Going from NU to BL is not even comparable to going from BL to Ubers. And while it's apparently "not recommended" how has something like deoxys-d just as an example, where probably ~95% had NO offensive presence other than(lol) night shade, been banned the past 3 gens? His sets were basically the same thing 9/10 times. And as smashbros said, not like jumping a tier is unheard off. I'm pretty sure gothitelle was NU at the time of her banning and went straight from NU-->BL. That's a bigger jump then BL-->Ubers. I can understand people not wanting it banned but i don't understand how using the (incorrect) arguement of "it's UU it shouldn't get banned" or only pointing out one of it's apparently weaker sets and not giving mention to any of it's other sets. That's one thing all these suspects have: incredible versatility.
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XY Suspect Testing Round 1 np: Michael Jackson - (extreme)Speed Demon (READ POST #1278)
- Thread starter Aldaron
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It would appear that without some luck going my way (would be completely new), I'm not going to get anywhere near 1700 without getting dark pulse flinched to death vs mega lucario.
However, having played the suspect ladder, I have been greatly satisfied so far with how the metagame feels. Yeah, Charizard seems to be top dog, but he's certainly manageable. What a fantastic feeling to not have to fear Lucario ever game.
Having played both, I would solidly support Genesect's ban. The mindless turning with huge coverage threats is gone, and it makes for a more competitive metagame. Even having a fantastic counter to him, I often find his switching so mindless by just how much he can threaten out. His coverage moves (electric/Fire/Ice) threatens out almost everything short of fire types and some electric types (mainly mono-electric, unseen outside of Manectric-mega/raikou).
As we talk about momentum gained indefinitely after deo-s' setting, Genesect instantly gains momentum against every common threat in OU outside of talonflame, Volcarona, Heatran, rotom-h. He isn't meant to take hits and generally will not. Turns out on any obvious switches, punishes you for predicting him to turn out. I think his ban isn't a sheer power problem, it's a free momentum problem, giving one side a completely uncompetitive edge. Uturn in general is not broken, most times the abusers only have a stab/coverage move to go off of. See: Scizor (uturn/bulletpunch/ BW2 super power, XY Knock Off). Not only that, Genesect does have sheer power in his free boosts. Yeah, it isn't as dangerous as it was, but the free boost carries his 120 attack stats still give him a great deal of power.
He's certainly capable of being handled. HOWEVER, in a good player's hands, and in most matches, he is free momentum. He forces more switches, brings in a very limited amount of checks and then can threaten them right back out by bringing in a check/counter. And not only is he a good turner, after wearing down the opposing team, he simply goes to sweep. No, he isn't hard to scout, his sets are predictable, and he can be worn down (it generally takes 8 switches, though, if rocks are all we factor in). However, a combination of power, coverage, and free momentum gained carries him to be terribly detrimental to a competitive metagame. This game should be an even field where the difference between wins/losses is skill of the players, both in team building and battling. Genesect, unlike lucario, inhibits battling decisions (Lucario severely limits team building, but can inhibit battling decisions). I think his ban should be more on the ability to have a more competitive metagame.
However, having played the suspect ladder, I have been greatly satisfied so far with how the metagame feels. Yeah, Charizard seems to be top dog, but he's certainly manageable. What a fantastic feeling to not have to fear Lucario ever game.
Having played both, I would solidly support Genesect's ban. The mindless turning with huge coverage threats is gone, and it makes for a more competitive metagame. Even having a fantastic counter to him, I often find his switching so mindless by just how much he can threaten out. His coverage moves (electric/Fire/Ice) threatens out almost everything short of fire types and some electric types (mainly mono-electric, unseen outside of Manectric-mega/raikou).
As we talk about momentum gained indefinitely after deo-s' setting, Genesect instantly gains momentum against every common threat in OU outside of talonflame, Volcarona, Heatran, rotom-h. He isn't meant to take hits and generally will not. Turns out on any obvious switches, punishes you for predicting him to turn out. I think his ban isn't a sheer power problem, it's a free momentum problem, giving one side a completely uncompetitive edge. Uturn in general is not broken, most times the abusers only have a stab/coverage move to go off of. See: Scizor (uturn/bulletpunch/ BW2 super power, XY Knock Off). Not only that, Genesect does have sheer power in his free boosts. Yeah, it isn't as dangerous as it was, but the free boost carries his 120 attack stats still give him a great deal of power.
He's certainly capable of being handled. HOWEVER, in a good player's hands, and in most matches, he is free momentum. He forces more switches, brings in a very limited amount of checks and then can threaten them right back out by bringing in a check/counter. And not only is he a good turner, after wearing down the opposing team, he simply goes to sweep. No, he isn't hard to scout, his sets are predictable, and he can be worn down (it generally takes 8 switches, though, if rocks are all we factor in). However, a combination of power, coverage, and free momentum gained carries him to be terribly detrimental to a competitive metagame. This game should be an even field where the difference between wins/losses is skill of the players, both in team building and battling. Genesect, unlike lucario, inhibits battling decisions (Lucario severely limits team building, but can inhibit battling decisions). I think his ban should be more on the ability to have a more competitive metagame.
Genesect's moveset is quite predictable... while Mega Luke is unpredictable. Genesect has an unreliable boosting ability (it is certainly unreliable compared to Protean) although it acts as a good form of scouting, but Download can be played around through EV investment. A Mixed Mega Luke user can a negative physical defensive nature (which would also slightly boost Close Combat from a negative nature) along with some Special Defense investment to avoid the KO from Genesect's Flamethrower. Hasty requires 60 Special Defense EVs and only lowers its Special Attack by 4%.
Mega Luke's boosting moves are what makes it so unpredictable and also its access to a Close Combat that is powerful even when uninvested and has a negative nature. It is difficult to figure out if it is sweeping or just killing something and switching out. Also, it is hard to stop once it is sweeping because a wrong guess could mean your counter is gone. In contrast, most Genesect use Flamethrower except the Shift Gear sets, regardless of its EV investment because Flamethrower's targets are physically defensive and it also circumvents Rocky Helmet.
Due to its really good defensive typing for a sweeper as it survives most strong priority, with the exception of item and/or ability enhanced Mach Punches, and possesses immunity to Toxic stalling, it is hard to find a universal check. Assault Vest Conkeldurr works as a bulky offense check that has enormous utility against other threats too, but Mega Luke has to be weakened first.
I wanna look a bit more at that bolded bit. I'll use Manaphy w/o defensive investment as a target for everyone here, as it's a good neutral target. If the attack wouldn't be neutral, I'll use another 600 BST mon in Manaphy's place.
248 SpA Life Orb Deoxys-S Psycho Boost vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Manaphy: 239-282 (70 - 82.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Garchomp Outrage vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Manaphy: 196-232 (57.4 - 68%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 4 Atk Genesect U-turn vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Manaphy: 133-157 (39 - 46%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 252 SpA Genesect Flash Cannon vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 186-219 (54.5 - 64.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Latios Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Manaphy: 213-252 (62.4 - 73.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Latios Psyshock vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Manaphy: 132-156 (38.7 - 45.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Terrakion Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Manaphy: 195-231 (57.1 - 67.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Mega Tyranitar Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Manaphy: 195-229 (57.1 - 67.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after sandstorm damage and Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Chandelure Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 195-231 (57.1 - 67.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Chandelure Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Manaphy: 142-168 (41.6 - 49.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Garchomp Outrage vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Manaphy: 196-232 (57.4 - 68%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 4 Atk Genesect U-turn vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Manaphy: 133-157 (39 - 46%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 252 SpA Genesect Flash Cannon vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 186-219 (54.5 - 64.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Latios Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Manaphy: 213-252 (62.4 - 73.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Latios Psyshock vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Manaphy: 132-156 (38.7 - 45.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Terrakion Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Manaphy: 195-231 (57.1 - 67.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Mega Tyranitar Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Manaphy: 195-229 (57.1 - 67.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after sandstorm damage and Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Chandelure Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 195-231 (57.1 - 67.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Chandelure Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Manaphy: 142-168 (41.6 - 49.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
So, looking at several common scarfers and using neutral targets for all, it would appear that your statement is wrong. Things get more complicated when type advantages and stat drops come into the picture, but Deoxys-S is definitely stronger against neutral targets off the bat. Take those calculations as you will.
Also I don't get your point regarding it being unable to break walls. Like, at all. How is that relevant? That's not what it does. You just likened it to a Scarfer and understood that it excels at revenge killing literally a few lines prior, so you obviously understand its role. I don't think anyone expects it to be a wallbreaker, nor does its ability to do so affect whether or not it should be banned. Mega Aggron is incredibly irrelevant to the dialogue here.
Now, I'm not trying to argue for or against Deo-S here, but I'd like to see people arguing with correct information and on relevant points.
Fair enough. I only highlighted the use of Deo's supportive sets since they are usually most prevalent.
Is Gothitelle really the only other time a tier leap has happened then? That's not much of a precedent. I'm pretty sure that ban had something to do with it's admittedly rather broken ability Shadow Tag, which is really incomparable to the case of Deoxy's who's support revolves around setting up spikes and getting off a fast taunt. Lots of things can provide such a similar supportive role intended for Deoxy's to fill some of the time.
Is Gothitelle really the only other time a tier leap has happened then? That's not much of a precedent. I'm pretty sure that ban had something to do with it's admittedly rather broken ability Shadow Tag, which is really incomparable to the case of Deoxy's who's support revolves around setting up spikes and getting off a fast taunt. Lots of things can provide such a similar supportive role intended for Deoxy's to fill some of the time.
I do not see how Genesect's presence unique inhibit battling decisions relative to Levitate, Magic Bounce, Flying type, Ground type, Ghosts, Fairies, Volt Absorb, Water Absorb, Defiant, Guts, the threat of Weakness Policy on Dragonite to deter weak HP Ice and Stone Edge, Rocky Helmet, Iron Barbs, Substitute/Sucker Punch guessing games, Scald spamming etc. also inhibit battling decisions. Genesect does influence (and inhibits) the leads metagame since it can threaten common leads such as Lando-T and Tyranitar.
Genesect can be dealt with on HO, balanced, and stall teams with proper team building and battle tactics, although at times, its superior coverage does make it a prediction game when against the Scarf set. HO can just overwhelm it with strong priority and set up hazards; and stall can use hazards and moves like Protect (although they do not usually have Pokemon above the 99 Speed Tier to confirm whether it is Scarfed). In this meta, Genesect acting as a revenge killer has to be used very conservatively and cannot mindlessly spam U-turn spamming or engage in guessing games of prediction to hit forced switches if it needs to be used later as a means of checking a sweeper with access to priority. The presence of a Heatran on a balanced team with a sweeper with strong priority along with Stealth Rock deters Genesect from scouting.
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Um no. We don't ban things because you have to carry a check to them. You should have a check to almost every OU poke on a well built team. The problem is that there are so few checks to things like Mega-Lucario and Genesect. Basically, broken stuff requires niche checks that don't do much else, while non-broken stuff can be checked by a decent number of things that are viable in OU on their own.
EDIT: Doctor Swagmoar, you just need to understand that usage doesn't matter for the purposes of suspect testing - if it's broken, we ban it. End of story.
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Although iffy, Genesect can be effectively checked by the HO playstyle since can lay hazard or use Rapid Spin/Defog to remove Rocks for Mega Pinsir and Talonflame. Thundurus-I, Talonflame, ScarfChomp, ScarfRaptor, Bisharp, Mega Mawile, and Mega Pinsir (Genesect needs to be weakened in this case) are viable on their own. Talonflame does not necessarily check the common Scarf set (it loses to ESpeed) but the HO playstyle should have ways of covering Talonflame's weakness, and one can say that a successfully implemented HO playing style does prevent Genesect from doing anything even though HO Pokemon like Talonflame and Mega Pinsir are not "checks" or "counters" to the Scarf set in the strict sense of the word. Gen 6 HO is certainly viable and is one reason why Genesect isn't that menacing when compared to Gen 5 (although I haven't played when Genesect was legal).
AV Conkeldurr and Heatran are viable options for bulky offensive. Rotom-W can absorb a U-Turn and slow Volt Switch out (or correctly predict a Ground switch in by Wisping or Hydro Pumping it) as a means of counter momentum and only has to worry about the uncommon Energy Ball/Giga Drain. Protect plus hazard control contain the Scarf set on stall, but they will suffer from the uncertainty because Genesect can maintain the illusion of being Choiced easier against those teams.
Genesect does not require niche checks.
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I know, I wasn't commenting on the brokenness of anything in particular. I was just responding to The JUST8R's comment that he wanted Genesect and Mega Lucario banned because they have to be checked. I don't think Genesect is broken, but I'm on the fence enough to leave that discussion to everyone else.
I
Just to let you know, if i have to use a bloody moltres in OU for mega luc, that is over centrallizing. Moltres was like NU last gen. I shouldnt have to use an NU pokemon in OU to beat a certain Pokemon. This is like the whole Cofag mega kang thing. It actully supports banning mega luc.
EDIT oops, i qouted 2 other posts at the top, ignore those.
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Okay I am going to say. That because of the HUGE move pool both mega luc and Genesect have they should both be sent ubers. There really is no counter to any of these pokes, so really i feel like they don't belong in ou. Lucario has plenty of checks, but extreme speed is so good that it makes the physical set really scary for any pokemon that tries to kill it with priority. Genesect is Genesect really there shouldn't be any argument here. Now Deoxys-s I have mixed feelings about. With the new power increase does it stay alive long enough to keep hazards up, especially with defog out there? I don't know that answer, from what I have seen is that most teams that utilize deoxys the most and they dont need hazards up for long, so Deoxys I am still undecided also, 95/95 attack stats isn't too shabby either.
Personally, while I haven't been battling recently (and when I have, I've rarely seen Mega Lucario), but I'll talk about my opinion on these.
Specially Offensive Mega Lucario, as many have said, doesn't have many counters in the OU tier. Lucario's typing and movepool makes it very hard to counter with Specially defensive Pokemon.
Blissey, even as the very reliable special wall that she is, sadly doesn't counter Lucario due to her obvious Fighting weakness.
Fairies are hit heavily by Flash Cannon, Ghosts are hit by Dark Pulse if Lucario runs it, and Poison-types are weak to Psychic, which Lucario can learn.
And let's not forget freaking Adaptability: it'll obliterate you're team, to say the least. Nasty Plot + Adaptability = want ban nao.freaking steel-types.
Alright, for Genesect, without writing a novel... I do think it should be banned,but that's just me hating steel-types (there's a lot of reasons warranting a ban, but I'm kinda tired and don't want to point them out like everyone else has).
Deoxys-S isn't too bad, I haven't had too much trouble with it, and I haven't seen it restricting team building, but that's just me.
Specially Offensive Mega Lucario, as many have said, doesn't have many counters in the OU tier. Lucario's typing and movepool makes it very hard to counter with Specially defensive Pokemon.
Blissey, even as the very reliable special wall that she is, sadly doesn't counter Lucario due to her obvious Fighting weakness.
Fairies are hit heavily by Flash Cannon, Ghosts are hit by Dark Pulse if Lucario runs it, and Poison-types are weak to Psychic, which Lucario can learn.
And let's not forget freaking Adaptability: it'll obliterate you're team, to say the least. Nasty Plot + Adaptability = want ban nao.
Alright, for Genesect, without writing a novel... I do think it should be banned,
Deoxys-S isn't too bad, I haven't had too much trouble with it, and I haven't seen it restricting team building, but that's just me.
I do not like the "huge" movepool argument, even if it is true. Iron Head, Flamethrower, Thunderbolt, and Ice Beam are all good moves on the Scarf set. Flamethrower and Ice Beam are used because they can easily kill, in conjunction with Genesect's ability, high value targets in the OU metagame. Thunderbolt and Iron Head do not provide much additional coverage, but Thunderbolt can also damage physically defensive Rotom-W, Mandibuzz, and Togekiss; and Iron Head Fairies and physically weak threats. U-Turn proves STAB momentum with the possibility of an additional Download boost, and it also reduces, but does not eliminate, the element of prediction on a Choice set. Regardless of the perceived vastness of its move pool, U-Turn, Flamethrower and Ice Beam are used because they are good and are in its move pool.
ExtremeSpeed and Explosion are stuff to watch out for too. Scarf + ESpeed are somewhat redundant though. Explosion just provides raw power with no coverage. ESpeed is way for a Scarf-less set to overcome its lack of speed.
A versatility argument based on the moves it carries should be based on actual usage statistics regardless of the perceived depth of its movepool. I suppose a useful concept would be information entropy of the usage of the Pokemon's actual moves (although this is admittedly inaccurate if, for example, moves like Scald, Surf, and Hydro Pump on a Greninja are considered separate entries as they are almost mutually exclusive on Greninja who does not redundant attacking moves of the same type in order to fully utilize Protean). Simply put, Pokemon with highly predictable move sets have a low information entropy of moves. Moves like Secret Sword on a Keldeo or Earthquake on a Gliscor are on practically every set of its respective Pokemon and contribute little to information entropy. Also, HP Ground on Genesect is quite uncommon (and does not even show up on the December usage statistics), and in this case, HP Ground would therefore have a negligible contribute on information entropy. One reason it is uncommon is that it requires so many things to go right for it to kill Heatran such as getting a Download boost and having Heatran switch in without Air Balloon) and has other costs such as revealing Life Orb and depriving it one of its coverage moves.
Its most highest used move it 54% and its moves are highly dispersed.Goodra said:
With the exception of Shadow Ball, its over notable moves range from 59 to 4 percent. A Fairy user would have to guess whether it has Sludge Bomb (and this can be a good reason for the Gengar user to reserve it) and a Ferrothorn user has to accept the risk of it carry Focus Blast (and it hitting, of course). It also carries a wide variety of fairly niche coverage and utility moves.Gengar said:
However, information entropy is an element of unpredictability, but not necessarily synonymous with it. A Gengar carrying a life orb would probably not run Substitute unless it has Pain Split.
Genesect's moveset certainly has less information entropy than the aforementioned examples:
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Edit: Goodra may not be as good of an example, since Fire Blast and Flamethrower not that qualitatively different.
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Mega Lucario - I think everyone's descision is united on this one. Mega-Lucario has the movepool, the power, and the teammates to where he over-centralizes the meta. His ability to run Nasty Plot, Swords Dance, or even Mixed Attacker sets is beyond scary. It forces people to run obnoxious and gimmicky pokemon to counter it entirely; and nine times out of ten it doesn't work out. M-Lucario also has the stats to back up his movepool. Being able to 2HKO most [If not all] of the OU meta is disgusting. Finally, Lucario also has 5 more teamslots that can help build up for it's lackluster performance. Sticky Web and Hazards support will give Mega-Lucario just enough time to setup and start sweeping right out the game.
Lucario isn't without it's problems however. Mega-Lucario doesn't have enough speed to compete with Scarf'd users like Genesect or Terrakion. This however can be cured with either Sticky Web support from Smeargle or Galvantula, or it's two priority moves in the form of Vacuum Wave and Bullet Punch. He also has his own problems when his sets are discovered such as Goodra for the Special Set and Quagsire for a Physical Set. M-Luca does have Counters and Checks but they are few and far between. Worse is that most if not all of M-Luca's Checks and Counters are very uncommon and gimmicky. Nine times out of Ten, your Assault Vest Goodra isn't gonna be able to do much aside from stopping a +2 Nasty Plot Lucario from Sweeping. Ban
Genesect - I'll be brief with this one. Genesect is basically a watered-down version of Mega Lucario in many respects due to their shared "surprise factor", Power, and it's ability to outclass other effective Leads/U-turners. What Genesect does is simple. Become unpredictable and lose because you didn't know that Genesect was carrying Giga Drain, Blaze Kick, or even Explosion. With it's download ability pushing it over the edge there is no point into users other potentially good candidates for leads like Greninja, Terrakion, or even Rotom-H.
Genesect is noticeably more crippled than other bannable threats because some of it's Checks and Counters are very popular in usage. Heatran is a very popular pokemon that can completely shut down any move that Genesect can try to do. While this sounds nice, U-Turning out to a check that suddenly threatens Heatran kills it's effectiveness in the long run. It's not very hard to switch from Genesect to Tyranitar or Gyarados. Ban
Deoxys-S - Unlike the other two in the Suspect Testing, Deoxys-S shouldn't be banned for now. As of now Deoxys-S has it's Speed, hazard support, and movepool backing up it's spot on OU. Deoxys-S boosts the best speed in the OU meta, outspeeding Timid Scarf Rotom-W. Being able to avoid Taunts and reliably being able to send out at least one Entry Hazard can make the difference in a battle. Speaking of Hazards, Deoxys-S' ability to send as many Entry Hazards before dying can strike fear into a team. Teams will be forced to run Defog, Rapid Spin, or a Magic Bouncer in order to keep hazards away. Deoxys-S also has a movepool that could stretch into infinity, giving it a niche for a Wallbreaker set or a Mixed Attacking set.
However, unlike Genesect and Mega-Lucario, Deoxys-S has a lot of problems going for it. With the introduction to a buffed Defog, many users shifted towards Scizor and Excadrill for their ability to reliable discard hazards off the field. This could be cured with Taunt but it will mame Deoxys-S' survivability in the long run due to Excadrill STAB Earthquake or Scizor STAB U-turn. Also unlike in Generation 5, Deoxys-S' quirky movesets with Cosmic Power and etc. won't work as effectively. Generation 6 has adopted the idea of bulky attackers or stall teams that can Phaze or be Unaware of any niche move that Deoxys-S might be holding. It's still questionable as being able to set Entry Hazards in the most reliable way gives it attention. Maybe in the future this will be given more insight as to the future of this speed runner. Abstain
Lucario isn't without it's problems however. Mega-Lucario doesn't have enough speed to compete with Scarf'd users like Genesect or Terrakion. This however can be cured with either Sticky Web support from Smeargle or Galvantula, or it's two priority moves in the form of Vacuum Wave and Bullet Punch. He also has his own problems when his sets are discovered such as Goodra for the Special Set and Quagsire for a Physical Set. M-Luca does have Counters and Checks but they are few and far between. Worse is that most if not all of M-Luca's Checks and Counters are very uncommon and gimmicky. Nine times out of Ten, your Assault Vest Goodra isn't gonna be able to do much aside from stopping a +2 Nasty Plot Lucario from Sweeping. Ban
Genesect - I'll be brief with this one. Genesect is basically a watered-down version of Mega Lucario in many respects due to their shared "surprise factor", Power, and it's ability to outclass other effective Leads/U-turners. What Genesect does is simple. Become unpredictable and lose because you didn't know that Genesect was carrying Giga Drain, Blaze Kick, or even Explosion. With it's download ability pushing it over the edge there is no point into users other potentially good candidates for leads like Greninja, Terrakion, or even Rotom-H.
Genesect is noticeably more crippled than other bannable threats because some of it's Checks and Counters are very popular in usage. Heatran is a very popular pokemon that can completely shut down any move that Genesect can try to do. While this sounds nice, U-Turning out to a check that suddenly threatens Heatran kills it's effectiveness in the long run. It's not very hard to switch from Genesect to Tyranitar or Gyarados. Ban
Deoxys-S - Unlike the other two in the Suspect Testing, Deoxys-S shouldn't be banned for now. As of now Deoxys-S has it's Speed, hazard support, and movepool backing up it's spot on OU. Deoxys-S boosts the best speed in the OU meta, outspeeding Timid Scarf Rotom-W. Being able to avoid Taunts and reliably being able to send out at least one Entry Hazard can make the difference in a battle. Speaking of Hazards, Deoxys-S' ability to send as many Entry Hazards before dying can strike fear into a team. Teams will be forced to run Defog, Rapid Spin, or a Magic Bouncer in order to keep hazards away. Deoxys-S also has a movepool that could stretch into infinity, giving it a niche for a Wallbreaker set or a Mixed Attacking set.
However, unlike Genesect and Mega-Lucario, Deoxys-S has a lot of problems going for it. With the introduction to a buffed Defog, many users shifted towards Scizor and Excadrill for their ability to reliable discard hazards off the field. This could be cured with Taunt but it will mame Deoxys-S' survivability in the long run due to Excadrill STAB Earthquake or Scizor STAB U-turn. Also unlike in Generation 5, Deoxys-S' quirky movesets with Cosmic Power and etc. won't work as effectively. Generation 6 has adopted the idea of bulky attackers or stall teams that can Phaze or be Unaware of any niche move that Deoxys-S might be holding. It's still questionable as being able to set Entry Hazards in the most reliable way gives it attention. Maybe in the future this will be given more insight as to the future of this speed runner. Abstain
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As unpredictable as Genesect might be seem, I think thats not the problem. Even if Genesect is predictable, with that I mean you know its set, it will be still a problem to handle it. Scarf Genesect has, the moment it is send in, a free pseudo-dragon dance on it. It forces people to put heatran in your team to "counter" it. That shouldn't sound like Heatran is a bad pokemon or Genesect is the only reason to run it but it forces you to run centain sets, making Heatran easier to predict. Aspecially since Dugtrio has been one of Genesect's favorite partners which traps and kills most Heatran. A really good reason to run u-turn to savely bring in your check.
I have used Genesect a lot and I have never felt so cheap on using a pokemon like with Genesect. As much as this isn't an argument, I believe people can relate seeing that Special Move nerf and steel typ "nerf" didn't really hurt Genesect at all.
I have used Genesect a lot and I have never felt so cheap on using a pokemon like with Genesect. As much as this isn't an argument, I believe people can relate seeing that Special Move nerf and steel typ "nerf" didn't really hurt Genesect at all.
Good Pokemon should be problematic to handle, in some respect, due to its unpredictablity (and Genesect is not unpredictable enough unless it runs niche moves and sets), immunities, supporting moves, bulk, coverage, and power, but it should be balanced out with notable weaknesses that keep it within the realm of OU. Rotom-W is problematic to handle, even though it is one of the most predictable (in terms of its moveset) of the Gen 6 OU meta.
Genesect does not "force" anyone to run Heatran. It is arguable better this Gen, with perma Rain gone, and it checks other things such as Talonflame and Ferrothorn, and act as a semi-check to Gengar and Thundurus-I. Certainly, one can say that the ability to check Genesect is an incentive to run Heatran and it does influence decisions in team construction, but it does not really "force" one to do it.
Genesect presence does put pressure on team construction. Certainly, no one would want to run a team with 3 Ice Weakness, 2 Fire Weaknesses, and 2 U-Turn weaknesses.
Not in this meta:
I have used Genesect a lot and I have never felt so cheap on using a pokemon like with Genesect. As much as this isn't an argument, I believe people can relate seeing that Special Move nerf and steel typ "nerf" didn't really hurt Genesect at all.[/quote]Genesect's partners said:
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Is the Scarf/E-Belt Genesect difficult to play against from the perspective of a HO player? To put it another way, does Genesect itself and/or with its usual partners, unduly hinder HO to the extent that a highly skilled player with a good HO team would require extraordinary prediction or hax to prevail?
Gothitelle was BL in Gen V because Shadow tag which until 9th August wasn't relea. Frisk Gothitelle is technically NU.
About the suspects, for what i learn:
-Lucarionite: Ban. Mega Lucario is too strong for the tier. Has three strong priority options, one of them bypasses other priority moves ike Brave Bird Talonflame.
Physical Lucario: Sweords Dance//Close Combat/Hi Jump Kick//Crunch/Bullet Punch/Extremespeed/Stone Edge/Ice Punch/Earthquake (2 of them)
Special Lucario: Nasty Plot//Aura Sphere//Vaccum Wave/Focus Blast/Dark Pulse/Shadow Ball/Flash Cannon/Psychic/Dragon Pulse
And there are options liked Mixed Lucario, 4 Attack Physical, 4 Attacks Special.
-Genesect: Ban. Genesect is the msot powerful U-turn users which has a 120 Base Attack, and can have a Download boost or even being EV'd in Attack.
Genesect has various sets: Choice Scarf, Shift Gear Physical, Choice Band, Choice Specs. His movepool consists of Shift Gear, Blaze Kick, Extremespeed (only learned for Red Genesect), Hone Claws, Magic Coat, Rock Polish, Thunder Wave, Reflect, Light Screen, U-turn, Flamethrower, Thunderbolt, Ice Beam, Bug Buzz, Flash Cannon, Energy Ball, Dark Pulse X-Scissor, Iron Head, Shadow Claw.
Deoxys-S: OU. It's very underrated but deserves no ban. It's LO set is manageable by various pokemon that are not weak by some of his common attacks and has acceptable defense to take a Psycho Boost (and if they surivve, his SpA gets murdered). In that aspect, Deoxys-S is like Talonflame, with Flying priority in exchange of a bit lower speed (but very high nonetheless).
As a hazard setters, it's almost guaranteed to get a hazard unless you use Prankster Taunt or a Magic Bouncer only if you use it as a lead. Even though no Defog can switch directly into it because a high risk of Taunt, it can get killed easily and remove the hazards when it's down. Or put yopur own Stealth Rock, using Rapid Spin like MBlastoise, Starmie, Forretress, Tentacruel, Donphan, Avallug, Hitmontop, and specially Excadrill, for what I remember. And various Defoggers like Charizard (rare), Aerodactyl (rare), Articuno (gimmicky), Zapdos, Moltres, Dragonite (uncommon but effective), Mew (uncommon), Crobat (uncommon), Scizor (uncommon), Skarmory, Flygon (uncommone), Salamence (rare), Latias, Latios (uncommon), Empoleon, Staraptor (rare), Honchkrow (Rare), Togekiss (uncommon), Yanmega (rare), Gliscor (uncommon), Braviary (uncommon), Mandibuzz (the most common).
Exist another alternative, trying to switch less, put moves like Bug Bite Scizor, (Bug Buzz genesect), avoid using Choice items and use LO + 4 Attacks if they're fragile, Expert Belt `4 Attacks if they have a lot of supper effective coverage, and Leftovers/Assault Vest/Lum Berry + 4 Attacks if they are sturdy, putting sets like
Rotom-W@Leftovers/Chesto Berry
Ability: Levitate: Nature: Bold
Ev: 252 Hp 132 Def, 128 SpA Moves
Thunderbolt
Hydro Pump
Will-o-wisp
Pain Split/Rest/Volt Switch.
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About Mega Lucario:
There's something "off" about the Genesect U-turn arguments. I think the main points appear to be that it's powerful and provides free momentum. I'm going to address the free momentum part first. Isn't "free momentum" the entire point of using U-turn/Volt Switch on anything that learns it? To me, the argument doesn't hold up because it can be applied to anything with access to those moves. Elaborate to me what makes Genesect so special in this regard. And don't say "it's powerful" because we shouldn't be strangers to strong U-turns/Volt Switches. Look at Scizor, Rotom-W, and Thundurus.
It's stronger, faster and has great coverage to force switches. Anything weak to U-turn must choose between dying and giving away momentum and anything weak to fire, ice or steel is threatened out or risk KO. Even if your opponent predicts U-Turn and stays in, Gene gets out free of charge and they bring in the appropriate wall/pivot. Then Gene comes back out safely later and you start all over again.
Edit: and with the right download it hits absurdly hard.
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Those other Pokemon don't have Download and don't hit as hard. And they also lack Genesect's unpredictability.
Hell, if it can't use its Download, a Choiced Genesect can attack its weakness with a boosted physical move THEN switch into a better one.
Well, the weakness to U-Turn can be somewhat remedied through team construction. Stuff like Greninja, Espeon, Latios fall to U-Turn, Lando-I fails to Ice Beam, but they can at least potentially sacrifice itself to confirm whether Genesect is Scarfed. Gengar's sub isn't broken by the Special Scarf U-Turn and Thundurus-I has priority T-Wave, and those are viable fast glass cannon options that at least hinder its ability to sweep. (Gengar is practical KOed by Iron Head or by any neutral strong priority move for that matter. Genesect being locked into Iron Head, after it revealed that it outsped a Gengar, isn't that bad.) One way of dealing with Genesect is to ensure that half your team wouldn't be KOed by a Download boosted Flamethrower or Ice Beam. You may need to sac a Fire or Ice weak Pokemon to deal with the Scarf, but at least can make it more difficult to clean-up against you if you manage your Fire, Ice, and Bug weaknesses in your preliminary team building. Being weak to Bug, Fire, and to a lesser extent Ice* is still bad, regardless of Genesect.
* Ice Beam has a fairly low distribution.
Greninja, Genesect, and Kyurem-B get STAB or pseudo-STAB from it
Starmie, Deoxys-S, Manaphy, Goodra, Latios are respectable attackers that can run it, although in the latter case, it is quite redundant and prefer Surf or Thunderbolt as its coverage move and a utility move, in addition to its STAB and Psyshock.
TTar, Blissey, Clefable, and Tentacruel can use it, and also stuff like Milotic, Vaporean, and Politoed. And Suicune if it wants to forfeit its CroCune set.
Certainly, more Pokemon would be viable if Genesect was removed. Ice Beam's premium relative to its inferior HP Ice has dramatically increased this Gen due to HP Ice's harsh nerf causing it to lose valuable KOs in contrast to Ice Beam's minor nerf. Would the metagame be "better" if one can run multiple Pokemon weak to Ice without the threat of Genesect sweeping you with a Choice-locked Download boosted Ice Beam?
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Most Genesect are scarfed anyway, and leaving in your Pokemon just to confirm what will probably be true isn't really a very good trade off.
I'm not sure what your trying to prove with gengar and Thundurus, Not all Genesect sets are mainly meant for sweeping, just shift gear and rock polish, which don't get locked since they don't carry choice items. Scarf gene is mainly used to grab momentum, and revenge kill if necessary, it isn't supposed to be used as a sweeper. If you are going to sweep with Scarf gene, you'll probably do it late game, to take out weakened mons.
The last part of your argument just shows how dangerous gene is. You have to ensure that half your team can take fire, ice and bug moves just for Genesect. You have to sack Pokemon just to make it difficult for Gene to clean up. You don't seem to be arguing against Genesect, just pointing out how centralising it is.
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I suppose my intention was to show that through careful team building and playing Genesect can more tractable. Sometimes keep it in to confirm may be the best option; sometimes switch in to a Genesect check is. It depends on how much one values the Pokemon Genesect is attacking in a given situation, and it is a rather tactical decision.
I suppose one could switch "Genesect" for "Greninja" and replace "Fire" with "Dark", not to mention Greninja usually has the luxury of switching moves. Having a fire weakness is also bad against Heatran, Talonflame, and Charizard X/Y , not mention being burned for a Physical attacker. Gen 6 Physically Defensive Rotom-W is also "centralizing" since it punishes non-fire physical attackers.
Well, Scizor can be centralizing too but it wasn't banned. Tell if running a Blissey, Gengar, Mamoswine, and Tyranitar on the same team would be a good idea in Gen 5.
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