D2TheW
Amadán
Right so I figured I'd chime in on this discussion with my own perspective.
Personally, I favour the absolute ranking system utilizing the current tiers that we have right now. Unlike other tiers, a relative tiering system doesn't make sense for 2v2 as whether or not one mon is "better" than another (ie deserving to be ranked higher) is often pretty nebulous in this meta.
For example Kingdra is an absolute nuclear threat under rain. When under rain and especially with helping hand support from Politoed, it can dish out absolutely absurd damage with an almost unmatched speed tier. However this comes with the obvious caveat that kingdra must be in rain to accomplish this, being practically useless outside of rain teams bar some gimmick sniper sets or fringe use as an anti rain mon. Kingdra essentially requires using two slots on your team to make it worth bringing.
As a comparison we have Cinderace, another powerful offensive threat. With broke af ability libero, a bevy of good coverage and good attack and speed, Cinderace is able to threaten a wide array of targets and fit on many teams.
I don't think it's controversial however, to say that, in terms of sheer offensive power, Kingdra is a bigger threat than Cinderace. However the former only works on one specific team style while the other is far more varied in this regard.
So, in a relative tiering system, such as the one used by 1v1 to take an example already mentioned in the thread, which one would be ranked higher? I don't think there's a clear answer to this question. In 6v6 tiers, weather abusers such as Kingdra usually get very middling ranks, but weather teams in most 6v6 tiers are usually inconsistent, viewed more as gimmicks that fish for mus. In 2v2 however, weather teams (and other similar teamstyles like terrain spam) are legitimate threats that should be taken into account when building, especially in the current meta. The current system, using absolute tiers, fits this in easily with a dedicated tier for mons like Kingdra that only work on rain, sun, psyterrain etc. This is why I think we should stick with absolute tiers and frankly, I have yet to see any strong arguments to change our tiering system other than people voicing personal preference for a system they're more familiar with.
That being said, the lower tiers are in a bit of a state RN and I haven't hit the max word count just yet so I'm going to run through the lower tiers and make nominations for each of them.
T3-
Aegislash - 4 I covered this one in my last post, go read that. TL;DR pretty poor meta mus but unique typing and ability means it still has a place in the meta.
Arcanine - 4 man I'm really conflicted about this one. Purely in a vacuum, Arc is more than deserving of t3 but Incin is a hell of a thing to be outclassed by. There's definitely times where I wish Incin wasn't fighting weak and reliable recovery is a hell of a boon but tbh the number of teams I'd use this on over the cat is pretty low.
Azumarill - 3 Competition from prim as a water fairy but it's a strong af physical attacker with good mus against all of the intimidate users with nice bulk to back it up especially with vest.
Blastoise - 3 great support in fake out + follow me, good bulk, nice defensive typing and the ability to run a shell smash set to boot. Good mon, Indeedees ability to redirect while blocking fake out entirely is kinda just better but definitely usable.
Clefairy - 3 clef ho is in baby. I could definitely live with this being in 4 but follow me is always good and friend guard is damn useful too. As one of the few redirectors with recovery it definitely has a place in the meta and I think it fits t3 fine.
Darmanitan - 3 incredibly strong physical attacker with good coverage that struggles vs fake out and redirection. Awkward speed tier too, but properly facilitated it's hard to counter.
Darmanitan-Galar - 3 ^ literally the exact same but even more polarised.
Ferrothorn - 4 curse ferro can just win games and it's a great stop to rain teams. Can be very difficult to break without a fire or fighting type but those are in plentiful supply.
Goodra - 3 great answer to both rain and sun, good offensive special tank, just a solid mon.
Hawlucha - 2.5 Lucha is a hell of a threat but is basically only used on terrain teams. However it is one of the main factors in making terrain teams threatening so I think it definitely belongs in 2.5
Kommo-o - 4 Pretty similar to Goodra in a lot of ways but honestly, it's pretty outclassed by it's psuedo legendary brother. Still solid, just doesn't have the meta mus it used to.
Mantine - 4 This mon has never belonged in t3 and I don't understand how it got here. Utterly outclassed as a swift swim mon, it is at least a decent special tank with a nice typing and reliable recovery.
Passimian - 5 Very outclassed by Mienshao, only niche is a bulkier set utilizing Vest. It can at least kill Incin through chople thanks to defiant (bulk dependant) and I could definitely see this being unranked at a later date but 5 is fine for now.
Snorlax - 3 I've outlined my thoughts on this enough times, I still think it can hold its own in 2 but 3 is fine.
Volcarona - 3 potent offensive threat and good redirector letting it fulfill two roles in one. Nice mon, irritated by lots of fire type competition.
Weezing-Galar - 3 Solid defensive mon with decent offensive tools and a choice of two good abilities depending on your needs. Ngas is hella strong but only fits certain teams.
T4
Bisharp - UR talked about this mon when it was originally nommed. To be blunt, it's dogshit. Go read the other post for more detail.
Braviary - 5 This mon kinda sucks since it's never killing chople incin and it's typing is just kind of meh
Bronzong - 5 the more I think about this one the more meh it is. It is at least usable and there are legitimate reasons to put it on a team but it's resoundingly mediocre
Charizard - 5 Nuclear under sun, better abusers exist tho
Dragapult - 4 fits t4 fine, able to hit physically or specially or go support with dual screens. Nice mon.
Dusclops - 4 good TR setter with some nice tricks to support it's offensive threat further
Gastrodon - 4 decent meta mus, hard to kill and checks some nice stuff like Incin and zera. Maybe outclassed as a water but ground typing is pretty useful. Solid
Grimmsnarl - 4 see other post
Gyarados - 5 No discernable niche, generally meh, intimidate is still useful and it's mu spread is kind of interesting so 5 is fine.
Hitmontop - 5 Top is worse Scrafty is worse Incineroar. Pretty poor stats and it's also outclassed by Mienshao for good measure.
Hydreigon - 5 low-key underated but it's got no real niche and a lot of dragon and dark type competition
Indeedee - 5 Very few scenarios where I'd use this over it's sister
Milotic - 4 Insanely specially bulky, good at dissuading Incin, decently strong even without competitive boosts
Ninetales - 4 very few reasons to use this over Tork but Mish had used it to good effect so 4 is fine
Pincurchin - 4 Eterrain is incredibly strong if not properly prepped for, very good at catching oppos off guard
Raichu-Alola - 4 ^
Rhyperior - 4 Strong ass TR Mon especially since it's easy to proc weakness policy
Rotom-Heat - Like washtom this has no defined niche but a solid group if traits that make a decent mon with a lot of competition. Ranking it the same as it's brother.
Sawk - Ur Unrank this already it hurts ;w;
Scizor - 4 covered in another post
Scrafty - 4 covered in another post
Sylveon - 4 hyper voice go brrr, most steels kinda suck RN and sylv exploits that. Fire types are a pain but the most popular one isn't a resist.
T5
Accelgor - 5 Final gambit really is good, shame everything else about this mon sucks
Chandelure - 5 covered in another post
Conkeldurr - 5 covered in another post
Dracozolt - Ur Zera is better as an electric, there's a myriad of better dragons
Drapion - 5 covered in another post
Durant - Ur this Mon sucks, change my mind
Gardevoir - 5 covered in another post
Gigalith - Ur no real niche over ttar or even Hippo. Just pretty bad
Haxorus - Ur Why would I ever use this
Krookodile - 5 I still think this has some potential and I've tinkered with it but I could see it dropping to UR
Keldeo - UR I put this in 5 last time but honestly I don't think it's good enough. If it stays in 5, fine but honestly prim/watershifu outclass it
Kyurem - 5 lots of dragon competition, not bad tho, an ice type that doesn't auto lose to Incin is nice
Ludicolo - 5 I still think this mon is neat and underprepped for but ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Magnezone - 5 on the fence about this one cos it's got some nice traits but I can defo see this being unranked in the future
Malamar - Ur This mon sucks, like actually. Very few reasons to use it bar gimmicks.
Mr Mime - 5 Generally outclassed by Indeedee/Blastoise, will still put in work cos fake out + redirection is just good
Porygon-Z - 5 One time kill button, needs a lot of support
Raichu - Ur this things days are long over, pretty sure it's only here cos we forgot about it
Rotom-Mow - Ur Why would you use this?
Stoutland - Ur Covered this in another post but this mon is still absolutely awful and the fact that's on the VR makes me so sad.
Sirfetch'd - Ur lots of fighting type competition, usable but meh
Tangrowth - 5 redirector, outclassed in most cases by Amoongus but it's still decent.
Terrakion - 5 covered in another post
Toxtricity - Ur This mon is just kinda bad lol, rip Partman's sample
Those are all noms btw mubs, have fun with the sheet . In conclusion, keep the tiering system, cull the lower tiers
Personally, I favour the absolute ranking system utilizing the current tiers that we have right now. Unlike other tiers, a relative tiering system doesn't make sense for 2v2 as whether or not one mon is "better" than another (ie deserving to be ranked higher) is often pretty nebulous in this meta.
For example Kingdra is an absolute nuclear threat under rain. When under rain and especially with helping hand support from Politoed, it can dish out absolutely absurd damage with an almost unmatched speed tier. However this comes with the obvious caveat that kingdra must be in rain to accomplish this, being practically useless outside of rain teams bar some gimmick sniper sets or fringe use as an anti rain mon. Kingdra essentially requires using two slots on your team to make it worth bringing.
As a comparison we have Cinderace, another powerful offensive threat. With broke af ability libero, a bevy of good coverage and good attack and speed, Cinderace is able to threaten a wide array of targets and fit on many teams.
I don't think it's controversial however, to say that, in terms of sheer offensive power, Kingdra is a bigger threat than Cinderace. However the former only works on one specific team style while the other is far more varied in this regard.
So, in a relative tiering system, such as the one used by 1v1 to take an example already mentioned in the thread, which one would be ranked higher? I don't think there's a clear answer to this question. In 6v6 tiers, weather abusers such as Kingdra usually get very middling ranks, but weather teams in most 6v6 tiers are usually inconsistent, viewed more as gimmicks that fish for mus. In 2v2 however, weather teams (and other similar teamstyles like terrain spam) are legitimate threats that should be taken into account when building, especially in the current meta. The current system, using absolute tiers, fits this in easily with a dedicated tier for mons like Kingdra that only work on rain, sun, psyterrain etc. This is why I think we should stick with absolute tiers and frankly, I have yet to see any strong arguments to change our tiering system other than people voicing personal preference for a system they're more familiar with.
That being said, the lower tiers are in a bit of a state RN and I haven't hit the max word count just yet so I'm going to run through the lower tiers and make nominations for each of them.
T3-
Aegislash - 4 I covered this one in my last post, go read that. TL;DR pretty poor meta mus but unique typing and ability means it still has a place in the meta.
Arcanine - 4 man I'm really conflicted about this one. Purely in a vacuum, Arc is more than deserving of t3 but Incin is a hell of a thing to be outclassed by. There's definitely times where I wish Incin wasn't fighting weak and reliable recovery is a hell of a boon but tbh the number of teams I'd use this on over the cat is pretty low.
Azumarill - 3 Competition from prim as a water fairy but it's a strong af physical attacker with good mus against all of the intimidate users with nice bulk to back it up especially with vest.
Blastoise - 3 great support in fake out + follow me, good bulk, nice defensive typing and the ability to run a shell smash set to boot. Good mon, Indeedees ability to redirect while blocking fake out entirely is kinda just better but definitely usable.
Clefairy - 3 clef ho is in baby. I could definitely live with this being in 4 but follow me is always good and friend guard is damn useful too. As one of the few redirectors with recovery it definitely has a place in the meta and I think it fits t3 fine.
Darmanitan - 3 incredibly strong physical attacker with good coverage that struggles vs fake out and redirection. Awkward speed tier too, but properly facilitated it's hard to counter.
Darmanitan-Galar - 3 ^ literally the exact same but even more polarised.
Ferrothorn - 4 curse ferro can just win games and it's a great stop to rain teams. Can be very difficult to break without a fire or fighting type but those are in plentiful supply.
Goodra - 3 great answer to both rain and sun, good offensive special tank, just a solid mon.
Hawlucha - 2.5 Lucha is a hell of a threat but is basically only used on terrain teams. However it is one of the main factors in making terrain teams threatening so I think it definitely belongs in 2.5
Kommo-o - 4 Pretty similar to Goodra in a lot of ways but honestly, it's pretty outclassed by it's psuedo legendary brother. Still solid, just doesn't have the meta mus it used to.
Mantine - 4 This mon has never belonged in t3 and I don't understand how it got here. Utterly outclassed as a swift swim mon, it is at least a decent special tank with a nice typing and reliable recovery.
Passimian - 5 Very outclassed by Mienshao, only niche is a bulkier set utilizing Vest. It can at least kill Incin through chople thanks to defiant (bulk dependant) and I could definitely see this being unranked at a later date but 5 is fine for now.
Snorlax - 3 I've outlined my thoughts on this enough times, I still think it can hold its own in 2 but 3 is fine.
Volcarona - 3 potent offensive threat and good redirector letting it fulfill two roles in one. Nice mon, irritated by lots of fire type competition.
Weezing-Galar - 3 Solid defensive mon with decent offensive tools and a choice of two good abilities depending on your needs. Ngas is hella strong but only fits certain teams.
T4
Bisharp - UR talked about this mon when it was originally nommed. To be blunt, it's dogshit. Go read the other post for more detail.
Braviary - 5 This mon kinda sucks since it's never killing chople incin and it's typing is just kind of meh
Bronzong - 5 the more I think about this one the more meh it is. It is at least usable and there are legitimate reasons to put it on a team but it's resoundingly mediocre
Charizard - 5 Nuclear under sun, better abusers exist tho
Dragapult - 4 fits t4 fine, able to hit physically or specially or go support with dual screens. Nice mon.
Dusclops - 4 good TR setter with some nice tricks to support it's offensive threat further
Gastrodon - 4 decent meta mus, hard to kill and checks some nice stuff like Incin and zera. Maybe outclassed as a water but ground typing is pretty useful. Solid
Grimmsnarl - 4 see other post
Gyarados - 5 No discernable niche, generally meh, intimidate is still useful and it's mu spread is kind of interesting so 5 is fine.
Hitmontop - 5 Top is worse Scrafty is worse Incineroar. Pretty poor stats and it's also outclassed by Mienshao for good measure.
Hydreigon - 5 low-key underated but it's got no real niche and a lot of dragon and dark type competition
Indeedee - 5 Very few scenarios where I'd use this over it's sister
Milotic - 4 Insanely specially bulky, good at dissuading Incin, decently strong even without competitive boosts
Ninetales - 4 very few reasons to use this over Tork but Mish had used it to good effect so 4 is fine
Pincurchin - 4 Eterrain is incredibly strong if not properly prepped for, very good at catching oppos off guard
Raichu-Alola - 4 ^
Rhyperior - 4 Strong ass TR Mon especially since it's easy to proc weakness policy
Rotom-Heat - Like washtom this has no defined niche but a solid group if traits that make a decent mon with a lot of competition. Ranking it the same as it's brother.
Sawk - Ur Unrank this already it hurts ;w;
Scizor - 4 covered in another post
Scrafty - 4 covered in another post
Sylveon - 4 hyper voice go brrr, most steels kinda suck RN and sylv exploits that. Fire types are a pain but the most popular one isn't a resist.
T5
Accelgor - 5 Final gambit really is good, shame everything else about this mon sucks
Chandelure - 5 covered in another post
Conkeldurr - 5 covered in another post
Dracozolt - Ur Zera is better as an electric, there's a myriad of better dragons
Drapion - 5 covered in another post
Durant - Ur this Mon sucks, change my mind
Gardevoir - 5 covered in another post
Gigalith - Ur no real niche over ttar or even Hippo. Just pretty bad
Haxorus - Ur Why would I ever use this
Krookodile - 5 I still think this has some potential and I've tinkered with it but I could see it dropping to UR
Keldeo - UR I put this in 5 last time but honestly I don't think it's good enough. If it stays in 5, fine but honestly prim/watershifu outclass it
Kyurem - 5 lots of dragon competition, not bad tho, an ice type that doesn't auto lose to Incin is nice
Ludicolo - 5 I still think this mon is neat and underprepped for but ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Magnezone - 5 on the fence about this one cos it's got some nice traits but I can defo see this being unranked in the future
Malamar - Ur This mon sucks, like actually. Very few reasons to use it bar gimmicks.
Mr Mime - 5 Generally outclassed by Indeedee/Blastoise, will still put in work cos fake out + redirection is just good
Porygon-Z - 5 One time kill button, needs a lot of support
Raichu - Ur this things days are long over, pretty sure it's only here cos we forgot about it
Rotom-Mow - Ur Why would you use this?
Stoutland - Ur Covered this in another post but this mon is still absolutely awful and the fact that's on the VR makes me so sad.
Sirfetch'd - Ur lots of fighting type competition, usable but meh
Tangrowth - 5 redirector, outclassed in most cases by Amoongus but it's still decent.
Terrakion - 5 covered in another post
Toxtricity - Ur This mon is just kinda bad lol, rip Partman's sample
Those are all noms btw mubs, have fun with the sheet . In conclusion, keep the tiering system, cull the lower tiers
Now stop posting shitty one liners, cheers
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