Pokémon Movepool Oddities & Explanations

I'm so glad I discovered this goldmine of a thread. You have no idea.

I made a post on Bulbapedia a couple years ago about Tauros and Surf:

"It is mentioned that Tauros' name might reference the Tauros constellation most of us might be familiar with, but there are Greek legends about bulls swimming through large bodies of water and yes, they all involve the bulls carrying a being (often female). One in particular tells the tale of how the thunder god Zeus falls in love with a woman named Europa, but his status as a god deters him from approaching her. So, he turns himself into a [very handsome] bull and when Europa sees him, she is smitten instantly. She is coaxed into climbing onto the bull's back and he carries her to Crete (crossing the ocean to do so). Here is an interpretation of the myth in the form of a painting (there are several others). The myth also explains why Tauros is capable of learning the move Surf, and there exist other myths featuring women infatuated with bulls riding them across the ocean, such as Paciphae riding a bull she was cursed to fall in love with by Poseidon as punishment for a bad deal done unto him by Paciphae's husband, King Minos (picture)."

It's a giant stretch in hindsight but at the same time, I would not be surprised if someone from Game Freak was fascinated with Greek and Roman mythology enough to give Tauros a move referencing it. Or it could be a nod to wildebeast, which have been shown to migrate across inland bodies of water in herds.

I also think that Surf itself is learned by so many of the monster kaiju Pokemon because it also represents tsunamis. Most of the Pokemon capable of learning Surf can also learn Earthquake, and tsunamis are caused by seismic activity underwater.

And call me spiteful... but I still think it was BS that in Gen III, the Lotad line had access to Razor LEAF while the Seedot line got... Take Down? They fixed this in Gen IV, but that still burns. And speaking of Lotad, if you put one on your team in the early game of R/S you had an awful time. Lotad's only attacking moves were Absorb and Astonish, which were laughably weak coming off of Lotad's already awful stats. Then it evolves into Lombre and has to rely on Nature Power, most of which become physical moves and Lombre's attack is poor, and it doesn't get Hydro Pump until level 49 (thankfully you get Surf much earlier than that). Lotad does learn Mega Drain though... at level 43. Good Lord. Gen III movepools were so evil and anemic. It's also evil that Dustox and Politoed didn't get 10 point stat buffs in Gen VI, but that's another kind of discussion.

Water Gun on Phanpy in Gen II was a harmless reference to the playfulness of elephants imo. Useless yes, but it was cute. They shouldn't have removed it.

It is also very interesting to talk about how Pokemon use different moves in different ways. Poison Jab for example, is an arm attack for Tentacool and a horn attack for Nidorino. Slam is a tail move for Raichu but a.. uh... hmmm... a NECK move for Tropius? That's actually pretty neat. And under special circumstances, Bite attacks can be horn attacks, which is why Mamoswine learns Ice Fang. Tusks act like horns but are actually teeth, which makes sense.

Destiny Bond is funny one to think about in that respect as well. So when a ghost uses it, it's dragging you to the Shadow Realm with it. When Cacturne or Qwilfish get it, it's because, well, spiky things stick to you. One explanation is eerie and mystical and the other is very plain and simple. Oh and the both get Revenge for the same reason (spikes). Apparently if you hit something with spikes, it hurts you more than the thing you're hitting.

Lastly I will pose a question: Aron and its evolutionary line have been said to eat iron. You've got to have some pretty good dental work to eat iron. Aggron in particular has been shown to have sharp teeth. It also has horns. Now, Aggron is able to learn Smart Strike which is a horn attack, but it doesn't get Bite or Crunch? What gives? And why did they randomly give Crunch back to Flygon?
 
"It is mentioned that Tauros' name might reference the Tauros constellation most of us might be familiar with, but there are Greek legends about bulls swimming through large bodies of water and yes, they all involve the bulls carrying a being (often female). One in particular tells the tale of how the thunder god Zeus falls in love with a woman named Europa, but his status as a god deters him from approaching her. So, he turns himself into a [very handsome] bull and when Europa sees him, she is smitten instantly. She is coaxed into climbing onto the bull's back and he carries her to Crete (crossing the ocean to do so). Here is an interpretation of the myth in the form of a painting (there are several others). The myth also explains why Tauros is capable of learning the move Surf, and there exist other myths featuring women infatuated with bulls riding them across the ocean, such as Paciphae riding a bull she was cursed to fall in love with by Poseidon as punishment for a bad deal done unto him by Paciphae's husband, King Minos (picture)."
I suppose that just replaces one question with another. Why are there so many women in Greek mythology infatuated with bulls? Assuming the pun still made sense back then, was it just a joke about being horny?
 
I suppose that just replaces one question with another. Why are there so many women in Greek mythology infatuated with bulls? Assuming the pun still made sense back then, was it just a joke about being horny?
Actually, yes to that last part lol although I don't think it was meant as a joke. And to answer the overlying question: from what I remember from my mythology class, mortal women in that era were often infatuated with bulls because the bull was seen by the culture as the ultimate symbol of strength and fertility, which appealed a lot to them.

That being said, I'm glad they made Miltank. Tauros would've been stealing yo' girl if it weren't for her.
 
I have a curiosity maybe you guys can solve.

Why does the move Curse have a different effect used from non-ghost type?

I can see that ghost types, being malevolent / undeads / whatever throw a curse on you which damages you over time, that makes perfect sense, but why does it have that specific effect (lowers speed, boosts attack and defense) on non ghost types?

I'd like to picture it because the pokemon is insulting you (aka "cursing") but since effects are usually based on the japanese name, I'm confident that's not the case.
 

Merritt

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Laughs in Lugia.
0 SpA Mew Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Giratina: 112-132 (25.3 - 29.9%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
0 SpA Mew Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Lugia: 90-106 (25.4 - 30%) -- guaranteed 4HKO

Giratina is naturally a little bit bulkier than Lugia on the thrice damned special side. Forget about the physical side even.

0 Atk Mew Ice Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Giratina: 92-110 (20.8 - 24.9%) -- guaranteed 5HKO
0 Atk Mew Ice Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Lugia: 88-104 (24.9 - 29.4%) -- 100% chance to 4HKO

This doesn't even start on the amazingly better defensive typing Giratina's got. They share the same number of weaknesses at 5, though one of those is the added later Fairy for Giratina, but Lugia's 3 resistances and single immunity pales in comparison to Giratina's 6 resistances and 2 immunities. Add in Lugia's Stealth Rock weakness to cut its bulk during Giratina's introductory generation and is it really such a surprise that they decided not to make Giratina Lugia 2: Electric-Resistance Boogaloo?
 
So I know the flying Doduo/Dodrio joke must've been burned to the ground already, but there's a slightly more disturbing one hiding under that: Dodrio learns Steel Wing. I learned that on a Fire Red Nuzlocke and ever since the thought that it may use its "necks" as wings has haunted me

Also Beedrill gets Hyper Beam. I don't know about the rest of you but Beedrill out of all Pokemon doesn't come across as one who would be able to fire such a powerful beam that it needs to rest the next turn

Also also why do Phanpy and Donphan learn Seed Bomb and Ice Shard again?
 

Pikachu315111

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So I know the flying Doduo/Dodrio joke must've been burned to the ground already, but there's a slightly more disturbing one hiding under that: Dodrio learns Steel Wing. I learned that on a Fire Red Nuzlocke and ever since the thought that it may use its "necks" as wings has haunted me
Don't forget Primeape can learn Iron Tail without having a tail. ;)

Also Beedrill gets Hyper Beam. I don't know about the rest of you but Beedrill out of all Pokemon doesn't come across as one who would be able to fire such a powerful beam that it needs to rest the next turn
Eh, no stranger then any other Pokemon. Like personally, if I were to choose a Pokemon which Hyper Beam would feel odd a Pokemon using visually, I'd go with Tangela, Bellossom, Trapinch, Cherrim, Amaura, Klefki, Ribombee, Minior, Cramorant, & Pincurchin. While for most Pokemon I can imagine ways for them to gather energy for a big blast (like for Beedrill I can imagine it bringing it's needle & stinger close together and gathering energy between them in a ball for launching a powerful beam), for the ones I mentioned the though for some reason seems off.
 
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So I know the flying Doduo/Dodrio joke must've been burned to the ground already, but there's a slightly more disturbing one hiding under that: Dodrio learns Steel Wing. I learned that on a Fire Red Nuzlocke and ever since the thought that it may use its "necks" as wings has haunted me
For this I quote from Pokémon Yellow:
Its short wings make flying difficult. Instead, this Pokémon runs at high speed on developed legs.
And flying is quoted from Red/Blue
A bird that makes up for its poor flying with its fast foot speed. Leaves giant footprints.
(still has some kind of flying)

What either of these actually look like is a mystery.
 
For this I quote from Pokémon Yellow:
Its short wings make flying difficult. Instead, this Pokémon runs at high speed on developed legs
You know I always thought that when Doduo or Dodrio use Fly outside of battle they just run so fast it feels like they're flying

Another oddity I just found: Why can't Alakazam learn Thunderbolt? It gets Shock Wave and Charge Beam, and Gengar gets Thunderbolt
 
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So I know the flying Doduo/Dodrio joke must've been burned to the ground already, but there's a slightly more disturbing one hiding under that: Dodrio learns Steel Wing. I learned that on a Fire Red Nuzlocke and ever since the thought that it may use its "necks" as wings has haunted me
Just because they are not fliers does not mean they lack "wings". They are birds after all.
Essentially, Doduo/Dodrio are based on Ostriches and Dodos , two birds that are not able to fly, despite both actually having wings.

Albeith never shown in the game or the anime, it is possible that they do have dodo-like small wings and just keep them sticking to their body.
 

Pikachu315111

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Just because they are not fliers does not mean they lack "wings". They are birds after all.
Essentially, Doduo/Dodrio are based on Ostriches and Dodos , two birds that are not able to fly, despite both actually having wings.
There's also the extinct Moa which actually didn't have wing bones and the Kiwi and/or Cassowary who is probably like Doduo family where their wings are so small you can't see them under its feathers.
 
This is an oddity regarding abilities rather than movepools, but I still felt this was the most relevant place to post this.

Physical attacks are for some reason vastly favored in terms of modifiers. Here is a list of abilities whose effects explicitly involve physical attacks and not special attacks:
Anger Point
Big Pecks
Dauntless Shield
Defiant
Fur Coat
Gorilla Tactics
Grass Pelt
Guts
Huge Power
Hustle
Hyper Cutter
Ice Face
Intimidate
Intrepid Sword
Justified
Marvel Scale
Moxie
Pure Power
Sap Sipper
Slow Start
Stamina
Toxic Boost
Water Compaction
Weak Armor
24 in total.

Now here's a list of abilities whose effects explicitly involve special attacks and not physical attacks:
Battery
Berserk
Competitive
Flare Boost
Ice Scales
Lightning Rod
Minus
Plus
Solar Power
Soul-Heart
Storm Drain
11 in total.

That's not even getting into the abilities affecting secondary move characteristics that are overwhelmingly or entirely one move category. On the physical side, there is Strong Jaw, Iron Fist, Rock Head, Reckless, Dazzling, Queenly Majesty, and 18 abilities that involve contact. On the special side, there is Mega Launcher, Soundproof, Punk Rock, Liquid Voice, and maybe Bulletproof, though special's lead in that department is hardly overwhelming.
 
This is an oddity regarding abilities rather than movepools, but I still felt this was the most relevant place to post this.

Physical attacks are for some reason vastly favored in terms of modifiers. Here is a list of abilities whose effects explicitly involve physical attacks and not special attacks:
Anger Point
Big Pecks
Dauntless Shield
Defiant
Fur Coat
Gorilla Tactics
Grass Pelt
Guts
Huge Power
Hustle
Hyper Cutter
Ice Face
Intimidate
Intrepid Sword
Justified
Marvel Scale
Moxie
Pure Power
Sap Sipper
Slow Start
Stamina
Toxic Boost
Water Compaction
Weak Armor
24 in total.

Now here's a list of abilities whose effects explicitly involve special attacks and not physical attacks:
Battery
Berserk
Competitive
Flare Boost
Ice Scales
Lightning Rod
Minus
Plus
Solar Power
Soul-Heart
Storm Drain
11 in total.

That's not even getting into the abilities affecting secondary move characteristics that are overwhelmingly or entirely one move category. On the physical side, there is Strong Jaw, Iron Fist, Rock Head, Reckless, Dazzling, Queenly Majesty, and 18 abilities that involve contact. On the special side, there is Mega Launcher, Soundproof, Punk Rock, Liquid Voice, and maybe Bulletproof, though special's lead in that department is hardly overwhelming.
I think this is part of a bigger bias that goes all the way back to the start of the series.

Choice Band was a thing in Gen 3, but Choice Specs didn't exist until Gen 4. Swords Dance was introduced in Gen 1, but we had to wait until Gen 4 to get an equivalent in the form of Nasty Plot (Tail Glow doesn't count, and Amnesia was nerfed in Gen 2 with nothing to replace it) which only became a teachable move in the most recent games while Swords Dance has been a TM and tutor move in every generation except the second. Swagger was introduced in Gen 2 but Flatter wasn't introduced until Gen 3. Special Defense was its own stat in Gen 2, but Zinc didn't exist until Gen 3. There's no Special equivalent to moves like Belly Drum or Abilities like Anger Point, Moxie, or Guts. Defiant was introduced in Gen 5, but
it took another generation for Competitive to be introduced (and even then has far worse distribution than Defiant does - 5 evolution lines get Competitive, while 12 get Defiant).

Things are more or less evening out now, but because of the historical bias in favour of physical moves and abilities, the scale is still noticeably tilted.
 
There's not necessarily just a bias towards helping physical moves - it's more that they're easier to modify in both directions. Physical attackers can be crippled with burns and Intimidate, while no equivalent to either of these exists for special attacks (on top of this from Generations IV through VII, special attackers also automatically had access to a much wider range of coverage moves through Hidden Power). To counteract this, special moves have marginally lower base power, and ways to boost physical moves are more widespread than their counterparts (in addition to all of these Abilities, it's also pretty noticeable with the distribution of Swords Dance vs Nasty Plot and the consistency of Power-Up Punch vs Charge Beam).
The two damage categories are also relatively consistent in having different drawbacks for high-powered moves - high-power physical moves are significantly more likely to cause recoil (the only special move with recoil is a signature move edit: this was a mistake - the only special move with standard recoil, based on the damage dealt, is a signature move, while the later recoil-inducing special moves Mind Blown and Steel Beam use a unique mechanic... one that's still "consistent" and "less risky" in a sense), while a handful of them lower defenses or Speed (and for reference, the only physical move to lower either of the user's offenses also lowers its Defense). Meanwhile, high-power special moves are more likely to lower the user's Special Attack than their defenses (for reference, the only special move to lower either of the user's defenses is a signature move), which is much less volatile a drawback and doesn't put the user at immediate risk if it fails to KO even though it succeeds in making the move less spammable and stopping a clean sweep. There are some other patterns like this - some of the most notable low-accuracy special moves can be guaranteed to hit under certain conditions, while low-accuracy physical moves are forced to deal with that drawback.
In general, special attackers are the "consistent" ones, while physical attackers are the ones that can theoretically boost/snowball/get out of hand but are less reliable and easier to counter. I think it's a more interesting dynamic than just making them functionally identical outside of attacking stats - like a way more moderate version of the un-split Special stat from Gen I as a way to differentiate the two mechanically - but it's still subtle enough to give leeway in edge cases, to make individual Pokémon stand out more by "playing against damage category" or to fulfill certain niches for balance's sake.
 
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There's not necessarily just a bias towards helping physical moves - it's more that they're easier to modify in both directions. Physical attackers can be crippled with burns and Intimidate, while no equivalent to either of these exists for special attacks (on top of this from Generations IV through VII, special attackers also automatically had access to a much wider range of coverage moves through Hidden Power). To counteract this, special moves have marginally lower base power, and ways to boost physical moves are more widespread than their counterparts (in addition to all of these Abilities, it's also pretty noticeable with the distribution of Swords Dance vs Nasty Plot and the consistency of Power-Up Punch vs Charge Beam).
The two damage categories are also relatively consistent in having different drawbacks for high-powered moves - high-power physical moves are significantly more likely to cause recoil (the only special move with recoil is a signature move edit: this was a mistake - the only special move with standard recoil, based on the damage dealt, is a signature move, while the later recoil-inducing special moves Mind Blown and Steel Beam use a unique mechanic... one that's still "consistent" and "less risky" in a sense), while a handful of them lower defenses or Speed (and for reference, the only physical move to lower either of the user's offenses also lowers its Defense). Meanwhile, high-power special moves are more likely to lower the user's Special Attack than their defenses (for reference, the only special move to lower either of the user's defenses is a signature move), which is much less volatile a drawback and doesn't put the user at immediate risk if it fails to KO even though it succeeds in making the move less spammable and stopping a clean sweep. There are some other patterns like this - some of the most notable low-accuracy special moves can be guaranteed to hit under certain conditions, while low-accuracy physical moves are forced to deal with that drawback.
In general, special attackers are the "consistent" ones, while physical attackers are the ones that can theoretically boost/snowball/get out of hand but are less reliable and easier to counter. I think it's a more interesting dynamic than just making them functionally identical outside of attacking stats - like a way more moderate version of the un-split Special stat from Gen I as a way to differentiate the two mechanically - but it's still subtle enough to give leeway in edge cases, to make individual Pokémon stand out more by "playing against damage category" or to fulfill certain niches for balance's sake.
That's a fair point. You could argue either way re ranges of coverage moves - yes Hidden Power is a thing, but most Fire, Ice, and Electric Pokemon tended pre-Gen 4 to have incredibly shallow movesets, while predominately physical Pokemon tend to get more options on average because almost everything gets Normal- and Fighting-type moves, and all sorts of Pokemon get Earthquake who really shouldn't (looking at you, Arbok). Aerial Ace is another example; numerous Pokemon in Gen 3 have access to it despite it being a Flying-move (why on earth does Slaking get it? Or Nidoqueen? Or Marowak?) and so is Shadow Ball (again, why Slaking? Or Yanma? Why Wigglytuff?)

Meanwhile most Special moves tend to be much more... well, specialised: most Water-types don't arbitrarily get Fire or Electric moves, for instance, whereas there's a lot more overlap between the historically physical Ground, Rock, Fighting, Normal, Bug, Flying, Ghost, and Steel types. Obviously, there are a lot of Pokemon with great special coverage, but the majority of specially-based Pokemon tend or tended to be one-trick ponies.

I like your point about the different dynamic of physical vs special but I think it's become less clear as time's gone on and they introduce more moves. I wonder to what extent it's intentional - the nerfing of special moves in Gen 6 suggests there was some thinking of this sort involved.

By the way there is an actual equivalent of Guts for special: flare boost, HA of drifloon family
Oops, forgot that one. In my defence it being so poorly distributed means it hardly counts - it's basically the Drifloon family's signature ability (like Berserk for Drampa). Whereas Guts, Moxie, Anger Point, Defiant, and so on are more spread around and not tied to one Pokemon line.
 

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