Resource RU Viability Rankings Thread

Status
Not open for further replies.
I just want to point out that Qwilfish is a rather decent check, or at the very least, isnt a bad match-up versus Virizion:

+1 252 Atk Virizion Leaf Blade vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Qwilfish: 148-175 (44.3 - 52.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Black Sludge recovery

0 Atk Qwilfish Poison Jab vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Virizion: 216-254 (66.8 - 78.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

I know max defence Qwilfish with Poison Jab isnt the standard set, but that doesnt mean it isnt usable. And this actually makes Qwilfish the only bulky water type that can take on virizion 1v1. The thing about Qwilfish is that it has a rich movepool, which makes it fairly splashable, and somewhat easier to fit onto a team, depending on what kind of support moves your team desire. It might not be the best bulky water type, but it is arguably the best defensive spiker.

There might be some glaring flaws with these arguments, but I dont see any harm with a bad post as long as it is relevant.
 

Take Azelfie

More flags more fun

Unranked ---> C-
So I have been using this on a team recently and I have really enjoyed how it has been turning out. Scarf Primeape offers different tools than Scarf Medicham which is why I think it is deserving of a rank. First of is that Primeape has U-turn instead of Baton Pass which means it can break Focus Sash, can deal damage to Psychic-types, and not transfer over Intimidate drops. Primeape's pure Fighting-type also allows it to not get bopped by Sucker Punch from Absol which is pretty cool. Primeape's speed tier is also pretty good allowing it run Adamant or Jolly if it wants to outspeed Hitmonlee. But the real gold is found within Primeape's almost exclusive ability Defiant, giving it an extremely purposeful niche on Spike stacking teams. This can sometimes for your opponent to play a lot more carefully around Primeape, unless they are completely unaware and you get a free boost.

now I don't have the best replays but I think it can show some perks of Primeape
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ru-358785286
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ru-358824368
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ru-359056947

edit: it also has other cool coverage like Gunk Shot to hit Aroma and Stone Edge and even Punishment
 
Last edited:
Virizion: There's really nothing I can say without being a broken record. One of the best things in the tier (probably second only to Steelix) and the best A+ rank right now. Durant being gone means that's one less thing that gives it trouble. It can run physical and special sets with ease and with its ridiculous base 129 special defence it can shrug off many neutral attacks (and even some SE ones) and use the variety of weaker special things in the tier as set-up fodder. Please put this in S Rank.

Qwilfish: I can see this one too. With Alomomola being a staple on Balance/Stall teams as a Wish Passer and Blastoise being the best spinner in the tier, it's quite difficult to fit this onto teams without stacking water types or running Aromatisse/Flygon. While neither Aromatisse nor Flygon are horrible, Aromatisse is outclassed by Alomomola. Qwilfish also can't check Flygon or Megalix as well as the other bulky waters because the poison typing, while it means it doesn't get run over instantly by non-Zen Headbutt Virizion, but it removes some of the things bulky waters are supposed to do. Drop this to B+ Rank.
 

tehy

Banned deucer.
my opinions:

A: Aromatisse is, to put it mildly, dong.

What exactly does it counter? Basically, Hitmonlee, maybe Sneasel, Absol, and Spiritomb / Malamar...and it can struggle with Hitmonlee and even Absol. Basically, Aromatisse doesn't really counter that much, and rather it checks limited things, many of whom can get past it with good prediction. Thus it doesn't even provide that much utility to your team defensively, and additionally it does tend to allow in a lot of dangerous things for free. On top of that, it often has to protect just to get its wish, granting them a free turn - and, humorously for a Pokemon immune to taunt, capable of healing itself and de-statusing itself, letting stall wear it down by clicking roar constantly. Ultimately I just feel like Aromatisse doesn't provide that much value.

Also, I think 49 has a point with Qwilfish - I definitely wouldn't use it on any defensive teams xD. And also, I think Garbodor has begun to take its spot due to all the dangerous grasses, from Virizion to even Tangrowth and Venusaur. Not to mention I see people flexing with Lilligant? So yeah, very meh on qwilfish fam. To the guy who posted about Poison Jab Qwilfish: well, notice with rocks up Qwil is still losing so D:.
 
Nominating a few.

Amoonguss to A-
Venusaur does exist, but it has a few niches over it.

One of the primary ones is Regenerator, one of the best abilities. Combined with Synthesis ans Giga Drain and it's tied with Tangrowth at having the best and most reliable recovery in the tier.

It also has Spore, which nothing in the metagame that's not immune to it likes. Only Grass types can absorb them, and it counters Virizion anyway, which is definitely the best Grass type in the tier atm. (Assuming that it's not running Zen Headbutt or HP Ice)

Oh, and it also has Clear Smog, which makes setup sweepers such as Virizion a lot easier to kill. I will admit that most other setup sweepers can beat it though, but Virizion is the most dangerous setup sweeper anyways.

Druddigon to B+
This thing hardly has any flaws. It's excellent both offensively and defensively.

Offensively, it has coverage moves that cover all of its weaknesses, and they hit a mass amount of the tier for super effective damage. Almost nothing can switch into it safely.

Defensively, it has Rough Skin + Rocky Helmet, which is the only Pokemon in the tier that has that combo. It also has Glare, which is an annoyance to most of the tier.

Overall, Druddigon's diversity and multiple roles make it worthy of moving up.

Clawitzer to B-
Clawitzer is far from the greatest, but C+ is a little too low. With Mega Launcher and good coverage it hits incredibly hard, especially with Pokemon such as Steelix-Mega and Emboar roaming around. It has low Speed, but for RU standards it's about average. (Since RU has a good amount of Pokemon with Speed under the 50's) It's near impossible to switch into it as well. It's bulk isn't the best, but it's not the worst either, as it can take neutral hits. Besides, Clawitzer is a wallbreaker anyways, and wallbreakers tend to have low offensive stats, so you can switch it in on walls that need to be dealt with most of the time.

Clawitzer isn't that great of a Pokemon, but I don't think it's C+ bad.

Fletchinder to A-
First off, if Dog Shit was a Pokemon, it would have better stats than Fletchinder. It doesn't even run Eviolite to boost its defenses because it can't hold an item in order to give Acrobatics more power.

And Stealth Rock. Just, Stealth Rock. Especially with its awful HP, it has an incredibly hard time switching in. It has Swords Dance and Gale Wings, sure, but it has an overly hard time setting up due to its Defenses and Stealth Rock weakness. This Pokemon needs too much team support to fix its flaws.

I think Fletchinder definitely has some viability in RU, but definitely not enough to make it A.
 
Last edited:
Nominating Abomasnow and Fletchinder dropping to A-.

Abomasnow
There's too much in RU countering it. Bronzong, Camerupt-Mega, Emboar, Escavalier, Hitmontop, Magneton, Registeel, Venusaur, etc, most of which are common in the meta. 75 Defense and 60 Speed isn't doing it any favors, as it's overly suspectable to being checked and revenge killed by almost every hard-hitting physical attacker and anything that has a type matchup advantage over it, and that's common due to its 7 weaknesses.

100% Blizzard? There are too many Pokemon in RU that resist that, and it's Sp. Attack isn't that great either to make enough use of it. Swords Dance? Outclassed by Virizion, which has higher Speed and can take a Special Attack better. Ice Shard priority? Outclassed by Sneasel and Glalie-Mega, which have higher offensive stats than it. There's nothing about Abomasnow that makes it good enough to be A tier.

Fletchinder
First off, if Dog Shit was a Pokemon, it would have better stats than Fletchinder. It doesn't even run Eviolite to boost its defenses because it can't hold an item in order to give Acrobatics more power.

And Stealth Rock. Just, Stealth Rock. Especially with its awful HP, it has an incredibly hard time switching in. It has Swords Dance and Gale Wings, sure, but it has an overly hard time setting up due to its Defenses and Stealth Rock weakness. This Pokemon needs too much team support to fix its flaws.

I think Fletchinder definitely has some viability in RU, but definitely not enough to make it A.
Ok I won't refute the Abomasnow nom mostly because I have practically 0 experience with Abomasnow in the current meta, no one seems to use it and I've never really been interesting in it. I'll just note that the only Ice resist that isn't hit by Giga Drain or Focus Blast is Bronzong, which is acknowledged by a huge majority of the player base rn as "dog shit". It's also not comparable to Sneasel in anyway other than their both Ice types. Abomasnow's main issues are its weakness to Knock Off Alomomola and its lack of bulk, but the typing and its coverage still works for what it needs to accomplish.
But your arguments for Fletchinder make me feel like you've never used it before. It is frail and Stealth Rock weak, but Fletchinder takes advantage of switches, burnt foes and passive Pokemon to set up its SD's, not hard hitting Pokemon. Fletchinder is also ranked as high as it is because of its ability to check fighting types like Virizion, which is very common and good atm, and it can cripple its switchins with Will-O-Wisp. Even Pokemon that can heal it off like Blastoise and Diancie still have to waste the turn to do so, giving momentum to the Fletchinder user. The meta is in many ways hostile towards Fletchinder such as the rise of Diancie, Slowking, Blastoise, etc and how common steelix + water balance is atm, and I wouldn't outright reject a drop to A- because of this. But you are looking at Fletchinder's stats and not how it actually functions. While it may require a lot of support, this doesn't mean Fletchinder doesn't provide as much support back to any team its featured on.
 

Lord Death Man

i cant read
is a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributor
Hitmontop, Camerupt, Magneton, and Venusaur all hate switching into Abomasnow because they take a decent hit and are rapidly worn down by hail damage. A big reason Abomasnow is an A-rank mon is because hail offers an immense amount of (mostly unseen) support, especially to specific bulky offense builds; it chips away at plenty of bulky mons, especially ones without reliable recovery, rapidly wears down offensive mons, and cripples Venusaur's healing move. You also can't compare Abomasnow to Virizion, Glalie, or Sneasel, they function very differently. Abomasnow should always have either Focus Blast or Earthquake as coverage, which gives it fantastic coverage that makes it hard to switch into.

Fletchinder, meanwhile, has one of the strongest available priority moves (only outdamaged by LO/band boosted sucker punches to my knowledge), and what is actually a pretty good defensive typing. It has all the tools it needs to harass a lot of balance teams and especially offensive teams, and removing hazards is easier than ever. It offers quite a bit of role compression and can be a massive hassle late game, even if you were prepared.
 
Nominating Abomasnow and Fletchinder dropping to A-.

Abomasnow
There's too much in RU countering it. Bronzong, Camerupt-Mega, Emboar, Escavalier, Hitmontop, Magneton, Registeel, Venusaur, etc, most of which are common in the meta. 75 Defense and 60 Speed isn't doing it any favors, as it's overly suspectable to being checked and revenge killed by almost every hard-hitting physical attacker and anything that has a type matchup advantage over it, and that's common due to its 7 weaknesses.

100% Blizzard? There are too many Pokemon in RU that resist that, and it's Sp. Attack isn't that great either to make enough use of it. Swords Dance? Outclassed by Virizion, which has higher Speed and can take a Special Attack better. Ice Shard priority? Outclassed by Sneasel and Glalie-Mega, which have higher offensive stats than it. There's nothing about Abomasnow that makes it good enough to be A tier.

Fletchinder
First off, if Dog Shit was a Pokemon, it would have better stats than Fletchinder. It doesn't even run Eviolite to boost its defenses because it can't hold an item in order to give Acrobatics more power.

And Stealth Rock. Just, Stealth Rock. Especially with its awful HP, it has an incredibly hard time switching in. It has Swords Dance and Gale Wings, sure, but it has an overly hard time setting up due to its Defenses and Stealth Rock weakness. This Pokemon needs too much team support to fix its flaws.

I think Fletchinder definitely has some viability in RU, but definitely not enough to make it A.

Okay, okay, okay. Bronzong counters it, sure. As Kableye said, Bronzong is very commonly regarded as "dog shit", first of all. Second, without reliable recovery, and a weakness to one of the most common and effective offensive typings in the tier (dark), Bronzong is VERY prone to being worn down. Most Abomasnow in my experience run EQ, anyway, for steel types (barring zong, obviously).

In my experience, (and believe me, I have used this a LOT), There are few defensive mons that counter it. Hitmontop is not a counter.

252+ SpA Life Orb Abomasnow Blizzard vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Hitmontop: 187-220 (61.5 - 72.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after hail damage and Leftovers recovery

Do you know what all of the mons you just mentioned have in common? A gaping weakness to Delphox. Most mons that "counter" Abomasnow are offensive, and must come in through VoltTurn, which, admittedly, is a real issue for Abomasnow. If its only checks are offensive on the opposing team, and Abomasnow gets even one free turn, it can deal major damage, 2HKO'ing the majority of the tier. Again, almost all of Abomasnow's "counters" share similar checks, such as Delphox.

As for pokemon that resist Blizzard, do we play the same RU? There are extremely few Blizzard switch-ins. Bulky Waters? Have fun taking a Giga Drain. Fire-types?
Earthquake nabs a kill (on the switch, of course). The only real switch-ins are Registeel, AV Eel, Diancie, Defensive Emboar, Escavalier, and a few other mons. That's it. Most steel-types in the tier are KO's by EQ after a blizzard, and some are even 2HKO'd by Blizzard. (M-lix).

Yes, it is incredible frail on the physical side. So? For the ability to destroy Defensive, Bulky Offense, and even stall teams alike, I'd consider that a worthwhile trade-off.

Now, moving on.

Not much to be said about Druddigon that hasn't already been said. It's nigh impossible to switch in to. It has incredible coverage and versatility and works on a multitude of playstyles. Move it up to B+.

About Fletchinder: I can see why people would want it to drop, but access to the most powerful priority in RU more than makes up for it in my opinion.
 
Nominating Abomasnow and Fletchinder dropping to A-.

Abomasnow
There's too much in RU countering it. Bronzong, Camerupt-Mega, Emboar, Escavalier, Hitmontop, Magneton, Registeel, Venusaur, etc, most of which are common in the meta. 75 Defense and 60 Speed isn't doing it any favors, as it's overly suspectable to being checked and revenge killed by almost every hard-hitting physical attacker and anything that has a type matchup advantage over it, and that's common due to its 7 weaknesses.

100% Blizzard? There are too many Pokemon in RU that resist that, and it's Sp. Attack isn't that great either to make enough use of it. Swords Dance? Outclassed by Virizion, which has higher Speed and can take a Special Attack better. Ice Shard priority? Outclassed by Sneasel and Glalie-Mega, which have higher offensive stats than it. There's nothing about Abomasnow that makes it good enough to be A tier.

Fletchinder
First off, if Dog Shit was a Pokemon, it would have better stats than Fletchinder. It doesn't even run Eviolite to boost its defenses because it can't hold an item in order to give Acrobatics more power.

And Stealth Rock. Just, Stealth Rock. Especially with its awful HP, it has an incredibly hard time switching in. It has Swords Dance and Gale Wings, sure, but it has an overly hard time setting up due to its Defenses and Stealth Rock weakness. This Pokemon needs too much team support to fix its flaws.

I think Fletchinder definitely has some viability in RU, but definitely not enough to make it A.
I'd like to refute both of these arguments. While the drops you're asking for aren't too off-base, you seemed to have significantly slipped up on your execution. Barring Brongzong, Escavalier, and, to a lesser extent, registeel and emboar, those Pokemon you mentioned certainly aren't counters to Abomasnow, especially in the case of Venusaur, Hitmontop, mega Camerupt, who can't switch into Abomasnow's most commonly spammed move, blizzard. I guess Hitmontop might be able to if it were specially defensive, Assault Vest, or speedy, all of which I would consider very subpar. Magneton is quickly ripped apart by focus blast or earthquake. Saying that sneasel has higher offensive stats is mostly a moot point considering the much higher base power of Abomsnow's ice type STAB. Abomasnow sets itself apart from Mega Glalie by being able to easily crack through Alomamola as well as having an easier time against Mlix. I really don't have too much of a problem with this argument, but I believe you to be misinformed on Abomasnow in RU or maybe the definition of check or counter.

I'm a bit more avid on the subject of Fletchinder's drop. Admittedly, the rise of Fat Waters and steels is a large thorn in Fletchinder's side. However, this still doesn't stop fletch from being a bitch and a half to offensive teams, which have a very small pool of countermoves to Fletchinder. While it does have offensive stops, such as tyrantrum and meglix, the burns that Fletch can inflict are extremely annoying for those Pokemon. However, what makes Fletchinder still worthy of A rank, in my opinion, is it's extremely annoying defensive typing, including resistances to grass, fighting, fire, fairy, steel, and an immunity to ground. While fletch is frail, certain Pokemon, such as Escavalier, Aromatisse, gurdurr, and Togetic just fail to do significant damage to it and as such are complete bait.

Again, I'm not saying the nominations themselves are bad, but the arguments are, in my opinion, severely lacking. And I'm aware that as I was writing this, I was ninja'd by a few people.
 
Nominating a few.

Abomasnow to A-
There's too much in RU countering it. Bronzong, Camerupt-Mega, Emboar, Escavalier, Hitmontop, Magneton, Registeel, Venusaur, etc, most of which are common in the meta. 75 Defense and 60 Speed isn't doing it any favors, as it's overly suspectable to being checked and revenge killed by almost every hard-hitting physical attacker and anything that has a type matchup advantage over it, and that's common due to its 7 weaknesses.

100% Blizzard? There are too many Pokemon in RU that resist that, and it's Sp. Attack isn't that great either to make enough use of it. Swords Dance? Outclassed by Virizion, which has higher Speed and can take a Special Attack better. Ice Shard priority? Outclassed by Sneasel and Glalie-Mega, which have higher offensive stats than it. There's nothing about Abomasnow that makes it good enough to be A tier.

Druddigon to B+
This thing hardly has any flaws. It's excellent both offensively and defensively.

Offensively, it has coverage moves that cover all of its weaknesses, and they hit a mass amount of the tier for super effective damage. Almost nothing can switch into it safely.

Defensively, it has Rough Skin + Rocky Helmet, which is the only Pokemon in the tier that has that combo. It also has Glare, which is an annoyance to most of the tier.

Overall, Druddigon's diversity and multiple roles make it worthy of moving up.

Fletchinder to A-
First off, if Dog Shit was a Pokemon, it would have better stats than Fletchinder. It doesn't even run Eviolite to boost its defenses because it can't hold an item in order to give Acrobatics more power.

And Stealth Rock. Just, Stealth Rock. Especially with its awful HP, it has an incredibly hard time switching in. It has Swords Dance and Gale Wings, sure, but it has an overly hard time setting up due to its Defenses and Stealth Rock weakness. This Pokemon needs too much team support to fix its flaws.

I think Fletchinder definitely has some viability in RU, but definitely not enough to make it A.
First off, while all the things you listed could deal with aboma 1v1 to an extent, very few of them actually want to switch in on abomasnow. Mega Camerupt is slow and is hit neutrally by Blizzard, Magneton and Registeel are weak to Focus Blast, Venusaur outright dies to Blizzard, Hitmontop can't repeatedly switch in and isn't that great, and the rest are hit neutrally by Focus Blast. 7 weaknesses seems bad, but Poison and Steel are almost never used as offensive types and no flying-type is going to try and switch into you under hail anyways, especially with rocks up, of which the only decent spinner that isn't weak to Abomasnow is Hitmontop, which still doesn't want to come in on rocks + blizzard + Hail. If speed is an issue, Abomasnow has STAB Ice Shard which hits decently hard without investment or you could just pair it with trick room support if you really want. Abomasnow, ultimately, functions like its mega counterpart did: A slow, hard-hitting monster that destroys stallish/slower balance teams outright and is capable of beating regular balance if you remove the fast things. Keep in A.
 

fran17

(1999)
is a Tiering Contributor Alumnus
Nominating
Tauros for C rank
at least, 110 is a really nice speed tier for an offensive mon, and Sheer Power is a really cool ability. Rock Climb / Earthquake / Zen Headbutt / Iron Head provides enough coverage to hit all the metagame and only some pokemons avoid the 2HKO by him (Steelix, Jellicent, Alomomola, Spiritomb). His problem is that it's difficult to put him in a team since normal isn't a really good typing, so you should build around him, but he can put in some good work if played well.
edit @ Lord Death Man: Ambipom "better speed tier" let him outspeed only Tauros and tie with Sneasel, which beats Ambipom anyway with some prior damage (which is easy to get because of the LO recoil). And Tauros better bulk allows him to do some 1v1 with more ease and makes him more difficult to revenge kill by the likes of LO Hitmonlee, Houndoom, and Fletchinder. Also Pursuit makes him very good!

Also going to post my opinion on the current topics:
Abomasnow should stay in A. Giga Drain and Blizzard are strong STABs that can put in a lot of work againist the defensive core that are now so used on the ladder (Steelix+bulky water, regencores) and Focus Blast does a good damage to steel types that can take the STABs, and does a good damage to fire types too. AV Escavalier, which is one of his best counter because of his ability to trap him with Pursuit is seeing less usage in ladder so Aboma as even more free field to play. Also all of his counter lacks of a recovery so it's easy to wear them down.
 
Last edited:

Lord Death Man

i cant read
is a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributor
What are the specific targets Tauros hits that Ambipom isn't hitting? Ambipom has a better speed tier, a pivoting move, utility options, a stronger pursuit on mons that don't switch, and priority. What is the compelling reason to use it over Ambipom?
 

Take Azelfie

More flags more fun
What are the specific targets Tauros hits that Ambipom isn't hitting? Ambipom has a better speed tier, a pivoting move, utility options, a stronger pursuit on mons that don't switch, and priority. What is the compelling reason to use it over Ambipom?
Mostly coverage like Earthquake and Zen Headbutt being able to pick off some checks after chip damage. Not to mention Iron Head is able to body Diancie which is especially nice. Sheer Force can also give Tauros more power to all of its coverage instead of boosting a simple Fake Out making it a decent wallbreaker at the very least. Sheer Force can even make Fire Blast a nice lure as well giving it some decent power to its attacks.
 

Lord Death Man

i cant read
is a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributor
Mostly coverage like Earthquake and Zen Headbutt being able to pick off some checks after chip damage. Not to mention Iron Head is able to body Diancie which is especially nice. Sheer Force can also give Tauros more power to all of its coverage instead of boosting a simple Fake Out making it a decent wallbreaker at the very least. Sheer Force can even make Fire Blast a nice lure as well giving it some decent power to its attacks.
Ambipom's Low Kick hits several targets much harder (notably Mega Steelix), Ambi learns moves to beat a lot of the same checks, including Iron Tail and Aerial Ace. Sheer Force Rock Climb is about 15% stronger than Ambipom's Return, but that's not actually a huge power jump (Cincinno is hitting like 24% harder, for example). What does Sheer Force Fire Blast even hit in this meta? It's still a 3hko on Mega Steelix and is outdamaged by Ambipom's Low Kick.
 
What are the specific targets Tauros hits that Ambipom isn't hitting? Ambipom has a better speed tier, a pivoting move, utility options, a stronger pursuit on mons that don't switch, and priority. What is the compelling reason to use it over Ambipom?
I'm assuming that you were doing this to make the point that Tauros is bad and not the point that ambipom is actually decent in a competitive sense. Tauros hots harder than ambi, and, unlike Cinccino, can actually do something-anything-against steel types. I'm not necessarily supporting a Tauros rise as I have only used it in NU, but it might be better than ambipom, at any rate. Tauros also has a little more bulk than Ambi and Cincinno, which is kinda notable for allowing bull to switch into weaker attacks a little more easily. I still think that ambipom is trash and Tauros is kinda close to that, but I think it's slightly better than both ambipom and Cincinno.
 

phantom

Banned deucer.
updates:

Virizion up to S
Qwilfish down to B+
Registeel up to B
Bronzong down to B
Jolteon up to B+
Aromatisse down to B

needs more discussion:

Tauros
Lilligant
Articuno
Primeape

discussion points:

Qwilfish down to B or stay in B+
Garbodor up to B or stay in B-
Absol down to B+ or stay in A-
Drapion down to B+ or stay in A-
Manectric down to B+ or stay in A-
 

Punchshroom

FISHIOUS REND MEGA SHARPEDO
is a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Top Contributor
Just to answer some of ldm's queries:
Ambipom's Low Kick hits several targets much harder (notably Mega Steelix), Ambi learns moves to beat a lot of the same checks, including Iron Tail and Aerial Ace. Sheer Force Rock Climb is about 15% stronger than Ambipom's Return, but that's not actually a huge power jump (Cincinno is hitting like 24% harder, for example). What does Sheer Force Fire Blast even hit in this meta? It's still a 3hko on Mega Steelix and is outdamaged by Ambipom's Low Kick.
252 Atk Life Orb Ambipom Low Kick (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Steelix: 135-161 (38.1 - 45.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Tauros Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Steelix: 114-135 (32.2 - 38.1%) -- 94.3% chance to 3HKO
4 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Tauros Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 76 SpD Mega Steelix: 130-153 (36.7 - 43.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

252 Atk Life Orb Ambipom Low Kick (120 BP) vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Solid Rock Rhyperior: 170-201 (39.2 - 46.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Life Orb Tauros Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Solid Rock Rhyperior: 142-168 (32.7 - 38.7%) -- 4.2% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

In terms of damage output from their coverage moves, Tauros is not that much weaker than Ambipom, and Rhyperior is a more notable example of that difference in power if nothing else. I also presume you're using Choice Band Cinccino in your calcs, because LO Cinccino only hits like 7% harder than Tauros's Rock Climb.

252 Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Tauros Rock Climb vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Spinda: 313-370 (119.9 - 141.7%)
252 Atk Life Orb Cinccino Tail Slap (5 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Spinda: 330-390 (126.4 - 149.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Not that I condone any of these physical Normal-types in this meta, since they're really not worth using over other options, most notably Sneasel if you want the Speed tier while having the benefit of hitting a ton of things super effectively with dual STABs.

------------------------------------------------------------------

stay in B+

The likes of Venusaur and Flygon have hurt its standing really badly, but Qwilfish can still hold its own outside of those matchups. Between its typing plus access to Intimidate and Thunder Wave, Qwilfish can generally fend for itself while going about its Spiking business. It also has a decently wide usable movepool which it can tailor itself into several different roles, increasing its versatility.

probably up to B

Garbodor is one of the few really viable Venusaur checks in the tier, and has enough general all-rounded bulk to set up Spikes on a good variety of Pokemon. It also doesn't clash typings with Alomomola, the premier Wish user of the tier. Probably the main reason I hesitate to move it up further, or in general, is that it doesn't have as much tools as Qwilfish to disrupt the opponent with, and as a result invites in more threatening opponents than it would like (such as Hoopa and Mega Camerupt).

stay in A-

The sheer power of its Sucker Punch is nothing to mess with, especially if it manages to find the opportunity to boost (usually from you fleeing from said Sucker Punch). To top it off, it has the coverage to smack almost every Knock Off resist in the tier (and I don't mean just Dark resist either, I am accounting for things like Mega Steelix), all of which have high Base Power and are backed up by its enormous Attack stat. While this mon offers zero defensive synergy, it more than makes up with its sheer holepunching capability and occasional sweeping potential what with its disgustingly strong Sucker Punch and all.

probably stay in A-

I can see why Mane is nommed to drop; sometimes its lack of raw power and/or sheer Speed seems too lacking to justify its awful bulk. However, Manectric's access to Fire coverage is pretty huge, allowing it to to take out the likes of Mega Steelix and bulky Grasses in one move, and do massive damage to Steel-types in general, as it allows Manectric to less restricted when deciding its Hidden Power choice. Jolteon may be be able to outrun a select few threats such as Sneasel, Scarf Emboar, and most notably Dugtrio (I don't think I'm going to count Virizion here), but Manectric has a much easier time maneuvering around bulky cores, which lessens its need to Volt Switch all the time.

XL, up to C+

I've been using Gourgeist-XL recently, specifically a Colbur Berry Gourgeist-XL set with Will-O-Wisp, Leech Seed, Synthesis, and Rock Slide, and it has been proving itself fairly capable of walling threats and be annoying while performing the ocassional spinblocking. Its high physical bulk, (semi-)reliable recovery, and disruptive moves can make it tricky to play around, and Rock Slide does substantial damage to nearly anything that otherwise wouldn't mind said disruptive moves (Sigilyph, Fletchinder, Houndoom, Delphox, etc.). It's particularly appealing as a hard counter to nearly every physical Fighting-type in the tier, especially against SD Virizion which it hardly gives much of a damn about, despite its inability to beat Virizion quickly. SuperGeist still requires a good amount of team support, primarily from all the special attackers that lay waste to Gourgeist-Super here, but it still offers its bang for its buck.
 
Last edited:

tehy

Banned deucer.
chiming in to say I'm using gourgeist-super on my stall team too; it's very nice to have a rock-solid Virizion counter, and it also takes on tons of fighting-types, pressure Steelix and Rhyperior while easily switching in, and just generally have either Leech Seed or Will-o-Wisp to harass most switch-ins.

edit: also takes on samurott which is very nice because that thing goes hard on a lot of stall and / or balance

double edit:

hopped on the ladder for proof of concept and

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ru-361565279

you can see that gourgeist basically takes a dump on 4/6ths of his team, once SR is up he's basically forced into an untenable position. Meanwhile Virizion doing a crisp 17% at +4 burned with Zen Headbutt, meaning it needs 2 flinches to break through (since they'd do about 35, it'd need three flinches to avoid getting burned). I could've also used it more aggressively in this game but I wanted to save it for defensive purposes which turned out great.
 
Last edited:

feen

control
is a Top Tiering Contributoris a Team Rater Alumnusis a Community Leader Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus
Garbodor: While Venusaur and Virizion being ever prominent in the tier, Garbodor is a very solid check to both of them, being able to check Venusaur smoothly, and countering most Virizion sets. Zen Headbutt Virizion fails to KO at +2 and thus Garbodor can still KO it back with Gunk Shot. On top of that, Garbodor is also a decent Fighting-type check, and is a great Spikes user, as it can get Spikes up against a lot of threats, mainly Grass- and Fighting-types such as Hitmonlee and Choice Scarf Medicham locked into High Jump Kick. On top of that, it also has decent utility moves, such as Haze and Pain Split, which can stop setup sweepers such as Malamar and Fletchinder, and have a way to have longevity respectively. Due to all these reasons, I believe Garbodor should rise to B rank.

Absol: While it's true that this thing is an offensive powerhouse, it really is lackluster in the current metagame. Yes, it's a very dangerous thing to switch into, but it has problems switching in to attacks anyways. All-Out Attacker sets fails to break past Alomomola, which is a great Pokemon on balance. Sure, switching into Knock Off is hard, especially if it's very hard hitting, but we must take its bulk and Speed into account. Absol also can be easily revenge killed by common Fighting-types apart from Medicham (Virizion, Emboar, Sawk, Gurdurr). Swords Dance sets tend to have a hard time setting up, since opposing Pokemon can either cripple Absol with status ailments or just hit it very hard. The only way to set up reliably is to predict a switch and Swords Dance in the process, which I believe a Pokemon should not have in A- rank. For these reasons, I believe Absol should fall to B+ rank.
 

lighthouses

Inordinary
is a Tiering Contributor
Can someone explain to me what is it that makes garbodor better than weezing?
Weezing is able to check venusaur and tangrowth better while having an immunity to ground as well as access to willo and taunt, the only times i would ever run garbodor over weezing would be on heavy offense and even then it's probably outclassed by a bunch of stuff(a regular spikes setter etc), it's supposed to be a fighting type resist for offense which means it can't run spdef so:
252+ SpA Life Orb Venusaur Leaf Storm vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Garbodor: 148-175 (40.6 - 48%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
And if you're using lefties garbodor on balance you might as well be using weezing most of the time anyway;I don't see how one is better than the other, if anything weezing should rise, imo
 

Punchshroom

FISHIOUS REND MEGA SHARPEDO
is a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Top Contributor
Can someone explain to me what is it that makes garbodor better than weezing?
Weezing is able to check venusaur and tangrowth better while having an immunity to ground as well as access to willo and taunt, the only times i would ever run garbodor over weezing would be on heavy offense and even then it's probably outclassed by a bunch of stuff(a regular spikes setter etc), it's supposed to be a fighting type resist for offense which means it can't run spdef so:
252+ SpA Life Orb Venusaur Leaf Storm vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Garbodor: 148-175 (40.6 - 48%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
And if you're using lefties garbodor on balance you might as well be using weezing most of the time anyway;I don't see how one is better than the other, if anything weezing should rise, imo
Well I wouldn't necessarily say that Garbodor is better than Weezing in that respect, though they do offer different forms of support so they aren't directly comparable in that sense (Weezing has Wisp and Levitate, Garbo has Spikes and Aftermath). With that said, there's fair reasoning to argue for a Weezing rise.

On the other hand, I'd hardly say that Garbodor is restricted to offensive teams either; Garbodor's more all-around bulk allows it to respond to Venusaur better than Weezing does (which is useful for balance considering Venusaur possesses more longevity than any Fighting-type) while still doing half-decent at fending off Fighting-types, partly due to Aftermath's chip damage. Also, Garbodor's Gunk Shot dispatches Virizion far more efficiently than Weezing's Sludge Bomb, in a similiar manner to Granbull's Play Rough vs Aromatisse's Moonblast. Heck, if you want Garbodor to be a more solid Venusaur response than to be a Fighting response (and it's honestly a somewhat shaky check to all of the dangerous Fighting-types we have here), you can forgo Rocky Helmet and just do Black Sludge; I don't see Garbodor as the kind of mon that can only be run one way, EV investment included.

And for the record, even Garbodor on offensive teams can be EV'd in such a way that it can better handle Venusaur; it's just kind of a tall ask to expect Garbodor to effectively check Fightings (needs Helmet) and Venusaur (needs Black Sludge) at the same time.

252+ Atk Life Orb Reckless Hitmonlee High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 160+ Def Garbodor: 153-181 (42 - 49.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Black Sludge recovery
252+ SpA Life Orb Venusaur Sludge Bomb vs. 252 HP / 96 SpD Garbodor: 92-109 (25.2 - 29.9%) -- 0.1% chance to 4HKO after Black Sludge recovery
252+ SpA Life Orb Venusaur Leaf Storm vs. 252 HP / 96 SpD Garbodor: 133-156 (36.5 - 42.8%) -- 98.1% chance to 3HKO after Black Sludge recovery
 
Last edited:
Alright, let's get down to it:

Garbodor: I really don't see how this is all that great. The only thing it has over Weezing is Spikes, which in turn makes it a weaker Roselia for checking grasses. It also can't check Virizion if it's the SD + Zen Headbutt set, which completely smashes any poison type. It's also got a ground weakness, meaning it is constantly forced out by Flygon because Flygon

a) Resists Poison
b) Is Immune to Spikes
c) hits you for super-effective damage with Earthquake

while a lot of spikers lose to the best defogger in the tier, I think Garbodor's only niche is checking grasses and fightings and setting up spikes, something that Roselia does better due to Natural Cure and Synthesis. The only real advantage Garbodor has over Roselia is that it fits better on Offesnive teams while Roselia fits better on stall, but that's not much. Keep it in B-.

Lilligant: Sure, I'd be fine with this rising. While Fletch in the tier is hard for it, it's actually really hard to stop once it gets going, and because it has sleep powder, it can often buy itself 1-2 free turns to boost itself. While it has abysmal coverage, the only thing that can really come in on all its attacks (assuming Petal Dance + HP Flying) is Escavalier, something that is seeing less and less use. Rise to C-.
 

lighthouses

Inordinary
is a Tiering Contributor
I mean, yeah, it beats virizion better i suppose, but even then it is as shaky as weezing
+2 252 Atk Virizion Zen Headbutt vs. 252 HP / 160+ Def Garbodor: 244-288 (67 - 79.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
And putting 96 more EVs into spdef aren't even gonna help all that much in checking venusaur either way, you just replaced the speed EVs with spdef ones on the spread that is available on the calc for nu, and i don't think aftermath is a big enough asset to be considered a niche over something. If anything it's niche is being able to ohko virizion/having regular spikes versus a ground immunity and access to willo/taunt, i would go with the latter x_x
 

EonX

Battle Soul
is a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Social Media Contributor Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Top Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus
Garbodor: Considering I have experience with this one, let's go. Garbodor is a decent mon, but it has to lose some of its physical bulk to reliably check Venusaur throughout a match. It's complete bait for Mega Steelix because I find it generally wants Pain Split to not get worn down super quick when it's being used to check Venu. It straight up just cannot deter Flygon from switching in and Defogging away Spikes with absolutely no risk. Finally, it has to run Black Sludge to reliably answer Venusaur reliably, whcih means it has to give up Rocky Helmet, which is great in conjunction with Aftermath to punish physical attackers. If you're using Garbodor to check Venusaur, you need a better check to Fighting-types. If you're using Garb to check Fighting-types, you need a sturdier check to Venusaur. And to those saying Weezing can't check Venusaur, it can run a SpDef set and is able to have Will-O-Wisp to still deter physical attackers. Also, Garbodor feels more at home on a balance team rather than offense or full stall. Either way, even though it's a nice Pokemon, I think it should stay in B- rank. If Weezing is staying in B-, so should Garbodor.

Absol: One of the many physical attackers that suffers heavily from the current state of the meta. It has an incredibly difficult time breaking Mega Lix + Mola cores and is slower than Venusaur (Sucker Punch helps here tho) It hits really hard and can be quite threatening to more offensive builds, but its complete inability to break the most common balance core (or core in general tbh) is kind of bad. It's very good, but just suffers a lot from the way the meta is shaped right now. So, drop to B+ rank.

Manectric: And here we have a Pokemon that is able to pressure the most common core in the tier. That said, it has to run Overheat to OHKO Mega Lix (seriously, this is one bulky mofo) However, Manectric is still better than Jolteon in most aspects since offensive teams aren't as common as balance teams are right now and that's where Manectric truly shines. Electric + Fire coverage is not that easy for balance teams to switch into if they lack Diancie. It's not easy to use due to the frailty and being outsped by Virizion and hard checked by Diancie is kind of rough, but being able to beat the Mega Lix + Venu + fat Water core that is so common these days is very useful. So it should stay in A- rank imo.

Going to requote myself about Articuno since that seemingly fell ignored:

Going for it. Gonna nominate Articuno for C+ rank.

So, at first glance, Articuno looks kind of bad. Ice / Flying typing gives it a 4x weakness to hazards and quite a few weaknesses that are easy to exploit. Its highest stats are Special Defense and Defense while its Special Attack is barely higher than normal Abomasnow's and much lower than Mega Glalie's. However, get past the flaws and Articuno actually has quite a few neat perks in the current meta. Access to Freeze-Dry and Hurricane makes it quite difficult for teams lacking a pure Steel-type (or Bronzong, but that's awful) to switch into Articuno reliably. It's one of very few Pokemon in the tier that can pressure the ever-so-common Mega Steelix - Alomomola - Venusaur core. It outspeeds and can switch into Venusaur (Sludge Bomb poisoning can hurt, so only do this if you need to be aggressive or if you lack a defensive response) and it obviously puts heavy pressure on Alomomola with Freeze-Dry while Mega Steelix takes a clean 35-40% from switching into Freeze-Dry, meaning it can only switch in once unless it receives a Wish. Considering how common this core is right now, that's very big.

The Speed tier is also very nice; sitting at base 85. While this may not seem like much at first glance, Articuno is able to outspeed the extremely crowded base 70-80 Speed tier (Tyrantrum, Hoopa, Samurott, Venusaur, Absol, Medicham, Adamant Hitmonlee, Adamant Sawk just to name a few key things Cuno outspeeds) While Ice / Flying isn't a great defensive typing, Articuno does have a crucial resistance to Grass and anything its neutral to means it can likely tank and strike back with relative ease if the situation calls for it. Lastly, while Articuno requires hazard control, it's not like you have to look very far in this meta to get it with Flygon and Blastoise being so reliable at it. When I look at C+ rank as it's currently constructed, the only 2 Pokemon I feel are on Articuno's performance level / capability are Hariyama (for the ability to check Houndoom and Mega Glalie in one slot. BTW, Articuno is an Ice-type that pushes heavy damage on it!) and Hitmontop (spin support for Alomomola and / or stall teams) I could go into why Articuno is probably better than the rest of the C+ mons, but I don't feel I should have to. And it's definitely better than the C rank mons considering it can be used on more than one team archtype and is able to pressure the most common balance core in the tier right now (and switch into 2 parts of it!)
 
Keep Qwilfish in B+. Although it does face a lot of pressure from the likes of Venusaur and the aforementioned Flygon, it' still very good at what it does.

Keep Absol in A-. Its defensive downfalls are definitely made up for with its sheer offensive power and pressuring capabilities.

Gonna go with a strange nom of Pinsir to C+/B-. Coverage, power, and two great abilities allow Pinsir to be very threatening; however, its middling speed lets it down, as does its HP and Special defense, which undermines its nice physical bulk. Also, it does have a crappy typing. Definitely worth C+/B-, though.

Spirit edit:

**Post 3 Replays when nominating something to be ranked that's not on the list, read the op for more info

Will do, thanks Spirit; my teams got lost, so I'll work on getting those
 
Last edited:
Status
Not open for further replies.

Users Who Are Viewing This Thread (Users: 1, Guests: 0)

Top