Metagame Terastallization Tiering Discussion, Part II [CLOSED FOR DLC]

[Ehmcee]

Here is a thought. What if Tera had a built in alert system? Like, if the opponent clicks to terastallize, you will get an alert (including what type they chose), and if you have already selected a move then you will be ejected and be able to rechoose. The same goes for if they change their mind and don’t want to Tera, and unclick Terastallize. That way the surprise element is removed, the biggest issue with Tera.
This could probably get abused, does anyone have ideas to improve it? For the record I am not listening to people telling that this is shit, even if it is.

This is not a realistic proposition, OU's currently formatted to be played as close as possible on cartridge.

Some mods do exist, but it has been one of OU's main priorities to not add anymore.

The cancel mod is mostly a QOL mod that isn't possible on cartridge, to install a Tera clause that hinges on this mod to exist is not going to be accepted.

 

[Vall]

I find it very interesting that Gens 1-4 didn't even have these so called "generational mechanics" and yet these formats are all completely different, and that no one can agree what Gen 5's "generational gimmick" is yet no one can deny it's a very unique generation, and that Gen 7 also featured another gen's "generational mechanic" and yet was still completely different. It seems to me like generations are defined by the sum of many aspects and mechanics and not singularly by one mechanic each, and there are a number of things you could remove from each generation that would radically alter how they are played.

The main answer to this is, during gens 1-5, Pokemon was still refining the battle system. Rather than generational gimmicks, we got broad, permanent changes to the battle system as a whole. The gens are so different because they still fundamentally have differing mechanics, except they were iterative.

Gen 1 was the first, and had all the special stat, unbalanced types etc.
Gen 2 introduced darks & steels, as well as seperating SPA & SPD
Gen 3 was the first to introduce abilities, which due to their wide nature fundamentally changed a lot of mons
Gen 4 introduced the physical special split, which helped and hurt large swarth's of mons ability to use moves
Gen 5 finally introduced hidden abilities, which were usually designed to be more powerful, having a similar impact to gen 3 & team preview.

Each of them didn't have gimmicks, but core changes to the system

 

[Melbelle]

Okay so i reread your post and now im actually onboard with it I assumed that you wanted a system where Tusk clicks eq into gambit and if the gambit tera flying'd on that you would just reset and it would now just be flying gambit versus tusk

Isn't that what happens though? Assuming they know what tera was clicked:
*Tusk clicks EQ against Gambit*
*Gambit clicks tera Flying*
*Tusk's EQ is cancelled, and now can re-select a move with the knowledge Gambit will be a flying type this turn*

If we literally mod the game to keep tera, it's not really preserving the mechanic and more making our own mechanic tbh.

 

[kosecant]

Isn't that what happens though? Assuming they know what tera was clicked:
*Tusk clicks EQ against Gambit*
*Gambit clicks tera Flying*
*Tusk's EQ is cancelled, and now can re-select a move with the knowledge Gambit will be a flying type this turn*

If we literally mod the game to keep tera, it's not really preserving the mechanic and more making our own mechanic tbh.

I think for this solution to work you should just get a simple “You’re opponent has chosen to terastalize!” Message in chat, no further information given because knowing what type that comes with is way to strong for the other side.

I’m not totally opposed to it, but it could give too much information away for free imho

 

[Napoli Burns]

i think the new strategy of pro-tera boys is derailing the thread and talk about old gens (btw, where is the guy "i used qc on ferrothorn during gen 7"?) and come out with single one liner of "let's no take actions on tera"

also the ou council and staff should be more present and explain what is possible and what is not to players, stopping as soon as possible these kind of posts

Here is a thought. What if Tera had a built in alert system?

that describe unrelastic scenarios and re-program how the game is played on cartridge

is really easy explain how u feel about tera and how u would like to see a suspect (if it will ever take place)

I want to also say that moderation will be stricter here

what happened to this?

 

[DiscoDucky]

Before I start writing, I'd like to preface that I am writing my post from an analytical, semantic perspective and experiential one. I rarely have enough time to play meaningful games and probably won't participate in the next suspect; however, I do watch replays in the background for awareness on my end. Hopefully, whatever I end up writing will help shape some opinions.

As a game mechanic, Tera is one that makes most Pokemon better and adds an extra dimension to the current Pokemon battle formula; however, that mechanic overly concentrates power of a metagame into a few Pokemon that, without Tera, would still be the top of the tier.

In my opinion, the main strength of Tera comes in the form of probability. For this line of thought, I'll use items as an example. Theoretically, a Pokemon could have 50+ options for items, but we are able to reduce that down to 2 - 3 viable items based on our game knowledge. For example, you can deduce that a Blissey will likely run Leftovers or HDB than Choice Specs because of your existing game knowledge (e.g. Blissey is primarily defensive, wants to swap util moves, etc.). The same set of assumptions can be applied to Terastal. Pokemon that are fairly efficient in OU will usually have 2 - 4 Tera options, and those can be somewhat deduced through regular gameplay. For Pokemon dominating the metagame, they will sometimes have 6+ Tera options available to them, which in turn reduces the probability of you guessing the Tera type correctly. In addition, the cost of guessing the Type incorrectly is much higher, skewing the advantage in the opponent's favor.

What I think could reduce this probabilistic issue is making every Pokemon's Tera type known. Seeing that a Pokemon is running a certain type (e.g. Tera Flying Kingambit) significantly reduces, if not entirely removes, the "guessing game" aspect of Tera. Once you know the Tera type of each Pokemon, you can start formulating a pre-game plan on playing around these Tera types, which at that point becomes a case of skill expression (what we strive for in a competitive game) rather than "more luck-based than educated" guessing.

Finally, as an appeal to semantics and legislative precedence, banning Tera outright would be at odds against Smogon's tiering philosophy. As far as I know, we only attempt to ban items, moves, abilities, and even generational mechanics if they are broken on most/every user (within reason). Tera has demonstrated to not be the case on a Pokemon-by-Pokemon basis, so an outright ban wouldn't be the best option. At the same time, I recognize that we can't keep banning Pokemon that are great Tera abusers to Ubers to stay within Smogon's tiering philosophy. A middle ground option that addresses Tera's main problem, its probabilistic, "guessing game" nature, would be a good place to start.

After seven months of SV OU, it's pretty clear that some kind of regulatory action needs to be taken with Terastalization; however, Tera's ubiquity and impact in the current metagame means that a more conservative, nuanced approach would need to be used when regulating Tera.

 

[ianlazerbeem]

Before I start writing, I'd like to preface that I am writing my post from an analytical, semantic perspective and experiential one. I rarely have enough time to play meaningful games and probably won't participate in the next suspect; however, I do watch replays in the background for awareness on my end. Hopefully, whatever I end up writing will help shape some opinions.

As a game mechanic, Tera is one that makes most Pokemon better and adds an extra dimension to the current Pokemon battle formula; however, that mechanic overly concentrates power of a metagame into a few Pokemon that, without Tera, would still be the top of the tier.

In my opinion, the main strength of Tera comes in the form of probability. For this line of thought, I'll use items as an example. Theoretically, a Pokemon could have 50+ options for items, but we are able to reduce that down to 2 - 3 viable items based on our game knowledge. For example, you can deduce that a Blissey will likely run Leftovers or HDB than Choice Specs because of your existing game knowledge (e.g. Blissey is primarily defensive, wants to swap util moves, etc.). The same set of assumptions can be applied to Terastal. Pokemon that are fairly efficient in OU will usually have 2 - 4 Tera options, and those can be somewhat deduced through regular gameplay. For Pokemon dominating the metagame, they will sometimes have 6+ Tera options available to them, which in turn reduces the probability of you guessing the Tera type correctly. In addition, the cost of guessing the Type incorrectly is much higher, skewing the advantage in the opponent's favor.

What I think could reduce this probabilistic issue is making every Pokemon's Tera type known. Seeing that a Pokemon is running a certain type (e.g. Tera Flying Kingambit) significantly reduces, if not entirely removes, the "guessing game" aspect of Tera. Once you know the Tera type of each Pokemon, you can start formulating a pre-game plan on playing around these Tera types, which at that point becomes a case of skill expression (what we strive for in a competitive game) rather than "more luck-based than educated" guessing.

Finally, as an appeal to semantics and legislative precedence, banning Tera outright would be at odds against Smogon's tiering philosophy. As far as I know, we only attempt to ban items, moves, abilities, and even generational mechanics if they are broken on most/every user (within reason). Tera has demonstrated to not be the case on a Pokemon-by-Pokemon basis, so an outright ban wouldn't be the best option. At the same time, I recognize that we can't keep banning Pokemon that are great Tera abusers to Ubers to stay within Smogon's tiering philosophy. A middle ground option that addresses Tera's main problem, its probabilistic, "guessing game" nature, would be a good place to start.

After seven months of SV OU, it's pretty clear that some kind of regulatory action needs to be taken with Terastalization; however, Tera's ubiquity and impact in the current metagame means that a more conservative, nuanced approach would need to be used when regulating Tera.

remember that "most/every user" is a guideline - for very widely distributed moves and abilities such as Swagger and Baton Pass this hasn't necessarily been a requirement

 

[SnackWasTaken]

If we literally mod the game to keep tera, it's not really preserving the mechanic and more making our own mechanic tbh.

I give up.
If there’s no compromise that people will agree on and will maintain certain expectations, then just ban the shit and put Tera in the ban dimension.

 

[veti]

If there’s no compromise that people will agree on and will maintain certain expectations, then just ban the shit and put Tera in the ban dimension.

Banning would also be extremely controversial, and banning is also very unlikely.

No matter what happens in the suspect there will be controversy because Terastalization is one of the most controversial topics any metagame has ever had.

 

[BolTingBlazie]

I give up.
If there’s no compromise that people will agree on and will maintain certain expectations, then just ban the shit and put Tera in the ban dimension.

Exactly what I have been saying is it might just be better to ban it since none of the possible restriction solutions are able to really preserve the enjoyment many have for the mechanic.

 

[ausma]

mechanics won’t be altered nor integrated to restrict tera.

in regards to the matter itself, i personally believe there will be no 100% solution that satisfies everyone, so i think it’s instead important to try and isolate the problematic aspect of tera that is generally agreed upon and take steps toward possibly mitigating it or finding ways to approach it otherwise.

 

[DiscoDucky]

remember that "most/every user" is a guideline - for very widely distributed moves and abilities such as Swagger and Baton Pass this hasn't necessarily been a requirement

remember that "most/every user" is a guideline - for very widely distributed moves and abilities such as Swagger and Baton Pass this hasn't necessarily been a requirement

Swagger was banned as being the "most enabling aggressor" towards the ParaFusion strategy. I don't remember the discussion per se, but it was the combination of Confusions 50% hit rate + Swagger giving +2 Atk (which boosted Confusion damage). It's also interesting that you cited Baton Pass despite that its ban was a result of several incremental steps (banning Attacking stat + Speed passing > banning Speed passing > banning Subpassing > banning Baton Pass), which is what I'm indirectly advocating for a Tera Preview.

 

[Zetalz]

Getting rather annoyed with the impatience, defeatist attitudes and generally cyclical and/or derailing conversations in this thread. Solutions and compromises are not found overnight and you shouldn't be expecting action or anything of the sort when this thread has only been open for 3 days, and the PR Thread only a tad longer. If you've not got any pertinent insight to add to any realistically possible solutions, please don't engage with it by doomposting, being generally derisive towards others, or bringing up some other nonsense just to post.

Genuinely feels like nothing of substance has been talked about for the vast majority of this thread because people are just posting non-stop about all these non-relevant ideas and thoughts that serve as nothing but distractions since people seemingly don't want to engage with realistic solutions. Not naming names because I'm not trying to be mean, but man it's tiring to sit through page after page with nary an insightful take to see.

 

[BigFatMantis]

mechanics won’t be altered nor integrated to restrict tera.

in regards to the matter itself, i personally believe there will be no 100% solution that satisfies everyone, so i think it’s instead important to try and isolate the problematic aspect of tera that is generally agreed upon and take steps toward possibly mitigating it or finding ways to approach it otherwise.

I agree with this. However, I believe tera preview is altering/integrating mechanics to restrict tera, which is why I think it's a very bad option. We can call it a "gentleman's agreement" all we want, but so is announcing to your opp when you will tera, i.e. creating an "alert" on PS when you click it, which I am sure we can agree is altering the mechanic. So the only feasible thing to do, if we are going to restrict it, is ban tera blast, since that's the only thing that doesn't actually alter the mechanic. It's just banning a move within tiering policy. Not saying we should actually do that, but just think that's the only restriction that is justifiable if we are to stay within our guidelines of how we are allowed to restrict things.

It's not going to satisfy many people, but if people keep railing against the thought of banning tera blast as not doing "anything" then I honestly do believe we are just going to end up with no action again and totally unrestricted tera. Which, I am fine with, but probably a lot of others aren't. By pushing faulty solutions like tera preview (which actually add new problems while only band-aiding the current ones), and shooting down tera blast ban continuously, it's just going to make more people decide to vote no action altogether.

 

[Rootb]

It's not going to satisfy many people, but if people keep railing against the thought of banning tera blast as not doing "anything" then I honestly do believe we are just going to end up with no action again and totally unrestricted tera. Which, I am fine with, but probably a lot of others aren't. By pushing faulty solutions like tera preview (which actually add new problems while only band-aiding the current ones), and shooting down tera blast ban continuously, it's just going to make more people decide to vote no action altogether.

Tbh, reading through this thread, it feels like there's a very large # of players who think they're in the minority when they say they're fine with nothing. Way more than there are people who are sincerely demanding a ban. The issue is that they're generally short posts, or single posts, and (much like certain other tests), their voices wind up getting drowned out by people who repeatedly post demonstrably untrue statements about Tera being RNG and uncompetitive.

The policy review thread has been fantastic for seeing the sorted opinions of more accomplished players, and it really is night and day how different opinions on Tera are once you accept that it is, in fact, a skillful mechanic.

I don't really know what to do about that, because obviously you can't (and shouldn't) ban people from posting, but i've had multiple people either disappear or deflect when I ask them what they'd like to see happen -- and I think that, in itself, is very telling.

 

[Karxrida]

However, I believe tera preview is altering/integrating mechanics to restrict tera, which is why I think it's a very bad option.

Don't want to dwell on this because my opinion on Preview has been shifting, but just asking you and your opponent to exchange information about Tera Types doesn't require altering any actual mechanics. It is along the lines of HP%, which is actually enforceable on cart and exists in its current form as a convenience.

Also the man issue with an alert announcing the turn a Tera is happening is that it leads to games of chicken. Doesn't exactly jive with a turn-based system where you can make your decision before even getting the alert.

 

[BigFatMantis]

Also the man issue with an alert announcing the turn a Tera is happening is that it leads to games of chicken. Doesn't exactly jive with a turn-based system where you can make your decision before even getting the alert.

I actually did think of a way to make this feasible. Don't want to derail the thread too much since it's unlikely to happen or even be considered, but it is entirely possible to have clicking tera + your action be non-cancellable, and when you do it, it cancels your opp's action and alerts them you are tera-ing your pokemon. This falls in line with not altering mechanics "technically" since it's a very loose gentlemen's agreement, which is in my opinion the same as what tera preview would be.

I bet some people would actually really like a restriction like that, but I think it's also very bad obviously because to me, that's altering the game too much, just like to me preview is altering it too much.

 

[Avira]

The only acceptable restriction is to ban Tera Blast since Tera Preview would actively make the meta worse. A ban on Tera Blast does reduce the amount of variance in the tier and makes the meta less match-up fishy since you can't just choose the perfect Tera Type to nuke what would otherwise be a solid check to the Pokemon you have on the field, both of which are problems the pro-Ban/Restriction aside want addressed.

Tera Preview reduces skill expression in the meta, increases the number of 50/50s, and helps create more snowballing interactions, which would be the opposite of ideal. I want a ban on Terastal more than most people, but I cannot argue in good faith for Tera Preview because of the negative impact it would have on the meta.

The suspect should use a ranked-choice vote with 3 options: Outright ban, No Action, and Ban Tera Blast.

 

[Eelstartega]

Well, Promises are promises, and the earthquake wannabe of last night will not stop me; I've lived a way worse one during my childhood. Took me a while because of studies and a rotten flan.

Now I want to talk about a more intricate tiering proposal: Tera Preview. This will be a juicy one, although I might tumble a bit here because, again, social skills are not my strenght, and Team Preview is mostly about psychology instead of raw numbers.

First of all, How it could be implemented? Oddly enough we already have tools for doing it. Showing the tera symbol alongside the pokémon is a good way of going with it, with said symbol being removed once it was used unless it's the terastalized target.

What would this accomplish

• Reduce its unpredictability. According to you, a big issue people seem to have with tera in general is THE LURES, sets who are made just to put you in a check mate scenario via countering their supposed checks, who really benefit from tera and therefore makes the tier volatile. Preview no longer would make you actually surprised by that element. That does not mean those sets will stop existing, because sometimes having that option on itself is enough of a threat through conditioning, and could even be used as fluff at times, it just makes Lures risky to use and somewhat inconsistent in a bad way like in other generations.
• Make Terastalization a true 50/50. Tera right now is not a 50/50 because there's just way too many options of tera, but if you knew what was said tera it would be an actual situation where you can know which are the possible outputs of your opponent.
• Make Tera Blast a non-issue: Going back with Lures, right now there's no way of reacting to a random tera lure due to tera blast being 120BP instead of 60, making them very strong and therefore the matchups incredibly volatile. With preview tera blast becomes something the opponent can prepare for with preview, giving it actual counterplay while still being effective at counterchecking.
• Reduce the creative factor somewhat: In case Teras are seen before the activation, going outside of the expected will become more punishable and therefore less desirable. It doesn't mean you can't do it and suceed, after all the meta with Tera seems prone to changes, is just that said changes need to be more thoughful instead of relying on surprise factor.

What would this not accomplish

• Reduce the power of Tera significantly. A lot of the power of tera is from usage of it overtime to gain power and resistances, and the hability of changing type on crucial moments. Revealing said potential change does not remove said factor. If terastalization was revealed Enamorus and Kingambit would still be problematic while Volcarona would still be banworthy.
• Fix the tier. I've said this many times, but the tier has ridiculous amounts of powercreep, most notably Kingambit, Gholdengo, Paradox creatures, Hisuan Samurott, Enamorus, Garganacl, Dondozo and Skeledirge, alongside lots of defensive nerfs. The tier will remain offense no matter what you try to do because the game is not giving tools to play defense to begin with.
• Remove the skill and versatility of it. It's indeed reducing it, but it doesn't remove all of what makes tera an "skillful mechanic". Tera is still the a very versatile tool who is useful both on offense and defense and rewards the player who thinks outside of the box more than the guide follower, is just that the standards to be innovative will be somewhat harsher. Mechanically it is the same, and thus the decision making is not changed; If anything, the extra information makes you able to do deeper reads for both sides, making it even more intricate and more punishing to use poorly, both lowering the floor and raising the ceiling.

Now, If something I've learned from playing card games is that trying to get opposing information is overrated; Most of the time knowing what the opponent has is kinda irrelevant over you just playing without overextending and having X factor into consideration, and sometimes is just better to play praying to RNGesus that they don't have Mystic shot, Three Sisters, Form Up!, Heavy metal, Disintegrate, Minimorph, Vengeance, Quicksand, Pale cascade or whatever Ionian BS the opponent has, as well as trying to force a lose-lose scenario to them via pressure. I know tera preview will not be particularly different here than in other instances even if it's a different genre.
Then why is Tera Preview popular? It's because of agency. You see, a lot of what makes a game enjoyable is having the control of the situation or trying to gain said control through effort. That concept is known as agency in the industry and is pillar of many gameplay cores; information is crucial for said agency because it makes you take more thoughful decisions. Meanwhile the lack of agency makes games frustrating to play, created by elements like unpredictability or randomness, like confusion, flinches, paralysis, sand attack, evasion or glitches. Tera is, as I've said before, not random but unpredictable due to the many options the opponent has, so it can cause frustration if defeated by something you could not see coming nor prepared because it was impossible to do it, also known as getting cheesed and indeed it feels awful; that's why stuff that actively wants to deny agency of the opponent like evasion, king's rock or swagger are banned. Being also implemented on VGC also helps to make the idea appealing because there's official mods who do it, although it would be in a smogon way.

What do I mean with this? That the Pro-preview crew with their proposal are suggesting that, instead of focusing on how powerful Terastalization is, we should start to focus on the frustrating elements, trying to make Tera able to give agency to both sides instead of steal it with a cheese strategy, which could be acomplished via removing its unpredictability, while also being closer to the official competitive. Honestly it seems reasonable to at least try this; After all, this is a suspect TEST, meant to test stuff instead of just theorycrafting as the mosquito said before. That's why I advocate for tera preview then ban or not, or to make more of a multiquestion test to get the desirable result, and said test should have tera preview enabled to actually test it. It might be a bit challenging to code but it could also be implemented to VGC in case of OTS, so it's not all wasted effort in case of tera ban.

PS: Zweilous guy, I've been trying to make constructive talks from day 1, not just yesterday. Is just that I don't have that shame when saying a hot take, forgetting this is the internet who has weird rules.

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

Genuinely feels like nothing of substance has been talked about for the vast majority of this thread because people are just posting non-stop about all these non-relevant ideas and thoughts that serve as nothing but distractions since people seemingly don't want to engage with realistic solutions. Not naming names because I'm not trying to be mean, but man it's tiring to sit through page after page with nary an insightful take to see.

i mean, the whole point of this thread is to contain all the vacuous statements about tera in the same place away from the actual discussion. it's like one of those ant hotels

 

[MegaScizor32]

Just throwing out ideas ausma is stab-tera only or bst-tera restriction (such as 500 bst and lower only can tera) off the the table?

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

Just throwing out ideas ausma is stab-tera only or bst-tera restriction (such as 500 bst and lower only can tera) off the the table?

restricting tera through arbitrary things like bst is just om material at that point.

…actually, now that i think about it, i'd totally play an om where tera was only allowed on uubl and below mons

 

[BolTingBlazie]

restricting tera through arbitrary things like bst is just om material at that point.

…actually, now that i think about it, i'd totally play an om where tera was only allowed on uubl and below mons

Make that UU and below and that would make for a fire OM. (Some uubl mons are still really gross with tera honestly)

 

[ausma]

Just throwing out ideas ausma is stab-tera only or bst-tera restriction (such as 500 bst and lower only can tera) off the the table?

As of right now yes. The main options that have received large community support have been Tera preview and banning Tera Blast, which are what we mentioned in the policy thread. If there is sudden heavy support for these ideas we’ll for sure discuss them, but not right now

 

[MegaScizor32]

restricting tera through arbitrary things like bst is just om material at that point.

…actually, now that i think about it, i'd totally play an om where tera was only allowed on uubl and below mons

Just tryna promote discussion for other possibilities. It would allow weaker mons to shine more and it wouldn't be overbearing to the metagame. Its kinda similar to how some draft leagues restrict tera use.