Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v2 [Update on Post #5186]

[KrazyKoopa95]

Basculegion will not be banned to AG.

Maybe. I am just speculating. Last Respects is just broken & on a mon with Swift Swim seems OP.

 

[Daikessen]

Yes.

Would it not be treated the same way as Shed Tail?

 

[G-Luke]

Maybe. I am just speculating. Last Respects is just broken & on a mon with Swift Swim seems OP.

In that case LS would need to be banned

 

[pika pal]

>Sneasler - dire claw is bs, maybe they'll ban it so it's forced to use pjab. either way i think it's still a healthy addition to the tier

Why Poison Jab when Sneasler gets Gunk Shot?

 

[Moyashi]

Is my king Baxcalibur going to be outclassed again and go back to UUBL now that Chien-Pao is here?

If Pao somehow lasts through June... Which is extremely unlikely.

i see this guy on tr teams and he happens to pair ridiculously good with chilly reception glowking. killing this thing with physical moves is a chore, tera nonwithstanding.

This. The bulk investment on TR teams also makes it pretty obnoxious to beat down.

 

[Mega Breloom]

My predictions for how the new guys will fit into OU

Rank	Mons
Uber
S
High A
Low A
High B
Low B
C
D
UR	everyone else

Some highlights:

> Heatran - my goat. even without toxic or eruption i still believe it'll be top of the tier. i think tera really helps it (grass/flying), and just like older gens it has very few real counters thanks to magma storm.

> Ursaluna - let it be on record that i think this mon is crazy good and pastagirl said on multiple ocassions that it'd be UU and worse than terrak.

> Enamorus - this mon is weird bc she's mostly outclassed by Valiant but EP is huge, fairy/ground is insanely good coverage.

>Sneasler - dire claw is bs, maybe they'll ban it so it's forced to use pjab. either way i think it's still a healthy addition to the tier

>Hoopa-U - not a fan of gens 6 & 7 ou so it's cool to see him in a tier i kinda like. gonna be rly fun to use, big fan of this mon

> Goodra-H - feels like the sort of mon that will eventually have a niche once the meta settles. has some great resistances and huge spdef bulk.

>Moltres & Gapdos - finally some good Tusk switchins :)

>Regidrago - this guy with tera and some new tools might be pretty nice

Without defog, toxic and knock off while also competes with Tusk and Luna, can't see Lando as a S rank mon anymore, is still good but doesn't look like as good as it was on past gens.

 

[Avira]

I'm not saying Heatran is bad this gen, but people overhype Heatran so much just because it it was a top mon for 4 generations in a row and became S-rank when Magma Storm's trapping damage was boosted. It is a fact that Heatran lost Toxic and Eruption and that it has new checks this gen. Heatran just won't be as good as it used to be.

 

[Crimson Chris]

Just curious to everyone's opinion on H-Samurott. Sharpness + STAB Aqua Cutter/Razor Shell and Ceaseless Edge (that sets up spikes) seems quite good.

 

[BolTingBlazie]

Finch what do you think of the two zamazentas right now and some of the more balanced pokemon?

 

[Moyashi]

I'm not saying Heatran is bad this gen, but people overhype Heatran so much just because it it was a top mon for 4 generations in a row and became S-rank when Magma Storm's trapping damage was boosted. It is a fact that Heatran lost Toxic and Eruption and that it has new checks this gen. Heatran just won't be as good as it used to be.

What new checks? Loss of toxic is annoying but nowhere near a deal breaker. It can still trap and remove things, especially with tera enabling it. It still has a premium defensive profile and is as obnoxious to switch into because magma storm chip, especially in such a hazard heavy metagame, is brutal.

 

[serperiorr]

(Tiers aren't ordered)

Ursaluna mid, if I wanna use a mon to trade I'll use Volcanion which has defensive utility. Thing is slow as balls and has to predict every turn. On webs, it goes hard tho. Unfortunately webs itself is ass.

Enamorus is incredible, maybe later on gets suspected. Scarf Hwish is so splashable, and contrary boots with taunt/terablast is very hard to deal with. CM is also probably good. Sneasler also seems borderline broken which will only get crazier once meta becomes fat again. Also H braviary is slept on, not good rn because of Ho spam but this mon is a pain for balance/stall

Mage and gmolt are basically espathra in which the right set/tera outrights 6-0s. Even mono dark move (resto chesto) can run tera poison etc to beat iron valiant. Sub also seems fire to beat garg and allow setup w tera.

Haven't used much Zama aside from this meme set with moonblast, but ID has like 0 counters while also having way too good defensive utility and crazy speed. This mon has way too much value.

 

[awyp]

View attachment 520565

Ursaluna mid

 

[BolTingBlazie]

View attachment 520565
(Tiers aren't ordered)

Ursaluna mid, if I wanna use a mon to trade I'll use Volcanion which has defensive utility. Thing is slow as balls and has to predict every turn. On webs, it goes hard tho. Unfortunately webs itself is ass.

Enamorus is incredible, maybe later on gets suspected. Scarf Hwish is so splashable, and contrary boots with taunt/terablast is very hard to deal with. CM is also probably good. Sneasler also seems borderline broken which will only get crazier once meta becomes fat again. Also H braviary is slept on, not good rn because of Ho spam but this mon is a pain for balance/stall

Mage and gmolt are basically espathra in which the right set/tera outrights 6-0s. Even mono dark move (resto chesto) can run tera poison etc to beat iron valiant. Sub also seems fire to beat garg and allow setup w tera.

Haven't used much Zama aside from this meme set with moonblast, but ID has like 0 counters while also having way too good defensive utility and crazy speed. This mon has way too much value.

I think the iron defense set makes crowned broken, zamazenta hero is not as good at the iron defense body press stuff as it lacks the power crowned has with those sets, 4mss and weak coverage probably keeps hero in line, as well as being not too fat for other mons to smash through despite having 138 speed, also you aren't checking much as a pure fighting type.

 

[Avira]

What new checks? Loss of toxic is annoying but nowhere near a deal breaker. It can still trap and remove things, especially with tera enabling it. It still has a premium defensive profile and is as obnoxious to switch into because magma storm chip, especially in such a hazard heavy metagame, is brutal.

It being a hazard-heavy metagame goes both ways as it means Heatran itself will get chipped more easily. Baxcalibur can 1v1 Heatran. Roaring Moon is a strong check to Heatran, and Walking Wake is a new 4x resist to Magma Storm. Heatran also needs to Tera to beat Clodsire if it doesn't have Air Balloon.

 

[Hematite]

Would it not be treated the same way as Shed Tail?

Yes, it would be treated the same way as all three of Shed Tail, Last Respects and Rage Fist.
What that means is that Sneasler would be banned first, and Dire Claw could only be banned if it were distributed more and another Pokémon also became banworthy on account of Dire Claw. However, we have no reason to expect that right now.

As a rule:

- If there is only one broken user, the Pokémon is banned.​

For reference, see the original cases of Cyclizar and Houndstone being banned by themselves. Cyclizar was thought to be the only Pokémon that was broken by Shed Tail, and Houndstone was the only Pokémon that had Last Respects at all at the time, so the Pokémon were banned instead of the move.​

There's also Annihilape, which continues to be the only banned Rage Fist user, so Rage Fist isn't banned just to "nerf" Annihilape.​

All of these are the same as a hypothetical issue with Dire Claw.​

​

- Later, if multiple Pokémon have made a case to be banned solely because of the move, the move can be banned instead.​

This is what happened when Shed Tail was found to be broken on both Cyclizar and Orthworm, and again what happened when Last Respects was distributed further and was therefore responsible for both Houndstone and Basculegion being banned.​

In both cases, it took more than one Pokémon being broken by the move for the move to be banned.​

Meanwhile, note that Annihilape by itself is still banned even now, because Rage Fist doesn't make any other Pokémon banworthy - even if Rage Fist can be singled out as the "reason" Annihilape is broken, you could just as easily say Annihilape is the "reason" Rage Fist is broken (it's certainly not an issue on Primeape as-is).​

Banning a Pokémon is always prioritized over banning a move; banning a move is only ever done if banning the Pokémon that abuses it isn't an option, like if the alternative is banning more than one Pokémon for reasons that can be clearly traced back to the move, or if the move has such wide distribution to begin with that it's not even an option to ban Pokémon one at a time (see evasion moves like Double Team, or things like sleep moves and Swagger in the past).

Sneasler is the only Pokémon that learns Dire Claw right now, so it has no shot at being "saved" by the notion that other Pokémon are also banworthy with it.
That can't happen unless the move is distributed more in the future, which we have no reason to count on right now, and then the Pokémon that do get the move are also broken and would end up in Ubers if nothing was done about the move, which is a pretty tall ask as well.
As a result, either the whole Sneasler is banned or the whole Sneasler stays, Dire Claw and all - just like all of the other cases of "broken move or broken Pokémon?" this Gen.

 

[BolTingBlazie]

Wait can anyone confirm if tornadus-therian is still good? I think it will still be really good, but it might feel those losses of defog and knock off a bit.

Nasty plot and offensive pivot sets should still be insanely good though.

 

[Fancy1]

here to share some sets after playing for a bit

New Magic Wand (Magearna) @ Assault Vest
Ability: Soul-Heart
Tera Type: Fairy
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 SpD
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Fleur Cannon
- Psyshock / Flash Cannon
- Volt Switch
- Shadow Ball

this shit is crazy good, you can run cm and specs too but av eats so much (most free volt vs Rotom ever), you also have amazing coverage, prob could pic a better tera but steel and fairy is busted already I like fairy for nuking ursaluna trying to set up (you need some chip to ohko)

Roll The Dice (Sneasler) @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Poison Touch / Unburden
Tera Type: Flying
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Dire Claw
- Close Combat
- U-turn

I am loving sneas, this set goes crazy on balance if you don’t want to dedicate to unburden + terrain. Tera Flying for ursaluna lol (more about the bear below) I suppose you could go unburden for a knock eater but honestly poison touch is decent when it procs. I can see something like this set being used on status spam.

Fuckin Up My Frame (Ursaluna) @ Flame Orb
Ability: Guts
Tera Type: Ground / Normal / Fairy
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Brave Nature
- Swords Dance / Bulk Up
- Headlong Rush / EQ
- Facade
- Play Rough / Protect / Fire Punch / Thunder Punch / other coverage

This thing is stupid good, today I loaded up a few games and 3/4 of them were vs trick room. Hits way too hard, good phys bulk for decent set up opportunities. I’ve found myself running priority on a lot of teams just to combat this menace. but it’s very slow so easily revengable outside of troom

———​

anyways excited to see how medevelops, Tran is super good too but it’s set is pretty self explanatory (use balloon) and sd punching gloves urshifu prob destroys stall with taunt but yeah excited to see how meta develops

Wait can anyone confirm if tornadus-therian is still good? I think it will still be really good, but it might feel those losses of defog and knock off a bit.

Nasty plot and offensive pivot sets should still be insanely good though.

haven’t tested too much but it’s got a nice speed and a ton of coverage + one of the best abilities in the game so I can see specs or np + hdb being used

 

[hidin]

Wait can anyone confirm if tornadus-therian is still good? I think it will still be really good, but it might feel those losses of defog and knock off a bit.

Nasty plot and offensive pivot sets should still be insanely good though.

It's sounds pretty good with Nasty Plot sets since it's one of the best stallbreakers, and also is a splashable and effective wincon on fat / semi-stall teams. Pivot sets sound quite okay but I think Assault Vest is quite cool, letting you scout brokens like Magearna may be a bit worth it. Tornadus-T still holds up, even though the loss of utility is a shot in the leg to it though.

 

[taziathegreat]

Thoughts after playing for a few hours

It’s a lot of stupid beats stupid going on.

Mag is without a doubt the most broken Pokémon in the tier right now and should be QB it having stored power was a mistake.

Eleiki still has real damage output problems on its coverage moves your best bet is probably life orb, don’t think it’s broken yet.

sneasler doesn’t like being outsped so much and I find myself clicking dire claw less than I’d like.

lilligant is one of the greatest boom or bust Pokémon I’ve ever seen. I been running wide lens with sleep powder and it almost guarantees a VD and a mon or two going down…. Until you miss and get OHKO’d


urshifui doesn’t seem anywhere close to broken even with sword dance makes me question if we where too harsh on single strike having to pick between loosing coverage or loosing priority is costly.

 

[taziathegreat]

It's sounds pretty good with Nasty Plot sets since it's one of the best stallbreakers, and also is a splashable and effective wincon on fat / semi-stall teams. Pivot sets sound quite okay but I think Assault Vest is quite cool, letting you scout brokens like Magearna may be a bit worth it. Tornadus-T still holds up, even though the loss of utility is a shot in the leg to it though.

I was running spec bleak storm and it’s cool, it doesn’t feel any diff than the hurricane sets honestly.

 

[JackHammer360]

Found a mon that caught about a billion strays in the death of transfer moves, muk-a lost clear smog, pursuit, and sneak. Which is a super shame for AV sets that would have got drain punch this gen. AV with knock, drain, gunk/jab, and coverage punch of your choice just doesn't look like it has the numbers to keep up right now but might be decent once some bans drop. Zama is really good, not sure if its broken yet but its a prime example of the numbers that are keeping low tier come ups down right now. Stone edge is my favorite coverage on him right now because of the flying type infestation that came with home. Seeing a ton of zapdos immediately and for good reason, the typing + static is huge rn.

Oh and arcanine-h on webs is some of the most fun I've had ever. Off webs I think you run tera normal with espeed even with how tempting tera rock is because of the versatility it provides being able to switch up what the mon is doing. The damage with rock head is there whether you tera or not so that option is really nice.

 

[Morkal]

Been messing around on the ladder for a hot minute today and I've got some early spicy takes. I'll start with sets I've been using the most frequently.

Enamorus

Enamorus @ Leftovers
Ability: Contrary
Tera Type: Ground
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Superpower
- Earth Power
- Moonblast
- Mystical Fire

My favorite set to use in OU right now, no question about it. Enamorus is really anti-meta right now and Superpower with Contrary just preys on half of the threats running around. Corviknight is setup fodder, the Defense buffs really take things to another level. STAB Moonblast + STAB Tera Ground Earth Power + Mystical Fire with Superpower is damn near perfectly tailored for this meta. Also, Kingambit has become approximately 0% worrying for me since I started using this set.

Kleavor + Samurott (I run them together)

Samurott-Hisui @ Leftovers
Ability: Sharpness
Tera Type: Fairy
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Ceaseless Edge
- Protect
- Sacred Sword
- Razor Shell

Kleavor @ Assault Vest
Ability: Sharpness
Tera Type: Fire
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Stone Axe
- U-turn
- Night Slash
- Close Combat

I run these two together and they contribute so much natural offensive pressure that it can just cause the opponent to melt under repeated blows + hazard damage. Samurott-H's Ceaseless Edge is one of the most spammable moves in the game and Sharpness makes up for its general lack of power. Leftovers + Protect with three moves is what I prefer atm. Kleavor's Stone Axe rips, and makes Rocks setting feel more viable now. Both complement each other very well. Tera Fire is for niche situations where you need to resist key hits and Assault Vest also helps with this.

Sneasler

Sneasler @ Red Card
Ability: Unburden
Tera Type: Flying
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Dire Claw
- Close Combat
- Acrobatics

Red Card with Unburden puts your opponent in a very precarious position and can, in certain situations, make getting a Swords Dance up way easier. Dire Claw is broken, Close Combat with Acrobatics is stupid too. This mon is stupid, I love it. Probably the most powerful thing in OU atm IMO.

Zamazenta-Crowned

Zamazenta-Crowned @ Rusted Shield
Ability: Dauntless Shield
Tera Type: Flying
EVs: 44 HP / 252 Atk / 212 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Howl
- Behemoth Bash
- Body Press
- Trailblaze

Zama-Hero is kinda eh right now comparatively, but Crowned is just kinda dumb in some cases. Howl + Trailblaze with STAB Behemoth Bash and STAB Body Press is easy to get off if you've taken care of stuff like Volcarona. Another really fun mon but I don't see it staying (I see Zama-Hero staying though)

Lilligant-Hisui is pretty fun, Victory Dance + Sleep Powder is nasty, but having only two attack slots with that kind of setup really stings. In all honesty I've been running Leaf Blade with Ice Spinner to get the drop on certain threats rather than just running its two STABS. Feels like a strong UU or UUBL Pokemon with a solid place in OU.

Shockingly (hah) overhyped, Regieleki is very easy to handle. I'm not seeing any of the hullabaloos about this thing, even with Tera. Enamorus is a great lure with the Tera-Ground set I mentioned above. My opinion might change once we figure out fully what's broken and what isn't, but as of right now I'm not feeling the hype vibe.

I feel like the physical sets on Hoopa-U are going to be the most deadly in this meta - STAB Hyperspace Fury is kind of insane.

A bit underwhelming, but bulky sets are quite good on Tornadus-T. I've found that it's especially vicious on rain teams with Assault Vest. Don't run offensively inclined Torn-T unless you want to be disappointed IMO.

Ursuluna hits like a truck and has plenty of options - one thing I've been saying all gen is that this is the first time since Gen 3 that I truly feel like Normal typing is insane defensively. Being immune to the negative effects of Burn is great too, not to mention movepool. Do I think it's banworthy? No, not even close, but it's still a great mon.

I'm split on this one - on one hand, Urshifu-RS has a lot of really annoying qualities but I haven't really had issues handling it. Most of the time you know exactly what it's going to do, so it feels a bit one-dimensional, despite being a very strong dimension.

I hate it with every fiber of my being.

Chien-Pao is another Pokemon that feels really underwhelming. Zama-C and Zama-H along with a few other new threats just sit on this thing day and night. I think it's fine in OU, as the pressure it exerts feels very lackluster at the moment.

Pretty underwhelming as well, although it definitely has some pretty significant uses; I'm looking forward to seeing how it evolves as the tier settles. Tera Grass Heatran is pretty fire though.

"Arcanine-Hisui used Head Smash
Arcanine-Hisui missed!"

Incredibly underrated - I cannot even begin to explain how much this thing can snowball with Chilling Neigh. Really great Pokemon that handles quite a few potent OU threats nicely. Tera also helps with its defensive-typing woes as well. I really hope people start seeing the potential in Glastrier and how it's far better in SV OU than SS OU IMO.

I really want to like Hisui-Goodra more, but the physical fighting-type weakness really bugs me. Definitely a good defensive mon but you have to support it. It feels like a jack of all dragons - but Steel / Dragon as a typing with those stats does carry it pretty hard if you keep it healthy to the mid-late game.

Great offensive synergy and can sit on most Zama variants - fun mon, Volcanion is good right now.

Underwhelming but definitely has a good niche, it's just overshadowed by Zama-C right now. I think it'll be a solid A- or A tier OU mon once the dust settles in the meta a fair bit.

This is the first generation where I've seen Lando-T basically kinda just... exist. It feels overshadowed by Great Tusk, and more often than not I just capitalize on Intimidate rather than be affected by it. Great glue but, I'm not feeling Lando-T as much right now.

Great mon before, still a great mon now. Moltres-G has a problem of either feeling like deadweight or being a team staple, so it's very mixed. Better overall than last gen though IMO.

It exists.

Not really feeling it either, also just kind of exists.​

 

[Yung Peestain]

Sleep Clause as it's implemented on Showdown simply makes the act of putting an opponents to sleep fail if a Pokemon on their team is already asleep. So Dire Claw does not bypass Sleep Clause.

My bad, I was assuming the original question was asking whether it *should* fall under sleep clause, not if it already fell under it as it stands.

 

[Eeveeto]

After a little more than 10 battles, my conclusion for now is that there are only 2 clearly Broken Mons allowed in the Meta:
1. Regieleki, cause the Grounds that do stop him (Iron Treads, Ting-Lu, Clodsire, Gastro, etc.) are otherwise not very solid.
2. Ursaluna. Doesn,t need that much support and 2HKOs every single Mon, even Dondozo, lol. Very insane Mon despite the low speed. Doesn,t really need Trick Room, will abuse and KO any Mon that can,t KO it first.

Probably Magearna is broken too, but in the few battles (the majority of which did have Magearna) it didn,t give me ANY problems, though that might have to do with the fact I had the perfect counter for all Stored Power sets and most non Stored Power sets too (it was one OU Mon with a specific set). This might change when I start seeing Specs variants, however.
Chien Pao is extremely strong and should be monitored, but it doesn,t reach the same power level Regieleki and Ursaluna have.
I was very well prepared (not even intentionally) for both Zamazents, so they don,t signal me brokeness for now either.
Seen 1 Sneasler and the guy using it forfeited before sending it, so no opinion for now. I did have a great counter for it though (Covert Cloak was part of it).
The one Hisuian Lilligant I faced died on switch-in, so no evidences found. Still, is the type of Mons that is almost broken when it hits, but 80 Accuracy makes it really unreliable.
Hoopa-U is a Mon I don,t want to have in the meta in the long run, but in this extremely offensive meta is mediocre, even vs my team which wasn,t too offensive.

Kanto Zapdos with Tera Water in Rain isn,t broken but really strong, more people should try it. Gastrodon and Clodsire among others should rise as a result, maybe they will force Regieleki to give up the Tera Ice and start using Tera Grass (though Clodsire doesn,t care for that either).

 

[coral fan]

Why Poison Jab when Sneasler gets Gunk Shot?

ur right, i just dont like inaccurate moves but gunk is a clear 2nd choice after direclaw