XY NU Theorymon Discussion

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While Primape could switch into Defog and get free +2, it doesn't want to get popped by a predicted Brave Bird seeing as how most defoggers are Flying Type. I think a prime candidate for that would be my boy Pawniard. While I used Sub-SD set in last gen NU, this gen it doesn't even need to set up. It can switch into any defog from pokes like Golbat, Articuno, Skuntank, Shiftry (bar Low Kick) or Sticky Web and get free +2. From then it could wreck havoc just like his big brother Bisharp does in OU. My predicted Utility/Sweeper set would be:

Shredder (Pawniard) @ Eviolite
Ability: Defiant
EVs: 44 Spd / 252 Atk / 212 HP
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance / Brick Break
- Iron Head
- Sucker Punch
- Knock Off

Gurdurr, its No.1 check last gen won't appreciate taking a knock off now. Plus it gets whole heaps of support moves like Taunt/ Thunder Wave/ Stealth Rock/ Pursuit etc.
 
Pursuit is another possible option for Pawniard if it plays a utility role more, using it's typing to be able to force out most psychic types and hit them with that on the switch. Rock Polish is a potential sweeper if defog becomes a big thing, using a defiant boost and getting +2 speed and tearing through most opponents. Thunder Wave is possible for some sets, I suppose. Toxic is an interesting move as it can allow it to status Musharna and not care, although with Mushy's probable decline it's not going to help much. It also learns mean look, taunt, and stealth rock which could be used well in certain roles.

Low Kick is another offensive possibility, hitting heavy steel types hard.
 
While Primape could switch into Defog and get free +2, it doesn't want to get popped by a predicted Brave Bird seeing as how most defoggers are Flying Type. I think a prime candidate for that would be my boy Pawniard. While I used Sub-SD set in last gen NU, this gen it doesn't even need to set up. It can switch into any defog from pokes like Golbat, Articuno, Skuntank, Shiftry (bar Low Kick) or Sticky Web and get free +2. From then it could wreck havoc just like his big brother Bisharp does in OU. My predicted Utility/Sweeper set would be:

Shredder (Pawniard) @ Eviolite
Ability: Defiant
EVs: 44 Spd / 252 Atk / 212 HP
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance / Brick Break
- Iron Head
- Sucker Punch
- Knock Off

Gurdurr, its No.1 check last gen won't appreciate taking a knock off now. Plus it gets whole heaps of support moves like Taunt/ Thunder Wave/ Stealth Rock/ Pursuit etc.
This is a really interesting set idea. I never thought to use Pawniard in NU. I'll have to experiment with him once the XY NU tier is finalized.

Speaking of fellow Defiant users, how about Purugly? What sets Purugly apart from Pawniard and Primeape is its amazing speed stat by NU standards, as well as it's good movepool and access to a priority move (Quick Attack). He seems tailor made for a revenge killer role after switching into a predicted Defog or Sticky Web.

Angry Kitty (Purugly) @ Life Orb/Choice Band
Ability: Defiant
EVs: 252 Attack / 252 Spe / 4 HP (will have to play around with the evs, obviously)
Adamant Nature
- Return / Quick Attack / Body Slam (Body Slam could be especially useful if you're dealing with a opposing Sticky Web team)
- U-turn
- Play Rough
- Knock Off / Shadow Claw

Some calcs against Articuno, the bulkiest defogger in NU:
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Purugly Return vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Articuno: 348-411 (90.6 - 107%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO

+2 252+ Atk Choice Band Purugly Return vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Articuno: 402-474 (104.6 - 123.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

The biggest problem for Purugly is that he lacks a semi-reliable way to hit Steel-types outside of the weak Bulldoze or Wake Up Slap, though Knock Off and Shadow Claw do hit them for neutral damage now.
 

Punchshroom

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+2 252 Atk Life Orb Purugly Wake-Up Slap (70 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Probopass: 364-432 (112.34 - 133.33%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Purugly Wake-Up Slap (70 BP) vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Bastiodon: 317-374 (98.14 - 115.78%) -- 81.25% chance to OHKO

Wake-Up Slap seems to be enough after a Defiant boost.

Purugly @ Life Orb
Ability: Defiant
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Return
- Wake-Up Slap
- Knock Off
- Quick Attack / Sucker Punch

If you're going to use Purugly, you should try to capitalize on Defiant's boost. Purugly would not like having its Speed cut by Sticky Web, but Quick Attack or Sucker Punch should help to mitigate that. Also, Knock Off is pretty much the best coverage move a Normal-type physical attacker can ask for (that goes for Zangoose as well), so you might as well just use that. I wouldn't suggest Play Rough as unboosted Play Rough does not OHKO Sawk (without Sturdy) while +2 Play Rough does not OHKO Gurdurr, only really mattering against Primeape.
 
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Purugly Wake-Up Slap (70 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Probopass: 364-432 (112.34 - 133.33%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Purugly Wake-Up Slap (70 BP) vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Bastiodon: 317-374 (98.14 - 115.78%) -- 81.25% chance to OHKO

Wake-Up Slap seems to be enough after a Defiant boost.

Purugly @ Life Orb
Ability: Defiant
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Return
- Wake-Up Slap
- Knock Off
- Quick Attack / Sucker Punch

If you're going to use Purugly, you should try to capitalize on Defiant's boost. Purugly would not like having its Speed cut by Sticky Web, but Quick Attack or Sucker Punch should help to mitigate that. Also, Knock Off is pretty much the best coverage move a Normal-type physical attacker can ask for (that goes for Zangoose as well), so you might as well just use that. I wouldn't suggest Play Rough as unboosted Play Rough does not OHKO Sawk (without Sturdy) while +2 Play Rough does not OHKO Gurdurr, only really mattering against Primeape.
Good set idea! I think Purugly greatly benefits from the ability to switch moves. There's nothing stopping the opponent from switching their defogger out to a steel or ghost type after an anticipated Return, so Life Orb is probably the best item for him (though the extra power boost from Choice Band will be missed).

Another relevant calc from NU's (arguably) best defogger:

+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Purugly Return vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Golbat: 312-368 (88.1 - 103.9%) -- 25% chance to OHKO

With a Choice Band it's a clean OHKO.
 
I'm still not sold on Purugly. The fact is that unless you pull a defiant boost, you simply face a lot of competition from many of the more common and relavant normal types still. Without your defiant boost, your attack is among the lowest of the Normal spammers of NU. Zangoose has similar coverage, but can abuse toxic boost, facade, and hits harder off the bat. Swellow has the same, and also has a faster speed than purugly. Tauros is much more reliable, being outsped by 2 base speed but having a lot more bulk, power, and having a better moveset and 2 amazing abilities. Finally, Sawsbuck also outclasses purugly in the fact that it can set up, abuse sun, baton pass more reliable Sap Sipper boosts than defiant, and it also has better typing.

Tl;Dr unless you can guarantee nabbing a defiant boost mrs.cat is still one useless pussy compared to the rest of the gang. That being said, this niche alone will definitely make it more viable, and I am excited to see its usage!
 
For some reason, I really want to discuss Floette (The regular one, AZ's Floette is too OP for the lower tiers). It may see use as a sort of Eviolite Fairy-tank, but will face major competition with Togetic in that role. However, Floette only has 2 weaknesses compared to Togetic's 5. It may be a sort of niche to handle the Darks, Dragons and Fightings in the tier, though Togetic also has the 4x resistance to fighting going for it over Floette. I could see a RestTalk (Maybe the same set as Klang from last gen but with Calm Mind and Moonblast over Shift Gear and Gear Grind) or a WishTect set being usable options. It also faces competition with Aromatisse as well for a tanky fairy (As well as Togetic but I already mentioned it enough). Like other Eviolite users, however, Floette is completely dependant on Eviolite to even take a hit, so it's easy pray for Knock Off + Poison Jab Sawk and Primeape (And Poison-types as well). I can see it's uses, though I pretty much believe it will end up in PU.

Also, I actually do think that Metang will be a bit worse this gen, though it will still have it's uses in checking Fairy-types. Though Slurpuff has Flamethrower and Thief to hit it for Super-effective damage.
 
Braviary should be able to be a good defiant user on defogs as well, excluding Articuno.

So, how about Defiant Farfetch'd sweeps? :3


I'd like to point something else out though. With all the Defiant pokemon being mentioned, Defiant's new counterpart Competitive deserves a look too. The only thing able to use it, really, is Meowstic-F, but Meowstic looks like it would work well on coming in on a defog and then sweeping with a good 104 speed and it's decent 83 base special attack.

Competitive Sweeper (Meowstic-F) (F)
Ability: Competitive
Item: Life Orb/Expert Belt/Mind Plate/Focus Sash
EVs: 252 SAtk / 252 Spd / 4 HP
Timid Nature
IVs: NaN Atk
- Psychic/Psyshock
- Signal Beam
- Thunderbolt
- Dark Pulse

It's pretty self-explanatory what this set does. Come in on a defog, get the stat boosts, and sweep. Psychic is the most powerful and damage dealing STAB, while the slightly weaker Psyshock smacks most special walls for some nice damage. Signal Beam hits pokemon such as Liepard, Shiftry, Sneasel, Zwelious and most of the NU grass types hard. Thunderbolt hits the bulky water types nicely and hits the flying types it's coming in on the defog of very well, as well as giving a neutral attack on Skuntank and Drapion if you end up playing pursuit/sucker punch mind games with one of them. Dark Pulse is preferred over Shadow Ball so that normal types don't get an easy switch-in, plus the flinch is more useful than the special defense drop in most situations.

It has quite a few flaws(what in NU doesn't), but it might be able to do well. The lack of a fighting type move like focus blast to hit steels and some problems with Skuntank/Drapion, not to mention the priority that will easily kill it in most cases, plus the only decent 83 Sp. Atk not being enough in some situations being quite possible, does give it some questionablillity as to if it can succeed, but since this is just Theorymonning, it's hard to say.
 
Braviary should be able to be a good defiant user on defogs as well, excluding Articuno.

So, how about Defiant Farfetch'd sweeps? :3


I'd like to point something else out though. With all the Defiant pokemon being mentioned, Defiant's new counterpart Competitive deserves a look too. The only thing able to use it, really, is Meowstic-F, but Meowstic looks like it would work well on coming in on a defog and then sweeping with a good 104 speed and it's decent 83 base special attack.

Competitive Sweeper (Meowstic-F) (F)
Ability: Competitive
Item: Life Orb/Expert Belt/Mind Plate/Focus Sash
EVs: 252 SAtk / 252 Spd / 4 HP
Timid Nature
IVs: NaN Atk
- Psychic/Psyshock
- Signal Beam
- Thunderbolt
- Dark Pulse

It's pretty self-explanatory what this set does. Come in on a defog, get the stat boosts, and sweep. Psychic is the most powerful and damage dealing STAB, while the slightly weaker Psyshock smacks most special walls for some nice damage. Signal Beam hits pokemon such as Liepard, Shiftry, Sneasel, Zwelious and most of the NU grass types hard. Thunderbolt hits the bulky water types nicely and hits the flying types it's coming in on the defog of very well, as well as giving a neutral attack on Skuntank and Drapion if you end up playing pursuit/sucker punch mind games with one of them. Dark Pulse is preferred over Shadow Ball so that normal types don't get an easy switch-in, plus the flinch is more useful than the special defense drop in most situations.

It has quite a few flaws(what in NU doesn't), but it might be able to do well. The lack of a fighting type move like focus blast to hit steels and some problems with Skuntank/Drapion, not to mention the priority that will easily kill it in most cases, plus the only decent 83 Sp. Atk not being enough in some situations being quite possible, does give it some questionablillity as to if it can succeed, but since this is just Theorymonning, it's hard to say.
I'm very skeptical about flying-type Defiant users this gen. Their typing means that it has to come in on a predicted Defog or Intimidate switch-in since they aren't affected by Sticky Web. And with the (arguably) best defogger Articuno being part Ice-type switching in on a defog is quite a risky play.

I like how Defiant Pawniard sounds, though!
 
I'm still not sold on Purugly. The fact is that unless you pull a defiant boost, you simply face a lot of competition from many of the more common and relavant normal types still. <Zangoose, Swellow, Sawsbuck>
How are you talking about relevant Normal-types, but forgetting the best one in Kangaskhan?

I'm very skeptical about flying-type Defiant users this gen. Their typing means that it has to come in on a predicted Defog or Intimidate switch-in since they aren't affected by Sticky Web. And with the (arguably) best defogger Articuno being part Ice-type switching in on a defog is quite a risky play.
If I'm going to be honest, I'd actually Articuno should never be used as a Defogger.
 
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Yeah, Articuno isn't really the best defogger mostly because its typing halves its health after rocks which Cuno is trying to remove. The best defoggers are probably going to be Shiftry and Skuntank which is kinda bad for Competitive Meowstic-F if its trying to switch in. Even if it does manage to switch into Defog, Skuntank still donks it up with Sucker Punch.
 
How are you talking about relevant Normal-types, but forgetting the best one in Kangaskhan?



If I'm going to be honest, I'd actually Articuno should never be used as a Defogger.
Because Kangaskhan is completely irrelevant to NU in 6th gen. Even with Kangaskhanite in Ubers Kangaskhan will be RU / UU material.
 
Because Kangaskhan is completely irrelevant to NU in 6th gen. Even with Kangaskhanite in Ubers Kangaskhan will be RU / UU material.
Rofl. If it wasn't last gen, how is it this gen? Note: Knock Off on Kangaskhan was proven to be illegal. (Meaning it gained absolutely nothing.)
 
This pretty much means that we will lose everything that got a mega. (Base Gardevoir is showing lots of viability in UU, though it will probably go RU provided Mega Gardevoir doesn't make it jump to OU)
 
Last gen it was extremely high up and very viable in RU. It's already got the boost up there, so they're not going to let it drop back down again.
83 | Kangaskhan | 1.09698% <- Kangaskhan usage in Gen V RU.

It may have been really viable, but it was nowhere near being included in RU's tier listing. Kangaskhan gained nothing moving into Gen 6, and new threats can easily drop from UU, and probably will drop, to prevent Kangaskhan from going up.
 
83 | Kangaskhan | 1.09698% <- Kangaskhan usage in Gen V RU.

It may have been really viable, but it was nowhere near being included in RU's tier listing. Kangaskhan gained nothing moving into Gen 6, and new threats can easily drop from UU, and probably will drop, to prevent Kangaskhan from going up.
Remember that a pokemon gets banished to BL if it is too gets enough usage in NU and not enough in RU e.g. Jynx Scolipede. Regardless, it is pretty much accepted by the general community that Kangaskhan will not remain a NU pokemon next generation, but I hope it does. That being said, fact and my opinion deviate.
 
For some reason, I really want to discuss Floette (The regular one, AZ's Floette is too OP for the lower tiers). It may see use as a sort of Eviolite Fairy-tank, but will face major competition with Togetic in that role. However, Floette only has 2 weaknesses compared to Togetic's 5. It may be a sort of niche to handle the Darks, Dragons and Fightings in the tier, though Togetic also has the 4x resistance to fighting going for it over Floette. I could see a RestTalk (Maybe the same set as Klang from last gen but with Calm Mind and Moonblast over Shift Gear and Gear Grind) or a WishTect set being usable options. It also faces competition with Aromatisse as well for a tanky fairy (As well as Togetic but I already mentioned it enough). Like other Eviolite users, however, Floette is completely dependant on Eviolite to even take a hit, so it's easy pray for Knock Off + Poison Jab Sawk and Primeape (And Poison-types as well). I can see it's uses, though I pretty much believe it will end up in PU.
I honestly don't see a reason to use Floette. I'd still rather use Togetic, even in spite of its other weaknesses. I've toyed around with Togetic in BW NU, and I liked physically defensive the most. Over Floette, Togetic has reliable recovery in one move, Defog, better stats (only its Attack and Speed are lower than Floette's, and its Defense is significantly higher), cuter design, better ability, better offensive movepool, etc. It's nearly an all-around better Pokemon. The only thing that it really has over Togetic is Moonblast, and that is hardly an advantage anyways because it barely outdamages Togetic's Dazzling Gleam. Aromatisse is another option, but it doesn't have Defog and could end up RU (haven't checked stats in a long time).
 
I'm still not sold on Purugly. The fact is that unless you pull a defiant boost, you simply face a lot of competition from many of the more common and relavant normal types still. Without your defiant boost, your attack is among the lowest of the Normal spammers of NU. Zangoose has similar coverage, but can abuse toxic boost, facade, and hits harder off the bat. Swellow has the same, and also has a faster speed than purugly. Tauros is much more reliable, being outsped by 2 base speed but having a lot more bulk, power, and having a better moveset and 2 amazing abilities. Finally, Sawsbuck also outclasses purugly in the fact that it can set up, abuse sun, baton pass more reliable Sap Sipper boosts than defiant, and it also has better typing.

Tl;Dr unless you can guarantee nabbing a defiant boost mrs.cat is still one useless pussy compared to the rest of the gang. That being said, this niche alone will definitely make it more viable, and I am excited to see its usage!
That's definitely true. Has there been any indication yet as to whether NU will be a Defog-heavy metagame? Purugly's viability pretty much hinges on the presence of that one move.
 
I honestly don't see a reason to use Floette. I'd still rather use Togetic, even in spite of its other weaknesses. I've toyed around with Togetic in BW NU, and I liked physically defensive the most. Over Floette, Togetic has reliable recovery in one move, Defog, better stats (only its Attack and Speed are lower than Floette's, and its Defense is significantly higher), cuter design, better ability, better offensive movepool, etc. It's nearly an all-around better Pokemon. The only thing that it really has over Togetic is Moonblast, and that is hardly an advantage anyways because it barely outdamages Togetic's Dazzling Gleam. Aromatisse is another option, but it doesn't have Defog and could end up RU (haven't checked stats in a long time).
As stated in the previous page, Togetic will be a fantastic pivot, and will be used much like Musharna in BW NU was. A set with Roost / Dazzling Gleam / Baton Pass / Yawn (or Thunder Wave). Above Musharna, Togetic has better bulk, typing, etc. However, Togetic also has less offensive presence. (107 SpA vs. 80 SpA)

Brawlfest I honestly see no reason as to why Kangaskhan will suddenly rise up to RU when there will be a lot more threats in the tier to prevent this from occurring. Kangaskhan gained absolutely nothing in the BW-XY transition. There's nothing you can say that will justify Kangaskhan moving up to RU this gen.
 
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Celever

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As stated in the previous page, Togetic will be a fantastic pivot, and will be used much like Musharna in BW NU was. A set with Roost / Dazzling Gleam / Baton Pass / Yawn (or Thunder Wave). Above Musharna, Togetic has better bulk, typing, etc. However, Togetic also has less offensive presence. (107 SpA vs. 80 SpA)

Brawlfest I honestly see no reason as to why Kangaskhan will suddenly rise up to RU when there will be a lot more threats in the tier to prevent this from occurring. Kangaskhan gained absolutely nothing in the BW-XY transition. There's nothing you can say that will justify Kangaskhan moving up to RU this gen.
Some of the new RU "threats" such as Porygon-Z and Yanmega can actually be dispatched by Kangaskhan iirc.

Comparing Togetic to Musharna? You overestimate Fairy a lot, as that one typing is never going to take a D-Rank threat to S. Musharna is FAR bulkier. Togetic has 55 HP, don't forget, whereas Musharna had 116 making those fairly average defensive stats absolutely amazing. Like you said already, Musharna has far more offensive presence and even better abilities. Nobody is going to take advantage of Serene Grace nor Super Luck seriously on a pivot, whereas Musharna could pull some antics with Synchronize. Musharna does have better typing than Togekiss, anyway, as while it doesn't resist an awful lot it isn't weak to lots either, whereas Togetic is weak to Ice, Rock, Steel, Poison and Electric just off the top of my head. Togetic will be a fairly niche Pokémon on the border between B and C in the rankings going into XY, I can't see it anywhere higher than B- and that's probably over-shooting things itself.
 
252+ SpA Ludicolo Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Musharna: 115-136 (26.3 - 31.1%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
252+ SpA Ludicolo Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Togetic: 72-85 (22.9 - 27%) -- 46.5% chance to 4HKO
(Just to prove my point even further... 252+ SpA Ludicolo Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Togetic: 78-94 (24.8 - 29.9%) -- 100% chance to 4HKO)

Better bulk, you say, Celever? Also, Togetic may have a couple more weaknesses, however, it also has a fair amount of resistances that Musharna lack. I can truthfully say that I'd much rather be using Togetic than Musharna.
 
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Celever

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Then leftovers recovery kicks in and Musharna wins again.

Togetic resists awful types. He only ones I can think of right now are bugs and grass, and immunity to ground. Ground is the only truthfully common one listed, but I guess you can counter leavanny well? Just don't make things seem much better than they really are and hype them pointlessly, please.
 

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Then leftovers recovery kicks in and Musharna wins again.

Togetic resists awful types. He only ones I can think of right now are bugs and grass, and immunity to ground. Ground is the only truthfully common one listed, but I guess you can counter leavanny well? Just don't make things seem much better than they really are and hype them pointlessly, please.
It 4x resists bug, grass, and fighting, 2x resists dark, and is immune to dragon and ground. Pretty good if you ask me.
 
What really bums me out about Togetic is her reliance on eviolite. Musharna doesn't need to rely on her item to fulfill her role, while Togetic does. And Knock Off seems to be everywhere this gen.

(Togetic is still cuter, though)

It 4x resists bug, grass, and fighting, 2x resists dark, and is immune to dragon and ground. Pretty good if you ask me.
Sadly, Togetic only has a 2x resist to grass, but the quadruple resistance to bug and fighting as well ground and dragon immunities are nice pluses over Musharna. Musharna, for instance, can be forced out with Dragon Tail (almost always carried by Lickilicky, a very common NU Poke, IIRC), while Togetic can not.
 
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Blast

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re: Mush vs. Togetic: Yeah honestly I'd prefer Mush in most situations. Togetic's typing is a lot less useful in NU than it is in upper tiers; Dragons are rare, Bugs are rare with the loss of Pinsir and Scoli, and Fighting-types can all play around it with Knock Off for Sawk and Gurdurr and U-turn for Primeape. A lot of common Dark-types like Skuntank and Shiftry can cripple it with Poison Jab and Knock Off respectively, and several Grass-types like Sawsbuck, Roselia, and Serperior can accomplish similar feats with LO Double-Edge, Sludge Bomb, and CM respectively. Meanwhile, its weaknesses to Rock (SR), Electric (Volt Switch), and Poison (which is very common in NU) are much more detrimental to Togetic's success than its resistances. On the other hand, Musharna has a very useful resistance to Psychic (another common attacking type in NU) and lacks Togetic's weakness to SR and Volt Switch, which is greatly beneficial for it. It also boasts access to Leftovers, which might not seem like much but the passive recovery is extremely useful if it's meant to last throughout the match (especially when compared to Togetic, who's weak to SR and has no Lefties). Tbf though Togetic's not ~weaker~ to say, Knock Off than Mush because Mush does get hit SE by it.

Togetic is still a pretty interesting mon to discuss but yeah I don't think it'll make ~that~ huge of a splash in NU. I agree with Treecko that phys def would probably be its best set since it can wall stuff like Golurk (which is a plus over Mush, definitely) and avoid the OHKO from Sawk's Stone Edge while being able to pivot with Baton Pass.
 
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