Theorymon Discussion and Viability Ranking

[Neliel]

I was referring to offensive sets, max hp latias isnt used because then it just loses against steel types like scizor or tyranitar, that are often paired with keldeo, so what i said its true, ice beam doesnt change much, icy wind doesnt directly ko but it lowers the speed so..

252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Icy Wind vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Latias: 144-170 (47.68 - 56.29%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Regarding scarf keldeo, you are right, it only 2koes latios.

 

[Prinz]

252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Icy Wind vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Latias: 144-170 (39.56 - 46.7%) -- 1.17% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252 SpA Keldeo Hidden Power Ice vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Latias: 122-144 (33.51 - 39.56%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock

252 SpA Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Latias in rain: 117-138 (32.14 - 37.91%) -- 99.56% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock

Pretty sure he was speaking about offensive variants of Latias (0 EVs in HP).

EDIT: ninja'd :(

 

[Chan]

I feel like a lot of these are completely missing the potential of the theorycrafting. Top 10 Pokemon do not need new moves to cement them as forever staples of the game. This thread should be about (balanced) additions that help bring weaker Pokemon to the forefront with a theorycrafted new ability/move. Things like Tyranitar, Keldeo, and others don't need any help and slapping obviously strong things like Drought/Drizzle requires heavy argumentation to support.

I'd say a staple wish for quite some time of the Pokemon community in general is Head Smash Aerodactyl.

In Gen III, Aerodactyl was quite a menace with his speed, attack coverage and general usefulness as a Choice Bander. With Gen IV, he transitioned to a suicide lead just designed to get Stealth Rock down and be done. He's fallen out in Gen V with the introduction to Team Preview and he doesn't carry enough power anymore to serve as a Choice Bander. Giving him Head Smash would be poised to bring him back to his Gen III usefulness and turn him into the fearsome revenge killer some remember from Gen III with the 150 BP STAB attack. Aerodactyl's attack stat of 105 doesn't always compensate for his paper defenses and so like other Pokemon who need to get those OHKO's or 2HKO switch ins, he needs as high BP moves as possible(same situation with Infernape).

 

[GCSChris]

@ Ice Beam Keldeo, that would be so good. Due to the weakness in base power of Icy Wind, Keldeo is forced to choose between HP Ice of HP ghost/electric (IMO electric is better for hitting gyrados and Jellicent, even though Jellicent can take it reasonably well). Like Jukain said, this would give Keldeo one counter depedning on the Hidden Power it runs, which is pretty powerful.

 

[noobcubed]

On ice beam keldeo, i think ice beam tips it over the edge into broken. Being able to choose between hidden power bug, ghost and electric means it can beat any of its "counter" depending on the set it runs. Since it's not going to be using these hidden powers except to kill the counters anyway you can't really scout to see what hp it is running. So effectively it can tailor its movepool to prevent anything from stopping it doing its job, and there is no way of knowing what anti-counter move it has until it's too late. Deoxys-d was banned for similar reasons.

 

[Prinz]

What if Bronzong got Heal Bell?

In my opinion, it should be really useful, especially in Rain Stall which need a way to cure annoying status and which don't want to use Blissey or Chansey as their cleric. After all, it's a bell, why doesn't it learn Heal Bell? I don't really know. How do you guys think about it?

 

[BKC]

recover/roost cress would be amazing. think lugia without the sr weakness.

what if the lati twins got flamethrower/fire blast? they are dragons, and dragons breathe fire, so... it'd be the biggest 'fuck you' to ferrothorn, scizor, and generally steels not named heatran/empoleon.

 

[SmashBrosBrawl]

What if snorlax had slack off?

Goodbye rest talk. Now snorlax can just use instant recovery to easily stall out opponents and frees up a moveslot. This open rooms for coverage moves in bulk sets (earthquake anyone?) and could be helpful in the offensive set with leftovers. Heck you could give snorlax life orb and call it a day since slack off would restore all the lost health.

 

[Neliel]

What if Bronzong got Heal Bell?

In my opinion, it should be really useful, especially in Rain Stall which need a way to cure annoying status and which don't want to use Blissey or Chansey as their cleric. After all, it's a bell, why doesn't it learn Heal Bell? I don't really know. How do you guys think about it?

well, bronzong would steel have problem using that move because it is often used with stealth rock / toxic / gyro ball / eq / protect, removing one of those for example would give you more problems, like finding a replacement for sr or having a bronzong that loses to kyub (without gyro ball). His lack of recovery also doesnt make it the perfect choice as a beller, i dont think it would matter that much.

anyway, i have an another question, what if heracross got ice punch?

You know already a lot of fighing types has that move, so it wouldnt be that strange. With that move, heracross will beat landorus/gliscor more easily, also catching dragonite without the fear of a stone miss, basically beating all the check it has right now. A scarf set would probably be more viable, with moxie, ice punch, pursuit and a resistance to fighting i can see it outclassing scarf terrakion in some way, though its speed isnt the best. The ou metagame is already full of great fighting types, so would you use it? what specific role can heracross do that makes it worth a slot?

 

[Prinz]

What if snorlax had slack off?

Goodbye rest talk. Now snorlax can just use instant recovery to easily stall out opponents and frees up a moveslot. This open rooms for coverage moves in bulk sets (earthquake anyone?) and could be helpful in the offensive set with leftovers. Heck you could give snorlax life orb and call it a day since slack off would restore all the lost health.

While Snorlax will improve a lot with Slack Off, I am not sure it will have a spot in OU tier. It's Fight-weak and in the current BW2 metagame Fight-types are everywhere, think about Terrakion, Breloom and Keldeo or a mons which have Fight-type moves in their moverpool like Scizor and Landorus-I. Maybe it will be just a useful mons to trap and kill Lati Twins (yes, Specially Defensive set with Pursuit and Slack Off could work) and not more. Snorlax will improve but it will keep a mediocre mon, unfortunately.

 

[Neliel]

recover/roost cress would be amazing. think lugia without the sr weakness.

what if the lati twins got flamethrower/fire blast? they are dragons, and dragons breathe fire, so... it'd be the biggest 'fuck you' to ferrothorn, scizor, and generally steels not named heatran/empoleon.

I've always wondered why latios and latias didnt get a fire move, but tbh with that move they would become too strong, leaving only sp def ttar and rain jirachi as true checks for it, and maybe others underused stuff. A simple set of fire blast / Draco meteor / surf / roost will basically beat any switch in :x

 

[Legitimate Username]

What if Meloetta could start in Pirouette forme?

Meloetta would probably rise to OU pretty quickly, with that incredible base 128 Speed and Attack. Choice Banded sets would probably be the most popular, abusing Close Combat, Return, and coverage moves such as Ice Punch, Stone Edge, and Shadow Claw. Hone Claws would likely be common as well, giving Stone Edge perfect accuracy besides boosting Meloetta's attack.

While the above seems pretty obvious, I think that the more interesting change would be Mixed Relic Song Meloetta gaining some effectiveness as well. When starting off in Pirouette forme, people would generally expect Close Combat spam. But by transforming instead, Meloetta gets the chance to surprise a physical wall and force more switches.

 

[SmashBrosBrawl]

While Snorlax will improve a lot with Slack Off, I am not sure it will have a spot in OU tier. It's Fight-weak and in the current BW2 metagame Fight-types are everywhere, think about Terrakion, Breloom and Keldeo or a mons which have Fight-type moves in their moverpool like Scizor and Landorus-I. Maybe it will be just a useful mons to trap and kill Lati Twins (yes, Specially Defensive set with Pursuit and Slack Off could work) and not more. Snorlax will improve but it will keep a mediocre mon, unfortunately.

Meh we still have shit like blissey around the tier so i dont see how snorlax couldnt have a chance. Checks latiwins, sun teams, gengar etc. A simple sp def set with slack off+3 moves could work as you said.

 

[Explorer]

What if Latios and Latias got Aura Sphere?

One of the largest issues for the two eon pokemon is tyranitar (among other pursuit trappers). Scizor, though, can be dealth with by using HP Fire, but the two don't have much besides specs surf to deal with TTar. With aura sphere, this changes (while also offering practically perfect coverage in general alongside the dragon stab)

252 SpA Expert Belt Latios Aura Sphere vs. 180 HP / 0 SpD Tyranitar: 475-562 (123.05 - 145.59%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Does this calc account for the SpD boost provided to Tyranitar by Sandstorm?

Celebi is so versatile, in fact, that I am going to toss another idea into the mix:
What if Celebi got Serene Grace?

Celebi, being Jirachi's counterpart, may certainly have gotten the ability. Earth Power and Psychic will both give SpD drops more often, a welcome bonus. Charge Beam would ALWAYS give Celebi a +1, making it dangerous very quickly, given that it has Recover and Giga Drain. Thus Celebi's most common moves that get boosts are offensive. Celebi's Body Slam also has a 60% paralysis rate like Jirachi's. However, this rivals Celebi's defensive move pool, so would those sets continue to be used more instead?

 

[AJC]

here is one.

What if Heatran got Shell Smash

for one this would make offensive heatran much more scary as now you suddenly go from a meager 253 speed if modest to a sky high 506 allowing you to outpace all of the unboosted metagame and with +2 sp.atk you melt anything that doesn't resist your attacks especially in the sun and you resist all priority but mach punch/v-wave and aqua jet making this a really mean smasher.

 

[bobbyvaporeon]

What if Scizor learned Crabhammer?
Scizor has big Crab arms, so it is feasible for it to learn Crabhammer. With this he would be no longer walled by Heatran, one of his best counters.
What if Arm Thrust got raised to 25 BP, and Breloom received it?
Picture a better Bullet Seed. Breloom would become so much better, as Arm Thrust is almost always stronger than Low Sweep.

 

[Neliel]

here is one.

What if Heatran got Shell Smash

for one this would make offensive heatran much more scary as now you suddenly go from a meager 253 speed if modest to a sky high 506 allowing you to outpace all of the unboosted metagame and with +2 sp.atk you melt anything that doesn't resist your attacks especially in the sun and you resist all priority but mach punch/v-wave and aqua jet making this a really mean smasher.

calcs of +2 heatran under sun:

+2 252+ SpA Heatran Fire Blast vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Keldeo in sun: 352-414 (108.64 - 127.77%) -- guaranteed OHKO


+2 252+ SpA Heatran Hidden Power Ice vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Latias: 268-316 (88.74 - 104.63%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

+2 252+ SpA Heatran Fire Blast vs. 4 HP / 252+ SpD Blissey in sun: 378-445 (57.97 - 68.25%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

I think it would be just too much. Its fantastic typing gives heatran a lot of chance to setup, especially with air baloon and sun up ( just saying, if you want to use life orb... +2 252+ SpA Life Orb Heatran Fire Blast vs. 4 HP / 252+ SpD Blissey in sun: 491-578 (75.3 - 88.65%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock ) and will leave only special defensive politoed and special defensive ttar as checks for it. Breloom would be a must in every team, being the only priority that can ko it... (only with a choice band) it would make sun teams even more ridicolous than they already are, lets say a team composed by ninetales + a trapper for tyranitar and politoed + heatran and you will have a guaranted win.. it wouldnt be fun.

 

[Bulgrom]

What if Scizor learned Crabhammer?
Scizor has big Crab arms, so it is feasible for it to learn Crabhammer. With this he would be no longer walled by Heatran, one of his best counters.

Superpower do already the job. And actually, Heatran could survive to a CB crabhammer (unlike superpower), which may be annoying for you.
It may be interresting on rain teams though. But with water resistance everywhere, no stab on it and Ferrothorn walling you now, I don't see much potential.

 

[Halcyon.]

What if Meloetta could start in Pirouette forme?

Meloetta would probably rise to OU pretty quickly, with that incredible base 128 Speed and Attack. Choice Banded sets would probably be the most popular, abusing Close Combat, Return, and coverage moves such as Ice Punch, Stone Edge, and Shadow Claw. Hone Claws would likely be common as well, giving Stone Edge perfect accuracy besides boosting Meloetta's attack.

While the above seems pretty obvious, I think that the more interesting change would be Mixed Relic Song Meloetta gaining some effectiveness as well. When starting off in Pirouette forme, people would generally expect Close Combat spam. But by transforming instead, Meloetta gets the chance to surprise a physical wall and force more switches.

Yeah, I think Meloetta-P would be a seriously good Pokémon to use. It's speed is probably the best thing it has going for it, as it can outspeed pesky Alakazm and Gengar that can otherwise be a pain for Fighting types. With a set of Close Combat / Ice Punch / ThunderPunch / Return, it does some serious work, where only things like Hippowdon are safe from a 2HKO. I think it would be a really cool alternative to Terrakion, being just as powerful, but having 20 extra points in speed. Though it lacks any setup moves (no Swords Dance? Really?), so Terrakion would still have a niche in the metagame.

 

[Neliel]

Yeah, I think Meloetta-P would be a seriously good Pokémon to use. It's speed is probably the best thing it has going for it, as it can outspeed pesky Alakazm and Gengar that can otherwise be a pain for Fighting types. With a set of Close Combat / Ice Punch / ThunderPunch / Return, it does some serious work, where only things like Hippowdon are safe from a 2HKO. I think it would be a really cool alternative to Terrakion, being just as powerful, but having 20 extra points in speed. Though it lacks any setup moves (no Swords Dance? Really?), so Terrakion would still have a niche in the metagame.

apparently, meloetta also got u-turn. U-turn its too good to not be used, really.. it gives you momentum, while koing celebi at the same time... return offers poor coverage imo so u-turn can be used instead. Also, even with adamant it has 355 speed, which is enough to outspeed latios, only missing few things like starmie and alakazam, so i guess adamant would work too. With adamant, even pdef hippowdown will be 2koed...
252+ Atk Choice Band Meloetta-P Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 205-243 (48.8 - 57.85%) -- 97.66% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
With this thing ou, i guess that slowbro will see more usage especially in defensive teams, because it only takes (45.68 - 54.31%) from thunderpunch, and thanks to regenerator that damage isnt a big deal. I guess you have to rely on priority to beat it with an offensive teams, especially LO breloom and cb zor.

 

[lousy918]

gg guys

I thought the first post already stated not to mention game breaking moves and used shell smash as an example

 

[alexwolf]

@ Ice Beam Keldeo and Hurricane Landorus

Those moves would easily break those two Pokemon, making them impossible to counter anymore and forcing teams to rely on a few checks to deal with them.

@ Katakiri

Holy shit! I didn't know that this would happen if Weavile got Technician, so it could easily end up being a bit too powerful for OU to handle, with the only Pokemon not 2HKOed by max power Beat Up + coverage move being Skarmory and Forretress. Now, ignoring Beat Up, Technician Weavile would become one of the best offensive utility Pokemon in OU, providing buffed up Ice Shard and Pursuit services, while being very hard to switch into.

Chou Toshio

Really cool idea man, and very fitting flavor-wise. Imo, Escavalier with Dry Skin would easily get enough usage to become OU, as it has so many uses, even on a Pokemon with so poor movepool. We all know how powerful of an ability Dry Skin is from Toxicroak, a Pokemon with bad stats that manages to shine in OU thanks to its ability. Here are the two best sets that i think Escavalier would have in OU:

Escavalier @ Leftovers / Lum Berry
Trait: Dry Skin
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SAtk / 4 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Substitute / Protect
- Swords Dance
- Megahorn
- Iron Head

This set would allow Escavalier to become a threatening boosting sweeper. Thanks to its good bulk and Dry Skin, it will manage to succeed with such a set even with its pathetic Speed, as so many Pokemon fail to do anything significant back to Escavalier. SD is used to solve the problem of Escavalier's poor coverage, allowing it to do something constructive against all the Pokemon it walls and threaten even resists at +2. If this set is used in rain, almost nothing other than Skarmory, Heatran, Magnezone with HP Fire, and Ninetales can counter it, as even Pokemon that resist its STAB moves, such as Scizor, Tentacruel, Keldeo, Jellicent, and Gyarados, cannot do anything significant back and get 2HKOed at +2 (you need Lum Berry + Sub to get past Taunt + WoW Jellicent. Use SD as it comes in, and then setup a Sub as it goes for the WoW, and then take your time to either stall it out of Recover PPs or OHKO it with a crit Megahorn).

However, the set that i would be more interested in and i think would be the most successful overall is this one:

Escavalier @ Leftovers
Trait: Dry Skin
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Megahorn
- Pursuit
- Protect
- Toxic / Swords Dance / Iron Head

The ability to counter and trap with Pursuit so many special attackers is crazy. Latias, Gengar, any Alakazam without HP Fire + LO (the only way Zam can 2HKO Escavalier in rain), Starmie, and any Latios that doesn't have HP Fire + LO or Specs, all those Pokemon are beaten 100% of the time by Escavalier, unlike with Scizor and Tyranitar, that all must take certain risks in order to switch into those Pokemon. Protect + Rain Dish does miracles to a Pokemon's survivability and its passive healing is crazy, as we all know by Toxicroak, a frail Pokemon that manages to use bulky sets solely because of this ability. On the last slot, Toxic enables Escavalier to cripple many Pokemon that would otherwise wall it, such as Jellicent, SubDD Gyarados, Conkeldurr, and Landorus-T (some of them you need to catch on the switch though) and makes it slightly-less set-up bait, while SD makes Escavalier generally more threatening for the Pokemon that can't immediately threaten it back and would want to face it (Tentacruel, Gyarados, Landorus-T, Forretress). Finally, Iron Head makes dealing with Outraging Dragon-types easier, especially Kyurem-B which Escavalier checks pretty well, and makes Escavalier impossible to setup on with Terrakion.

Are you kidding me? Even if Weavile got Technician, it would just make his attacking power OU worthy, not anything special. He'd still be hitting with attacks overall weaker than Alakazam, and just barely matching Gengar's offensive power. His offensive power would still be far trailing behind something like Thunder Jolteon in rain for instance.

Moreover, Weavile would still be dealing with paper thin defenses and literally NOTHING to switch in against. Furthermore, he's not like Alakazam, who can use a sash to preserve himself-- he's weak to SR and vulnerable to EVERY passive damage.

Weavile's lack of power is a big flaw to be sure.

However, what REALLY prevents Weavile from excelling in OU is its poor defenses and lack of resistances / immunities to use easily. Furthermore, even with Technician, his ability to hit Steel-types would still be pretty damn lacking.

Overall, Technician would only restore Weavile's place in the 30-40 range of OU-- it wouldn't come anywhere close to making Weavile a monster. It would still be a very niche use Pokemon; it would just be much more effective at its niche.

Chou did you not see Katakiri's calculations of Beat Up? Even if 2 of your Pokemon are dead or statused, Weavile's Beat Up still hits stronger than LO Alakazam's Psychic, contrary to what you stated. Outside of Skarmory and Forretress nothing could counter Weavile, so i am not sure what you mean by ''lack of power''.

 

[Mosquiton]

What if Gengar learned Nasty Plot?

As you all know gengar has a lot of chance to setup a sub thanks to his common immunity and resistance.
substitute is used with disable to check choiced pokemon, but if it were possible to use substitute alongside NastyPlot? Gengar would become the perfect wallbreaker, every counter would take a safe 2HKO to shadowball and focusblast (i'm talking about Blissey and Jirachi) and this really cause the death of the stall teams. In essence Gengar would definitely easy setup thanks to its two immunities (fight and Ground), but i don't think that would end up in uber because it is still a very fragile Pokémon and weak to priority: I think, as always, Scizor would be useful for the revengekill of gengar but only if we will not be too stupid to be guranted a turn for the substitute and a turn for the boost :3

Gengar (M) @ Black Sludge
Trait: Levitate
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
- Shadow Ball
- Substitute
- Nasty Plot
- Focus Blast

 

[Leafshield]

I think as we can all tell, the original discussion choice in the OP referring to Ice Beam Keldeo was quickly deemed to be very, very good. Not only does it remove its counters from play with the use of a Hidden Power, but it also gives him high powered coverage on non-Choiced sets that allows him to hit checks such as Celebi, CM Latias, and others extremely hard. It would go down to Jellicent or Tentacruel to combat him, but even then the user still has the option of a Hidden Power to hit both very hard (Electric hits both, but hits Jelli harder, iirc. Psychic hits Tenta harder, I think, but not as much with Jelli). All in all, I think the gallery has come up with the conclusion that Ice Beam Keldeo may be a little too good for this metagame, if not completely broken according to a few's arguments on the matter.

So, I suggest we funnel in on another topic so the comments and discussion are more centralized, allowing for more focused and in-depth arguments on the Pokémon at hand. I'm not saying that all of the ideas being ushered into this thread are bad or unwelcomed by any means, but I suggest that we should go one at a time, so there's healthy conversation instead of multiple, not so healthy conversations that have one comment and then are forgotten.

So, I think we should talk about a Pokémon that doesn't see much use in the OU tier, but can do serious work with its good typing, great stats, and wide movepool (in both attacking and support):

Cobalion​

Now, as we all may know, Cobalion's speed and monstrous Defense stat, as well as access to Taunt, Stealth Rock, Thunder Wave, and Volt Switch make it a great utility Pokémon in OU. One of its only downsides is its very weak Special Defense stat, sitting at 72. While its offensive sets have great coverage and pack decent power, Cobalion seems to still get pushed away due to Lucario sharing the same typing and better offensive stats. This makes Cobalion mostly outclassed as an attacker. Another unfortunate downside of Cobalion's is that one of his most exploitable weaknesses, that in Fire-, makes him near dead weight on Sun teams, as most things like to outspeed it and fire off HP Fire and Fire Blasts, aimed at its very weak Special Defense. How can this problem be remedied?

What if Cobalion received Heatproof from the Dream World?

Heatproof, as we all know, is an ability that acts as a buffer against Fire-Type attacks. Said Fire-Type attacks are Cobalion's worst nightmare, but now they can be properly dealt with due to its new ability. Some calcs for reference on Cobalion's new ability helping it out in sticky situations involving threatening Pokémon like Venusaur and HP Fire Latias:

252 SpA Life Orb Latias Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Cobalion in sun: 351-413 (90.93 - 106.99%) -- 43.75% chance to OHKO

As we can see, Cobalion is absolutely raped by HP Fire in sun by the ever common Latias. But, let's take a look at how he fares with his new ability:

252 SpA Life Orb Latias Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Heatproof Cobalion in sun: 177-211 (45.85 - 54.66%) -- 26.17% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

As we can see, Timid Latias can only attempt to 2HKO Heatproof Cobalion in the sun with HP Fire. Also note that this is without any Special Defense investment on Cobalion. Let's see some investment come into play:

252 SpA Life Orb Latias Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 48 SpD Heatproof Cobalion in sun: 164-195 (42.48 - 50.51%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock

With only some investment in Special Defense, Cobalion comfortably takes at least 3 Hidden Power Fires from Latias in the sun. Not only is this a fantastic change from before, but it means that Cobalion can afford to run a Speed boosting nature over a SpDef boosting nature in order to help outspeed certain threats.

Now we move onto Venusaur, who is an absolute nuke in the sun:

+2 252 SpA Life Orb Venusaur Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 48 SpD Heatproof Cobalion in sun: 307-361 (79.53 - 93.52%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

With only a small amount of investment, Cobalion can tank a +2 HP Fire from Venusaur in the sun. Without a boost, it's only a 3HKO at best, and after the weather war is won by your team, it doesn't even come close.

Mind you, Cobalion is still nuked by Volc in the sun with Fire Blast, but not much isn't so I don't find that surprising :P. Also keep in mind that you can run a healthy amount of SpDef investment over Defense in order to use its typing to tank the special hits instead of the physical Fighting-Type attacks that give it trouble.

I think this could use more discussion, so feel free to help me out on this!

 

[alexwolf]

Wow Leafshield, really interesting idea. While the Latias calcuilations have little merit, as Cobalion is not meant to switch into it anyway, the Venusaur calcs are awesome, and show that with HP investment Cobalion can become a perfect check to Venusaur, taking everything it commonly uses and crippling back with Thunder Wave. Also, Heatproof would allow speedy Cobalion to act as a perfect counter to DD Dragonite (which usually forgoes EQ in favor of Fire Punch or Extremespeed), and as an even better check to Dragon Dance Salamence and Choice Scarf Salamence (+1 LO-less EQ cannot OHKO Cobalion even after SR). Would be a really neat addition to the OU repertoire!