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np: BW OU Suspect Testing Round 12 - Always (I Wanna Be With You) [SEE POST #263]
- Thread starter haunter
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Yeah, I know it was never implied, but I just want to make it clear that I don't think Starmie will replace Keldeo, as it is pretty unique in that its one of the few Special attackers that can easily get past Ferrothorn, Blissey, and Tyranitar. I was only comparing damage calcs to show that Starmie is not weak, as some people were claiming to make Keldeo look more terrifying than it actually is.
Also, sorry if there are any typos in this post, I'm on my phone atm.
Also, sorry if there are any typos in this post, I'm on my phone atm.
How does keldeo get past celebi, jellicent, toxicroak, amoongas, lati@s and everything else that stops keldeo. I honestly dont know how the discussion got to starmie anyway. They both are similar in some aspect and they have their pros and cons... I.e starmie is faster than lati@s and can rapid spin but is pursuit weak. I remember using a fun team where I had both scarf keldeo and scarf/LO starmie on a rain team. They both destroyed many teams with just spamming surf/hydro pump after I removed the bulky shit and my opponents weather.
Hidden Power? (no pun), Except Amoong who is very niche at anything apart from stoping Keldeo.
Aside from being one of the best defensive pivots in the game, of course.
With SR support, Specs Analytic Starmie I believe is guaranteed to 2HKO standard Ferrothorn with hp fire/fighting even in rain providing it switches in ( which is a neccesity in order to counter something ), and I believe it has a chance of 2HKOing it even with Hydro Pump in rain.
Blissey is easily 2HKO'd by Psyshock, and Chansey only needs to be worn down a bit, which isn't really hard considering it doesn't even have leftovers.
SpD ttar, despite removing the rain has a chance of being OHKO'd after rocks on the switch by Starmie, and ScarfTar is guaranteed to be OHKO'd.
Bravo on finding one counter (Chansey), who unlike pokemon like Latias actually has no place on offensive teams.
Okay, so I don't think Keldeo is broken nor overpowered. I seem to be the only one (alongside with arcticblast) that Keldeo harms offense far more than it harms anything else. My argument is this: Keldeo is uncompetitive because it centralizes offensive teams to run a small number of bad Keldeo checks such as Latios, Dragonite, and offensive Latias (cm latias is piss weak without boosts.) This restricts offense to be Ttar or SR weak, which are extremely common partners to Keldeo and such cannot serve their full purpose of checking Keldeo. This isn't even counting EBelt Keldeo which is beyond annoying for offense to deal with because of Icy Wind. (Latios can't switch in!) Why must we only think that because stall can run multiple checks to Keldeo, it isn't ban worthy? Why must we think that stall is the only acceptable playstyle?
This seems to be the only suspect so far in BW2 that does this and why do we have this obvious bias towards stall? As a community as a whole we think that stall is by far the best and only acceptable playstyle. We only vote to preserve stall and don't care about the other playstyles such as HO, rain (besides Torn-T who was obviously broken), sun. I am mainly an offense player. Obviously I have a bias towards offense but everyone else seems to have a bias towards stall.
I know what this isn't about Landorus but as an offense player, Landorus wasn't threatening at all unless it could pull of an RP, which was hard when every poke on an offense team had an ice or water attack. But Landorus murdered stall and that's why we banned it. Keldeo is the exact opposite and I still fail to understand this bias that the playerbase has. If someone could answer this, I'd be overjoyed. Now before someone jumps on me because I am way too biased, ask yourself this: can you make an HO team without Dragonite, Lati@s, or Kingdra and not get destroyed by scarf Keldeo? Try it; it isn't easy.
Keldeo is also extremely hard to revenge. It has excellent 91/90/90 bulk for such a fast pokemon, as well as excellent defensive typing and great speed. Scarf Latios is the only pokemon that can revenge scarf Keldeo (btw Ebelt and Scarf are the sets I'm most worried about.) It is bulky enough to have a chance of surviving scarf latios's super effective STAB Psyshock after SR! It can also take a +2 LO extremespeed from max atk Luke. It resists Bullet Punch, can take non boosted Breloom's LO Mach Punch, resist Ice Shard and Aqua Jet. It is the reason why base 108 speed is the thing you want to shoot for to not get destroyed (110 also I guess.)
Okay so I'm done ranting feel free to come attack me but whatever. I'm here to present my case.
This seems to be the only suspect so far in BW2 that does this and why do we have this obvious bias towards stall? As a community as a whole we think that stall is by far the best and only acceptable playstyle. We only vote to preserve stall and don't care about the other playstyles such as HO, rain (besides Torn-T who was obviously broken), sun. I am mainly an offense player. Obviously I have a bias towards offense but everyone else seems to have a bias towards stall.
I know what this isn't about Landorus but as an offense player, Landorus wasn't threatening at all unless it could pull of an RP, which was hard when every poke on an offense team had an ice or water attack. But Landorus murdered stall and that's why we banned it. Keldeo is the exact opposite and I still fail to understand this bias that the playerbase has. If someone could answer this, I'd be overjoyed. Now before someone jumps on me because I am way too biased, ask yourself this: can you make an HO team without Dragonite, Lati@s, or Kingdra and not get destroyed by scarf Keldeo? Try it; it isn't easy.
Keldeo is also extremely hard to revenge. It has excellent 91/90/90 bulk for such a fast pokemon, as well as excellent defensive typing and great speed. Scarf Latios is the only pokemon that can revenge scarf Keldeo (btw Ebelt and Scarf are the sets I'm most worried about.) It is bulky enough to have a chance of surviving scarf latios's super effective STAB Psyshock after SR! It can also take a +2 LO extremespeed from max atk Luke. It resists Bullet Punch, can take non boosted Breloom's LO Mach Punch, resist Ice Shard and Aqua Jet. It is the reason why base 108 speed is the thing you want to shoot for to not get destroyed (110 also I guess.)
Okay so I'm done ranting feel free to come attack me but whatever. I'm here to present my case.
You said you don't think its broken but all you done was complained about how offense is forced to use bad Pokemon (I dunno when Dragonite, Starmie, Latios, Toxicroak, Reuniclus, Salamence, or Rotom-W became bad, but whatever).
Absolutly not. I said that it is over centralizing, not broken. It is not too powerful for offense but too all around difficult to play around. Starmie can't switch in, Toxicroak is only useful on rain, Reun is not for all teams, Salamence gets destroyed, Rotom-W can't switch in, Dragonite and Latios are the only valid all useful checks on that list.
EDIT: these are not bad pokemon but bad Keldeo checks
I'm sorry but in a real battle situation, they can all switch into Keldeo. You're acting as if the Keldeo user has perfect prediction, while the Starmie user is an idiot. We've already established that prediction is a terrible argument, and the fact is these Pokemon can switch in.
Saying that Reuniclus isn't for every team or that Toxicroak is only used on Rain teams is just silly, because they are still solid checks regardless, and they can be fit onto offensive teams. Saying Salamence gets destroys is a huge exaggeration and just simply isn't true. Yes on paper Salamence is OHKOd with SR up and rain or whatever, but this is assuming perfect conditions and just doesnt happen in a real battle.
Also, even if these Pokemon cant switch in (which isn't true), they still check Keldeo. I dunno why you expect offensive teams to be able to switch into the hardest hitters in the tier easily. The same can be said about a lot of Pokemon, but does that make them broken? No, it doesn't.
Saying that Reuniclus isn't for every team or that Toxicroak is only used on Rain teams is just silly, because they are still solid checks regardless, and they can be fit onto offensive teams. Saying Salamence gets destroys is a huge exaggeration and just simply isn't true. Yes on paper Salamence is OHKOd with SR up and rain or whatever, but this is assuming perfect conditions and just doesnt happen in a real battle.
Also, even if these Pokemon cant switch in (which isn't true), they still check Keldeo. I dunno why you expect offensive teams to be able to switch into the hardest hitters in the tier easily. The same can be said about a lot of Pokemon, but does that make them broken? No, it doesn't.
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I would not use Toxicroak on a nonrain team. Simple is that. And my arguement isn't prediction because Hydro Pump kills stuff easily. You don't need to predict with Keldeo. You can just spam Hydro Pump.
Wait a sec, so you're assuming Rain when using Keldeo (because that's the only way its beating Mence and Starmie with Hydro Pump), but I cant assume Rain with Toxicroak? Seems fair to me.
Also, check a few pages back, people talk about how Toxicroak is viable outside of Rain.
Also, check a few pages back, people talk about how Toxicroak is viable outside of Rain.
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No I am not assuming rain is always up but it can 2 hit both mence and starmie with any of its attacks and both are wrecked by icy wind.
But you just said you dont need prediction, and that you said you can just spam Hydro Pump, now youre saying you need prediction to beat these two? And we've already established that prediction is a terrible arugement. Youre just going around in circles.
Also, if you don't think Keldeo is broken why are you trying to convince me that it can beat all of its checks easily?
Also, if you don't think Keldeo is broken why are you trying to convince me that it can beat all of its checks easily?
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MikeDawg
Banned deucer.
252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Starmie: 166-196 (63.6 - 75.09%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and weather
252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Salamence: 195-231 (58.91 - 69.78%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and weather
And that's in sand.
Keep rain up, and both are 1hkod.
Don't keep it up... oh well. People are so eager to spout out the argument that keldeo's checks have other purposes (so they are easy to fit on a team duh). so why would they not have taken prior damage, given all of these other purposes they have to fulfill?
252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Salamence: 195-231 (58.91 - 69.78%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and weather
And that's in sand.
Keep rain up, and both are 1hkod.
Don't keep it up... oh well. People are so eager to spout out the argument that keldeo's checks have other purposes (so they are easy to fit on a team duh). so why would they not have taken prior damage, given all of these other purposes they have to fulfill?
Mike I dunno what you expect from offensive teams vs. Specs Keldeo. Its like showing a Terrakion calc vs. Scizor and how it 2HKOs it so therefore it no longer checks it. So what if Keldeo 2HKOs its checks on an offensive team? The same can be said about a lot of Pokemon, but that doesnt make them broken.
Btw, Specs sets are probably the easiest Keldeo set for offensive teams to deal with, since its pretty easily revenge killed by offensive teams.
Btw, Specs sets are probably the easiest Keldeo set for offensive teams to deal with, since its pretty easily revenge killed by offensive teams.
About the last part, I agree. Its like facing Specs Latios. You lose a pokemon to revenge it. Scarf on the other hand is difficult to revenge. And to the above, you can just spam icy wind and hydro pump without prediction. There are no drawbacks to spamming these attacks.
If you think there are no drawbacks in spamming a base 55 non STAB move then go ahead. Also, being able to switch moves means you aren't choiced, which most people believe to be the sets that make Keldeo broken.
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THE SPEED DROP It hurts every mon but heatran but who switches Heatran into Keldeo? Thats why Icy Wind is so spamable.
Funny you say that. I've been grinding out suspects and I run into offense/balance about five times as frequently as stall, and common consensus is that stall in BW2 is the weakest it's ever been in the history of pokemon. Keldeo is the only offensive pokemon outside of Alakazam that fares better against offense than defense. Meanwhile, every other offensive threat places huge constraints on stall compared to offense. To run a successful rain stall team, at least five of your six man team is going to be picked from a pool of maybe nine pokemon, and that's being generous. Ditto for sandstall. Note that I'm only listing weatherstall: that's because those two are the only types of stall that are even close to viable.
Even if Keldeo did overcentralize the offensive meta (which is a big 'if' considering how many checks it has), the result would be that balance and stall would be freer in its teambuilding. Considering how many more options you have when building an offensive team than a defensive one, this would be a point in its favor, not against it.
What I don't get about doublenikesocks' argument is that he stated that Keldeo isn't broken. Isn't the point of suspect tests to ban broken stuff? I mean, stuff can be overcentralizing, and they always will be. There will always be that very powerful 'mon that makes everyone constantly think of but fits in the tier. Keldeo does have checks and counters, and they are usable. Sure you do have to add that 'mon, but then you do add a steel type to counter Latios right? And please don't say that Keldeo's checks / counters are not usable. They are.
Pretty sure a lot of Pokemon don't care that much about losing their Speed, or at least at that time in the match. Pretty sure something like Ferrothorn doesn't give a crap if you lower its Speed. Hell even if something like Starmie switched into Icy Wind, it won't really mind. It could just click Hydro Pump if they know you're locked in and destroy something with rain boosted Hydro Pump. It's not like the speed drop carries on for the whole match, they can switch out, you know.
All calculations are assuming E-Belt Keldeo.
4/0 Latios: Icy Wind: 44.37 - 52.31%, HP Bug: 55.62 - 65.89%
That's .01% margin for Latios to escape a KO. Only Scarf Latios can beat this. No Rocks required.
4/0 Starmie: Icy Wind: 12.97 - 15.64%, HP Bug: 79.77 - 94.27%
A single layer of any hazard is enough for the KO.
And for kicks, 252/88+ Ferrothorn: Secret Sword: 63.35 - 75.56%
There's a reason when we list Ferrothorn and Blissey for Latios and Starmie but not for Keldeo.
4/0 Latios: Icy Wind: 44.37 - 52.31%, HP Bug: 55.62 - 65.89%
That's .01% margin for Latios to escape a KO. Only Scarf Latios can beat this. No Rocks required.
4/0 Starmie: Icy Wind: 12.97 - 15.64%, HP Bug: 79.77 - 94.27%
A single layer of any hazard is enough for the KO.
And for kicks, 252/88+ Ferrothorn: Secret Sword: 63.35 - 75.56%
There's a reason when we list Ferrothorn and Blissey for Latios and Starmie but not for Keldeo.
Also to continue on with my point. I would switch Heatran into Keldeo if it's Choice-locked and either Toxic you or the next pokemon switching in. You don't spam Icy Wind. What you do spam is Hydro Pump. You use Icy Wind predicting a Lati twin switch-in.
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