Resource RU Viability Rankings Thread

[Cheryl.]

Rotom-Fan from C+ to B-
This is a nom I've been wanting to do for a while, and I think in this meta it's finally time to nominate Rotom-Fan for a rise to B-. I've found Rotom-Fan to be very splashable lately as it functions as one of the few Durant counters (Nobody runs Rock Slide anymore), a Fighting check, a Flying check, and a status spreader all in one slot. It can provide your team momentum with Volt Switch, has some offensive capabilities in Thunderbolt and Air Slash, and Will-O-Wisp is an awesome move in general to wear down the opposing team and cripple physical attackers, especially ones Rotom-S can switch into, like Mega Steelix. It's lack of reliable recovery is also mitigated a bit by Pain Split, which can be pretty cool to wear down mons and also get a ton of HP back from mons like Alomomola. In a meta where Durant is at it's best and Fighting types are everywhere, Rotom-S thrives a lot by checking a lot of these threats, but the reason why I'm not nominating it for higher than B- is mainly because of it's weakness to Stealth Rock, which can severely reduce it's pivoting capabilities thanks to Pain Split not being that reliable. But overall, right now Rotom-Fan can thrive due to the number of things it can check, mainly Durant, Fighting types, and Flying types like Fletchinder, and a lot of teams can appreciate it's pivoting capabilities, and overall I think it's a great mon with some support needed to fully work. Rotom-S for B-

 

[tehy]

Rotom-Fan from C+ to B-
This is a nom I've been wanting to do for a while, and I think in this meta it's finally time to nominate Rotom-Fan for a rise to B-. I've found Rotom-Fan to be very splashable lately as it functions as one of the few Durant counters (Nobody runs Rock Slide anymore), a Fighting check, a Flying check, and a status spreader all in one slot. It can provide your team momentum with Volt Switch, has some offensive capabilities in Thunderbolt and Air Slash, and Will-O-Wisp is an awesome move in general to wear down the opposing team and cripple physical attackers, especially ones Rotom-S can switch into, like Mega Steelix. It's lack of reliable recovery is also mitigated a bit by Pain Split, which can be pretty cool to wear down mons and also get a ton of HP back from mons like Alomomola. In a meta where Durant is at it's best and Fighting types are everywhere, Rotom-S thrives a lot by checking a lot of these threats, but the reason why I'm not nominating it for higher than B- is mainly because of it's weakness to Stealth Rock, which can severely reduce it's pivoting capabilities thanks to Pain Split not being that reliable. But overall, right now Rotom-Fan can thrive due to the number of things it can check, mainly Durant, Fighting types, and Flying types like Fletchinder, and a lot of teams can appreciate it's pivoting capabilities, and overall I think it's a great mon with some support needed to fully work. Rotom-S for B-

i like rotom-s but i'd just like to offer up my counterpoint

to put it simply, rotom-s, even the defensive version (Especially the defensive version!) is real annoying to switch into, but it kinda sucks at switching in unless it's against a few things. The things it takes on (virizion also a notable one although it takes 1 air slash, you mentioned durant and fletch), are really important to take on. (SubBU brav is more solid than it's given credit for nowadays, this thing checks it too)

But overall I feel like it gets worn down really easily especially with rocks, so you could easily have trouble with anything that it's meant to check / counter.

 

[EonX]

Sawk: I can see (and understand) a lot of the points about Sawk being dropped, but I'm going to have to disagree here. Sawk has so few safe switch-ins, it's not really funny. Yeah, it needs hazard control to help it some against balance, but it's still finding decently reliable switch-in opportunities against such teams. It has two moves that are incredibly easy to spam at most times (Close Combat and Knock Off) that make it even more challenging to switch into since you can't just assume it will CC (even though it will about 80% of the time) Add to that the fact that it has Poison Jab to dump Fairies (CC already easily 2HKOes Diancie) and Zen Headbutt to trash bulky Poison-types, and it has all the coverage it could ever ask for in 4 moves. And if you're worried about Sturdy being broken vs. offense, you can just lead with it and probably get 1-2 kills because of how limited offensive Fighting resists that actually outspeed Sawk are. I think it's fine in A-. Its primary use is a wallbreaker and if you can keep Sturdy active via hazard control or smart pressure on hazard setters, then that's just a great added bonus that no other wallbreaker even has a chance of having.

Rotom-S: I put this on a team not all that long ago, and it worked out a lot better than I was expecting. It's one of the more reliable Durant checks considering it doesn't just drop flat against a common move (Rock Slide is NOT common) and it has the capacity to soft check a lot of the Fighting-types in the tier as well as Mega Steelix. Having a Stealth Rock weakness absolutely sucks as I feel that forces it to run T-Bolt considering it won't want to switch out much unless it has to, thus ruining the primary use for Volt Switch on a defensive Pokemon like Rotom-S. As unreliable as Pain Split is, you absolutely need it to keep Rotom-S or your hazard control from being pressured super easily. At least give Rotom-S a fighting chance if your hazard control goes down and / or Rotom-S is pressured by multiple threats. I think it's good enough for B- rank. It checks a ton of top level threats, but also needs a fair amount of support to stay alive as long as possible. It's not for every team, but it will perform quite well on teams that can afford to support it. And let's be real here; anything that has a fighting chance against Durant (and Mega Steelix for that matter) is not a bad option right now if it can do something worthwhile outside of that.

 

[tehy]

Sawk: I can see (and understand) a lot of the points about Sawk being dropped, but I'm going to have to disagree here. Sawk has so few safe switch-ins, it's not really funny. Yeah, it needs hazard control to help it some against balance, but it's still finding decently reliable switch-in opportunities against such teams. It has two moves that are incredibly easy to spam at most times (Close Combat and Knock Off) that make it even more challenging to switch into since you can't just assume it will CC (even though it will about 80% of the time) Add to that the fact that it has Poison Jab to dump Fairies (CC already easily 2HKOes Diancie) and Zen Headbutt to trash bulky Poison-types, and it has all the coverage it could ever ask for in 4 moves. And if you're worried about Sturdy being broken vs. offense, you can just lead with it and probably get 1-2 kills because of how limited offensive Fighting resists that actually outspeed Sawk are. I think it's fine in A-. Its primary use is a wallbreaker and if you can keep Sturdy active via hazard control or smart pressure on hazard setters, then that's just a great added bonus that no other wallbreaker even has a chance of having

sorry to be dominating in this thread a bit now, but just to ask: why would I use Sawk > Medicham / Gallade? That to me is the main issue.

For starters, Medicham's much, much more powerful... or is it?
252+ Atk Pure Power Medicham High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Jirachi: 285-336 (70.5 - 83.1%)
252+ Atk Choice Band Sawk Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Jirachi: 313-370 (77.4 - 91.5%)

dang. looks like I was wrong, although Medicham is nearly as powerful. Still, when you factor in the Zen Headbutt STAB I

wait a minute

what is that Choice Band doing there?



252+ Atk Sawk Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Jirachi: 210-247 (51.9 - 61.1%)

...oh.

so yeah, you can basically have a scarf medicham at about CB sawk's level of power (with Trick for extra wallbreaking awesomeness). And of course, zen headbutt STAB is pretty nice; for all of sawk's great coverage, zenbutt takes care of the majority of other stuff, does a ton while being neutral and semi-hard to take advantage of. Mainly sucks against Spiritomb and now Hoopa, which are two of Sawk's advantages, but the former sorta ends up walling both if phys.D and the latter takes a ton from Ice Punch. Medicham also has the ability to just BP for momentum.

Anyhow, my overall point is that, sure Sawk has niches. Coverage, 5 base speed over Band and 10% power over Scarf, Sturdy, Knock Off, not a part psychic type. But Medicham just has such overwhelming pros. And by the way, Gallade also has access to Knock Off, which eats a lot of Sawk's niche right there too.

 

[EonX]

sorry to be dominating in this thread a bit now, but just to ask: why would I use Sawk > Medicham / Gallade? That to me is the main issue.

For starters, Medicham's much, much more powerful... or is it?
252+ Atk Pure Power Medicham High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Jirachi: 285-336 (70.5 - 83.1%)
252+ Atk Choice Band Sawk Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Jirachi: 313-370 (77.4 - 91.5%)

dang. looks like I was wrong, although Medicham is nearly as powerful. Still, when you factor in the Zen Headbutt STAB I

wait a minute

what is that Choice Band doing there?



252+ Atk Sawk Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Jirachi: 210-247 (51.9 - 61.1%)

...oh.

so yeah, you can basically have a scarf medicham at about CB sawk's level of power (with Trick for extra wallbreaking awesomeness). And of course, zen headbutt STAB is pretty nice; for all of sawk's great coverage, zenbutt takes care of the majority of other stuff, does a ton while being neutral and semi-hard to take advantage of. Mainly sucks against Spiritomb and now Hoopa, which are two of Sawk's advantages, but the former sorta ends up walling both if phys.D and the latter takes a ton from Ice Punch. Medicham also has the ability to just BP for momentum.

Anyhow, my overall point is that, sure Sawk has niches. Coverage, 5 base speed over Band and 10% power over Scarf, Sturdy, Knock Off, not a part psychic type. But Medicham just has such overwhelming pros. And by the way, Gallade also has access to Knock Off, which eats a lot of Sawk's niche right there too.

This would indeed be impressive if it weren't for the fact Scarf Medicham can't afford to use Adamant unless it wants to lose to Jolteon, Aerodactyl, and Scarf Tyrantrum. Granted the former two are not that big of an issue as they aren't super common, but outspeeding Scarf Tyrantrum is one of Scarf Medicham's greatest traits. So, this is what it actually looks like:

252 Atk Pure Power Medicham High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Jirachi: 259-306 (64.1 - 75.7%)
252+ Atk Choice Band Sawk Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Jirachi: 313-370 (77.4 - 91.5%)

Bit more of a stark contrast. The primary reason to use Sawk over Medicham / Gallade is to have a Dark resistance while still maintaining just about all of the wallbreaking power Gallade and Medicham present. It has slightly better physical bulk than Gallade (magnified by the Dark resistance) and a safer STAB to spam than Medicham does, lessening its reliance on coverage against Protect users like Alomomola and certain variants of Blastoise. And Choice Band is THE set Sawk should always use and the one it should be ranked for. Scarf is absolute garbage due to being too weak overall and easily walled. So, here's what it has over Gallade and Medicham respectively

Medicham: Safer STAB, Knock Off, Dark resistance, 5 more Speed, marginally higher bulk
Gallade: Dark resistance, 5 more Speed, better physical bulk

And just for the hell of it, Sawk has safer STAB, actual half-decent (tho still not great) bulk to use that Dark resist, and Zen Headbutt over Hitmonlee.

 

[tehy]

This would indeed be impressive if it weren't for the fact Scarf Medicham can't afford to use Adamant unless it wants to lose to Jolteon, Aerodactyl, and Scarf Tyrantrum. Granted the former two are not that big of an issue as they aren't super common, but outspeeding Scarf Tyrantrum is one of Scarf Medicham's greatest traits. So, this is what it actually looks like:

252 Atk Pure Power Medicham High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Jirachi: 259-306 (64.1 - 75.7%)
252+ Atk Choice Band Sawk Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Jirachi: 313-370 (77.4 - 91.5%)

Bit more of a stark contrast. The primary reason to use Sawk over Medicham / Gallade is to have a Dark resistance while still maintaining just about all of the wallbreaking power Gallade and Medicham present. It has slightly better physical bulk than Gallade (magnified by the Dark resistance) and a safer STAB to spam than Medicham does, lessening its reliance on coverage against Protect users like Alomomola and certain variants of Blastoise. And Choice Band is THE set Sawk should always use and the one it should be ranked for. Scarf is absolute garbage due to being too weak overall and easily walled. So, here's what it has over Gallade and Medicham respectively

Medicham: Safer STAB, Knock Off, Dark resistance, 5 more Speed, marginally higher bulk
Gallade: Dark resistance, 5 more Speed, better physical bulk

And just for the hell of it, Sawk has safer STAB, actual half-decent (tho still not great) bulk to use that Dark resist, and Zen Headbutt over Hitmonlee.

i mean, adamant scarf is much faster than adamant band sawk and still nearly as powerful. not exactly -optimal- but just showing off how Medicham can emasculate Sawk.

Also, Medicham can still go ahead and equip a Choice Band if it wants and be far more powerful, with a strong-ass secondary STAB, as well as Baton Pass and Bullet Punch as solid options. And while HJK isn't so nice against protecters and with ghosts in the back, it's still ridiculously strong - and you've got the secondary stab to whip out if necessary.

Like, cool, Sawk has those things (and sturdy!). But in reality, it doesn't do so well against many of the dark-types in this tier, the 5 more speed or bulk or safer STAB just aren't that game-changing. And with Gallade, it gets even slimmer of a niche - as you mention, Hitmonlee competes with it too. So Sawk just feels like it's incredibly meh - i'd rather use cham and not have to predict at all, than think 'should i use zen for the amoonguss, jab for the aroma, or knock for the ghost' - i'll take Medicham Zen Headbutt for 400.

 

[Punchshroom]

Yeah Sawk's Dark resistance is compromised by the fact that Absol is the only Dark-type in the tier it really checks better than the other Fightings; all the other Dark-types are both faster and have alternate STAB moves to hit Sawk with. I mean I guess it resists Spiritomb's Pursuit but aside from that, Sawk faces stiff competition with Medicham (far stronger, requires less prediction), Hitmonlee (similiar power and Speed, exchanges Zen Headbutt for coveted priority), and Gallade (identical coverage with Psychic STAB, similiar power and Speed, makes effective use of boosting moves). Not that Sawk is bad or anything since it has its individual advantages (mostly Sturdy), just that RU's Fighting-types have always been pretty excellent, and Sawk feels like it's on the lower end on the spectrum in comparison. It feels about on par with Gallade at best imo, B+ seems about right for it.

 

[phantom]

Bronzong - B-

Registeel - B+

I think Bronzong and Registeel should switch ranks. With Pursuits flying around everywhere, defensive Bronzong is made a liability more often than not. Registeel's significantly greater bulk and lack of pursuit weakness allows it to pull its weight more often. In addition, I would say Bronzong's Pursuit weakness is just too big to ignore and simply overshadows its defensive merits over Registeel (mainly the ground immune) since even defensive teams will opt for Pursuit because of Hoopa and other anti-defensive pkmn such as Sigilyph. Bronzong also falters due to new meta trends, such as Magnet Rise Magneton that can effectively trap non-hp fire variants, while Registeel takes very little from Magneton's Thunderbolt and wears at it with Seismic Toss. Registeel, unlike Bronzong, has the benefit of going fully specially defensive while still having the physical bulk to sponge Head Smashes without an issue. This makes Registeel a more proficient wall overall since it can absorb Electric-type attacks and check other special attackers such as Exploud, Slowking, Vivillon, and Choice Specs Meloetta more easily. Additionally, with Venusaur being an extremely powerful wallbreaker, Registeel being able to wall Venusuar in its sleep (literally), makes it extremely useful. Registeel also doesn't completely fold to Hoopa and Sigilyph like Bronzong does thanks to Thunder Wave, which is pretty awesome as well. Generally speaking, every Registeel will run Stealth Rock + Seismic Toss with the last two slots varying from to team to team which can include Toxic + Protect, Toxic + Thunder Wave, or Thunder Wave + Iron Head. So it's capable of functioning very well on balance and stall builds and can suit its team's needs with a bit of flexibility. So yeah, not being made a liability by the extremely common Pursuit and checking/countering several top threats, many of which it does more adequately than Bronzong, warrants a swap in the rankings between it and Registeel imo.

 

[Take Azelfie]

Jolteon
B ---> B+
Yes I know you would rather have Manectric's Overheat/Flamethrower but Jolteon's speed tier is extremely valuable, especially when talking about outspeeding Durant as well as Jolteon having Signal Beam which can be a bit better if the team you are using has a weakness to Meloetta or Sneasel. Not to mention SubPass is actually pretty good as there are a lot oppurtunities that an opponent will try to Sucker Punch or set up hazards because the switch is "too obvious." Short story short, Jolteon faces competition from Manectric but has enough traits to make it worth using over Manectric

oh yh and also agreeing with that Bron and Regi nomination except I wouldn't drop Bronzong that low because having Levitate is very nice. It also has some splashability like Screens, TR, and HP Fire lure

 

[Ramy]

Predicting that durant is getting the boot from the tier, and seeing how that shiny S tier position is just lying there waiting for this one pokemon, its about time someone nominated him.

Flygon is a tier defining legend in ru as it plays so many roles that its extremely easy to put on your team. Flygons fantastic movepool, ability, and functionality made it a recommended choice for any team. The roles it plays can fit into any team as it can be a bulky hazard remover, offensive hazard remover, choice scarfer, choice bander, choice specs, life orb, even random stall can be placed on flygons position. Average stats dont negate what flygon has to offer as its wonderful moveset of: earth power, draco meteor, roost, defog, fire blast, outrage, earthquake, u-turn, rock slide, toxic, tailwind, even boomburst if you are that guy. Its typing is also able to check threats such as the likes of emboar, delphox, any electric type, aggron, rhyperior, and mega steelix. \

Tho flygon doesnt always have its own way, it does have flaws like the average stats i mentioned earlier which it doesnt really excel at one thing with stats. Flygon cant manage to fit all of its roles at once since movesets can be limiting for its role. Finally ice types is its poison as any ice attack either roughly damages or can straight up ko it which can be a bad position for its place.

Overall i believe flygon's pros can outmatch its cons. Its role as being multiple things really excels its position for many teams. It can be bulky and check pokemon, it can be an attacker and obliterate things, or just be a fancy staller, and its so easy to fit on a team. As being a tier defining pokemon with many things to support i nominate Flygon to S.

 

[aurora]

The problem with Flygon is that its Ice weakness is so prominent that it is easily lured in by things it is supposed to check or get free Defogs on, such as Jolteon and Manectric. Meanwhile, Mega Glalie and regular Abomasnow (among other things) make Choice Scarf and Choice Band variants that have just revenge killed something cry with the threat of Ice Shard and can pressure Flygon very effectively if you are able to predict obvious Flygon switch-ins by double switching. Flygon's average stats are also pretty bad for it as they mean it can't really do anything else much better than other Pokemon. Choice Scarf Flygon wishes it was stronger, Choice Band Flygon wishes it was faster, defensive Defog wishes it had more bulk and offensive Defog wishes its Special Attack were higher and that it did not have to switch out everytime it uses Draco Meteor.

For the record, Boomburst, Rock Slide and Tailwind are almost always suboptimal options on Flygon. Boomburst gives you no useful coverage and is weaker than Earth Power and Draco Meteor almost all the time, Tailwind takes up a precious moveslot and Rock Slide is only useful if you absolutely need a Fletchinder lure (if you aren't using Flying resists, such as Tyrantrum or Mega Steelix, you're doing it wrong). Meanwhile, Choice Specs Flygon is absolute garbage and Life Orb is synonymous with entry hazard remover (the reason why physical LO defogger isn't used is because Earthquake hits Mega Steelix for considerably less damage).

I am not denying that Flygon is a good Defogger thanks to its immunity to both forms of Spikes and resistance to Stealth Rock, which means it takes a pittance from switching in on the entry hazards it is supposed to remove. What I am denying is that it is good enough at what it does to be moved up to S Rank, because there are enough situations where I would rather use Blastoise as my entry hazard remover (teams that rely on Spikes), Togetic (bulkier teams that are able to cope with Stealth Rock being up or are able to dissuade hazard setters in some way), or no entry hazard remover at all (very offensive teams that are able to keep hazards from being set up). With this in mind, I think it is fine staying in A+.

 

[EonX]

Jolteon: As long as Durant sits in the tier, I can agree to putting Jolteon in B+ rank. The extra Speed it has over Manectric is crucial when it comes to outspeeding the likes of Durant, Dugtrio, Choice Scarf Emboar, +1 Scrafty, and Virizion (you're at least able to chip it on the way out, which can sometimes help a revenge killer later) Jolteon's issue lies in the fact that it has trouble with bulky Grass-types due to a lack of powerful coverage on them, but I feel Jolteon should be used as more of a cleaner / revenge killer anyway whereas Manectric is best employed as a balance breaker. Obviously, Jolteon also has access to Substitute + Baton Pass which can allow teammates to get easy access to the battle and one can even use Baton Pass on Choice sets to prevent Mega Steelix and other such Ground-types from sapping the momentum of Jolteon's team. I think it's fine to rise to B+ for now. I think there's enough threats and things that it can do that Manectric can't to warrant a rise.

Flygon: As fantastic as Flygon is, I just can't get behind it for S rank. It's one of, if not the top, A+ rank Pokemon right now because of how splashable it is and how effective it is at removing hazards, revenge killing, and even wallbreaking. However, despite this amazing versatility and effectiveness, it doesn't outright blow you away by doing any one thing. And this comes back to its balanced, but average stat distribution. No stat below base 80 means it can do a lot of things depending on the needs of the team it's on, but it also means that it can't be the absolute best at any given offensive or defensive role outside of providing hazard removal. Now on the plus side, it is effective at all the things it does, but it isn't the absolute best wallbreaker, revenge killer, or defensive mon. It's just really good at all of these things. If it was the best at any one of these things while still being really solid with the other roles, I could and would get behind it for S rank. But the fact of the matter is that it's not the best at any one thing, but just really good. Defog is great, but also means you can't really use your own Spikes to wear down fat teams, which often makes players contemplate and / or use Blastoise for hazard removal as it is very competent and allows the use of Spikes by the user. For these reasons, I feel Flygon should remain in A+ rank. It's a fantastic Pokemon that can fit on just about any team, but it comes with mild (but very bearable) constraints and doesn't excel at any one job it does outside of Defog (which is why it should make A+ easily)

 

[Hopeee]

Bronzong - B-

Registeel - B+

I think Bronzong and Registeel should switch ranks. With Pursuits flying around everywhere, defensive Bronzong is made a liability more often than not. Registeel's significantly greater bulk and lack of pursuit weakness allows it to pull its weight more often. In addition, I would say Bronzong's Pursuit weakness is just too big to ignore and simply overshadows its defensive merits over Registeel (mainly the ground immune) since even defensive teams will opt for Pursuit because of Hoopa and other anti-defensive pkmn such as Sigilyph. Bronzong also falters due to new meta trends, such as Magnet Rise Magneton that can effectively trap non-hp fire variants, while Registeel takes very little from Magneton's Thunderbolt and wears at it with Seismic Toss. Registeel, unlike Bronzong, has the benefit of going fully specially defensive while still having the physical bulk to sponge Head Smashes without an issue. This makes Registeel a more proficient wall overall since it can absorb Electric-type attacks and check other special attackers such as Exploud, Slowking, Vivillon, and Choice Specs Meloetta more easily. Additionally, with Venusaur being an extremely powerful wallbreaker, Registeel being able to wall Venusuar in its sleep (literally), makes it extremely useful. Registeel also doesn't completely fold to Hoopa and Sigilyph like Bronzong does thanks to Thunder Wave, which is pretty awesome as well. Generally speaking, every Registeel will run Stealth Rock + Seismic Toss with the last two slots varying from to team to team which can include Toxic + Protect, Toxic + Thunder Wave, or Thunder Wave + Iron Head. So it's capable of functioning very well on balance and stall builds and can suit its team's needs with a bit of flexibility. So yeah, not being made a liability by the extremely common Pursuit and checking/countering several top threats, many of which it does more adequately than Bronzong, warrants a swap in the rankings between it and Registeel imo.

I have to disagree with this. The reason Bronzong is so highly ranked is because of: 1. Decent coverage. Bronzong can run things such as HP Fire (for Durant) and Earthquake (so that fire types cant switch in as easily on it without fear of taking a decent amount of damage). I do realize that Registeel can also run these moves, but most of the time SToss and Iron Head are what should be run most of the time
2. It can check things such as Tyrantrum/Phsyical Flygon/Glalie/Dugtrio/etc. Registeel isnt as capable at checking these threats as Bronzong is; and I feel after the inevitable Durant ban, these mons are going to become a LOT more common then they are now.
Now I agree, Bronzong isnt as good as it used to be for sure. But I dont necessarily think that Zong is warranted B-. I'd say that both of these mons to B rank

Edit: Would like to add that if Regi is running just SToss, it gets destroyed by substitute Hoopa

 

[freezai]

-Flygon should be A+ rank not S rank. To put it short, Flygon is a jack of all trades but master of none. It can do so so many things but it is not excellent at any of them. The fact that it's already A+ is a testament to how powerful and valued its versatility and unpredictability is. Role compression is really nice, as well as its ability to check threats and natural speed. Combine that with its unpredictability and it makes it solidly above average, but not enough to make it S rank.

 

[pokemonisfun]

I would argue that Flygon is actually a "master" defogger, being close to the best Defogger in the tier but that Defogging isn't an important enough role to warrant S rank still.

 

[DTC]

I think Virizion is the 2nd best Pokemon in the tier right now and thus should be moved to S rank.

Virizion is the most reliable sweeper in RU. It's consistently able to set up Swords Dance with its amazing special bulk and great defensive typing (Water / Electric / Ground / Rock / Dark resist in a single Pokemon). Durant being banned really helps Virizion as the only non Choice Scarf Pokemon that can outspeed and OHKO it now are Sneasel and Fletchinder. While it's weak unboosted, that fact doesn't matter so much when Virizion so easily sets up Swords Dance and outspeeds most of the tier. Virizion + Mega Steelix is one of the most solid cores in the metagame (maybe only surpassed by Mega Steelix + Venu) as they each handle the Pokemon that threaten one another and put a lot of pressure into the opposing team as well. While Venusaur / Sigilyph are good answers to Virizion depending on the last move, you never know which move Virizion has until it uses it, so the Virizion player is able to use that fact to their advantage. And hell, if you're ballsy enough, Virizion can even switch into a predicted Venusaur Leaf Storm and set up on Venusaur right there.

In addition, Calm Mind Virizion is also a big threat and breaks past some of Swords Dance Virizion's traditional counters such as Aromatisse. I don't know this set as well and not many people use it but it can be very dangerous if a team is built around it.

So in conclusion, Virizion should be put into S rank because not only is it arguably the most reliable sweeper in the metagame, it also contributes some much needed resistances to any team it's on.

 

[lighthouses]

Yea, adding virizion to any team is almost cost-free since it is probably the most reliable check to bulky waters we have at the moment, that and the fact that choice band durant not being able to revenge it easily anymore makes it even better, you usually need two mons to answer virizion and they can be easily covered in most cases

 

[tehy]

I think DTC said just about everything I would say, so I'll add the little he didn't:

Virizion is frankly very hard to counter. I'm rolling with a Spiritomb / Venusaur / **Golbat** core right now and I can still lose to a virizion any given game I play. Its massive SpD means that a lot of bulky Grass, Poison, and Grass / Poison types (and fairies lol) who theoretically should lock it down often, by virtue of hitting it super effectively (with STAB, or 125 SpA in Tangrowth's case) basically just don't. Look at Amoonguss, who isn't even guaranteed a 2HKO - even SR only gives you a 25% shot, and thanks to the Lum a Poison won't be bailing you out; similarly, LO Tangrowth does about 62-73 with a Sludge Bomb. In general, a lot of bulky things end up being able to take 1 hit and strike back, but said counterstrike isn't really doing enough for Virizion to care. By the way, I'm just talking about Stone Edge Virizion (who arguably loses to Amoonguss because Amoonguss switches after the second Sludge Bomb, but still gets a kill as a result). Zen Headbutt just smashes all those counters that people usually use. And honestly, both moves are good enough that you can never just assume one isn't carried and build accordingly, or at least that hasn't been true for a while. By the way, LO SD, while seen rarely, absolutely chews through a lot of checks too - don't sleep on it.

As if zen headbutt wasn't a large enough blow to the grass / poisons that are meant to lock down Virizion, it's got access to a nice Calm Mind set, which takes these on as well as Sigilyph to an extent. I agree that set isn't the greatest but it's definitely potent in some matchups.

By the way, I'd argue Golbat is in some ways the best stop to Virizion, until Virizion double switches with rocks up and it becomes worthless.

so yeah, free S rank virizion. Though it is kind of annoying that it sucks at stopping some revenge killers and it's not that overwhelmingly strong, but oh well.

 

[Sweep]

Nominating Lilligant for C-.

I feel the Durant ban made life a little easier on Lilligant as Durant (specifically Choice Scarf ant) was one of the best checks offensive teams naturally packed to it. Lilligant still faces massive competition from offensive grasses but Sleep Powder + Quiver Dance + Own Tempo Petal Dance makes it arguably a scarier late game sweeper than any other grasses available. Its base 90 Speed stat is useful because it can outpace common Choice Scarf users after a Quiver Dance. Despite the unimpressive Special Attack stat, it hits hard enough to clean up quite nicely late-game and punch holes mid-game if a late game sweep isn't feasible or the most suitable win condition on your team in that particular match.

Naturally, Lilligant's inability to directly check anything remotely threatening (unlike mons like Venusaur, Tangrowth and Virizion) is a major detriment. It is also forced to run a Life Orb if it wants to secure crucial OHKOes, such as a +1 Hidden Power Flying on Virizion. This makes it vulnerable to getting worn down easily by chip damage (scald / hazards / LO recoil) and being put in priority range very quickly. Finally, the lack of a secondary STAB gives it more solid checks than it would like. Still, I have found Lilligant to be deadly in certain matchups, albeit inconsistent.

I use HP Flying Lilligant to smack Virizion and Emboar while still retaining coverage on most Grass types. HP Fire Magneton is a neat partner to the HP Flying variant to trap stuff like Escavalier, non-rest Registeel, and Bronzong. It also checks Fletchinder extremely well. Swords Dance Virizion with Zen Headbutt is another cool partner to wear down Lilligant's checks and vice versa. Naturally, you'll need answers to Fire types if you use either with Lilligant.

three replays:

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ru-358483946 (crit was a 50/50 roll, and Timid Lilligant's ability to outspeed most Choice Scarf users in RU at +1 now that Durant is gone proved crucial here)
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ru-358019661 (hp flying would have been clutch here if i weren't locked into petal dance, but at least the blastoise was destroyed)
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ru-358616035 (once Golbat is removed, Lilligant is free to set up on one of the two bulky waters on this full AIDS stall team and start blowing open holes left and right)

bonus replay of salt, jrp is a lord:

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ru-358501424

 

[EonX]

Going for it. Gonna nominate Articuno for C+ rank.

So, at first glance, Articuno looks kind of bad. Ice / Flying typing gives it a 4x weakness to hazards and quite a few weaknesses that are easy to exploit. Its highest stats are Special Defense and Defense while its Special Attack is barely higher than normal Abomasnow's and much lower than Mega Glalie's. However, get past the flaws and Articuno actually has quite a few neat perks in the current meta. Access to Freeze-Dry and Hurricane makes it quite difficult for teams lacking a pure Steel-type (or Bronzong, but that's awful) to switch into Articuno reliably. It's one of very few Pokemon in the tier that can pressure the ever-so-common Mega Steelix - Alomomola - Venusaur core. It outspeeds and can switch into Venusaur (Sludge Bomb poisoning can hurt, so only do this if you need to be aggressive or if you lack a defensive response) and it obviously puts heavy pressure on Alomomola with Freeze-Dry while Mega Steelix takes a clean 35-40% from switching into Freeze-Dry, meaning it can only switch in once unless it receives a Wish. Considering how common this core is right now, that's very big.

The Speed tier is also very nice; sitting at base 85. While this may not seem like much at first glance, Articuno is able to outspeed the extremely crowded base 70-80 Speed tier (Tyrantrum, Hoopa, Samurott, Venusaur, Absol, Medicham, Adamant Hitmonlee, Adamant Sawk just to name a few key things Cuno outspeeds) While Ice / Flying isn't a great defensive typing, Articuno does have a crucial resistance to Grass and anything its neutral to means it can likely tank and strike back with relative ease if the situation calls for it. Lastly, while Articuno requires hazard control, it's not like you have to look very far in this meta to get it with Flygon and Blastoise being so reliable at it. When I look at C+ rank as it's currently constructed, the only 2 Pokemon I feel are on Articuno's performance level / capability are Hariyama (for the ability to check Houndoom and Mega Glalie in one slot. BTW, Articuno is an Ice-type that pushes heavy damage on it!) and Hitmontop (spin support for Alomomola and / or stall teams) I could go into why Articuno is probably better than the rest of the C+ mons, but I don't feel I should have to. And it's definitely better than the C rank mons considering it can be used on more than one team archtype and is able to pressure the most common balance core in the tier right now (and switch into 2 parts of it!)

Virizion: Probably been the best A+ rank Pokemon for a while now and it only got better with Durant being banned. Pretty much everything that could be said about it has already been said, so I'll just back it for S rank based on what has already been said.

 

[DTC]

Nominating

Qwilfish to move down to B+.

Qwilfish, while a cool Pokemon, is pretty outdated in this metagame. It does nothing to dissuade Flygon from coming in and Defogging its hazards aside from Ice Beam, which doesn't even OHKO without serious investment, so it has issues doing its main job of setting up Spikes. In addition, there are a lot of common Pokemon that pressure Qwilfish really hard, such as Venusaur, Sigilyph, Meloetta, and Seismitoad, which make it hard for it to actually Spike. While it's a good answer to some Fighting-types like Emboar and Hitmonlee, it's also bad against other Fighting-types like Virizion and Medicham, so it's not an amazing Fighting-type either. It's also good against other Pokemon like Sneasel and Fletchinder, but most bulky Water-types are decent against those anyways. There aren't enough Pokemon that Qwilfish checks to give it much opportunities to set up hazards. It was a cool Pokemon when it was a pretty nice answer to Durant, but it has lost a lot of its niche now.

Qwilfish also messes up team synergy a little bit. It's one of the bulky Water-types, which serve an important role in the RU metagame, but it can't switch in against Mega Steelix and Flygon like other bulky waters can. In addition, it's also a defensive Pokemon that lacks recovery, but the best Wish Pokemon in the tier is also a bulky Water-type, which makes teambuilding awkward. There aren't too many teams that Qwilfish fits on, as even on stall Roselia is arguably a better Spiker.

Overall, Qwilfish still has its place on some teams, but it's becoming increasingly difficult to use Qwilfish effectively, and I think B+ is a much more appropriate placement.


tagging Arifeen and Scythe. for thoughts since I know they are Qwilfish fans

 

[feen]

Definitely agreeing with Qwilfish being moved to B+. It's just not that good anymore especially after Durant banning. DTC has said most of the relevant things, but I'd like to expand on a few things. Qwilfish was a nice Fighting-type check, but after Slowking and Medicham dropped it gradually lost its niche. Spiritomb and Slowking was used more as a Fighting-type check, and there were Spikes users in Garbodor and Weezing which does not lose to Venusaur. Moreover, Venusaur caused Qwilfish to drop in viability, since it's usually the best Poison-type to choose from, both offensively and defensively. (unless you want Spike stack for defensive teams, and as DTC said, Roselia is better)

 

[Texas Cloverleaf]

Quick 2 cents that CM virizion is quite legit, pair it with Rhyperior so that Togetic and Golbat can't fuck with you all day (Ice Punch for Flygon ofc) and it can generally do things in a given match. Sub CM is the solid stall breaker it's always been, best way to get past Amoonguss (with Clear Smog). CM+3 is better for Hyper fast teams since the special bulk let's it take a Sludge Bomb or two and try to take down weakened counters. The best variant is CM+Synthesis, allows Virizion to act as a risk-free Water switch in and let's Viriz beat Amoonguss (Sludge version) and Venusaur outright (barring crits) by boosting past them. Focus Blast 2 shots at +3 so it can be very effective in those matchups.

Rhyperior is definitely a clutch partner for the two attacks sets, they need to pressure the Golbat/Togetic duo to get anywhere with Viriz.


I also support DTCs descritption of Qwilfish and would argue it should drop even to B-

&dtc: Texas Cloverleaf do you believe that it should be there (B+)
+Texas Cloverleaf: i would not oppose at all, everything you say is true
+Texas Cloverleaf: it cant check the stuff the bulky water slot needs to check
&dtc: i think B- might be a little to olow
+Texas Cloverleaf: and it's hard tog et effective use out of it
&dtc: maybe B
&dtc: because ive seen the occasional good qwilfish team
Mole Knight: It is the best answer for emboar, maybe besides alomomola
+Texas Cloverleaf: it constrains tembuilding very heavily
&dtc: for sure Texas Cloverleaf
+Texas Cloverleaf: because it almost necessitates double bulky waters
+Texas Cloverleaf: or a convulted type resist set up
Mole Knight: There is more to qwilfish than just being a bulky water type, though
Mole Knight: its spikes support is what makes qwilfish shine
Lord Death Man: yah but the thing is that qwilfish just isnt a strong bulky water
+Texas Cloverleaf: Mole Knight sure there is, it's primary role is setting spikes
+Texas Cloverleaf: the problem is
+Texas Cloverleaf: there's sooooo many top threats
Lord Death Man: so you need a second
Lord Death Man: bulky water
+Texas Cloverleaf: that immediately threater it
+Texas Cloverleaf: meaning it cant come in
Lord Death Man: which is often not worth it
+Texas Cloverleaf: and when it's in it often cants et spikes anyway
+Texas Cloverleaf: especially problmatic when
+Texas Cloverleaf: flygon jsut defogs for free

 

[col49]

the day im non-associative w/spikestack, what have I been doing man.

notwithstanding, while i don't necessarily object to a drop, the arguments brought really make me question how folks were using qwilfish prior haha. there are important implications of qwilfish balance and even stall, and ill just say outright those are objectively poor uses of qwilfish. the vulnerability to special fires and grass neutrality contrasted to other poisons aren't new issues to this meta, why is it that w/durant going folks are sayin "hey, why isn't qwilfish checking houndoom lol". qwilfish was an always has been a bulky water whose malleability and role compression gave it a function on offenses, ranging from tankier good stuffs to more aggro stuff. if you're slapping something like that on slower teams, then duh you'll be feeling the shortcomings of it, you're building something w/the pacing that makes strong grasses, fires, etc their most dangerous. that's a fundamental hit you take w/role compression, and in that context absolutely use alo/toise + garb odor, absolutely. i just can't help but see these arguments as "my chansey is ruining offensive momentum", kinda bizarro

 

[Lord Death Man]

I'm with DTC on Qwilfish; its just hard to use. I'm also with 49 in the sense that qwilfish stall is bad and qwilfish balance is pushing it and always have been, but I do think that current balance trends make it hard to use as most balance teams have multiple ways to pressure qwilfish out. Qwilfish is cool when it makes scarf Medicham not click HJK and when you throw up 2 layers on a Mola after luring their flygon, but it, increasingly, lets in mons that bone offense as the meta shifts in response to decent fighting resists being the norm rather than the exception.

I think we should drop Aromatisse to B or Rise Togetic to B+. (Strongly feel that tisse should drop).

Aromatisse is sort of in a bad spot; it often relies on all of its hp to take on threats, such as SD Virizion and completely fails to take on alternative sets of common mons, like life orb variants of SD Virizion/life orb CM Virizion. It has a tiny movepool that either easily lets in a wide array of mons or cuts into its ability to support its team with heal bell (or both). Offhand, Fletchinder, Delphox, Escavalier, Mega Camerupt, Mega Steelix, and Venusaur are all common mons who easily come in on Aromatisse and seriously threaten teams. While it can provide wish support to a team, it's often pressured to absorb it's own wishes at the risk of no longer checking strong fighting types. Main mons it takes on better than Togetic are Sneasel, Life Orb Jolly Medicham (both lose to adamant), and electric-types, none of which are mons who come in on either. I think it's a mediocre wish passer in the current meta and I think that's really it's main niche.

Meanwhile, while Togetic lets in a lot of these mons, access to Thunder Wave, Baton Pass, and Flamethrower make it a little bit harder to switch into, Encore lets it give a hard time to things that try to take advantage of it, and it takes on CM Virizion alongside SD sets with Zen Headbutt.

While Togetic is weaker to knock off, knock off often cripples Tisse and more and more knock off users have minimal issues with Aromatisse; Iron Tail Absol beats both, every other Absol set doesn't beat either, etc. Togetic's higher bulk with eviolite intact often gives it a little more breathing room versus a few mons - Jolly Band Sawk often misses the clean 2hko on Togetic, for example, and it can reasonably switch into LO Sigilyph and cripple it. The bulk gives it some breathing room versus LO SD Gallade (Togetic wins even if rocks are up thanks to Thunder Wave), special attackers who can't hit it super effectively, scarf Emboar, and most Samurott. Togetic is a lot weaker to aggressive double switches with rocks up, but Tisse is very heavily pressured by spikes stack teams.

edit: I know toge lets in a lot of the same mons but it can at least cripple or dent most or pivot out, which was the point I was trying to make comparing them.