ElectivireRocks
Banned deucer.
Just because something doesn't end up banned it doesnt mean that a suspect test was "a waste of time". Just saying.
It is a waste of time. Suspect test take up a lot of people's time. Also I'm sure the people with the tiering badge have some requirements to keep that badge active. Why waste people's time on an issue that has no chance to get anywhere? An alternate tier/ladder should be good enough....then everyone can see how bad it would be.Just because something doesn't end up banned it doesnt mean that a suspect test was "a waste of time". Just saying.
Nah, it's not even that. If I remember correctly, Aldaron had mentioned someplace (concerning Rain) that running out of time isn't an issue if suspect testing needs to be done. My problem is that banning SR isn't what will possibly advance the metagame, it'll be all the further banning that needs to be done afterwards. If we are going to flip up the metagame and go on possible banning sprees I'd much rather take the weather route than waste time on the irrelevant Stealth Rock.2) Stealth Rock is found to be broken and is banned. The resulting metagame is absolute chaos (you CAN'T deny that the metagame would be fucked for a while, considering how influential Stealth Rock is), and we don't have enough time to balance it/suspect broken things without Stealth Rock.
I already explained more things in older posts in this thread, so please read entire discussion before judge. Actually my logic told exactly the opposite as you said. Without SR Volcarona (and other threats like Dragonite, etcetc) will be even more dangerous as they are atm and that's surely not good. Thinking about future ban for these threats is simply fool (as this ban-ban-ban-ban method is), you can't do all these things in 4 months (yeah, after that the 90% of Smogon won't care about BW2 and there aren't faults in this).In one post you've managed to go against everything Smogon stands for so props for that. We ban things that are broken, that's that. When Tornadus-T and Genesect were banned, we didn't take into account that it could possibly make other Pokemon broken. We didn't say "Oh, but Celebi could be broken" or "Keldeo might be broken now". They were voted as broken and therefore banned.
Besides, are you actually saying that the likes of Yanmega and Moltres are in those lower tiers for reasons besides Stealth Rock? So you're still saying they will always be UU or RU? That's an incredibly naive thing to say. These are otherwise great Pokemon. Applying your logic, Volcarona would be no better without Stealth Rock. Nobody wants to see Moltres or Yanmega in OU because they like them. They want them there because that's where they deserve to be.
How is SR irrelevant when the entire metagame revolves around it? Over 90% of OU teams use it, it's considered standard battle conditions. Sun is used noticeably less than Rain and Sand, and Hail is non-existent. It's the sole reason why using more than 1 pokemon that's weak to it without a spinner is rarely to never seen. Kyurem-B is sitting here in OU, why Dragonite and Volcarona hasn't been suspected yet, and a handful of pokemon great typing and stats, and movepools aren't ever seen in OU.Nah, it's not even that. If I remember correctly, Aldaron had mentioned someplace (concerning Rain) that running out of time isn't an issue if suspect testing needs to be done. My problem is that banning SR isn't what will possibly advance the metagame, it'll be all the further banning that needs to be done afterwards. If we are going to flip up the metagame and go on possible banning sprees I'd much rather take the weather route than waste time on the irrelevant Stealth Rock.
Is it possible to ban SR in OU (if it is ban-worthy) and leave it legal in other tiers? Either way the removal of SR will likely cause Volcarona usage to skyrocket to Politoed levels, and it would likely be suspected.In my opinion in the lower tier such as NU. Pokes such as Charizard or Quiver dance Butterfree will rise in usage or even better go to RU or upper if SR gets ban hammered.
Just to note that I have another opinion on Volcarona may be broken in OU unless there is good proper counters specially on sun teams. I don't know about dragonite but it could be a uber candidate if it over centralises the metagame. Its still 4th in OU usage right now even with SR present due to multiscale.
What? I don't understand how you could possibly argue that banning SR, an important move that sees use across four different metagames would even be comparable to banning Salamence, a ban some people did not agree with in the first place. Sure we have no way of knowing for sure what will happen, but I don't need theorymon to know that banning SR will have a far greater impact than banning one Pokemon.I'm sure people might bring up that the impact banning Stealth Rock might have would very possibly be more significant than Salamence's ban, but we have no way of knowing that, and using theorymon about what will happen to the metagame as a justification for not testing SR is in poor taste.
This I have some issues with. Not everyone agrees that Stealth Rock is ban-worthy either. The most popular opinion as determined by the polls is "SR should not be suspected and is most likely not broken". The second most popular opinion is "Could be useful, even though SR might not broken", which recognizes that Stealth Rock might not be broken, but simply wants the suspect test for the information it might give us and the possibilities for a better metagame. A lot more people are fine with Stealth Rock than you may think, but it's just that they're just less vocal about it in this thread; besides, it's the pro-ban faction that needs to convince the community that a suspect test is needed, not the anti-ban faction.What? I don't understand how you could possibly argue that banning SR, an important move that sees use across four different metagames would even be comparable to banning Salamence, a ban some people did not agree with in the first place. Sure we have no way of knowing for sure what will happen, but I don't need theorymon to know that banning SR will have a far greater impact than banning one Pokemon.
You "know" that based on theorymon. Since there has never been a suspect test, or even a ladder, for a meta without SR, there is nothing but theorymon you can rely on to reach the conclusion that its impact would be greater than banning X pokemon. I'm not suggesting that banning SR will have a comparable impact on the metagame, but using theorymon as a reason not to test something has never been done and is counterproductive to what we try to achieve in the tiering process (getting rid of broken things in order to approach a more balanced, competitive metagame).What? I don't understand how you could possibly argue that banning SR, an important move that sees use across four different metagames would even be comparable to banning Salamence, a ban some people did not agree with in the first place. Sure we have no way of knowing for sure what will happen, but I don't need theorymon to know that banning SR will have a far greater impact than banning one Pokemon.
I am against the ban, and I agree with you. In retrospect that comment on Salamence's ban had nothing to do with what I was arguing. Point being that we can talk smack about theorymon all we want, but ultimately a ban like SR will undoubtedly have such an impact, for reasons Katakiri stated above and I in a previous post, that I don't see how you can compare this ban to one like Salamence. That's all.This I have some issues with. Not everyone agrees that Stealth Rock is ban-worthy either. The most popular opinion as determined by the polls is "SR should not be suspected and is most likely not broken". The second most popular opinion is "Could be useful, even though SR might not broken", which recognizes that Stealth Rock might not be broken, but simply wants the suspect test for the information it might give us and the possibilities for a better metagame. A lot more people are fine with Stealth Rock than you may think, but it's just that they're just less vocal about it in this thread; besides, it's the pro-ban faction that needs to convince the community that a suspect test is needed, not the anti-ban faction.
Eh, fair enough. This is why I suggested a ladder without SR, I'm not at all opposed to experimenting but am opposed to even the possibility of banning it. IMO it's simply too big a fish to fry at this point.You "know" that based on theorymon. Since there has never been a suspect test, or even a ladder, for a meta without SR, there is nothing but theorymon you can rely on to reach the conclusion that its impact would be greater than banning X pokemon. I'm not suggesting that banning SR will have a comparable impact on the metagame, but using theorymon as a reason not to test something has never been done and is counterproductive to what we try to achieve in the tiering process (getting rid of broken things in order to approach a more balanced, competitive metagame).
I am not playing for fun, this line of reasoning is moot. :PEDIT and what if the metagame does turn out to be more fun sans rocks? i've heard from several adv players that sr is the main reason they don't play newer gens. if it does, you'll get more people still playing bw2. while i'm not saying it's gonna happen, it's possible - and in the end, everyone here is playing for fun.
Volcarona overcoming Stealth Rock doesn't mean these pokemon are weak or don't deserve to be OU. They have all the chances in the world of being OU if it weren't for stealth rock. Volcarona overcoming Stealth Rock only proves that Volcarona is borderline broken and it would most definitely be suspect if stealth rock weren't around.I voted no for a few reasons that probably have been addressed and argued in this thread already, but I am going to speak my mind. First off, Stealth Rock punishes one of the most powerful tools in the game, switching, and with exception to Pokemon that resist it, it effects almost all Pokemon universally. Switching is even more dangerous in BW than in the past thanks to the infamous volt-turn combo, not to mention anything else that can use those moves. Perhaps this is a bit of a jump, but without Stlealth Rock, they would run amuk, even more so then then did back in the end of BW1.
Outside of that, I just think its a move mechanic that is part of the game, I have a hard time agreeing with move bans unless they are justified for bigger reasons like being un-competitive or just flat out beyond annoying, Stealth Rock is neither.
Also, I couldn't care about Moltres and Yanmega at all, if a Pokemon is good enough, it would overcome it's problems like Volcarona has shown. These Pokemon don't deserve to be in the metagame any more than any other Pokemon.
I am not playing for fun, this line of reasoning is moot. :P
Is it really important having 18 other pokèmon -with their flaws- in OU (this means they won't be playable in UU-&lower) ? I don't feel the need of them, really.Volcarona overcoming Stealth Rock doesn't mean these pokemon are weak or don't deserve to be OU. They have all the chances in the world of being OU if it weren't for stealth rock. Volcarona overcoming Stealth Rock only proves that Volcarona is borderline broken and it would most definitely be suspect if stealth rock weren't around.
Stealth Rock isn't uncompetitive as you say but there are plenty of people that would disagree with you that Stealth Rock isn't annoying. Also, Stealth Rock is so intergrated into the metagame that it may just be unhealthy for the metagame. You probably didn't see my post where I said that 18 different pokemon have a chance at being ou if Stealth Rock weren't in OU so I'll just reiterate myself now. 18 different pokemon have a chance at being OU without Stealth Rock. Compare that to the 3 or so pokemon that would be suspect if stealth rock were banned.
lol wtfFinally even if Stealth Rock were to leave, Spikes and Toxic Spikes are still around to put a limit on Volt-turn teams. That said I can see this argument's validity considering Rotom-W and Landorus can easily get over that.