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Lower Tiers ADV LC
- Thread starter grape tylenol
- Start date
Very nice post from Kaboom about ADVPL and how each ADV LC player measures up against the rest of the pool. My ranking is very similar, although I think Kingdras are in a much worse spot with the loss of Arcanine1929 and would rank them last in the pool for sure. I also think I would rank the Scythe Lords a bit lower as Quinn is on his own and will likely have difficulty finding support given that most players have been scooped up by other teams. Since Kaboom didn't rank them, my personal opinion is that the Aquacorde Anglerfish are in an excellent position with LC veteran HSOWA and prominent ADV LC community member Kaboom working together, and I would rank them as tied with the Claydolls if not above them. Rankings aside, I would say I'm the most interested in seeing ElectricityCat play as he has remained a bit of an enigma in the ADV LC community. I'm also very interested in seeing how the combination of two active members of the ADV LC community, Cawil Maxamad and Zcarlett, and top current generation LC player but newcomer to ADV LC Hacker works out!
Oh and also: ADV LC Cup signups are now open and will be closing April 14th at 10:00PM GMT-4.
Oh and also: ADV LC Cup signups are now open and will be closing April 14th at 10:00PM GMT-4.
Thunder Wave tiering action coming to a tier near you
May 2024 Tiering Survey
Thanks to the ADV LC Open: Porygon's Bizarre Adventure tournament (congratulations Raichy on your win!), as well as the ongoing LPL, ADVPL, and ADV LC Cup tournaments, the tier has seen quite a bit of play! I figure now is the perfect time to gauge the community's opinion on the metagame so that we can explore potential tiering action over the summer. If you are interested in sharing your thoughts on the ADV LC metagame, you can fill out the survey here! The survey will close May 5th at 10:00PM GMT-4 so be sure to fill it out before then if you want your voice to be heard.
Thanks to the ADV LC Open: Porygon's Bizarre Adventure tournament (congratulations Raichy on your win!), as well as the ongoing LPL, ADVPL, and ADV LC Cup tournaments, the tier has seen quite a bit of play! I figure now is the perfect time to gauge the community's opinion on the metagame so that we can explore potential tiering action over the summer. If you are interested in sharing your thoughts on the ADV LC metagame, you can fill out the survey here! The survey will close May 5th at 10:00PM GMT-4 so be sure to fill it out before then if you want your voice to be heard.
May 2024 Viability Rankings Update
Thanks to Cawil Maxamad, HSOWA, and Shing as well as the ADV LC Council for helping out with these!
Major Shifts
Abra: A+ → S
Abra's 19 Speed in addition to it's monstrous base 105 Special Attack already made a huge threat, but its newfound set diversity has propelled it to S rank. Abra is most commonly seen running a Calm Mind sweeper set with Psychic and Thief (or Hidden Power Water,) but other movepool options like elemental punches, Barrier, Hidden Power Dark, and even screens have been used, making it difficult to predict, a deadly quality for any Pokemon.
Voltorb: B+ → A
Similarly to Staryu in the last viability ranking update, players have caught on that 20 Speed, Thunder Wave, and Explosion all in one package makes a great Pokemon! Voltorb's Speed, tied only by Diglett and fellow Electric-type Elekid, allows it to reliably spread paralysis as well as get off a last-ditch Explosion if things aren't going its way. While Voltorb does get Explosion, it doesn't get the same coverage options Elekid does, forcing it to rely on the weak Hidden Power Grass instead.
Lileep: B- → B+
Lileep functions well as an annoying defensive Pokemon thanks to its Rock / Grass typing as well as Recover, a move otherwise not seen in LC. If a team isn't prepared for it, it can be quite difficult to take out as the above user discovered, but it struggles to make progress into the opposing team due to a weak offensive movepool.
Magnemite: B- → B+
Magnemite is a surprisingly deadly Pokemon, especially behind a Substitute. Its respectable base 95 Special Attack combined with STAB Thunderbolt and Hidden Power Grass allows it to take out powerful foes including Wailmer and Diglett. Magnemite's Electric / Steel typing also allows it to come in on Doduo and force it out. Magnemite, of course, still suffers greatly in that it is trapped and removed by Diglett (as long as Magnemite isn't behind a Subsitute) as well as Trapinch.
Pineco: B → A-
Spikes have become very popular so it's no surprise to see Pineco, the best Spikes setter, rise significantly in viability. It's interesting to see that Pineco came out on top over Cacnea, it seems players prefer the always reliable Explosion and option to Rapid Spin over the offensive power that Cacnea has.
Teddiursa: Unranked → C
Teddiursa, similar to Snorunt and Ralts, has seen use recently as it is the pet mon of a strong player (in this case not Shing but Quinn). It's not without its merits though: Teddiursa has a great Attack stat in addition to Swords Dance and has proven itself to be an asset in tournament games. Time will tell if Teddiursa can carve itself a niche as a powerful physical attacker or if it will fall back off the viability rankings.
Minor Shifts
Snubbull: A- → A
Trapinch: A → A-
Houndour: B+ → A-
Cacnea: B → B+
Cubone: B → B+
Horsea: B+ → B
Duskull: B+ → B
Meowth: C → Unranked
May 2024 Metagame Survey Results
The metagame survey has now closed! Thank you to everyone who took the time to fill it out. Let's take a look at what you thought about the current metagame:
Looking at the survey results, we can see that most players enjoy the metagame which I am really happy to see! We can also see that Thunder Wave is a very controversial subject (more on that below) while Abra and Diglett are generally agreed upon to be balanced. Regarding the summer "for fun" tournament, an ADV LC tournament featuring Omanyte was by far the most popular choice, so we will be running that tournament sometime late this summer (think late July or August).
On Thunder Wave
Here is the announcement you have all been waiting for!
The ADV LC council has decided to run a suspect test on Thunder Wave. Players who have achieved at least one of the following will be qualified to vote in the suspect test:
Thanks to Cawil Maxamad, HSOWA, and Shing as well as the ADV LC Council for helping out with these!
Major Shifts
Abra: A+ → SAbra's 19 Speed in addition to it's monstrous base 105 Special Attack already made a huge threat, but its newfound set diversity has propelled it to S rank. Abra is most commonly seen running a Calm Mind sweeper set with Psychic and Thief (or Hidden Power Water,) but other movepool options like elemental punches, Barrier, Hidden Power Dark, and even screens have been used, making it difficult to predict, a deadly quality for any Pokemon.
Voltorb: B+ → ASimilarly to Staryu in the last viability ranking update, players have caught on that 20 Speed, Thunder Wave, and Explosion all in one package makes a great Pokemon! Voltorb's Speed, tied only by Diglett and fellow Electric-type Elekid, allows it to reliably spread paralysis as well as get off a last-ditch Explosion if things aren't going its way. While Voltorb does get Explosion, it doesn't get the same coverage options Elekid does, forcing it to rely on the weak Hidden Power Grass instead.
Lileep: B- → B+Lileep functions well as an annoying defensive Pokemon thanks to its Rock / Grass typing as well as Recover, a move otherwise not seen in LC. If a team isn't prepared for it, it can be quite difficult to take out as the above user discovered, but it struggles to make progress into the opposing team due to a weak offensive movepool.
Magnemite: B- → B+Magnemite is a surprisingly deadly Pokemon, especially behind a Substitute. Its respectable base 95 Special Attack combined with STAB Thunderbolt and Hidden Power Grass allows it to take out powerful foes including Wailmer and Diglett. Magnemite's Electric / Steel typing also allows it to come in on Doduo and force it out. Magnemite, of course, still suffers greatly in that it is trapped and removed by Diglett (as long as Magnemite isn't behind a Subsitute) as well as Trapinch.
Pineco: B → A-Spikes have become very popular so it's no surprise to see Pineco, the best Spikes setter, rise significantly in viability. It's interesting to see that Pineco came out on top over Cacnea, it seems players prefer the always reliable Explosion and option to Rapid Spin over the offensive power that Cacnea has.
Teddiursa: Unranked → CTeddiursa, similar to Snorunt and Ralts, has seen use recently as it is the pet mon of a strong player (in this case not Shing but Quinn). It's not without its merits though: Teddiursa has a great Attack stat in addition to Swords Dance and has proven itself to be an asset in tournament games. Time will tell if Teddiursa can carve itself a niche as a powerful physical attacker or if it will fall back off the viability rankings.
Minor Shifts
Snubbull: A- → A Trapinch: A → A- Houndour: B+ → A- Cacnea: B → B+ Cubone: B → B+ Horsea: B+ → B Duskull: B+ → B Meowth: C → UnrankedMay 2024 Metagame Survey Results
The metagame survey has now closed! Thank you to everyone who took the time to fill it out. Let's take a look at what you thought about the current metagame:
Looking at the survey results, we can see that most players enjoy the metagame which I am really happy to see! We can also see that Thunder Wave is a very controversial subject (more on that below) while Abra and Diglett are generally agreed upon to be balanced. Regarding the summer "for fun" tournament, an ADV LC tournament featuring Omanyte was by far the most popular choice, so we will be running that tournament sometime late this summer (think late July or August).
On Thunder Wave
Here is the announcement you have all been waiting for!
The ADV LC council has decided to run a suspect test on Thunder Wave. Players who have achieved at least one of the following will be qualified to vote in the suspect test:
- 2 wins and at least 3 ADV LC games played in ADVPL IV
- Placed top 4 of ADV LC Open: Porygon's Bizarre Adventure
- Placed first in ADV LC Cup
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So I just won ADV Cup I, and since I clearly have no idea what I'm talking about, I figured I would share a pretty significant opinion I have had of this metagame since Todd and never really got convinced of the opposite.
Many of you probably already know I have been vocal I very much dislike Porygon's presence in this metagame. Specifically, I actually was torn between Porygon being at fault or Sitrus Berry, and ultimately I ended up deciding on the latter. I do think Sitrus Berry is detrimental to this tier, and (even though I know I'm in the minority here) I would love it if we did something about it.
I think everyone, both mainers and tour players, is currently on the opinion that Thunder Wave Sub spam is too much for this tier to handle, with very low bulk across the board and close to no speed control. Many games come down to fishing for a succesful Substitute as the opposing Pokémon gets fully paralyzed which, compared to most other LC generations, gives you an advantage so big most of the time it just wins the game on the spot. I do agree with it, I'm personally not the most vocal person about it but I wouldn't mind Thunder Wave going if that meant the tier becomes less luck reliant. However, while I do believe that strategy should get the boot, I also think there is another element to it, which is broken on its own and helps at creating this luck-reliant environment: Sitrus Berry.
All of this to get back to the paralysis spam point. Yes, Sitrus Berry worsenes the metagame in all of those ways in my opinion, but it also undeniably helps the Substitute Thunder Wave strategy. It's pretty simple, the more HP you gain, the more Substitutes you can create, and the more chances for a full paralysis to happen. Yes, Oran Berry would do it too, but it absolutely wouldn't do it as consistently, since it won't recover every single mon back up to full, and on some Pokémon it will only recover as high as a 33%. I think this strategy becomes significantly worse if we take Sitrus out of the picture, and even if it doesn't honestly I want it gone anyway.
Many of you probably already know I have been vocal I very much dislike Porygon's presence in this metagame. Specifically, I actually was torn between Porygon being at fault or Sitrus Berry, and ultimately I ended up deciding on the latter. I do think Sitrus Berry is detrimental to this tier, and (even though I know I'm in the minority here) I would love it if we did something about it.
I think everyone, both mainers and tour players, is currently on the opinion that Thunder Wave Sub spam is too much for this tier to handle, with very low bulk across the board and close to no speed control. Many games come down to fishing for a succesful Substitute as the opposing Pokémon gets fully paralyzed which, compared to most other LC generations, gives you an advantage so big most of the time it just wins the game on the spot. I do agree with it, I'm personally not the most vocal person about it but I wouldn't mind Thunder Wave going if that meant the tier becomes less luck reliant. However, while I do believe that strategy should get the boot, I also think there is another element to it, which is broken on its own and helps at creating this luck-reliant environment: Sitrus Berry.
My problem with this item is not really paralysis spam itself, but rather how it warps the metagame and how we need to play it. Sitrus gives every single Pokémon two lives. This creates situations where 2HKOing things is impossible, or only available with very specific maneuvers like hitting a neutral Hidden Power into a powerful STAB move. That's not really a terrible thing if it's present only in a handful of Pokémon, but I think it becomes quite toxic quickly when you can't 2HKO anything unless you predict every single turn right. Yes, I want my Pokémon games to be skillful, but I also think we should reward safe clicks as long as they're not way too safe. 2HKOing Pokémon is the bread and butter of breaking in competitive, and not being able to do it consistently I think is not something we should want. (i hate it when my voltorb gets walled by a wailmer)
This fact becomes especially infuriating when we add bulk and recovery moves to the mix. It's already bad that Diglett cannot 2HKO Abra at all with a neutral STAB Earthquake, but Pokémon with good bulk and recovery get insane. There's a reason Porygon is the single best Pokémon in the tier. It is almost literally unkillable, helped by the fact that if you can't outright Porygon, even if it eats its Sitrus once, it is able to get it back again, either by using Recycle or Thief (which many other Pokémon like Snubbull or Abra use as effectively), making it even more resiliant. The most reliable strategy commonly used to take it out isn't to OHKO or 2HKO it, because you can't, but rather paralyze it and set up on it, since it does become an immortal sitting duck. I think that's messed up. Other bulky Pokémon like Snubbull or Wailmer also benefit a lot of this, since its incredible stats and abilities allow them to take any one hit and hit back like nothing, and even Thief opposing Sitrus back for more turns of damage.
Another factor I think doesn't help its case is Spike's case. This move is supposed to be a good offensive tool to punish switches and improve your team's damage output. Instead, in this Sitrus infested metagame, (hot take) they just become a liability. In my experience, the only thing Spikes do for you is activate opposing Sitrus early, making it even more impossible to 2HKO anything, even with good plays. Here are two examples of this, one from just today's ADV Cup Finals and one from the most recent ADV PL. Yes, I did luck HSOWA a lot but I absolutely would have lost regardless had the Spikes not been set up.
This fact becomes especially infuriating when we add bulk and recovery moves to the mix. It's already bad that Diglett cannot 2HKO Abra at all with a neutral STAB Earthquake, but Pokémon with good bulk and recovery get insane. There's a reason Porygon is the single best Pokémon in the tier. It is almost literally unkillable, helped by the fact that if you can't outright Porygon, even if it eats its Sitrus once, it is able to get it back again, either by using Recycle or Thief (which many other Pokémon like Snubbull or Abra use as effectively), making it even more resiliant. The most reliable strategy commonly used to take it out isn't to OHKO or 2HKO it, because you can't, but rather paralyze it and set up on it, since it does become an immortal sitting duck. I think that's messed up. Other bulky Pokémon like Snubbull or Wailmer also benefit a lot of this, since its incredible stats and abilities allow them to take any one hit and hit back like nothing, and even Thief opposing Sitrus back for more turns of damage.
Another factor I think doesn't help its case is Spike's case. This move is supposed to be a good offensive tool to punish switches and improve your team's damage output. Instead, in this Sitrus infested metagame, (hot take) they just become a liability. In my experience, the only thing Spikes do for you is activate opposing Sitrus early, making it even more impossible to 2HKO anything, even with good plays. Here are two examples of this, one from just today's ADV Cup Finals and one from the most recent ADV PL. Yes, I did luck HSOWA a lot but I absolutely would have lost regardless had the Spikes not been set up.
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I've took a break from playing games since the porygon money tournament, which I made it to top 8 or 16 iirc, and I think you diagnosed the problems mostly perfectly. However, I disagree with the solution, because I think that sitrus is our only mostly consistent defensive counterplay to just clicking strong attacks from pokes such as CB doduo and hydro staryu. I do agree that all of sub, twave, and sitrus make the tier too luck reliant and centralized on the twave sub game and so shouldn't coexist, but I disagree that Porygon would be nearly unkillable without T-wave making it a liability. T-wave is certainly the best way in general to do that right now, but during the money tournament I instead would hit it and try to keep it above Sitrus Berry activation but in range of more powerful attacks from strong attacks from the aforementioned CB doduo and Hydro Pump water types, as well as most setup sweepers and other strong attackers. I would also try to force a trade on their Porygon by just staying in with my attacker after they switched in and utilizing substitute + Thief to deny Thiefs and Recycles or just attacking so it couldn't heal to deal with other threats. I consider dealing with and correctly using Porygon, outside of T-wave, one of the most skillful and interesting parts of ADV LC building and playing, and I think banning Sitrus Berry would take much of that away. I instead think that banning Thunder Wave is the correct path to improving ADV LC, because it is both broken in being overpowered and taking control out of the players hands and into the "hope I don't full para vs an unrevealed sweeper" zone.
TLDR, I don't believe Porygon would be broken in a metagame with Sitrus Berry and without t-wave because it is still only reliable to switch in once in spite of its versatility. Thunder Wave needs banned because it interacts with Substitute and Sitrus Berry way too well. Sitrus Berry holds the tier together vs strong attackers.
TLDR, I don't believe Porygon would be broken in a metagame with Sitrus Berry and without t-wave because it is still only reliable to switch in once in spite of its versatility. Thunder Wave needs banned because it interacts with Substitute and Sitrus Berry way too well. Sitrus Berry holds the tier together vs strong attackers.
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