I remember Healing Wish Jirachi being used a lot on Khan vs the World Teams. It was really great for giving M-Khangaskhan a new leash on life, and another shot at sweeping the opposing team. Are the remaining sweepers in OU capable of murdering the rest of the opposing team with a Healing Wish? Or is Wish/Heal Bell sufficient for the current sweepers?
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Other XY OU Viability Ranking Thread (V2) (Last update on post #5189)
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Because two words: Aegislash and Knock Off. A pokemon and move that I consider suspect-worthy.
I don't think Breloom adapted to the metagame well at all and B- is also too high for it. You just said why it was nerfed, and it didn't get anything new from BW at all. It's not nearly the pokemon that it was in BW.
But on to Jirachi: Every team has a powerful Fire type or Ground type to hit Aegislash, which by coincidence also hit Jirachi equally as hard which makes it prepared for by default. It's Choice Scarf set isn't the momentum grabber it was last gen because Aegislash is on 1/4 of teams. I guess it can still paraflinch, but with so many Aegislash and Rotom-W and Conkeldurr, I just don't see it being effective. I agree that an entire drop is drastic, I would at least move it to C+ or even C rank.
A few other changes I think should happen:
Honchkrow for removal: Honchkrow is outclassed as an offensive flying type by Talonflame, Mega-Pinsir and Staraptor. On bird spam teams, it doesn't have a place among those three and the obligatory defogger. I don't remember the justification for adding it to D rank, but what niche does it have? I mean, Dark and Flying dual STABs are neat along with Moxie, but why use that over Talonflame or one of the other birds? What does Honchkrow do that one of those three can't?
Raikou for B-: I'll just echo the Victory Road post for this, probably. It distinguishes itself from Thundurus with it's superior bulk and lack of Stealth Rock weakness. Thanks to it's great base 115 speed and decent power it can clean up late, and thanks to Volt Switch it can gain momentum and revenge kill. It can also run a pretty effective Calm Mind set. While it has a lot of trouble breaking through bulky walls like Chansey and Hippowdon, it's a pretty good pokemon that can do a few different sets.
Gothitelle for B-: This was brought up a few times, Gothitelle is still Gothitelle, and Shadow Tag is still Shadow Tag. Gothitelle is great for removing various counters from play. Manaphy needs Mega-Venusaur gone? Send in Gothitelle and give it a Specs Psychic. Manaphy or CroCune needs Chansey removed too? Trick it a Choice Specs. It works extremely well with Mega-Tyranitar, Tyranitar lures in Fighting types and physical walls for Gothitelle to KO or Trick a Choice item. Sadly, Gothitelle has poor base stats all around, meaning it needs a boost from a choice item to be effective. Still, Shadow Tag is an amazing ability and having a Gothitelle in the game forces your opponent to play safely.
Honchkrow can break through Heatran and T-tar with Superpower (unlike Talonflame), doesn't take up your Mega Slot (unlike Mega Pinsir) and has powerful priority (unlike Staraptor). Moxie allows it to setup without taking a turn which is where Mega Pinsir and Talonflame struggle sometimes. It outpowers all of them, which is amplified even more after a Moxie boost. It only really has problems with its frailty and its below average speed lets it down against faster Dark-resists. Fortunately the latter are actually pretty rare, so Sucker Punch usually gets the job done. If anything I'd like to see it move up, it's just incredibly underrated which is why it is ranked so low and people like you don't see how good it actually is.
It gained improved coverage by way of a 90BP Rock Tomb, which almost entirely mitigates the LS debuff, a marked drop in usage of Celebi, its primary counter, and the ability to check or counter several top threats with its toxic heal set (Bisharp, Rotom-W) as well as switch-in opportunities against OU's premier Knock Off spammers (see http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/mirror-mola-semi-stall-peaked-6-1959.3501374/#post-5294937 for an example), whilst also counter-intuitively handling Aegislash well. The Spore nerf also hasn't hurt as much as expected due to the lack of grass types in OU. If anything, it does to be higher than B-.
It also has a decent special attack so things like skarmory can be lured in with a heat wave or gliscor with icy wind to get a free moxie boost. It should definitely be higher ranked.
focus sash rock tomb/spore/bullet seed/mach punch breloom is the only set breloom should run
and it's dirty as hell
and it's dirty as hell
Breloom is a very weird pokemon. All of its stats are very bad, except for the attack, which is amazing. It has an amazing damaging move in the form of bullet seed, but no speed to use it most of the time. But it has one of the best priority moves in the game to kind of make up for it. It has great offensive coverage boosted by technican, but the bad bulk, bad speed and horrible defensive type means it's checked by a lot of things. But it has the mighty spore, a move that literally has a clause to nerf it due to how broken it is. It can be blocked by grass pokemon, but pretty much nothing else. And it can be still pretty powerful even against grass pokemon since it can bluff and hit hard with some of its moves on the switch.
It's a very tricky pokemon to use. It requires some balls, good prediction and lots of mind games. But it can be devastating and fulfill a lot of useful roles in the right hands. I think B- is pretty fine for it due to how broken it can become with the right match ups. Maybe even B, but certainly not higher than that. C+ is too low for it though, it's not like there is any pokemon who can do the combination of jobs that Breloom does so well.
It's a very tricky pokemon to use. It requires some balls, good prediction and lots of mind games. But it can be devastating and fulfill a lot of useful roles in the right hands. I think B- is pretty fine for it due to how broken it can become with the right match ups. Maybe even B, but certainly not higher than that. C+ is too low for it though, it's not like there is any pokemon who can do the combination of jobs that Breloom does so well.
I prefer Life Orb. Nothing beats being able to OHKO a Greninja lead. And it allows it be great for the entire match, while focus sash only works in the lead.
i never had troubles with the lift orb set, focus sash though works as an amazing revenge killer, he'll spore something and then kill something before dying, basically a 2 for 1 deal
I know right? I railroaded "That damn dog" so friggin hard before I realised he was just spamming XD
But I still feel my points were valid. I only deleted my post so I wouldn't get I nfracted for talking about "that damn dog". Also talking to a spam bot = Derp moment XD
Edit: Why haven't Servines post been removed? He's advertising his YouTube channel for no good reason. I'd hate to Mini-Mod but it's kinda obvious that the links have nothing to do with this thread. (And he hasn't even made a VALID point. Just one line comments which can easily be countered. Just sayin)
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I agree so much. I used to use P2 requently in OU and it did great. It's great defences with Eviolite and nice typing makes it a very good mixed wall, or a defencive or specially defencive wall, too. Really nice coverage, too.Although Knock Off is a thing, you can just switch in a Mega Pokémon to take it then retaliate back. Also, here are some calcs.
252+ Atk Aegislash-Blade Sacred Sword vs. 0 HP / 252 Def Eviolite Porygon2: 136-162 (43.7 - 52%) -- 12.5% chance to 2HKO | You can just wittle it down.
As you can see, pretty darn bulky. Time for more calcs.
+6 252+ Atk Huge Power Azumarill Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 252 Def Eviolite Porygon2: 180-213 (57.8 - 68.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO | You're nearly doomed at this point, so you're just sacking P2 :c
Yep, it takes that.
252 Atk Terrakion Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 252 Def Eviolite Porygon2: 222-264 (71.3 - 84.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO | Discharge paralyze anyone?
Bulk. Just, bulk.
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Focus Blast vs. 0 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Porygon2: 203-239 (65.2 - 76.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO | Ice Beam all the way.
*gasp*
252 SpA Gengar Focus Blast vs. 0 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Porygon2: 132-156 (42.4 - 50.1%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO | Gengar is really frail, so a few Ice Beams or Discharges will do the trick.
My god. Convinced yet?
252 Atk Pure Power Mega Medicham Drain Punch vs. 0 HP / 252 Def Eviolite Porygon2: 234-276 (75.2 - 88.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO | Just Discharge then hope for paralyze, then revenge after P2 dies.
. . .
252+ Atk Life Orb Bisharp Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 252 Def Eviolite Porygon2: 125-148 (40.1 - 47.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO | Discharge paralyze hopefully.
OKAY
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Bisharp Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 252 Def Eviolite Porygon2: 250-294 (80.3 - 94.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO | Have P2 die then hopefully have something to revenge it.
Yeeeeeeeep.
252+ Atk Technician Mega Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 0 HP / 252 Def Eviolite Porygon2: 67-81 (21.5 - 26%) -- 2.7% chance to 4HKO | Just Discharge, I guess.
waht
252 Atk Mega Garchomp Outrage vs. 0 HP / 252 Def Eviolite Porygon2: 135-160 (43.4 - 51.4%) -- 6.6% chance to 2HKO | Ice Beam that thing until it dies.
And, finished.
Now you've seen MORE bulk of P2. I think it should be B or maybe even B+, because everything there couldn't be used in UU. Is there more to be said?
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Everything is perfect. The blatant ignorance of "DO NOT POST ABOUT THIS." The idea Arcanine counters either of those Pokemon. The join date, post count, double post, double shameless plug.
no
Also, a lot of people have been just throwing out random facts that either make no sense or are just wrong. If you have never used a Honchkrow why are you posting about it? Same goes for any Pokemon.
252 Pure Power Mega Medicham HJK vs 252hp 252+def eviotile porygon 2 87.5% chance to ohko
I think one describes the other perfectly.
(quick suggestion, at least QUOTE the post you're replying to. Also the damage calcs look.... Forged. I'll go and Comfirm this now)
Edit: yup. Those are WRONG.
252 Atk Pure Power Mega Medicham High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Eviolite Porygon2: 402-474 (107.4 - 126.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Don't know what damage calculator you used, but I'd suggest changing to Showdowns damage calculator.
Edit: turns out I forgot the nature. So in fact I was wrong. -_-
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To be fair to P2, M-Medicham's High Jump kick is one of if not the strongest attack in the game.
I think the strongest is Shuckle. Not gonna go into the details like. (Hint,Power Trick Rollout.)
Realistically however, I think it would be Choice Band Lickilicky Explosion :P
Okay, realistically speaking, MChans HJK hurts like HELL. Buuuuut most people prefer the healing of Drain Punch instead (Makes sense)
Plus, wouldn't Gardeviors Pixilate Hyper Beam out damage?
So this post stays on topic, remember that Donohan, Florges and Arcanine are blacklisted and thus not allowed to be talked about. Thank you! :)
Eh, not really. You forgot nature.
252 Atk Pure Power Mega Medicham High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Porygon2: 366-432 (97.8 - 115.5%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO (copy pasted from PS calculator)
And as for the Mega Gardevoir hyper beam, using Manaphy as a benchmark
252 Atk Pure Power Mega Medicham High Jump Kick vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Manaphy: 354-417 (103.8 - 122.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Pixilate Mega Gardevoir Hyper Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Manaphy: 381-448 (111.7 - 131.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Holy shit that's actually terrifying. But yeah, let's get back to it.
Mega Cham's HJK is the strongest attack you're likely to see in OU. Other stuff can outdamage, like Mega Garde Hyper Beam or Banded Darmanitan's Flare Blitz, but Hyper Beam is shit and Darm kinda blows (scarf is better anyway.)
Slight nitpicks to this argument:
Mega Pinsir and Mega Gyarados have teh same attack stat, 155
"Perfect Bulk" Isn't the right word to describe him, he does have some nice ghost and dark resistances, but he still isn't THAT bulky. It's not mega tyranitar levels of bulk which you need without recovery, but he has bulky char-x levels of bulk without the recovery. That's why I run only 32 evs in bulk anyway, it's Mega Gyarados's power and flexibility that need to be capitalized here.
Also, you forgot that you must always eliminate thundurus on any team to get a non ground/electric cleaner going. Priority T-wave is sooo annoying gdi.
I'd also like to mention the amount of things this guy can set up on holy crap. Bisharp, Aegislash, a Keldeo locked into a water move (or just set up on it in normal form), you set up on excadrill and conkeldurr in normal form, and the list goes on forever. The amount of things you can set up on between normal and mega is absolutely fantastic.
I definitely support this nomination. Fast electric types are the name of the game in this HO metagame, this and raikou can take a hit from thundurus and not care what it wants to do after that, and just gain momentum with volt switch, set up with CM, or double out to a keldeo/char-y/whatever you have to handle obvious hippo switch-in. You take Brave Birds and you ignore priority T-waves, which are the two main ways anybody revenge kills anything these days. This is what makes Mega manectric (and other fast electrics) so good in the meta right now.
If you're looking for a fast electric type that isn't named thundurus this is about as good as it gets. Mega Man DEFINITELY deserves B+, I just dunno enough about it to make a good argument.
It's also actually not that weak to priority with intimidate and resisting brave birds too. You flamethrower Bisharp, Aegislash, and Mega Mawile, and Tbolt/Volt switch Azumarill (even AV variants take 50%~ from volt switch), cleanly beat Mega Pinsir and Talonflame, and don't care about any other priority user because nothing else is too relevant.
The only thing holding him back his sub-par power, he needs to hit super-effectively to deal any type of decent damage to anything with decent bulk. He just doesn't as hard as I want him to sometimes, which is why he deserves atleast B+, if not A-, because you can't mask his great traits in the meta right now. Great Speed, defeats most methods of revenge killing atm, good coverage, good enough power, great ability, and one of the best volt switchers in the game. B+/A- easily.
For the same exact reasons, raikou should go up there too. While losing flamethrower, he gets a way to blow past Mega Venusaur (extrasensory), a great boosting move in Calm Mind, and no need for a mega slot. Raikout for B+/A-
I'll just echo this post and add on that gothitelle totally shits on stall. Stall is literally just a shining toilet bowl for Gothitelle to crap all over. You switch in, something gets trapped, you kill it with appropriate coverage move (psyshock,tbolt, and shadow ball/random hidden power is enough) or you can Trick your specs away and cripple it entirely.
Mostly somewhat agreeing with this, but it really shouldn't go above C. I think C- is enough for a pokemon like this.
Btw, Talonflame has u-turn and Will-o-Wisp, so tyranitar isn't a problem when it's switching in. Mega Pinsir is better than honchkrow and the mega slot is totally worth it. Staraptor also has QA, which is pretty strong with a CB attached. If you don't like U-turn on raptor, QA is a respectable alternative that it has access to.
Outpowering all of the above is simply not true. Let's use standard Rotom-W as a punching bag:
252+ Atk Life Orb Honchkrow Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Rotom-W: 94-110 (30.9 - 36.1%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Rotom-W: 81-96 (26.6 - 31.5%) -- 18.9% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
but you'd usually just u-turn if a rotom-w is still alive anyway, or Will-o.
252 Atk Choice Band Reckless Staraptor Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Rotom-W: 114-135 (37.5 - 44.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Rotom-W: 84-100 (27.6 - 32.8%) -- 80.1% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
but if Rotom-W is still alive you'd stay normal and use mold breaker eq first.
So while it may outpower Talonflame (Which has more reliable secondary (fire) STAB and whose Brave Birds are priority, loss in power is soooooooo worth it) and Mega Pinsir (Has better set-up move, better speed, more reliable priority), it doesn't even outpower Raptor (which is used for wallbreaking.) Honchkrow is used for wallbreaking, yes, but a smart player will switch around into things like Thundurus or Hippowdon and T-wave to avoid Sucker Punch, (or just flat out sub) or can just whirlwind you out.
So say you did get a moxie boost? Well, the most common dark resists, like Bisharp and Keldeo, can easily take a +1 sucker punch and send you on your way.
+1 252+ Atk Life Orb Honchkrow Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Keldeo: 148-175 (45.8 - 54.1%) -- 5.1% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 252+ Atk Life Orb Honchkrow Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Bisharp: 136-160 (50.1 - 59%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
and
252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Secret Sword vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Honchkrow: 348-411 (86.1 - 101.7%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO
(gauranteed because you need to kill one poke to get moxie boost, (10% recoil from LO) and then sucker punch (20% recoil from LO)
252+ Atk Life Orb Bisharp Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Honchkrow: 305-360 (75.4 - 89.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
(very good chance for the same reasons above)
About bisharp, even though it's actually slower than honch, Bisharp usually run jolly nowadays, and Honchkrow definitely needs Adamant for its wallbreaking purposes. Honchkrow cannot by any means sacrifice the power brought to the table by adamant, but Bisharp can because of defog boost, knock off utility, and overall other roles it performs.
So a smart player (who for some reason is using honckrow/testing honckrow) would have to sucker punch.
So basically, there is still no good reason to actually use this thing.
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The power difference is definitely huge compared to Talonflame. Talonflame struggles to break through any physicall wall, while Honchkrow can often break through with some prior damage from SR.
252+ Atk Life Orb Honchkrow Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Suicune: 177-211 (43.8 - 52.2%) -- 71.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Suicune: 141-166 (34.9 - 41%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
Also, Honchkrow can still switch up moves. That is huge because you're not necessarily forced out after every hit you dish out. Saying that Talonflame doesn't have problems with Tyranitar "because it has U-turn and Will-o-wisp" is ridiculous. not every set runs U-turn, and definitely not every set runs W-o-W. Also, U-turn won't save you from Pursuit, and W-o-W won't stop T-tar from killing you with Stone Edge. Honchkrow on the other hands takes out every T-tar barring Scarf comfortably with Superpower.
Staraptor generally runs CB which means it can't switch up moves. Getting locked into Quick Attack is awful, and it's still laughably weak. The only reasons to run Staraptor over Honchkrow are the better speed, U-turn and Reckless Brave Bird. As a wallbreaker, no chance against Honch.
I don't know what you're on about with Bisharp, Adamant is definitely the preferred nature to give that extra punch to Sucker Punch as well as giving the most extra points in general due to Bisharps high base Attack. Running Jolly makes you comparatively less fast than it would increase your attack. On a more important note, there's no reason to run Jolly. At all. There's nothing between 232 (on the standard Adamant set) and 262 (Jolly max speed) that Bisharp has to outrun. That statement is complete bs and the only reason you tried to make it look true is because Honchkrow can easily tank Bisharps Sucker Punch, outspeeds it and takes it out with Superpower. Bisharp can't even OHKO back with anything, so I don't know what you even were on about.
And yes Keldeo can beat Honchkrow 1 vs 1. So what? It's never gonna be able to come in on Honchkrow because of Brave Bird. Tbh these arguments are pretty biased and almost entirely based on theorymon. Have you even used Honchkrow in OU may I ask? From the condescending note on the end of your post I would conclude you haven't.
I'm getting sick of Srn writing stupidly long posts. He seems to think he is the Pokemon Guru, when in actual fact a lot of his posts are of a low standard. I've noticed that he gets away with it simply because he writes so much that people can not be bothered replying.
On to relevant discussion...
I would like to see Kabutops rise up into the B's. This Pokemon is a staple on rain teams and it has been used very successfully in SPL play.
It has powerful priority, a very well suited boosting move, swift swim, excellent neutral stab coverage and the stats it needs to do some serious damage.
Because of swift swim it can afford to run adamant, making it more powerful than it looks. C is far too low for it.
On to relevant discussion...
I would like to see Kabutops rise up into the B's. This Pokemon is a staple on rain teams and it has been used very successfully in SPL play.
It has powerful priority, a very well suited boosting move, swift swim, excellent neutral stab coverage and the stats it needs to do some serious damage.
Because of swift swim it can afford to run adamant, making it more powerful than it looks. C is far too low for it.
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I agree with the your bisharp argument, but not with honchkrow.
First of all, I'm not entirely sure why we're comparing honchkrow with talonflame with honchkrow since they fulfill different roles, but since we're at it, talonflame easily does revenging and cleaning better than honchkrow, I don't think this is a debatable point. And of course talonflame has trouble with most physical walls, talonflame's base attack is almost the same as skarmory's. But it still doesn't prevent it from doing its job.
Secondly, honchkrow is outclassed by staraptor for the most part. Staraptor sits in a nice speed tier where running choice band means you outrun nearly all defensive mons while hitting them hard, while scarf means you outrun most offensive mons (barring other, faster scarfers) and destroying them. Staraptor also hits harder thanks to reckless (you're going to be using double edge and brave bird for the most part), and doesn't get worn down as easily because most honchkrow run life orb. Staraptor also hits both heatran and ttar (obvious of course, just mentioning that staraptor does this also since you brought it up) Close combat also makes for a better coverage move thanks to no attack drop allowing staraptor to clean with it should the need arise.
The two things honchkrow has over staraptor are strong priority and the ability to hurt aegislash. Staraptor makes up for this by being able to beat rotom-w more reliably thanks to its speed and stronger secondary stab option, which is crucial for double-bird.
Thirdly, with mega-pinsir, how can you say that you are wasting a mega slot? Mega pinsir is S rank for a reason lol, and sweeps much more effectively than honchkrow. Again, I don't think this is debatable point.
All of this is not to say that honchkrow is useless; there may be situations in which it performs well, but each of the "birds", talonflame, staraptor, and mega-pinsir, outclass honchkrow in the roles revenging/cleaning, wallbreaking, and sweeping, respectively. I don't believe it belongs above D rank honestly.
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I was replying to someone who suggested Honchkrow to be removed from the thread alltogether. It goes without explaining that Mega Pinsir, Talonflame and Staraptor all perform better than Honchkrow in certain aspects, hence why they're all ranked much higher than Honchkrow. But D rank is too low for something as threatening as Honchkrow.
I also disagree with Staraptor "outclassing" Honchkrow. The power difference with Reckless is significant, but so is Staraptors lack of good priority (Quick Attack when you're running CB is not good priority). There's also the problem of being locked in due to CB (e.g. does he go out into Heatran and do I Close Combat, or is he going to Slowbro and do I Brave Bird?) Even if you predict right, sure you get the kill (as would Honchkrow) but you're probably going to be facing an appropriate resist or something faster afterwards, while Honchkrow can switch up moves to take out said resist or knock out the faster mon with Sucker Punch. Did I mention that Moxie makes it a lot easier for Honchkrow to stay in because it becomes so insanely powerful? As a revenge killer I'd rather have Honchkrows priority, and as a wallbreaker I'd rather have the ability to switch up moves. As a sweeper I'd definitely prefer Honch's ability to switch up moves, and Moxie allows it to be an effective sweeper. Staraptor can't really sweep that well because base 100 doesn't cut it and it lacks priority if you're locked into let's say Brave Bird or Double Edge. Also Honchkrow can go mixed, which is worth noting in scenarios vs pokemon like Skarmory or Forretress.
EDIT: Basically Honchkrow is a lot more versatile than these other three Flying-types. I'm pretty sure there's no denying that Mega Pinsir, Staraptor and even Talonflame to an extent are very one dimensional.
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First off can I say I wasn't trying to be condescending. I'm sorry if I came off as condescending to you, but I'm not trying to be. I truly believe there's no reason to use Honchkrow, that's all I'm trying to say. Please, tell me where I'm being condescending or something, because I sure as hell didn't try to be.
Now about this:
Straight from February's usage stats:
Jolly:4/252/0/0/0/252 21.053% | | Adamant:4/252/0/0/0/252 17.648% | | Adamant:252/252/0/0/4/0 16.992% | | Adamant:32/252/0/0/0/224 3.522% | | Adamant:0/252/0/0/4/252 3.159% | | Adamant:0/252/4/0/0/252 2.767% | | Other 34.859%
First off, calm down. You're trying to make me look condescending and just getting angry yourself.
Second, when and if you do get the moxie boost, you take damage from Life Orb (you're at 90% health now)
Then you Sucker Punch Bisharp instead of superpower because you look at the usage statistics and know that Jolly is common.
So Life Orb recoil from 2 hits, you're at 80% now.
Keep in mind this isn't even factoring in rocks, or ANY prior damage.
So then, safely assuming that the bisharp is jolly, you have sucker punched, and you did this much:
+1 252+ Atk Life Orb Honchkrow Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Bisharp: 136-160 (50.1 - 59%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Remember, you're at 80% after this
252 Atk Life Orb Bisharp Iron Head vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Honchkrow: 278-329 (81.5 - 96.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
So it's a 100% chance to OHKO.
Also:
252+ Atk Life Orb Bisharp Iron Head vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Honchkrow: 305-360 (89.4 - 105.5%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO
So I dunno what you're talking about.
Next:
From the Talonflame analysis:
but more importantly:
This was said by Jukain on page 3 in the talonflame analysis, if you want to check yourself. He/She sums up the argument much better than I can, but yeah. Every set that doesn't run U-turn (BU) gets burned, and CB runs both. SD is rare and doesn't function as well as the other sets anyway. U-turn doesn't save you from pursuit, and WoW doesn't save you from Stone Edge, yes, but Tyranitar usually tries to switch in on Talonflame, and that's when Talonflame beats it. I said Talonflame has "no problems" with Tyranitar, but I meant more on the switch, because that's when Talonflame can really cripple it.
I admit, my wording was confusing and stupid, I'll edit that post.
Next,
Slight nitpick, if Tyranitar is mega and a turn has passed, (and almost all mega tyranitar are DD) then you are outsped (because they run jolly so they can outspeed 115's after a DD) and killed with Ice Punch/Stone Edge. Obviously, if Mega Tyranitar is living Banded Bullet Punch from Scizor and Banded Aqua Jet from Azumarill with just 4 hp evs, it's easily taking a Sucker Punch from Honchkrow, no matter how much moxie boosts you have.
So Defensive Rotom-W is deemed as a rather great check to Fly-Spam right? So let's say you use a core of Honchkrow and Talonflame in a Fly-Spam team, because you claim that Honchkrow is better than Banded Raptor as a wallbreaker.
So let's see you break past Rotom-W:
252+ Atk Life Orb Honchkrow Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Rotom-W: 94-110 (30.9 - 36.1%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Life Orb Honchkrow Sucker Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Rotom-W: 125-148 (41.1 - 48.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
(unreliable because it could WoW)
252+ Atk Life Orb Honchkrow Superpower vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Rotom-W: 125-148 (41.1 - 48.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
(You don't kill, usually die to Volt switch/get burned)
Now let's take a look at Raptor
252 Atk Choice Band Reckless Staraptor Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Rotom-W: 114-135 (37.5 - 44.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers
recovery
252 Atk Choice Band Staraptor Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Rotom-W: 127-150 (41.7 - 49.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Choice Band Staraptor U-turn vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Rotom-W: 74-88 (24.3 - 28.9%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery
but you're smart, and predict the Rotom-W switch in.
252 Atk Choice Band Reckless Staraptor Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Rotom-W: 229-270 (75.3 - 88.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Keep in mind that these electric types are one of the best ways to check Fly-Spam, and none of those electric types can stomach a Double Edge from Raptor. Rotom-W is the biggest defensive enemy for fly spam, and Raptor just totally blows it out of the water.
Also keep in mind that Raptor's only use is on Fly-Spam teams, and according to you, it's Honchkrow's only real use as well.
and once again:
If you wanted, you could run Life Orb raptor.
252 Atk Life Orb Reckless Staraptor Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Rotom-W: 99-117 (32.5 - 38.4%) -- 3.2% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Life Orb Honchkrow Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Rotom-W: 94-110 (30.9 - 36.1%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
Jolly Raptor is STILL stronger than honchkrow, at a MUCH better speed tier, with reliable albeit weaker priority, and a fighting type move with less drawbacks then Superpower. Sure, you miss moxie, but your speed tier is pretty bad with honchkrow and sucker punch is pretty unreliable. Not to mention you still lose to Priority T-wave and Banded Talonflame revenging you, which are the main methods of revenge killing atm.
So with that calc outta the way, we can safely conclude there are two reasons to use Honchkrow over Raptor: Moxie and Sucker Punch
Meanwhile, Raptor has more strength, the ability to PUMMEL electric types:
252 Atk Life Orb Reckless Staraptor Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Rotom-W: 199-235 (65.4 - 77.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Has U-turn, has a more reliable priority, a better fighting type move (Close Combat>>>>>Superpower), and a MUCH better speed tier that doesn't make you overreliant on unreliable priority.
I started to mention Keldeo and Bisharp because those guys are the most common dark resists. I don't think you read carefully enough if you're saying "so what" to the fact that keldeo beats Honch.
And no, I haven't used honchkrow in OU (but I have in UU it's great there) because Staraptor does everything better.
I don't think I ever said it shoudn't be ranked. Because it definitely should, D is too low for such a powerful pokemon. I in fact suggested C-.
Again, if you so wished, Raptor can go LO too, and it destroys a lot of the arguments you're making about Honchkrow. Honchkrow meanwhile cannot go Banded because Banded Sucker Punch is blatant set-up fodder.
Honchkrow can indeed go mixed, but that means you lose to pokemon you beat with superpower, like Tyranitar and Heatran. Since Honchkrow is going to be on Fly-Spam teams, it's more valuable to beat the more common fly-spam resists instead of skarm, which is easy switch-ins to several other pokemon who can handle it. Raptor btw, also beats these guys.
As a revenge killer Honchkrow really sucks. Sucker Punch is super predictable and the pokemon which you're revenging can just set-up again. If you're slower than Honchkrow and Honchkrow can revenge you, there's no reason to be using him over some other bird. You're super frail, don't have prankster or anything, and Sucker Punch is not a reliable method to "sweep." In short, Sucker Punch will not be saving you from everything that outspeeds you, and most things that do will have the ability to kill you back. Honchkrow cannot and will not sweep. Honchkrow sucks as a revenger and a sweeper, and should only be a wallbreaker. If you wish to argue otherwise, show us some replays against good players where Honchkrow "sweeps" or reliably "revenge kills," or even a replay where it wallbreaks where a Raptor, LO or Banded, could not have done it.
Raptor isn't trying to sweep or revenge either, like you claim it is. It's a wallbreaker (they both are), and it outperforms Honchkrow in this regard.
Also, as for superpower, do realize that the moxie boost you get from killing that tyranitar or heatran is neutralized from the attack drop you get from superpower? You're very reliant on superpower for coverage too. This means that a good amount of the time you're still left frail and slow.
Heat Wave is a cool tool for breaking past Skarmory (Forretress has no business in OU, not to mention it doesn't resist Flying) but it can ultimately be done easily by other pokemon.
So I'm looking for a flying-type wall breaker to aid talonflame in sweeping a team, because that's what flying spam teams do.
Honchkrow
Pros
Moxie-Situational ability with good reward
Sucker Punch- strong but unreliable priority
Heat Wave- Can easily use other pokemon to handle Skarmory.
Cons
Bad Speed tier
Overreliant on priority
Weaker than Raptor
Cannot dent Rotom-W
Staraptor
Pros:
Stronger than Honchkrow
Faster than Honchkrow
More reliable priority
More consistent ability
Massacres Rotom-W with Double Edge
Cons:
Doesn't have moxie or mixed potential
Weaker Priority.
That about sums it up in my eyes. Feel free to contribute to this too.
I try to be thorough, not much I can do if you don't want to read.
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