Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v2 [Update on Post #5186]

[sims796]

If I can vent for one moment, excuse me...

I'm gonna organize a bloody riot if the devs make one more mon irrelevant. Wtf? Just erase Samurot from the game, or at least give him a new sig. Hamurrot is better in literally every conceivable way. There's power creep, then there's spite.

I'm glad they never made a Vileplume regional form, or it might get the Raichu treatment.

It's not even that theyre better, they have the same bst, just optimized. Glowing has 10 more Sp.Atk? Why not adjust Slowking as well? It doesn't need that 10 attack to begin with! What's better, Raichu, or Raichu that can use Psychic?

I feel better. At least until my next match against Glimmora.

 

[ima]

https://www.reddit.com/r/stunfisk/comments/14oixix
I posted some thoughts of mine over here on Reddit (doing this for my own sake, i want to gather everyone's thoughts as the inevitable tera discussion comes) so if you have any questions for me or want to give your food for thought do let me know in the comments. Posting this here because I know someone tagged the council a couple days ago asking for thoughts.

 

[Rootb]

I'm glad they never made a Vileplume regional form, or it might get the Raichu treatment.

You know, when you think about it, Amoongus is just a Vileplume regional variant. Slow, Grass/Poison, access to multiple Spore moves, Effect Spore as an ability...

 

[Eeveeto]

If I can vent for one moment, excuse me...

I'm gonna organize a bloody riot if the devs make one more mon irrelevant. Wtf? Just erase Samurot from the game, or at least give him a new sig. Hamurrot is better in literally every conceivable way. There's power creep, then there's spite.

I'm glad they never made a Vileplume regional form, or it might get the Raichu treatment.

It's not even that theyre better, they have the same bst, just optimized. Glowing has 10 more Sp.Atk? Why not adjust Slowking as well? It doesn't need that 10 attack to begin with! What's better, Raichu, or Raichu that can use Psychic?

I feel better. At least until my next match against Glimmora.

Raichu at least has Lighting Rod, meaning that with Tera Water or Flying, it actually has some use, especially with Encore (and STAB Surf).
Regular Slowking is very different from Galarian one and I non-ironically think its typing is better for the Meta.
Regular Samurott though... I don,t see anything worth using in OU in him.

 

[Mega Breloom]

You know, when you think about it, Amoongus is just a Vileplume regional variant. Slow, Grass/Poison, access to multiple Spore moves, Effect Spore as an ability...

Most of Unova dex are basically gen1 regional form.

 

[sims796]

You know, when you think about it, Amoongus is just a Vileplume regional variant. Slow, Grass/Poison, access to multiple Spore moves, Effect Spore as an ability...

Stop depressing me, there's a reason why I stubbornly refuse to use it

 

[sims796]

Raichu at least has Lighting Rod, meaning that with Tera Water or Flying, it actually has some use, especially with Encore (and STAB Surf).
Regular Slowking is very different from Galarian one and I non-ironically think its typing is better for the Meta.
Regular Samurott though... I don,t see anything worth using in OU in him.

No lie, needed to read this. You've just tanked my ELO, because I'm shoe-horning Raichu in.

Also, I really want to give a shout-out to my mon Arboliva. I'm not saying it needs to be ranked, but it is a very, very solid addition, and I dont think Rillaboom has done anything to change that. Surprisingly beefy, and a damn good Eject Button user.

 

[Pabloaram]

Most of Unova dex are basically gen1 regional form.

Unova wanted to be a reset but people cannot forget Pikachu and Charizard. You can't even catch not Unova Mons in the normal playtroug

 

[Magcargo]

Raichu at least has Lighting Rod, meaning that with Tera Water or Flying, it actually has some use, especially with Encore (and STAB Surf).
Regular Slowking is very different from Galarian one and I non-ironically think its typing is better for the Meta.
Regular Samurott though... I don,t see anything worth using in OU in him.

Uhhhhh its lack of a Fighting weakness lets it survive CC from Tusk and Iron Valiant, putting it in Torrent range as it sets up SD and KOes back with Mystic Water, Tera Water, Torrent boosted +2 Aqua Jet. Totally a tournament worthy niche (back in gen 5 OU) that players consider when teambuilding.

252 Atk Great Tusk Close Combat vs. 40 HP / 0 Def Tera Water Samurott: 226-267 (66.2 - 78.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Iron Valiant Close Combat vs. 40 HP / 0 Def Tera Water Samurott: 225-265 (65.9 - 77.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Mystic Water Torrent Tera Water Samurott Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Iron Valiant: 314-370 (108.6 - 128%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Mystic Water Torrent Tera Water Samurott Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Great Tusk: 452-536 (121.8 - 144.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO Copied

Sure, Hisui Samurott can technically do this too if it just Tera Waters turn 1 vs Iron Valiant and Great Tusk but... uh........

Regular Samurott is cooler!

 

[SnackWasTaken]

Most of Unova dex are basically gen1 regional form.

Give me five examples.

 

[Narmy]

Unova wanted to be a reset but people cannot forget Pikachu and Charizard. You can't even catch not Unova Mons in the normal playtroug

And thats why gen 5 the goat

 

[Mega Breloom]

Give me five examples.

1- The dream eater physcic type line: Hypno-Musharna
2- The strong fighting type line that is used to help in jobs where their strenght is helpful: Machamp-Conkeldur
3- The fighting type single evo duo which are rivals: Thorw/Saw-Hitmonlee/Hitmonchan
4- The artificial Pokémon made by the evil team based on an ancient Pokémon to be used as a weapon: Mew-Genecect
5- The flying type legendary trio which control elements that affect the weather of the region: the birbs - genies

 

[SnackWasTaken]

1- The dream eater physcic type line: Hypno-Musharna
2- The strong fighting type line that is used to help in jobs where their strenght is helpful: Machamp-Conkeldur
3- The fighting type single evo duo which are rivals: Thorw/Saw-Hitmonlee/Hitmonchan
4- The artificial Pokémon made by the evil team based on an ancient Pokémon to be used as a weapon: Mew-Genecect
5- The flying type legendary trio which control elements that affect the weather of the region: the birbs - genies

Fair

 

[awyp]

Has anyone used Azelf?

I think it has a great movepool that really hasn't been dived into deeply (could definitely see an increase in usage). Mystical Power is essentially a (Psychic type Charge Beam) but better because it hits harder and its a 100% +1 Boost in SpA every time of using.

 

[Stonerocker]

Has anyone used Azelf?

I think it has a great movepool that really hasn't been dived into deeply (could definitely see an increase in usage). Mystical Power is essentially a (Psychic type Charge Beam) but better because it hits harder and its a 100% +1 Boost in SpA every time of using.

I tried using it once on a rain team (probably not the most appropiate team to use azelf) as a physical (yes, physical) attacker. It did okay, it does really have a good movepool after all.

It might become popular down the road, but as a suicide lead on HO teams, but I definetly agree that it seems underexplored.

Also mystical power has 90% acc, not 100% lol

 

[awyp]

I tried using it once on a rain team (probably not the most appropiate team to use azelf) as a physical (yes, physical) attacker. It did okay, it does really have a good movepool after all.

It might become popular down the road, but as a suicide lead on HO teams, but I definetly agree that it seems underexplored.

Also mystical power has 90% acc, not 100% lol

100% SpA Boost

 

[Stonerocker]

100% SpA Boost

Ahh, my bad, I thought you were referring to accurary

 

[Magcargo]

Has anyone used Azelf?

I think it has a great movepool that really hasn't been dived into deeply (could definitely see an increase in usage). Mystical Power is essentially a (Psychic type Charge Beam) but better because it hits harder and its a 100% +1 Boost in SpA every time of using.

I wanna like Mystical Power, but 70 BP / 90 Acc makes it a fair deal worse than its closest analog, Torch Song. Azelf's stat spread is better for sweeping with Scarf than Skeledirge I guess, but then you realize Psychic STAB has many immunities and that idea is out the window. As an attacker, Azelf just seems like Iron Valiant at home, with worse typing and arguably worse movepool (no Knock mainly) + lacking booster energy. It does have some advantages, like STAB Future Sight and Levitate, which I could see it use to carve out some niche with Tera to run some sort of pivot or lure set since the Spikes immunity is pretty big. The worse typing does make it better at luring Samur-H and Kingambit too.

I could see the lead set having some niche since the lead metagame is pretty volitile, but its got some sus MUs vs stuff like Samur-H doesn't seem great (I think Samur can just Ceaseless -> Aqua Jet and you are put at a significant disadvantage).

Out of the lake Pixies, I think Uxie is probably the best since it can run a nasty CM Stored Power set ala Cresselia, with some unique tricks of its own like Draining Kiss and Taunt.

 

[WildWave]

Has anyone used Azelf?

I think it has a great movepool that really hasn't been dived into deeply (could definitely see an increase in usage). Mystical Power is essentially a (Psychic type Charge Beam) but better because it hits harder and its a 100% +1 Boost in SpA every time of using.

Haven’t used it yet, but anything with setup + Encore, you can never go wrong:)

 

[coral fan]

resource: compact teambuilding checklist
bascially just VRs + my personal bias + usage bias + compact presentation

S
A
B
C

 

[Fenghuang]

If I can vent for one moment, excuse me...

I'm gonna organize a bloody riot if the devs make one more mon irrelevant. Wtf? Just erase Samurot from the game, or at least give him a new sig. Hamurrot is better in literally every conceivable way. There's power creep, then there's spite.

I'm glad they never made a Vileplume regional form, or it might get the Raichu treatment.

It's not even that theyre better, they have the same bst, just optimized. Glowing has 10 more Sp.Atk? Why not adjust Slowking as well? It doesn't need that 10 attack to begin with! What's better, Raichu, or Raichu that can use Psychic?

I feel better. At least until my next match against Glimmora.

Maybe this is me being weird, but why do people care? If you wanna play with Samurot just play a lower tier. Hamurot existing doesn't make Samurot any less viable, so it's just a matter of playing what you want. Spite? It's a fictional creature no one has spite against it.

Raichu and Alolachu have different niches, raichu is a support mon (with decent usage in VGC by the way) and alolachu is an electric terrain sweeper.

Glowking isn't a slowking upgrade. The typing is pretty different, and slowking didn't get teleport in gen8 which was a big difference.

 

[Mega Breloom]

Has anyone used Azelf?

I think it has a great movepool that really hasn't been dived into deeply (could definitely see an increase in usage). Mystical Power is essentially a (Psychic type Charge Beam) but better because it hits harder and its a 100% +1 Boost in SpA every time of using.

Being a pure psychic is bad, similar to Kleavor and Iron Leaves it proves how much the typing matters regardless of the role the mon does. In Azelf case you could say that it just wants to get hazards and explode most of the time, which even if it is not wrong, it lacks the tools to get around bad match ups, particularly Hatt that is getting some usage on screens.
Basically its poor bulk and typing doesn't allow it have some extra utility to justify using it, Sam not only doesn't care about Hatt but also has two priority moves that can help latter if you decide to keep it, can come in into most Gholdengo sets and overall hits hard thanks to sharpness. Azelf even with tera has poor bulk which makes hard to get enough boost to break some walls which could be the main appeal to use it.

 

[pika pal]

The thing I dislike about most Regional forms is how many of them just feel like the old form but trying (not always succeeding) to min-max it instead of just allowing actual buffs (which we have precedent for in Gen 6 at the latest before the concept was introduced). Like, Stunfisk or Ninetales aren't directly comparable to their Regionals in playstyle even with a gap in viability, but what the hell distinguishes Persian-A or Dugtrio-K from the other variant beyond "they don't have these major weaknesses/missing traits" comparatively?

Hamurott falls under this category for me because aside from Ceaseless Edge being Dark Type and the corresponding secondary type, nothing it was given couldn't have just been an addition to base Samurott as well (Ceaseless Edge mentions the Shell Blade so it's a shared trait vs Infernal Parade on the Ghostly Typhlosion-H for example). It gets literally every move its base form did plus more, which is a boring way to design a variant to me and I think most illustrates the kind of "Power Creep" people are often bringing up in discussion: This isn't adding variation or a non-comparable, this is just "the same thing but better," the type of design that feeds into those concerns the most. It's not a form Pokemon engages in too often but it's very egregious when it happens.

 

[sims796]

Maybe this is me being weird, but why do people care? If you wanna play with Samurot just play a lower tier. Hamurot existing doesn't make Samurot any less viable, so it's just a matter of playing what you want. Spite? It's a fictional creature no one has spite against it.

Raichu and Alolachu have different niches, raichu is a support mon (with decent usage in VGC by the way) and alolachu is an electric terrain sweeper.

Glowking isn't a slowking upgrade. The typing is pretty different, and slowking didn't get teleport in gen8 which was a big difference.

For shit's sake, most of that was tounge in check. Why the hell would I think they did it to spite me? Come on.

No duh can I play it in lower tiers. Fact is, rather than do anything to upgrade Sam, they literally made an all new version, better in nearly every way. As if they could have done wonders with the original, but said screw it, I'll make a new one. In any tier where I can use Ham, there is little reason to use Sam. They could have at least upgraded Sam to match. I see they tried somewhat, to make Sam more defensive, but too little.

Which brings in the Glowking example. Point was, they gave Glow the stats Slow wants, as if realizing that Slow doesn't need 10 points of sp.atk. Thankfully they have massive differences in typing, but statewide, Glow is Slow, but min maxed. Not that they both friggin' exists.

And while I'm glad that Raichu has found a niche, their's absolutely no doubt that Alolan Raichu was meant to be it's upgrade. It even has min maxed stats compared to the original, while said original has gotten nothing all that new. Raichu might not have been the best example seeing how it's always been their red headed stepchild - it wouldn't be the same if Raichu wasn't neglected.

It shouldn't be hard to get that im annoyed at not only the massive, silly power creep, but old mon's are literally falling victim to what is practically themselves.

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

You know, when you think about it, Amoongus is just a Vileplume regional variant. Slow, Grass/Poison, access to multiple Spore moves, Effect Spore as an ability...

recent datamining has shown that amoonguss is actually listed in the game code as "vileplume-sus"