Ice-type weakness, lack of powerful STAB, and low speed.

Chesnaut
Type: Grass/Fighting
Movepool: Frenzy Plant, Razor Leaf, Mega Drain, Submission, Low Kick, Rolling Kick, Focus Punch, Pin Missile, Body Slam, Hyper Beam, Rock Slide, Thunder Punch, Counter, Substitute, Super Fang, Rest, Rage, Bide, Mimic, Toxic
Stats: HP: 88/Attack 107/Defense 122/Special 74/Speed 65
Role: A unique mixed attacker whose access to the powerful frenzy plant makes up for the user's only decent special. The Ground, Rock, and Electric resistances, alongside good bulk let it become a great check to Tyranitar, while unique access to Super Fang and Pin Missile lets it chunk key resists like Exeggutor. However its poor speed leaves it weak to fast Psychics like Alakazam or the famed mixed attacker Zapdos.

Chesnaut vs Big 3

Chesnaut Frenzy Plant vs. Starmie: 267-314 (82.6 - 97.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Chesnaut Focus Punch vs. Tauros: 352-414 (99.7 - 117.2%) -- 97.4% chance to OHKO
Chesnaut Frenzy Plant vs. Tyranitar 267-314 (66.2 - 77.9%) -- -- guaranteed 2HKO
Chesnaut Focus Punch vs. Tyranitar : 352-414 (87.3 - 102.7%) -- 17.9% chance to OHKO

Lilligant
Type: Grass
Movepool: Razor Leaf, Mega Drain, Body Slam, Hyper Beam, Seismic Toss, Low Kick, Counter, Sleep Powder, Quiver Dance, Light Screen, Substitute, Rest, Rage, Bide, Mimic, Toxic
Stats: HP: 70/Attack 70/Defense 70 /Special 110/Speed 90
Role: A more niche pick, its main appeal is being a reasonably fast sleep user with a Ground resist and the ability both become even faster while giving some decent special attack tanking abilities thanks to Quiver Dance and Light Screen. A barren special movepool, poor physical bulk, and bad weaknesses to Ice and Flying hold it back though.

Lilligant vs Big 3

Lilligant Razor Leaf vs. Tauros on a critical hit: 155-183 (43.9 - 51.8%) -- 11.1% chance to 2HKO
Lilligant Low Kick vs. Tauros: 61-72 (17.2 - 20.3%) -- possible 5HKO
Lilligant Razor Leaf vs. Tyranitar on a critical hit: 250-294 (62 - 72.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Lilligant Razor Leaf vs. Starmie on a critical hit: 250-294 (77.3 - 91%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

[Eeveeto]

Goddamn, everyone be like: "In order to make Poison Mons viable, we should remove the Poison typing from them "

Well, I don,t agree with such aproach (to be fair, the Venusaur one does make sense in my book though), so here is my take:


Stats: 90/82/87/75/76 (No changes here)
Typing: Poison-Ground (No changes here either).
Movepool Changes: +Sludge, + Softboiled, +Amnesia, +Super Fang.
Description: So, here is the Amnesia + recovery user that was specifically recommended to not be done. However, I think this one can be balanced by 4 factors:
1. Its not Recover, just Softboiled. 16 PPs, not 32.
2. Nidoqueen Stats are not to high. Its not ridiculously bulky, not too powerful, not fast either.
3. Both STABs are physical. It does learn BoltBeam, but it still can,t 2HKO Chansey at +6 (unless crit EQ, but then you are only using 1 Special move).
4. Typing defensively is bad, except for the Electric immunity.

While not broken (in my opinion), with Softboiled + Amnesia (or even without Amnesia), Nidoqueen will still be extremely good, now fully walling Zapdos and most electrics. Fight Mons like Sneasler are also in for big trouble when fighting Nidoqueen. The extensive offensive movepool makes Nidoqueen very versatile at attacking, not always even needing Amnesia to be good.

Nidoqueen now becomes the only recovery + Super Fang user. Super Fang forces faster recovery Mons to switch in, since things like Snorlax certainly won,t be enjoying losing 50% of health and then taking repeated Earthquake. Nidoqueen has just enough bulk to not be 2HKOd by anything except STAB effective moves on the physical side. Due to Softboiled, its probably the best electric Mons counter, outside of Electabuzz and Raichu, who do have effective moves. With diverse movepool, Nidoqueen has 4 move slots syndrome but its unpredictable and hard to check for the opponent, since Super Fang is a really good move in this meta.

Stats: 81/92/77/75/85 (no changes).
Typing: Poison-Dragon
Movepool: +Sword Dance, +Sludge, +Focus Punch, +Draco Meteor, -Amnesia, -Lovely Kiss.
Description:

Nidoking on the other hand doesn,t wall Electric Mons as well as it used to. However, it now walls Fire types pretty well and requires Water Mons to use Ice Beam. With Lovely Kiss (which it already gets from tradebacks), Nidoking can abuse either Sword Dance or Focus Punch pretty well. Just like Nidoking, it has a very wide offensive movepool.


Stats: 105/105/75/100/50
Typing: Poison-Water
Movepool: +Recover, +Water Gun, +Bubblebeam, +Surf, +Hydro Pump
Description:

Muk is now a very bulky and powerful tank with recovery. Its balanced by the 3 important weaknesses it has (Ground, Psychic and Electric) but nonetheless is able to outlast the checks and wear them down. New Water typing means Muk doesn,t fear Rhydon anymore, since now it can outspeed and OHKO it. It gives resistance to Fire, Water and Ice too, meaning Muk walls Cloyster outside of Explosion and forces Lapras to run Thunderbolt. The 100 Special comes from the Special Defense that it has in future generations.


Stats: 90/90/120/85/65 (no changes).
Typing: Poison-Ghost
Movepool: +Will-o-Wisp, +Ice Beam, +Blizzard
Description:

With the Ghost typing and increased bulk, Weezing becomes another reason for Normal types to run Earthquake and for Explosion users to think twice before using the Move. Will-o-Wisp is the other new bonus, Weezing becomes the second user of it after Ninetales. Unlike Gengar, Weezing is able to use Rest due to the high physical bulk it has, while also having a stronger Explosion than Gengar. Unlike Gengar too, Weezing has actual coverage in new Ice moves, which allows it to threaten the opposition with every single status except sleep. Just like every Mon in this post, Weezing has a very wide movepool, making it a versatile threat balanced by the Poison typing handicap.

Some calcs to prove Weezing bulk:
Aerodactyl Earthquake vs. Weezing: 134-158 (34.9 - 41.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Snorlax Earthquake vs. Weezing: 137-162 (35.7 - 42.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO < Rest of moves are totally walled, outside of Amnesia.
Machamp Earthquake vs. Weezing: 154-182 (40.2 - 47.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Abomasnow Blizzard vs. Weezing: 136-160 (35.5 - 41.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Alakazam Psychic vs. Weezing: 267-314 (69.7 - 81.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO < Strongest move Weezing can take. This means, nothing OHKOs Weezing without a crit.
Plucks: Totally walled.
Tauros Earthquake vs. Weezing: 129-152 (33.6 - 39.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

 

[eshe0]

So submission review time and first post as a council member:

Stats: 110/110/73/90/65
Typing: Water/Ground
Movepool:

list of moves

Bide, Blizzard, Body Slam, Double Team, Double-Edge, Earthquake, Fissure, Headbutt, Hydro Pump, Hyper Beam, Ice Beam, Mimic, Rage, Rest, Rock Slide, Strength, Substitute, Surf, Swift, Take Down, Thrash, Toxic, Water Gun, Waterfall

Description: The three new rock-types are currently running around the tier with very few checks. Whiscash is here to save the day! With a water/ground typing that all three rock-types hate fighting. Its physical bulk is just enough to fend off the Rocks, without being stupidly bulky. For example, it still dies to slam + slam + beam from tauros so the bulk isn't game-breaking.


Stats: 95/70/73/85/50 (-10 SPE)
Typing: Normal
Movepool Changes: +Soft-Boiled, -Amnesia, -Counter
Description: Clefable is trying to replicate a sort of physical chansey. It's not as specially bulky, but it has an actual attack stat, as well as better physical bulk (Normal STAB with clef's attack stat is about as strong as STABless Dragonite). Counter is removed because the recovery with softboiled could make Clefable dangerous. Amnesia is removed for... obvious reasons. Speed is also lowered so Exeggutor outspeeds it


Stats: 90/95/95/85/100 (+10 ATK, +15 SPC, +30 SPE)
Typing: Water/Fighting
Movepool Changes: -Lovely Kiss
Description: Poliwrath is given nice buffs to its offensive stats. It crucially outspeeds Jynx meaning it might see use as a lead, and its higher stats mean it can be more devastating with Amnesia. Lovely Kiss was removed to ensure that Poliwrath doesn't outclass Jynx completely, as it now has to rely on the less accurate Hypnosis for sleep. Also good water/fighting mon means the annoying rock-types become worse which is always good. Despite these buffs though, Poliwrath still suffers from being walled completely by Starmie.


Stats: 75/95/145/45/95
Typing: Ground/Flying
Movepool:

list of moves

Agility, Counter, Cut, Dig, Double Team, Double-Edge, Dream Eater, Earthquake, Explosion, Guillotine, Harden, Headbutt, Hyper Beam, Mimic, Poison Sting, Quick Attack, Razor Wind, Rest, Rock Slide, Sand Attack, Screech, Sky Attack, Slash, Strength, Substitute, Swift, Toxic, Wing Attack

Description: Great physical wall, but terrible special bulk. Dies to Tauros Blizzard, and even Starmie's surf is a roll.

The cash: *clapping and saluting discord emojis*

Clef: Good, prolly some of what the meta needs

Poliwrath: I can only think of lovely kiss subpunch, but it's also the only thing it can run if it doesn't run amnesia.

Gliscor: *more claps*

Stats: 130/85/80/95/60
Typing: Ice
Movepool: Original Movepool +Haze, Sparkling Aria
Description: Electric/Ice Lapras is too strong so here's pure Ice Lapras. Looses the Water-type but gains Sparkling Aria as a cool move.


Stats: 80/105/65/100/70
Typing: Grass
Movepool: Original Movepool
Description: Victreebel is a cool fellow but its Poison-type really hurts it. Loosing the Poison-type fixes its main issues.


Stats: 110/130/80/70/80
Typing: Ice/Ground
Movepool: Bide, Bite, Blizzard, Body Slam, Defense Curl, Dig, Double Team, Double-Edge, Earthquake, Fissure, Fury Attack, Headbutt, Horn Attack, Hyper Beam, Ice Beam, Light Screen, Mimic, Mist, Peck, Rage, Reflect, Rest, Roar, Rock Slide, Strength, Substitute, Tackle, Take Down, Thrash, Toxic
Description: Tanky Ground-type with an interesting typing in Ice to deal with mons like Aero or Zapdos.

Lapras: I think a pure ice is pretty cool, it gets rid of an electric weakness which is big for burg, more distribution of sparkling aria is also interesting

Vic: *more claps*

Mamo: I know I told you an Ice/Ground type would be interesting, but this thing has too high of stats, if you sub piloswine without amnesia this should be fine

Ironically, I'm about to knock the Big Three and Rhydon down a notch. Not by outclassing them, but by introducing a meta assassin whose whole job is to beat them. So with that in mind...

This just in, breaking news: Local area ape literally too angry to die.

Pokemon: Annihilape
Stats: 110/115/80/70/90 [BST:465/535] (Special is average of Special Attack and Special Defense from Gen 9)
Typing: Ghost/Fighting
Movepool: Primeape's moveset + Earthquake (Note: Primeape doesn't get Earthquake until Gen 3. Thus it doesn't have it in this metagame).

Description: Ghost and Fighting are nominally two of the worst types in the game. The former, due to having no good moves, and the latter, due to being weak to Psychic, the second-best type in the game. However, Annihilape makes these two typings work together in a way that truly lets both shine, by being the single best Pokemon ever at rolling the faces of Tauros, Chansey, Snorlax and Rhydon. Their STAB completely fails against Annihilape's Ghost-typing, and even if you stick with Low Kick, Annihilape will still on average beat any member of the big three in a damage race (It's somewhat close against Tauros and Snorlax, but Chansey stands no chance outside of a lucky Ice Beam freeze). It can also leave a dent in other threats through coverage moves like the Elemental Punches, but really, if you're using Annihilape, it's because you hate the bull, blob and... bear? whatever the hell Snorlax is supposed to be.

Regardless, Annihilape also has very clear weaknesses- or one in particular anyway. Due to the way Gen 1 is coded, Annihilape has to flee screaming at the sight of any incoming Psychic-type, given how its stabs are similarly ineffective against Psychics, and it doesn't fare too well against 'mons like Zapdos either.

Also resubbing this one:

Pokemon: Latias
Stats: 70/70/80/120/110 [BST: 450/570.] (Special is the average of Latias' special stats from later gens. HP and physical stats are reduced by 10)
Typing: Dragon/Psychic
Movepool: Blizzard, Thunderbolt, Psychic, Recover, Light Screen, Reflect, Toxic, Conversion, Earthquake, Double Team, Hyper Beam, Ice Beam, Thunder, Mimic, Earthquake, Rest, Roar, Strength, Substitute, Dragon Rage, Growl, Agility, Bide, Rage, Thunder Wave, Mist Ball, Draco Meteor, Conversion, Growl, Universals, Draco Meteor

Description: Latias can be considered a slower alternative to Alakazam, but a much bulkier one, not to mention one with a usable physical movepool. Latias' Dragon-typing is also a double-edged sword: while Latias does gain some nice resistances to Water, Grass and Electric, she also gains a crippling Ice weakness, which can hinder her in comparison to Alakazam when faced with the Blizzards that tend to fly around everywhere. What Latias does have going for her is a wide, varied movepool that lets her generally threaten more of the metagame than Alakazam: Thunderbolt mauls Slowbro and Starmie, Blizzard hamstrings Dragonite and opposing Latias (as well as Aerodactyl, Beedrill and Zapdos), Surf dumpsters the rocks, Psychic is Psychic, Draco Meteor is a horrendously powerful neutral hit on everything (except for opposing Dragon-types, who get obliterated by it), and so on. She even gets access to some physical moves like Earthquake, just in case Chansey got any funny ideas about trying to wall her, though Latias can't really handle Snorlax very well. She can, however, also run a nasty defensive set with Recover, Light Screen, Reflect, and Toxic, and even potentially make usage of the rare Conversion to alter her type, in case it wants to take advantage of its auxillary options and alter her weaknesses. It certainly has the bulk to make usage of the move, unlike Porygon. Latias' main issue is not doing much of note to Snorlax, and Tauros is a risky matchup for her (though it is also a risky matchup for the Tauros, as the two speed tie, and Tauros does not appreciate eating a possible Special drop from Psychic/Mist Ball or a freeze from Blizzard).

And just to come full circle I'll resub the very first one I made too:

Pokemon: Charizard
Stats: 70/100/70/109/100 [BST: 449/558] (Special is now Charizard's Special Attack from later gens. Attack has been boosted to base 100, 4 points below Mega Charizard Y's base 104. Reduced HP and Defense slightly).
Typing: Fire/Flying
Movepool Changes: +Thunder Punch (Can you believe Charizard doesn't actually get it in Gen 2?)

Description: To differentiate itself from the notably bulkier and far more specially powerful Moltres, Charizard gets an Anti-water coverage option in Thunder Punch (taken from later generations) and gains an increase to its attack from its Mega Y form (Megazard Y does actually have higher attack than base Charizard). This affords Charizard a unique niche over Moltres, in that Charizard can threaten targets on both sides of the attacking spectrum- in a way, reflective of the duality of Charizard's Mega Evolutions from Gen 6. The higher attack makes Charizard actually able to leave a dent in Rhydon and Golem, or even threaten to take them out if it manages to set a Swords Dance up before they switch in, while the higher special attack means even the Mighty Tauros is not a safe switch-in, almost always being 2HKO'd by Fire Blast. With that being said, Charizard is stuffed by Slowbro, as even Thunder Punch does a measly 34-40% even before Slowbro gets an Amnesia up, while Charizard's considerable special does not protect it from having a high chance of being 2HKO'd by Surf, making using Charizard carelessly an extremely bad idea. Starmie is also an incredibly bad matchup for Charizard, as Charizard still cannot 2HKO even with Thunder Punch without a crit, and will likely eat Thunder Wave paralysis as a result, crippling the main thing that makes Charizard so deadly: its speed. Ultimately, the main thing that simultaneously makes Charizard so difficult to check, also gives it an issue: It suffers from 4MSS, believe it or not. It wants all of Fire Blast, Blast Burn, Earthquake, Hyper Beam, Swords Dance, Thunder Punch and Slash, but it can only fit 4 of these at once. If it lacks Earthquake, it can't do anything to Rhydon/Golem. If it lacks Thunder Punch, Slowbro and Starmie kill it with ease. No Fire Blast means Tauros and Zapdos maul you. Blast Burn hits even harder than Fire Blast, it needs Swords Dance alongside EQ to actually beat the rocks, Slash is nice for pesky defense boosters like Reflect Alakazam and Chansey, and Hyper Beam is Hyper Beam. It does lose a tiny bit of bulk, though, to further emphasise the "fast and deadly, but frail" spread it is supposed to have in comparison to its brethren Venusaur and Blastoise.

In a few ways, this updated Charizard could be considered a hybrid of Tauros and Moltres, featuring advantages and disadvantages compared to the points of reference. Compared to Tauros, Charizard has a higher Special and access to Slash and Swords Dance, but it's slower, lacks STAB on Normal moves, mandating setup for physical builds compared to Tauros who's threatening right out of the gate (to say nothing about the fact that, since this is Gen 1, Pure Normal is a much better typing than Fire/Flying) and has much worse physical bulk. Compared to Moltres, Charizard's Special is lower and it's frailer, but it makes up for it with higher speed and attack, a usable physical movepool, and the crucial additional coverage that Thunder Punch provides, allowing Charizard to at least dent the Water-types that would otherwise give Moltres no end of trouble.

Annihilape: This is getting vetoed since with the ghost typing it has so many entry points, giving it eq also makes it hit the ghosts without much effort and it's absurdely bulky for a ghost type, a type that doesn't have any effective weaknesses in the game, it completely warps the meta around it.

Latias: Similarly to Annihilape, this thing is vetoed since it has an amazing defensive typing, it has huge stats and it basically better zam, also mist ball does not exist in gen 1 or in burgundy

Charizard: Burg already has 2 usable fire/flying types in Talonflame and Moltres, i'd recommend taking a Charizard sub in another direction, it's not veoted, I am just recommending to change it somehow.

View attachment 539437
Arcanine
Stats: 90/80/80/110/100
Typing: Fire/Electric
Movepool: +Thunderbolt, Thunder, Thunder Wave, Earthquake
Description: Weighing in is Arcanine with flashy new make over! By swapping its attack and special and earning its lightning stripes with a new typing, our good floofy boy can pose a threat to Exeggutor and Zapdos, two pokemon that are really needing another mon to keep them on their toes. Additionally, Arcanine gains Earthquake and a nudge more speed to give it the chance to make up for its short lifespan and reach its true bruiser potential!

View attachment 539444
Venusaur
Stats: 80/82/83/100/80
Typing: Grass
Movepool: +Stun Spore
Description: With Jungle Healing and Frenzy Plant, our girl doesn't need much to thrive. Removing the ankle weight that is Venusaur's poison typing will allow the plant to stand out from Victreebel and put her cool new tools to good use! Stun spore gives it a little extra utility although its fighting for the fourth slot, so no big change here. I also believe more grass types will lead to a healthier, greener, and more diverse tier, so while this doesn't look like much, I hope you consider cause this change is bigger than you think! :3

Arcanine: Pretty cool, Gastlies and I think Thunder Wave should still be removed and I still think it should not have a speed buff, there's no reason why this should be so fast, in fact, an interesting approach i'd think would be to lower its speed given you switched attack and special it also got much more bulky.

Venu: *claps in a change I recommended*

View attachment 539572
Muk

Stats: 115 (+10) / 105 / 90 (+15) / 85 (+20) / 25 (-25)
Typing: Grass
Movepool: +Stun Spore +Jungle Healing +Recover +Leech Seed +Solar Beam

Ferrothorn if it was awesome.

Adding another Recover user is already pretty risky, adding something with good defensive stats even more so. I still think this is balanced. It's got perfect coverage in TBolt + Ice Punch but it's Special isn't great enough to be completely unwallable. It's forced to either forego perfect coverage by replacing one of TBolt/Ice Punch with a Normal-type move or drop Stun Spore, which requires its teammates to paralyze Chansey to break through it. 25 Speed also means its outsped by the entire tier, forcing it to use Recover much more often than it would like.

Defensive Calcs

Tauros Blizzard vs. Muk: 153-180 (35.3 - 41.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Tauros Hyper Beam vs. Muk: 174-205 (40.1 - 47.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Snorlax Body Slam vs. Muk: 105-124 (24.2 - 28.6%) -- 98.9% chance to 4HKO
Chansey Ice Beam vs. Muk: 158-186 (36.4 - 42.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Aerodactyl Rock Slide vs. Muk: 91-108 (21 - 24.9%) -- guaranteed 5HKO
Alakazam Psychic vs. Muk: 133-157 (30.7 - 36.2%) -- 55.8% chance to 3HKO
Starmie Blizzard vs. Muk: 192-226 (44.3 - 52.1%) -- 16% chance to 2HKO
Starmie Psychic vs. Muk: 108-127 (24.9 - 29.3%) -- 100% chance to 4HKO
Tyranitar Rock Slide vs. Muk: 108-127 (24.9 - 29.3%) -- 100% chance to 4HKO
Machamp Focus Punch vs. Muk: 209-246 (48.2 - 56.8%) -- 91.3% chance to 2HKO
Dragonite Draco Meteor vs. Muk: 196-231 (45.2 - 53.3%) -- 34.7% chance to 2HKO
Gengar Ice Punch vs. Muk: 170-200 (39.2 - 46.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Persian Slash vs. Muk on a critical hit: 127-150 (29.3 - 34.6%) -- 6.8% chance to 3HKO
Cloyster Blizzard vs. Muk: 306-360 (70.6 - 83.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

So muk is completely fine, the only issue I personally have with it is how bulky it is alongside the fact that it gets recover, it should be fine regardless, though

View attachment 539875
Claydol
Type: Ground/Psychic
Movepool: Earthquake, Psychic, Explosion, Hyper Beam, Rock Slide, Thunder Wave, Hypnosis, Light Screen, Reflect, Barrier, Rest, Rage, Bide, Mimic, Toxic
Stats: HP: 60/Attack 70/Defense 110/Special 110/Speed 75
Role: A sidegrade to Rhydon, while Rhydon has much better physical defenses and HP, Claydol lacks a quad Water/Grass weakness as well as a Ground weakness. It also has the benefits of STAB Psychic and Explosion as a utility tool. It also help fill the role of a defensive Ground-type as the addition of a Psychic-typing gives it a valuable resistance to both Rock and Psychic on top of the Electric-type immunity.

View attachment 540602
Drampa
Type: Normal/Dragon
Movepool: Body Slam, Hyper Beam, Slash, Dragon Breath, Earthquake, Fire Blast, Thunderbolt, Thunder, Amnesia, Rest, Rage, Bide, Mimic, Toxic
Stats: HP 88/Attack 80/Defense 75/Special 111/Speed 36
Role: An Amnesia user that has the benefits of an immunity to both Body Slam and Dragon Breath paralysis, but is brought down by a bad Ice-type weakness, lack of powerful STAB, and low speed.
More coming soon

We've talked a lot about these two subs, they're fine and cool, I really like how boom makes it possible for claydol to basically be a better golem, which is fine cause golem is not that good. Drampa is interesting cause it's immune to body slam and dragon breath paralysis, but it's still weak to focus punch, blizzard and draco meteor while being an amnesia mon that relies on damaging moves to paralyse

Goddamn, everyone be like: "In order to make Poison Mons viable, we should remove the Poison typing from them "

Well, I don,t agree with such aproach (to be fair, the Venusaur one does make sense in my book though), so here is my take:


Stats: 90/82/87/75/76 (No changes here)
Typing: Poison-Ground (No changes here either).
Movepool Changes: +Sludge, + Softboiled, +Amnesia
Description: So, here is the Amnesia + recovery user that was specifically recommended to not be done. However, I think this one can be balanced by 4 factors:
1. Its not Recover, just Softboiled. 16 PPs, not 32.
2. Nidoqueen Stats are not to high. Its not ridiculously bulky, not too powerful, not fast either.
3. Both STABs are physical. It does learn BoltBeam, but it still can,t 2HKO Chansey at +6 (unless crit EQ, but then you are only using 1 Special move).
4. Typing defensively is bad, except for the Electric immunity.

While not broken (in my opinion), with Softboiled + Amnesia (or even without Amnesia), Nidoqueen will still be extremely good, now fully walling Zapdos and most electrics. Fight Mons like Sneasler are also in for big trouble when fighting Nidoqueen. The extensive offensive movepool makes Nidoqueen very versatile at attacking, not always even needing Amnesia to be good.


Stats: 81/92/77/75/85 (no changes).
Typing: Poison-Dragon
Movepool: +Sword Dance, +Sludge, +Focus Punch, +Draco Meteor.
Description:

Nidoking on the other hand doesn,t wall Electric Mons as well as it used to. However, it now walls Fire types pretty well and requires Water Mons to use Ice Beam. With Lovely Kiss (which it already gets from tradebacks), Nidoking can abuse either Sword Dance or Focus Punch pretty well. Just like Nidoking, it has a very wide offensive movepool.


Stats: 105/105/75/100/50
Typing: Poison-Water
Movepool: +Recover, +Water Gun, +Bubblebeam, +Surf, +Hydro Pump
Description:

Muk is now a very bulky and powerful tank with recovery. Its balanced by the 3 important weaknesses it has (Ground, Psychic and Electric) but nonetheless is able to outlast the checks and wear them down. New Water typing means Muk doesn,t fear Rhydon anymore, since now it can outspeed and OHKO it. It gives resistance to Fire, Water and Ice too, meaning Muk walls Cloyster outside of Explosion and forces Lapras to run Thunderbolt. The 100 Special comes from the Special Defense that it has in future generations.


Stats: 65/90/120/85/65 (no changes).
Typing: Poison-Ghost
Movepool: +Will-o-Wisp.
Description:

With the Ghost typing, Weezing becomes another reason for Normal types to run Earthquake and for Explosion users to think twice before using the Move. Will-o-Wisp is the other new bonus, Weezing becomes the second user of it after Ninetales. Unlike Gengar, Weezing is able to use Rest due to the high physical bulk it has, while also having a stronger Explosion than Gengar. Just like every Mon in this post, Weezing has a very wide movepool, making it a versatile threat balanced by the Poison typing handicap.

Nidoqueen: This is vetoed since it has softboiled + amnesia, pp is not even close to a relevant factor in balancing the combination of healing and amnesia in the fast-paced burgundy metagame, also you calced for Chansey which is like probably c tier in burgundy and Sneasler which is an unmon.

Nidoking: Another veto, Nidoking got amnesia from tradebacks and the combination of amnesia and draco meteor is absurd. (also please not another physical swords dancer, we have 8 billion of those)

Muk and Weezing: These are ok, but I think they fail to do what you want them to do, Muk is now basically bulkier Tentacruel while Weezing is Worse Gengar, it fails to outspeed most things it would want to burn and in the end I can only see it being an explosion button.

 

[Eeveeto]

Fixed Nidoqueen (who instead of Amnesia got Super Fang) and Nidoking (didn,t know he got Amnesia in GSC). Improved Weezing too with 25 extra HP and 2 Ice moves.
I disagree with the judgement of Muk. He is not just a bulkier Tentacruel, he is a better Tentacruel. 32 PPs recover is huge, Explosion is huge, special coverage with fire and electric moves also works. STAB Sludge does almost the same damage as Tentacruel's unboosted Hyper Beam, without the recharge turn. Just Recover alone is enough of a niche, with 32 PPs is a broken move, only balanced by being on a Poison type.

 

[gastlies]

Submission deadline is a week from today: Friday, August 18, 11:59 PM GMT-4

 

[Teh]

Reverted Muk's typing to Poison and removed all grass-type moves except Stun Spore. Hopefully should make it a little more breakable while staying true it's intended design as a reliable check to most physical attackers.

 

[oissu!]

Palossand

Stats: 75/85/110/75/35
Typing: Ground/Ghost
Movepool:

Show

Absorb, Bide, Body Slam, Confuse Ray, Double Team, Dream Eater, Earthquake, Harden, Hyper Beam, Hypnosis, Mega Drain, Mimic, Night Shade, Psychic, Rest, Rock Slide, Sand Attack, Substitute, Toxic
Added Moves: Surf

Description:
I had initially typed some long used car salesperson pitch for the little fella, but I honestly felt that was way too much wording for a sub lol. It has a great typing obviously, the lowered special bulk it is given means tauros and tyranitar while being helpless vs it physically can easily dispatch of it with ice or water coverage, and it of course means many special attackers can answer it due to not have access to many utility moves and its abysmal speed. Outside of being a stellar physical wall that can still be broken by setup sweepers due to no reliable recovery and not being too powerful on the offense. It has hypnosis to be a decent back sleeper. I think Palo could potentially be a nice answer to the rampant physical attackers without being overbearing.
While Palossand has never been able to learn surf in later generations it has been able to learn water moves that implicate the use of sea water, as such I feel surf makes the most sense thematically, and surf's coverage doesn't, at a glance at least, break the mon or give it too wide of coverage for its role.

Suppose it's worth mentioning not that it matters too much, Amnesia is a move it gets naturally but I chose to remove for obvious reasons.

 

[Neosonic97]

Annihilape: This is getting vetoed since with the ghost typing it has so many entry points, giving it eq also makes it hit the ghosts without much effort and it's absurdely bulky for a ghost type, a type that doesn't have any effective weaknesses in the game, it completely warps the meta around it.

Latias: Similarly to Annihilape, this thing is vetoed since it has an amazing defensive typing, it has huge stats and it basically better zam, also mist ball does not exist in gen 1 or in burgundy

Charizard: Burg already has 2 usable fire/flying types in Talonflame and Moltres, i'd recommend taking a Charizard sub in another direction, it's not veoted, I am just recommending to change it somehow.

Reduced Latias' stats (and Mist Ball being mentioned was a mistake to begin with, copied from an earlier sub, my b) and removed Annihilape's access to Earthquake (and reduced its stats).

With Earthquake gone, Annihilape may have free points of entry (it coming in for bascially free on the Big Three is kind of the point, it is meant to crush them specifically), but it is now also basically a free point of entry for most Psychic-types, and fares even worse against Zapdos or Jolteon than it already did, especially with its now-diminished bulk, and its matchup against Rhydon is significantly worse.

Charizard is now a Dragon-type instead of a Flying-type, and thus now has access to Draco Meteor. Yes, I know, it's not very original, sue me. This does fit the theme of reprising the abilities of both of Charizard's mega forms, though.

I guess I figured because Ice and Psychic are such good types in Gen 1, that Latias and Annihilape would be kept in check by them through the weaknesses, but I guess not with those stats.

As for Zard, I figured it would be a faster alternative to Moltres, and access to Thunder Punch would give it a niche Moltres and Talonflame cannot replicate (denting Starmie and Slowbro, whom Talon and Moltres both lose hard to [barring Moltres getting lucky with a Fire Spin lockdown on Slowbro].

 

[eshe0]

Reduced Latias' stats (and Mist Ball being there was a mistake to begin with) and removed Annihilape's access to Earthquake (and reduced its stats).

Charizard is now a Dragon-type instead of a Flying-type, and thus now has access to Draco Meteor.

I guess I figured because Ice and Psychic are such good types in Gen 1, that Latias and Annihilape would be kept in check by them through the weaknesses, but I guess not.

As for Zard, I figured it would be a faster alternative to Moltres, and access to Thunder Punch would give it a niche Moltres and Talonflame cannot replicate (denting Starmie and Slowbro, whom Talon and Moltres both lose hard to [barring Moltres getting lucky with a Fire Spin lockdown on Slowbro].

You can allways test out submissions in the calculator, as you see charizard is slower than most mons than it would target with thunderpunch and doesn't deal that much damage in return:

109 special charizard calcs

Starmie Surf vs. Charizard: 194-228 (54 - 63.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Starmie Thunderbolt vs. Charizard: 129-152 (35.9 - 42.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Starmie Blizzard vs. Charizard: 163-192 (45.4 - 53.4%) -- 36.6% chance to 2HKO
Charizard Thunder Punch vs. Starmie: 117-138 (36.2 - 42.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Slowbro Surf vs. Charizard: 168-198 (46.7 - 55.1%) -- 70.6% chance to 2HKO
Charizard Thunder Punch vs. Slowbro: 134-158 (34 - 40.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

We did also stablish draco meteor is a strong move and as such no mon could have special boosting moves alongside it and the highest special we would allow in a fast mon is 100, which is the same as dragonite's

On top of that we stablished the baseline of subs not being allowed to be a better tauros check than cloyster, and ghost types need to tread very carefully in that area since they can freely switch against tauros' normal moves, annihilape is still too much with those stats in that regard, even ttar gets 3hko'd by tauros eq, on the other hand this is tauros' best move vs annihilape:

Tauros Earthquake vs. Primeape: 91-107 (23.7 - 27.9%) -- 88.5% chance to 4HKO

Ghost type is one of the best defensive typings in rby and as such we require it to be paired with a secondary typing normal types (mainly tauros) can somehow deal with, like ground, poison, fire or rock. I hope this can help you in balancing your submissions, we talk more often about this in the discord server and answer more readily for people asking for help with submissions in case you are interested.

 

[Neosonic97]

You can allways test out submissions in the calculator, as you see charizard is slower than most mons than it would target with thunderpunch and doesn't deal that much damage in return:

109 special charizard calcs

Starmie Surf vs. Charizard: 194-228 (54 - 63.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Starmie Thunderbolt vs. Charizard: 129-152 (35.9 - 42.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Starmie Blizzard vs. Charizard: 163-192 (45.4 - 53.4%) -- 36.6% chance to 2HKO
Charizard Thunder Punch vs. Starmie: 117-138 (36.2 - 42.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Slowbro Surf vs. Charizard: 168-198 (46.7 - 55.1%) -- 70.6% chance to 2HKO
Charizard Thunder Punch vs. Slowbro: 134-158 (34 - 40.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

We did also stablish draco meteor is a strong move and as such no mon could have special boosting moves alongside it and the highest special we would allow in a fast mon is 100, which is the same as dragonite's

On top of that we stablished the baseline of subs not being allowed to be a better tauros check than cloyster, and ghost types need to tread very carefully in that area since they can freely switch against tauros' normal moves, annihilape is still too much with those stats in that regard, even ttar gets 3hko'd by tauros eq, on the other hand this is tauros' best move vs annihilape:

Tauros Earthquake vs. Primeape: 91-107 (23.7 - 27.9%) -- 88.5% chance to 4HKO

Ghost type is one of the best defensive typings in rby and as such we require it to be paired with a secondary typing normal types (mainly tauros) can somehow deal with, like ground, poison, fire or rock. I hope this can help you in balancing your submissions, we talk more often about this in the discord server and answer more readily for people asking for help with submissions in case you are interested.

Removed Annihilape entirely, Latias' stats have been rounded a bit and Draco Meteor has been removed from its movepool. Charizard has also lost access to Draco Meteor.

...I'm not sure why the special boosting moves thing was mentioned, neither Latias nor Charizard have them- that was a restraint I did exercise- the closest either has to that is Latias' Conversion, but that just lets her change her STABs and defensive typing. Nonetheless, I acknowledge that Draco Meteor is too strong on both 'mons, so I removed their access to it. Charizard is still a Dragon-type, though, which does drastically improve its matchup vs Waters and Rocks (and opposing Fires), at the cost of making it vulnerable to Earthquake. In turn, I gave Latias some of its lost stats back, primarily returning its speed back to 110 (And increasing its special to that much, matching its lower special attack from later gens).

 

[Bug Maniac Aydon]

Super late but I do want to add something


Salazzle
Fire/Poison
HP 68
Attack 64
Defense 60
Special 111
Speed 117
Moves: Acid, Amnesia, Body Slam, Double-Edge, Dragon Rage, Ember, Fire Blast, Flamethrower, Hyper Beam, Poison Gas, Rage, Sand-Attack, Scratch, Screech, Seismic Toss, Sludge, Smog, Toxic, Will-o-Wisp

Reasoning: A fast Amnesia user is of course always a very exciting prospect, and Will-o-Wisp is nice to have also. However, Salazzle has an extremely punishing typing and is swiftly put down by paralysis, so it is fairly easy to wall if you're not in a good spot to sweep with it, Aerodactyl and Starmie put down its sweeping prospects pretty fast, so you have to handle them first before Salazzle can take over the field.

Also more Poison and Fire representation woohoo

EDIT: 4 universals

 

[gastlies]

Voting time! This time around we're gonna try something different: Blind voting through a Google Form. This is to ensure that your votes aren't influenced by how others have voted. Like always, a few guidelines.

• You can rank as many subs as you want. You can rank just one, or you can rank all of them. Any sub you leave out will be treated as one spot worse than your last place rank. For example, if you rank 10 subs, then anything you don't rank will be treated as if you ranked it #11.
• You cannot vote for your own sub in first place. Apart from that, you're free to rank your own subs however you want.

We also have two subs that we deemed are still too powerful. If left unchanged during the voting stage, they will be vetoed.

Eeveeto The Nidos' tradeback moves strike again, this time with Lovely Kiss! Nidoking's ability to put foes to Sleep and then get a free Swords Dance is extremely powerful, especially since it can also use a risk-free Focus Punch on whatever tries to switch in. Because of this, we suggest getting rid of Lovely Kiss from Nidoking's movepool. Nidoqueen on the other hand, now has Recovery and Lovely Kiss. A set of Earthquake/Blizz/LK/Soft-Boiled seems really hard to beat, so because of this we also suggest removing Lovely Kiss from Nidoqueen too.

List of Subs

Breloom
Torterra
Flygon
Whiscash
Clefable
Poliwrath
Gliscor
Lapras
Victreebel
Piloswine
Latias
Charizard
Arcanine
Venusaur
Muk (TehTayTeh)
Claydol
Drampa
Chesnaut
Lilligant
Nidoqueen
Nidoking
Muk (Eeveeto)
Weezing
Palossand
Salazzle

Form Link: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1FAIpQLSeDb2flrZ9GSGBlzr8kHDkpCVl8e3KkKeLu4YhllUFrOy4QbQ/viewform

Deadline: Friday, August 26, 11:59 PM GMT-4.