Project XY RU Research Week #3

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Approved by Molk
OP stolen from Mazz
Taken from HotnCold

RESEARCH WEEK #1

Keep the following things in mind during every Research Group:

• Be open-minded, don't just say something is terrible and walk away; look at its stats, movepool, and typing and think something up!
• Feel free to theorymon early in the research period, but make it clear you're doing so. Later in the period though, you will be expected to back up your posts with hard evidence like logs, actual sets, perhaps even teams.
• Just because an analysis has been done for a Pokemon doesn't mean there isn't more to explore; it's very likely that something has gone unnoticed.
• Do not post in this thread complaining about the Pokemon I choose and / or suggesting ones we should do for future weeks. Feel free to VM / PM me these suggestions, but don't expect me to always listen to you.

A few things to clarify:

• Early period means the first three days of the research week, so let's keep the theorymoning to a minimum after. The late period refers to the last four days of the research week, where raw evidence and discussion should become the basis of the thread.
• Sign-Ups close Wednesday night, so be sure to sign up before they close!
• The prizes for Research Week have been decided; winning a research week will grant you half-ops on our IRC channel, #rarelyused.
• You must post a ladder ranking in order to win the above prizes.

This Week's Research Pokemon:

Gurdurr | Seismitoad | Granbull
How useful are these Pokemon in XY RU? What sets can they run effectively? What gives them trouble? What advantages do they have over other Pokemon? How well do they work in the metagame? If you have anything to say about any of these Pokemon, please post about them! It doesn't matter if you've used them or have just faced them in battle, anything is fine (but please, do try them). Just be sure to back up your posts with good competitive reasoning. Remember, discussion is not limited to this topic, you are encouraged to talk about these Pokemon in #rarelyused as well!

The Research Group Challenge:

In order to participate you must do the following:

• Post here with a fresh alt and the name(s) of the Pokemon you will be using.
• Use at least one of the Pokemon being researched.
• Post your experiences with the Pokemon you're using, participate in the discussion!
• Post logs of this Pokemon in action against other teams - don't just tell us, show us!
• Remember to submit your ranking!

The first stage of the challenge will be very relaxed so theorymon will be allowed as long as its backed up by good reasoning. During the later stage, discussion will be expected to be backed up by hard evidence, such as teams, actual sets, and logs. The winner of the challenge will be the person who has the highest ladder ranking on the Pokemon Showdown RU ladder on the alt they registered at the time the challenge ends. Prizes are currently being discussed with higher powers, so hang tight while I find something worth your guys' attention.

 

[MikeDawg]

oooops. thought i posted this earlier. Turns out smogon was down <<<



cuteflounder get on that Seismitoad

Anyway, I had previously used Granbull on a tr team and despite it's awesome coverage, I was dissapointed in its inability to obtain needed 1hkos, even against offensive threats. I think that it's real niche lies in a bulkier set to take advantage of Intimidate and it's relatively rare typing, especially for a defensive mon. Except for Cobalion, it can strongly check every single fighting type in the tier weezing-style

-1 252+ Atk Life Orb Reckless Hitmonlee High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Granbull: 144-172 (37.5 - 44.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

^Good benchmark. Given its lack of reliable recovery, a bit more bulk investment could offer significantly more longevity. Wish support is also befenifical, obviously, though the overlap between granbull and aroma and to a lesser extent alo is troubling.

It doesn't even really need a ton of offensive investment given how naturally strong it is (252+ attack play rough does over 200% to hitmonlee)

Play Rough/maybe Earthquake could put a dent in anythnig that granbull hopes to wall.



May as well jump on the challenge as well.

alt: granbull maybe
mon: granbull probably. maybe gurdurr too
rank: didn't make the alt yet

 

[cuteflounder]

I have had lots of experience using defensive Seismitoad and it's able to deal with a lot of the same things that defensive Rhyperior does with the added bonus of handling most water types. Although it doesn't rival Rhyperior's raw bulk or power, I think Seismitoad's unique attributes make it a helpful addition to a team that wants all of the aforementioned attributes.

Anyways, I will be using all 3 mons with the alt of TEAM MUSCLE

 

[MikeDawg]

Sittin at 1130 rn with 7-3 (3 because stuff like confuse ray magmortar exist http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/rususpecttest-137696614)

This team is weird (and bad) af.

thus far, gurdurr is the weakest link. I was using it as my win condition... can't do that. Theoretically, it should be able to set up on lots of stuff and sweep, but there are so many things that take nothing from drain punch, or that can still put a huge dent in it despite its bulk. Guts is nice, but it gets worn down super fast by any status, especially when it starts out so strangely weak. I would attribute its uselessness moreso to the team it is placed in, rather than a complete lack of potential, but this was my experience

I've been using avest granbull. it's ok. seismitoad is ok. granbull is great at being destroyed by crits. Altogether, nothing too interesting from what I've experienced.

 

[Mymble]

I am using the alt Tea and Crumpets. I have only played two game so far with Seismitoad. Using it on rain, it works nicely with Moltres as it can switch into Rock- and Electric-type moves while Moltres can take Grass-type moves. I have using Sleep Talk on my Moltres just to nail Amoonguss. Because I haven't played that much yet I don't have any replays.

 

[JMcFizz]

Hey my alt is Hilejah and I'm gonna work with Seismitoad. (but Granbull looks like it has some promise as a physical wall ~ looking at you hitmonlee)

Seismitoad is a pretty versatile mon, but has terrible stats. The most impressive looking is the 105 HP mixed with 75/75 defenses and that's mediocre as far as bulk goes. A defensive SR set is viable if you choose to invest in one over the other (physical), but that has a hard time competing with Rhyperior. It's saving grace for that set is the ability Water Absorb, to get 25% health back compared to Rhyperior's 3x weakness (Solid Rock y'all).

I looked at a different ability as the inspiration for the set I'm running: Swift Swim. At base 74 Speed, it seems underwhelming. That is until you double it after a rain dance. With 252 and a neutral nature the toad hits 247 Speed, which doubled is 494, outspeeding every unboosted mon in the tier. The speed problem can be solved by slapping Rain Dance on an offensive set.

Next was the choice of which side of the spectrum to attack from. With 95 base Atk, it can be formidable, but I opted for the base 85 SpAtk. With max investment and a life orb and rain, it actually pulls it's weight, being able to 2HKO a large part of the tier. (calcs to come later, I did them but didnt save) Basically a 1-turn mid-game setup sweeper with decent coverage between Hydro Pump, Earth Power, and Sludge Bomb (chosen over sludge wave cuz 5% power difference compared to 20% additional chance to poison), can finish an offensive team that doesn't have strong enough priority, or put a big dent in most special walls in the tier. Will post again later with my team and calcs!

 

[Explorer]

I can decide on a Pokemon and Alt later, but for now, some brief remarks on each:

Gurdurr--I immediately proceed to compare this thing to Throh (which I have been using on the Suspect ladder to collect data on Throh usage and hopefully write an analysis). They are very similar, except that Gurdurr's bulk is physically biased, whereas Throh has the same Defense and Special Defense, and Gurdurr has Mach Punch. Gurdurr lacks the Leftovers recovery and access to Circle Throw, but there isn't much else that differentiates the two, except for one thing: Gurdurr gets Drain Punch. This helps to offset the lack of Leftovers, and Iron Fist can boost that further. The main STAB on all common Gurdurr sets.

Gurdurr also shares some characteristics with Hariyama. Hariyama carries much more immediate power, especially since it can use a Flame/Toxic Orb and Fake Out to easily activate Guts. Gurdurr can't pull this off as it is pretty much mandatory to include Eviolite on it.

Seismitoad--The one I've used the most in RU and in general, Seismitoad's wide move pool provides it with a lot of options. It can set rain, act as a lead, or as a tank (the AV sets are my favorites). Although most Seismitoad I see run Water Absorb, its access to Poison Touch works well for it too since it gets access to Knock Off (alongside a few other less important D.C. moves). Its offenses are a bit weak for a sweeper without rain support, so I usually use it as a tank. That being said, a rain team featuring Seismitoad, Kabutops, and Escavalier could be interesting.

Granbull--I've hardly used this thing, ever, but it looks pretty cool on paper, especially with its typing and wealth of coverage options. I see Granbull working well on Bulky Offense or Sticky Web teams alongside other brute firepower Pokemon such as Specs Exploud, CB Braviary (or Tailwind LO), and CB Emboar. It also gets Heal Bell, so perhaps a specially defensive set with Intimidate is worth testing….

There isn't much to compare Granbull to since it's the only physically based Fairy-type in the tier. Hitmontop comes to mind since they both have Intimidate and can afford to take some hits from both ends of the spectrum as a result, but in reality their roles are so different otherwise it basically comes down to 1) your need for a spinner, and 2) who provides more beneficial coverage?

 

[Explorer]

I will just re-post so all of my "data" from laddering is by itself in one post.

Alt: MonopolyFTW
Pokes: Seismitoad & Granbull
Ladder Ranking: 1246
WLT: 11-1-0
COIL: 921

Replays

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/rususpecttest-138620226
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/rususpecttest-138618578
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/rususpecttest-138802615
This one was a close match that revolved around Heliolisk pivoting in and out, in attempts to avoid Fletchinder's path to sweeping my team. I did not expect Accelgor to have Sludge Bomb.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/rususpecttest-138992863
This one showed Granbull attempt to punch holes in a team, but furthermore, it shows how Hitmonlee complements my offensive core by giving me a sweep from a 5-2 deficit.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/rususpecttest-139166656
Why everyone needs to use Hitmonlee

Feedback on Others' Posts

Cuteflounder:

I have had lots of experience using defensive Seismitoad and it's able to deal with a lot of the same things that defensive Rhyperior does with the added bonus of handling most water types. Although it doesn't rival Rhyperior's raw bulk or power, I think Seismitoad's unique attributes make it a helpful addition to a team that wants all of the aforementioned attributes.

Anyways, I will be using all 3 mons with the alt of TEAM MUSCLE

In particular, Seismitoad has Scald with a chance of burns (and just because a Pokemon has a type advantage over it doesn't mean it isn't afraid of getting burned) and has access to Knock Off to swat away items. Seismitoad also has the option of going mixed, unlike Rhyperior, who can only viably use physical moves.

Remarks on Granbull

Granbull is a surprisingly decent tank, especially with Intimidate essentially giving it +1 Defense. With defenses bolstered, I am free to just focus on attacking. Each move on the set has had its merits, and I do not seem to miss the more popular Earthquake, which I took out for Crunch. I might consider switching to Choice Band later, but this seems to be working fine for now.

Remarks on Seismitoad

Seismitoad has functioned as a utility mon in my case, running Stealth Rock and Knock Off. It can usually set up rocks at least once in the match due to its good bulk and typing, on top of Heliolisk being able to pivot into it with Specs Volt Switch. And when all else fails, Seismitoad can try to fish for burns with Scald, which comes into handy at times, especially against physical attackers such as Escavalier.

Team

Granbull (M) @ Assault Vest
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 184 HP / 252 Atk / 20 SpD / 52 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Play Rough
- Fire Punch
- Crunch
- Ice Punch

Seismitoad (M) @ Leftovers
Ability: Water Absorb
EVs: 252 HP / 224 Atk / 32 Spe
Brave Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Knock Off
- Earthquake
- Scald

Delphox (F) @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Blaze
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
IVs: 0 Atk
Timid Nature
- Fire Blast
- Grass Knot
- Psychic
- Switcheroo

Amoonguss (M) @ Black Sludge
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 212 HP / 252 SpD / 44 Spe
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Spore
- Giga Drain
- Sludge Bomb
- Foul Play

Hitmonlee (M) @ Liechi Berry
Ability: Unburden
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Endure
- Reversal
- Mach Punch
- Stone Edge

Heliolisk (M) @ Choice Specs
Ability: Dry Skin
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Thunderbolt
- Volt Switch
- Grass Knot
- Dark Pulse

 

[Molk]

Alright so this thread is p. dead and i want to spark up some activity so imma post =).

As many of you might already know from what i've said on irc I've used Gurdurr quite a bit in the past week or 2, and contrary to what Mikedawg i've actually been impressed with how it's done: Gurdurr is a pretty damn solid bulky offensive Pokemon at the moment.

I said pretty much all i had to say about Gurdurr in my viability post a few days ago, so i'll just quote that here since if i typed up something new here it'd basically be the same info reworded.

Just gonna throw in a little extra support for Gurdurr here. I've been trying it and other random, non hitmonchan Fighting-types out for a little while and i can confirm that its pretty effective in the current metagame. Its physical bulk is excellent (not absurd, only doublade reaches absurd) with Eviolite factored in and still decent even if Knocked Off, giving it many opportunities to switch in and check various Pokemon such as Cobalion, Zoroark, and Sharpedo much more effectively than say the frail Hitmonlee ever could. After a Bulk Up boost breaking Gurdurr with physical attacks is like trying to punch through a brick wall, and because of Drain Punch it has quite an easy time keeping itself healthy when attempting a sweep. The Knock Off buff is of course nice for Gurdurr since it struggled with Ghost- and Psychic-types in BW quite a bit, and now its gifted with whats essentially an 100 BP Dark-type move on the first hit to stop those (Knock Off also means Gurdurr can knock off things like CB and Life Orb to make taking attacks a bit easier, not just for itself, but for the rest of its team). Guts is a really nice ability for Gurdurr that lets it absorb Toxic, Burn, and Paralysis, and turn them from a crippling issue to a powerful weapon, making it hit even harder. Lastly, Gurdurr has the very nice advantage of being a powerful offensive threat that doesn't care about being slow, which is a pretty good quality to have in a metagame where Sticky Web Shuckle is running far and wide, especially when combined with decently powerful priority in the form of Mach Punch. Gurdurr is definitely an underrated threat in the current meta imo and i wouldn't be opposed to promoting it to somewhere in the upper B ranks.

As for the other two, i don't have much experience with either of them, but they both look pretty interesting and i know other users that have experience with them (spirit for seismitoad, trop with granbull). I'll just say this though: Granbull isn't just a defensive mon, and i'd encourage anyone trying it in this thread to try out a CB set as well. Granbull has multiple opportunities to switch in and fire off nuclear play roughs thanks to its typing and ability, and it has all the coverage it needs to get past pretty much anything that resists, set import below!

Hide

Granbull @ Choice Band
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 212 HP / 252 Atk / 44 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Play Rough
- Earthquake
- Fire Punch
- Ice Punch

 

[Explorer]

What are the 44 Speed EVs for on the Granbull set? I might use that EV spread for my Granbull--currently it's just 252 HP/252 Atk+/4 SpD...

 

[Molk]

What are the 44 Speed EVs for on the Granbull set? I might use that EV spread for my Granbull--currently it's just 252 HP/252 Atk+/4 SpD...

The Speed evs on Granbull let it outpace minimum Speed Registeel, that way you can 2HKO it on the switch/KO a weakened one with EQ without having to worry about attacks/paralysis. On top of that it also lets you outspeed minimum speed Tangrowth and Druddigon :).

 

[Explorer]

Yes I could use that. I'm switching Granbull's EVs to

184 HP/252 Atk+/20 SpD/52 Spe

184 HP hits a Stealth Rock number.
252 Atk+ maxes Granbull's attacking power.
20 SpD was leftover to help make a bit more use out of my Assault Vest.
52 Spe--outspeeds 0 Spe Registeel, Tangrowth, and Druddigon, plus a few more points past that in case any of them opt to speed creep.

Thanks Molk.

 

[Ningildo]

Well, I used Grandbull a while back and I'd like to say it's pretty cool at spreading paralysis with Thunder Wave. It can stop every Fighting type not using Poison Jab and actually has offensive presence, so it's an alternative to Aroma if you want a more offensively inclined Fairy-type and has pretty nice options in EQ, CC, Wild Charge and others (although CC on a defensive set is meh). CB can work too, but it needs speed control support (SW/paralysis/TR) to do so. Honestly, though, it's best niche is a physically defensive Fairy that can hurt stuff. It's lack of recovery sucks a lot regardless ;;

Haven't used the other two, so no comment on that.

 

[JMcFizz]

Awk didn't know when the ladder was gonna reset... so I guess there's that.

Anyway, the combination that I worked with for Seismitoad was pairing a special Seismitoad with a special Sharpedo. With Seismitoad clearing the way (having similar checks and counters), and a few layers of spikes (I also ran Accelgor) Sharpedo had an easier time sweeping.

Also here's a replay I saved from a while back (sorry I didn't save many new ones) but it's to show Seismitoad finishing up a game (a bit lower on the ladder with a meh opponent).
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/rususpecttest-138501650

Turn 10 is the relevant one for the Toad Wonder, where I come in on Jolteon. People rarely use a non-Stab non super-effective move when predicting a switch (dark pulse?), so you either get a free turn from an electric move, or predict their switch (depends how good you're feeling). I'm gonna write that team up into an RMT probably later today so I won't explain the whole thing, you can find it there. Toad's role on that team is to punish offensive teams with a Stab in the rain Hydro Pump, which puts a dent in evvvvvverything. I'm too lazy to do calcs but it comes close to 2HKOing the whole tier (w/o hazards, but I kept them up) bar aromatisse and Slowking (who is taken out by dark pulse Sharpedo).

Thanks guys for reading and participating, I think this thread and idea is one of the best ways to keep the metagame fresh and encouraging vets and newbies alike to try new sets/ find new niches for pokes. Can't wait for the next one, even if I have to try and ladder past Molk.


Edit: RMT is now up

 

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Looks like im the winner (i should post thoughts) lol
Some mod please lock this and week 4 will be up whenever i can figure the third mon