Dusk Mage Necrozma
formerly XenonHero126
What I meant is that it's not in policy to appoint you in the first place
Although, Finch is tier leader. He can do whatever he wants.
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Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion
- Thread starter TPP
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Although, Finch is tier leader. He can do whatever he wants.
alephgalactus
Banned deucer.
I mean, what’s more on-brand for a Pokémon battling site than staking your position on a Pokémon battle?
Where can I find the replays of finches first title defense?
Clicked dragon tail
alephgalactus
Banned deucer.
If you can sweep the entire Council without losing, you unironically deserve a spot. They’re not in charge just because they know things about balancing a meta, they’re also some of the game’s strongest players.
Basically an actual elite 4 lmao
And props to mudkipnerd for taking a game off of finch, that’s no small feat.
Any thoughts on sticky web? Losing its best setters (even though they weren’t that good in the first place) has hurt the playstyle a ton, but the difficulty in removing hazards makes me want to believe it could still work, even if it isn’t meta
As someone who has played a ton of webs this gen already, I'll give my own opinion.
Masquerain is actually pretty sick, it is a webs setter that has intimidate, decent STABs (one of which goes through subs) in the current meta and access to Hydro pump and Ice beam. Which if it still has its sash allows it to beat D-Nite and Chienpao. It also can Tera Ghost to spinblock + it beats the best spinner in the tier in Great Tusk.
The biggest problem with webs is just that so many things are so fast, that webs doesn't matter anyways. Not too mention you're gonna want at least Mas + Gholdengo + Great Tusk/Iron treads (to beat other webs/not die to Hazard spam). This means you basically lose to Chi-Yu if it's gets in unless you stack your team with Chi-Yu answers in which case you lose your best abusers for the most part or you lose to Chien-Pao/Espathra/Anihilape/other broken threat of the month.
My favorite webs Mon however is Band Raptor. 2hkos the entire with BB/Double Edge and with most people's steels being Gholdengo/Scizor they can't stop it.
Tusk likes webs as it likes Pao/specs-Yu to be slower than it so it can hit them hard. Alongside allowing it to beat treads and non Baloon GholdenGo as well.
Overall I'd give webs about a C+ in viability. Good but not particularly amazing nor terrible either.
Beyond chi-yu and shed tail what are people still looking to be banned potentially? Asking cause curious and I want to see how other people are feeling about some of the other new additions.
Annihilape is pretty crazy with Tera allowed and some argue for Espathra as well. On the fringes, you can see discussion of Roaring Moon, Dragonite, Gholdengo, and Garganacl as well, but none have overwhelming amounts of support or evidence.
Honestly, I'd love to see Annhilape/Rage Fist (more so Rage Fist) to be nuked. Rage Fist is such a ridiculous move, it's Rage but y'know... Actually good.
Aside from that, I'd point my finger to Tera... But not Tera in general, there's one specific Tera that really stands out from the rest. Tera Normal.
My reasoning for this is that defensively, Normal has only 1 weakness -- Fighting. Everything else is neutral, or in the case of Ghost, ineffective. Offensively, it absolutely makes two specific moves absolutely disgusting; Extreme Speed and Boomburst.
As I'm sure most of you either have played with, or against, Tera Normal E Speed (either in OU or UU!), it just... It's so stupid to deal with. You get a free 120 power +2 Priority move that allows you to outrun other +1 Priority users. If you don't have a Ghost, Ghost Tera, or can't burn the E Speed user, they can keep clicking E Speed.
Boomburst is a different beast altogether. Base 140 power (210 after Tera), ignores Substitute. It's an entirely terrifying move to switch into, unless you're a highly resistant (or immune) SpDef wall. While it isn't a +2 Priority move like E Speed, two major mons that can make use of it (Toxtricity and Noivern) can absolutely run train through teams in the right circumstances.
However, in the case of E Speed, a lot of people will bring up "just use x Steel/Rock types!" The unfortunate problem with that is this: Consider the 3 Pokemon that can make use of E Speed in the game right now; Dragonite, Lucario, and Arcanine. Arcanine is the least threatening because it has 0 reliable ways of getting an Attack increase. Dragonite has Dragon Dance (which also gives speed), and Lucario has Swords Dance. If we look at the argument of using a Steel/Rock, both have access to Earthquake. Lucario and Arcanine have access to Close Combat, but Gholdengo can deny that. However, Lucario and Arcanine both have access to moves like Crunch, Flare Blitz, Flamethrower, Fire Blast, etc.. No matter which way you can twist it, outside of the 4 Move Slot Syndrome, all three have moves that can deal with incoming threats to a Tera Normal E Speed sweep.
My problem with Tera Normal hinges mostly on E Speed, but as someone who's played around with Tera Normal Boomburst, I can't deny its validity. It's an insanely scary thing, and getting hard cheesed by E Speed just leaves a sour taste in my mouth. So much so that I've actually resorted to playing with bulky Talonflame as a physical bulky mon to try and punish E Speed mons.
Aside from that, I'd point my finger to Tera... But not Tera in general, there's one specific Tera that really stands out from the rest. Tera Normal.
My reasoning for this is that defensively, Normal has only 1 weakness -- Fighting. Everything else is neutral, or in the case of Ghost, ineffective. Offensively, it absolutely makes two specific moves absolutely disgusting; Extreme Speed and Boomburst.
As I'm sure most of you either have played with, or against, Tera Normal E Speed (either in OU or UU!), it just... It's so stupid to deal with. You get a free 120 power +2 Priority move that allows you to outrun other +1 Priority users. If you don't have a Ghost, Ghost Tera, or can't burn the E Speed user, they can keep clicking E Speed.
Boomburst is a different beast altogether. Base 140 power (210 after Tera), ignores Substitute. It's an entirely terrifying move to switch into, unless you're a highly resistant (or immune) SpDef wall. While it isn't a +2 Priority move like E Speed, two major mons that can make use of it (Toxtricity and Noivern) can absolutely run train through teams in the right circumstances.
However, in the case of E Speed, a lot of people will bring up "just use x Steel/Rock types!" The unfortunate problem with that is this: Consider the 3 Pokemon that can make use of E Speed in the game right now; Dragonite, Lucario, and Arcanine. Arcanine is the least threatening because it has 0 reliable ways of getting an Attack increase. Dragonite has Dragon Dance (which also gives speed), and Lucario has Swords Dance. If we look at the argument of using a Steel/Rock, both have access to Earthquake. Lucario and Arcanine have access to Close Combat, but Gholdengo can deny that. However, Lucario and Arcanine both have access to moves like Crunch, Flare Blitz, Flamethrower, Fire Blast, etc.. No matter which way you can twist it, outside of the 4 Move Slot Syndrome, all three have moves that can deal with incoming threats to a Tera Normal E Speed sweep.
My problem with Tera Normal hinges mostly on E Speed, but as someone who's played around with Tera Normal Boomburst, I can't deny its validity. It's an insanely scary thing, and getting hard cheesed by E Speed just leaves a sour taste in my mouth. So much so that I've actually resorted to playing with bulky Talonflame as a physical bulky mon to try and punish E Speed mons.
Not to be rude or anything, but why not use one of the multiple great ghost types that we have? Especially annihilape, which has stab CC to punish any potential normal teras.
This one of the worst metagames I’ve ever played. So fucking brainless with Chi-Yu, Tera, and Shed Tail running a muck. Feels cheap and unplayable. With Chi-Yu being the main culprit. I literally played a game where fucking Chi-Yu deals 98% with -2 Specs Tera boosted Overheat on my Dirge. WHY ARE WE STILL LETTING THIS THING LOOSE? Chi-Yu Sun especially feels really cheap. Just casually one-shotting or 2HKOing resists with even Scarf Flamethrowers. A suspect test on it would be a waste of time, especially since a majority of the community agrees that it is way too much for the tier. Its like if Dracovish had base 100 speed and no immunities to its main STAB besides the garbage Flash Fire mons. Its in a horrible state rn and I do not want to play this metagame til everything is sorted out. Sorry for the vent but this feels even worse than Pre-Dynamax Ban SS with Tera and a few of the broken shit added to the tier.
TL;DR: Get the fish tf outta here
TL;DR: Get the fish tf outta here
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While I know it can be frustrating when not prepared, but terra normal is very counterable. We have better ghost pokemon then ever. Great fighting choices. I have a feeling your teams aren't typically using these types? Dragonite is definitely a threat but so many are running EQ/E-speed/Roost/Dragon Dancethat an air balloon Gholdengo can start attacking, setup, or status with say twave.
On another note... where is the SV sample team thread? I just spent 20 mins trying to find it for reference and I can't locate it.
Red Raven
I COULD BE BANNED!
Agree with this. Chi Yu is making the tier incredibly unbearable. Your 'resists' just dies anyway because of that stupid ability. It's like you need to put Bambi (Ting Lu) on every team just to be somewhat safe and even then it dies if it's under sun. And while we're at it, we might as well get rid of that damn lizard. I didn't realize that the thing actually had regenerator
No offense, but y'all aren't seriously planning on keeping the thing that blocks all hazard removal, are you?
Gonna disagree here. Orthoworm is plenty good enough to faciliate shed tails, and gets hazards and a ground immunity as to not be entirely deadweight on a team (a la the Revival Blessing mons as an example). With Tera still around, the Shed Tail sub + Tera gives you opportunity for two easy free turns. Combine that with mons that abuse things such as booster energy, or block phazing with their abilties, Orthoworm Shed Tail strats are just as uncompetetive as Cyclizar ones. I think the key word here is uncompetetive. Cycilzar is clearly broken becuase of it's ability to Shed Tail ad infinitum, but the ability to baton pass substitutes in one move still facilitates uncompetetive strategies and I think the council would be doing the playerbase a big disservice by overlooking this just because Cyclizar so obviously more broken. There's tons of top ladder teams using Orthoworm Shed Tail over Cyclizar, but the broken strategies they facilitate remain the same.
Wont comment the rest of the post, but -2 Specs Overheat dealing 98% to Skeledirge is due to Unaware ignoring drops too. Its still a lot, but in practice its +0 Overheat, not -2.
I don't think anyone is claiming Worm can't facilitate shed tail, but that it isn't anywhere near the ease or ridiculousness of Cyclizar, which has a trifecta of utility on top of this with Knock and Spin on top of Shed Tail, and regenerator lets it generate many shed tails.
Orthworm is a far more "commit to this" strategy that also requires more careful positioning due to its lack of reliable recovery. On top of this it lacks a real offensive presence and is itself a fairly unspectacular hazard setter. Again, not saying Orthworm strats are unviable at all (there exist plenty of successful strats with the mon), but it simply doesn't hold up as a problematic abuser of shed tail compared to Cyclizar. So I respectfully disagree that it is anywhere closw to concerning next to the motorcycle lizard.
Roaring moon i think has to go, maybe also annihilape.
Also, not many people saying this but imo Garganacl and Dondozo need to go, they are obnoxious and toxic for a healthy metagame in their own ways imo.
That’s not really the point. It’s not nearly as efficient or broken in doing so. Being good enough to facilitate does not mean it’s efficient enough to do so in the same way Cyclizar does, leading to blatant abuse.
I just disagree with this statement. They’re fine, maybe even good. But they don’t mirror the level of accessibility and convenience at all. Orthworm has been a good, but not great or stand-out Pokemon. What they enable can be problematic, but this is also much more abusable and can be limited easier.
I’ve seen 3-4 teams (2 of these very consistently though) and they’re just not as cohesive as Cyclizar ones. There’s a few trade-offs, but the worm isn’t even a B+/A- option in my book. It’s more middle of the pack and I don’t view these exploits with it as uncompetitive.
I’ll happily bring it up again as a debate internally — I don’t mind the move going if there’s support, but it doesn’t align with how I personally see the metagame at all from playing.
It got the least support of everything mentioned on the survey and no ban votes last time. Maybe it’ll eventually go, but there are very clearly more pressing issues right now. Perhaps don’t phrase questions like it has to go now or we are doing some major disservice, because that’s just not in-line with public perception either.
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