Quick mechanics question: does Core Enforcer only work once Power Construct has activated, or can the other two Zygarde formes use it?
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Pokémon Zygarde-Complete (100% Forme)
- Thread starter Funbot28
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http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7pokebankanythinggoes-480318851
I don't know about the other Zygarde forms, but looks like it.
How about a complex ban?
I mean, it's hard to pinpoint what pushes Zygarde over the edge, but we can safely say that it's a combination of 50% form, Power Construct, and Thousand Arrows.
I feel like Zygarde's viability hinges upon Thousand Arrows. Take that away, and even the Complete form with Coil, Dragon Dance, Extremespeed, RestTalk, etc. would struggle in OU. Too many things wall its dual STABs for it to work as a sweeper/wincon, and it'd be relegated to the role of a conditional lategame setup cleaner thing. You know, 'once my opponent's Flyers and Fairies are gone, I can set up Zygarde in lategame and win.'
Alternatively, Power Construct, the transformation's innate healing, and the increased bulk are what allow Zygarde to set up so effectively. Take that away and you limit the number of mons that Zygarde uses as setup bait.
10% form with Power Construct and Thousand Arrows might not be broken. 10% form and 50% form with Aura Break and Thousand Arrows probably aren't. 50% forme with Power Construct but no Thousand Arrows might not be broken.
Solutions:
- Ban Thousand Arrows.
I don't like this one. It'd neuter Aura Break doggo and snek too much, regardless of Complete form.
- Ban Power Construct.
Might work, but Aura Break 50% form with Thousand Arrows might still be too much. Needs testing.
- Ban 50% form + Power Construct.
Take away the initial bulk, and setup becomes much harder. Right now it's easy to set up the Coil RestTalk set because 50% form is already so bulky that activating Power Construct is almost guaranteed. 10% form would have to choose between Speed and bulk, and doggo is nowhere near as bulky as snek. Setting up would require more careful play and rewards skill more than current Zygarde. This also means that the specially bulky Complete form would be much more difficult to use, as 10% form's 54 / 71 / 85 bulk isn't enough to let it pull off all of the cheeky setups against mons that it currently can.
I hope people consider this idea. It lets us keep all of Zygarde's cool stuff while toning it down a little, hopefully it's enough.
Banning Thousand Arrows would be jumping into conclusions precipitately. Right now, as amazing as Thousand Arrows is as a move, Complete Zygarde's stupid, Eviolite Chansey-level bulk is the bigger problem, letting it set up even on things with ridiculously powerful neutral moves such as Specs Hoopa-U's Dark Pulse or even Pokemon with Ice-type moves.
If only Thousand Arrows is banned, then it will start running Earthquake, which means it will not be able to beat non-grounded Pokemon with a mono-attacking set... but many of those non-grounded Pokemon cannot beat Complete Zygarde either, just delay the inevitable. And what's stopping the Zygarde trainer to wait to beat all those non-grounded Pokemon before setting up with the extreme ease it tends to have? Especially now, with the vastly increased viability of terrains, teams with a lot of grounded Pokemon will become more common.
Banning Power Construct should be the way to go right now. Then we see if Thousand Arrows is still too much to handle.
If only Thousand Arrows is banned, then it will start running Earthquake, which means it will not be able to beat non-grounded Pokemon with a mono-attacking set... but many of those non-grounded Pokemon cannot beat Complete Zygarde either, just delay the inevitable. And what's stopping the Zygarde trainer to wait to beat all those non-grounded Pokemon before setting up with the extreme ease it tends to have? Especially now, with the vastly increased viability of terrains, teams with a lot of grounded Pokemon will become more common.
Banning Power Construct should be the way to go right now. Then we see if Thousand Arrows is still too much to handle.
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He's not asking if Power Construct procs twice in a battle. Core Enforcer is Complete Zygarde's signature move (Dragon, 100bp special, has Mold Breaker if the opponent has already moved), and he's wondering if you have to wait until it's in complete form to use it (think Hyperspace Fury) or whether doggo/snek can use it.
(I don't know the answer to that.)
Deleted User 229847
Banned deucer.
actually zygarde can run toxic>sleep talk and fuck up non-flying types on the long run.
No, we're not going to ban Thousand Arrows. That move has nothing to do with luck, form changes, or any other condition that requires us to take special consideration for a move, item, or ability. It's just a strong move with great coverage. Power Construct is one thing because it actually involves a form change, so banning it would be akin to banning Mega stones as a practical way of banning the Mega form. If Zygarde is still broken after that, we ban Zygarde. I mean, if we couldn't ban King's Shield to save Aegislash even though it actually had a semi-luck element to it, then we certainly aren't going to ban Thousand Arrows to save Zygarde just because it's a really good Ground STAB.
Honestly don't think regular Zygarde would be broken with Thousand arrows, it might be but I'm not sure. I am however certain that Zygarde-Complete is with it.
Can someone tell me why people in the old Zygarde thread didn't think this is broken? I mean some other people including me and not knowing the "Sitrus Berry" effect of the ability said that Zygarde with Healing Wish Support would be busted.
Like... it has better physical bulk than Blissey has special bulk. It has Dragon Dance and is similar to Garchomp. Whut
Like... it has better physical bulk than Blissey has special bulk. It has Dragon Dance and is similar to Garchomp. Whut
We did know that transforming healed it. It was noticed ever since the trailer that revealed Power Construct was shown to public.
Thing is... we terribly underestimated its bulk. We just saw doubled base HP, -10 Speed and +10 Special Attack and were disappointed.
Then we happened to see it in practice and noticed how unkillable it is.
I think people were just underwhelmed. They expected Zygarde to become this badass Mega Rayquaza destroying beast, but instead it "just" got double HP. Everyone wrote it off as just Zen Mode v2 because they didn't think it would be easy to activate, especially with the "252 Atk 252 Spe" meme.
The main problem is the bulk Power Construct provides.
Thousand Arrows is great, yes, but you just can't set up as liberally without that safety blanket it provides.
Thousand Arrows is great, yes, but you just can't set up as liberally without that safety blanket it provides.
By the way, what do you think of giving Zygarde a consumable item?
A Groundium Z is not a very good idea as you'd need to sacrifice bulk to 2HKO Unaware Clefable or Quagsire with Tectonic Rage.
What about a Berry? Maybe Maranga to further boost its special bulk. Yache could also be a candidate so that it can take even the strongest Ice-type moves out there and transform into 100%.
A Groundium Z is not a very good idea as you'd need to sacrifice bulk to 2HKO Unaware Clefable or Quagsire with Tectonic Rage.
What about a Berry? Maybe Maranga to further boost its special bulk. Yache could also be a candidate so that it can take even the strongest Ice-type moves out there and transform into 100%.
I've actually seen focus sash work well on the 10% form due to its lack of bulk.
http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/zygarde-discussion.3586563/page-3#post-7075487
I don't know about anyone else, but I saw this coming a mile away. You're talking 216/121/95 bulk, great STAB coverage, a fantastic Ground STAB in Thousand Arrows, Extremespeed, and two great boosting moves. I thought it was pretty obvious that this guy was going to be crazy in OU. I think the real reason people seemed so underwhelmed wasn't because they didn't think it was going to be amazing in OU. It's because this thing was sold as a Pokemon whose power exceeds that of Xerneas and Yveltal, but because all it got was a massive HP boost, its power is still pretty low by Ubers standards.
This is what I call a "Tapu Bulu and Clefable Lure" lure, since they're commonly used to check Zygarde-C.
Zygarde-Complete @ Steelium Z
Ability: Power Construct
EVs: 212 HP / 252 Atk / 44 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Thousand Arrows
- Rest/Extremespeed
- Iron Tail
For idk reason, Zygarde got Iron Tail, so
252+ Atk Zygarde Iron Tail (180 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 316-372 (80.4 - 94.6%) -- 50% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
With a little chip from Thousand Arrows you should win.
Against Tapu Bulu, you're most likely win because it doesn't have Unaware. It should 1HKO after +1
Thousand Arrows is without a doubt the main reason why Zygarde-C is completely broken. It's fundamentally bad in design since it outright bypasses an immunity without any drawbacks. Without it, mono-attacking sets would be destroyed by Ground immunes, and it would be extremely difficult for it to sweep with just Dragon / Ground coverage.
I'm not saying I want to ban the move, but it is absolutely "King's Shield" tier in terms of ridiculousness.
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It's just another really powerful signature move, and it's not the first of its kind. V-Create helped get Victini banned from UU, King's Shield helped get Aegislash banned from OU, and now Thousand Arrows might help Zygarde get banned from OU. In previous cases, we always banned the Pokemon instead of the move. This case should be no different.
Right, i'm not against banning Zygarde whatsoever. I just wanted to clarify that Thousand Arrows is more than just a "strong move with great coverage." You could give it to other Pokemon (such as Garchomp) and see similar results because the move itself is completely broken.
Deleted User 229847
Banned deucer.
this thing needs to be eradicated from the tier. I think this is the most broken pokemon right now. Anyway, it might change as the time passes and people find new combinations, so I might be wrong on the ban. I would suggest a complex ban for zyg-c+thousand arrows, but again, it might even be way too strong even without it.
Games really not even worth playing with this thing running around. Your team literally needs like 3 or so checks to even hope to do anything on the ladder. then with the multitude of threats outside of this it makes teambuilding almost impossible as you are opening yourself up to something if you rightfully over prepared for this. Hyper offense doesn't stop it, it destroys balance, and I imagine stall loses outright to it as well since it could run toxic to crippling Quaq/Clefable.
Tory
Banned deucer.
This the #1 main Pokemon on Showdown right now that's giving me the best luck in OU. Dragon Dance + Extreme Speed = victory.
I better keep using it before it become Uber.
EDIT: Wow, everyone in this topic was using Zygarde 50% Power Construct? I was using Zygarde 10% Power Construct. :)
I better keep using it before it become Uber.
EDIT: Wow, everyone in this topic was using Zygarde 50% Power Construct? I was using Zygarde 10% Power Construct. :)
Why are so many talking about banning Thousand Arrows? If anything about Zygard-Complete is broken then it's its bulk.
I made the account to post my experiences against it: rom what I see, Dual-STAB+Resttalk is one of the common sets, but gets completely walled by Tapu Bulu, even at +2, interestingly enough. The other set I encountered was Sub, which certainly poses problems if it gets up the sub for free. I did change up my team's movesets to incorporate Blizzard instead of Ice Beam to somewhat reliably 2HKO it through the Power Construct recovery. So far, I had a rather good time dealing with it, honestly, which in part probably needs to be attributed to its current predictability. I'm just throwing out options to deal with the thing here, because I prefer looking for ways to deal with it instead of just discussing the kind of banhammer it should receive:
- Ice Beams don't reliably 2HKO it anytime soon from full, much less OHKO. My reaction was upping the power level. Blizzard from uninvested Slowbro does 80% and Zygarde can't deal with it unboosted. The fact it can survive Blizzards is insane, but said Blizzard was unSTABed and uninvested, from a wall.
- Zygarde's STABs are completely useless against Grass/Fairy, so Tapu Bulu can easily deal with dual-STAB. I run Adamant 252Atk with Lefties, which 3HKOs unboosted, but it can SD in Zygarde's face and turn that into a 2HKO(all in Grassy Terrain btw). The Zygarde I fended off that way never could as much as 3HKO without boost to +3 or +4, which is an unreasonable thing to expect in the face of Tapu Bulu.
- Trick Room is incredibly viable this generation, imo, and screws over Zygarde's speed boosts(as well as UB threats). Just something to note, but TR was always anti-meta, so not as big a surprise. Just throwing out there that a rise in TR in singles may completely neuter UBs, it just needs to happen first. A meta change instead of a ban balancing UBs and Zygarde out sounds much more desirable to me.
- It either lacks priority or recovery, it can't have both, which is a fact that made it much easier to deal with. It's predictable.
- It needs to boost to do real damage. In that way, it's no different from other mons.
Just throwing out there. I still don't think the huge bulk is ban-worthy, even though it certainly IS a big threat.
I made the account to post my experiences against it: rom what I see, Dual-STAB+Resttalk is one of the common sets, but gets completely walled by Tapu Bulu, even at +2, interestingly enough. The other set I encountered was Sub, which certainly poses problems if it gets up the sub for free. I did change up my team's movesets to incorporate Blizzard instead of Ice Beam to somewhat reliably 2HKO it through the Power Construct recovery. So far, I had a rather good time dealing with it, honestly, which in part probably needs to be attributed to its current predictability. I'm just throwing out options to deal with the thing here, because I prefer looking for ways to deal with it instead of just discussing the kind of banhammer it should receive:
- Ice Beams don't reliably 2HKO it anytime soon from full, much less OHKO. My reaction was upping the power level. Blizzard from uninvested Slowbro does 80% and Zygarde can't deal with it unboosted. The fact it can survive Blizzards is insane, but said Blizzard was unSTABed and uninvested, from a wall.
- Zygarde's STABs are completely useless against Grass/Fairy, so Tapu Bulu can easily deal with dual-STAB. I run Adamant 252Atk with Lefties, which 3HKOs unboosted, but it can SD in Zygarde's face and turn that into a 2HKO(all in Grassy Terrain btw). The Zygarde I fended off that way never could as much as 3HKO without boost to +3 or +4, which is an unreasonable thing to expect in the face of Tapu Bulu.
- Trick Room is incredibly viable this generation, imo, and screws over Zygarde's speed boosts(as well as UB threats). Just something to note, but TR was always anti-meta, so not as big a surprise. Just throwing out there that a rise in TR in singles may completely neuter UBs, it just needs to happen first. A meta change instead of a ban balancing UBs and Zygarde out sounds much more desirable to me.
- It either lacks priority or recovery, it can't have both, which is a fact that made it much easier to deal with. It's predictable.
- It needs to boost to do real damage. In that way, it's no different from other mons.
Just throwing out there. I still don't think the huge bulk is ban-worthy, even though it certainly IS a big threat.
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