X&Y LITTLE CUP VICTIM OF THE WEEK (Week 5, SD Gligar) (SEE POST 207)

[BadPandaPancham]

My set that has proven it's reliability not just countering Dwebble (which I hadn't thought of it doing when creating this), but also acting as a great Sweeper in general and has proven useful thanks to it's Gen 6 improvements.

Corphish @ Eviolite
Ability: Adaptability
Level: 5
EVs: 80 Spd / 196 Atk / 76 SDef / 156 Def
Impish Nature
- Knock Off
- Aqua Jet
- Dragon Dance
- Rock Slide / Waterfall

Now, the highest possible damage a Dwebble can do to Corpish at +0 is 3HKO (with X-Scissor). Rock Blast is a 5HKO, and Earthquake is a 94.1% chance oh 3HKOing.

Even with +2, most Dwebble can do is 2HKO. We also know that Dwebble will only have one chance to attack: When Corphish uses knock-off. After, it eats an Aqua Jet and goes down.

Thanks to Corphish getting Aqua Jet, it can provide as a team sweeper, or a revenge killer with the Adaptability Aqua Jet on top of it's naturally high Attack Stat in LC terms.
Whether or not Dwebble has Shell Smashed, it's going to die. Knock-Off rids Berry Juice while Corpish takes any hit to the face and retaliates with Aqua Jet.

With it's Eviolite bulk after taking down Dwebble, it has a chance of setting up (if it hasn't set up before Dwebble) with Dragon Dance, allowing it to potentially smite teams. Knock Off is, as we know, an extremely good move, Rock Slide provides good coverage, and Aqua Jet for priority and Adaptability STAB increase. The reason why Rock Slide is slashed is if whether or not you also want a stronger Adaptability STAB move. Note, Corphish is also able to take out pesky Gliscors, amazingly enough, or even just crippling them with Knock Off.

Dwebble's calcs against Corphish

236+ Atk (custom) X-Scissor vs. 0 HP / 156 Def Eviolite (custom): 7-9 (35 - 45%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

+2 236+ Atk (custom) X-Scissor vs. 0 HP / 156 Def Eviolite (custom): 13-16 (65 - 80%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Please excuse why it shows Corphish's hides down below twice, it only has the BB code set entered once but according to Preview it turns out like this, which means there is nothing I can do about it and it's not my fault, and it is really bugging me. :(

Corphish's calcs against Dwebble

196+ Atk (custom) Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def (custom): 9-11 (42.8 - 52.3%) -- 7.4% chance to 2HKO
196+ Atk Adaptability (custom) Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 0 Def (custom): 16-20 (76.1 - 95.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

196+ Atk Adaptability (custom) Aqua Jet vs. -1 0 HP / 0 Def (custom): 20-28 (95.2 - 133.3%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO

196+ Atk (custom) Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. -1 0 HP / 0 Def (custom): 12-15 (57.1 - 71.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Corpish not only nicely deals with the given threat, but it also allows use for teams without Dwebble or before/after facing Dwebble. :)
Also, if you really wanted to, you could take the Speed EVs and invest them into it's HP, but would cost some mobility to add extra bulk, even though he does have a priority move.

Edit: Shifting the 80 Speed EV's to HP is extremely recommended, and an Impish nature ensures more protection (if necessary).

 

[Lhions]

Shellos@ Eviolite
Ability: Sticky Hold
Level: 5
EVs: 212 Def / 228 HP / 20 SDef / 4 Spd
Bold Nature
- Recover
- Scald
- Clear Smogon
- Yawn/Toxic/whirpool

Dwebble's calcs against Shellos

+2 236+ Atk Dwebble X-Scissor vs. 228 HP / 212+ Def Eviolite Shellos: 13-16 (48.1 - 59.2%) -- 85.9% chance to 2HKO
236+ Atk Dwebble X-Scissor vs. 228 HP / 212+ Def Eviolite Shellos: 7-9 (25.9 - 33.3%) -- 0% chance to 3HKO

Shellos's calcs against Dwebble

0 SpA Shellos Scald vs. -1 0 HP / 0 SpD Dwebble: 32-42 (152.3 - 200%) -- guaranteed OHKO
0 SpA Shellos Clear Smog vs. -1 0 HP / 0 SpD Dwebble: 4-5 (19 - 23.8%) -- possible 5HKO
0 SpA Shellos Scald vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Dwebble: 20-26 (95.2 - 123.8%) -- 75% chance to OHKO
0 SpA Shellos Whirpool vs. -1 0 HP / 0 SpD Dwebble: 14-18 (66.6 - 85.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

The set is simple, the 3 atacks to counter dwebble and a filler.
Shellos has the enought bulk to could enter with security vs Dwebble, X-scissor (the best atack what only can 4hko him without Shell Smash and 2hko him with the shell boost), so you're always going to be able to enter and use clear smog without risk and then use recover and finish with Scald.
Respect the filler move i think shellos has 3 options, the most common and secure is toxic, but you can use yawn if you predit a swap to force your enemy to decide between swap again or has a pokemon sleeping, Whirpool is also a good option to trap the enemy pokemon (posible ohko Dwebble after clear smog or rocks), so i think is a interesting option to secure dwebble kill or trap something at less

why shellos is my option?

Shellos is my option because:

• He can enter vs dwebble always,
• He has a recovery move
• He resists the most dangerous attack of dwebble (rock blast)
• He can 2hko him (clear smog dont active berry juice even with the debuff)
• He can delete his buffs
• He has acces to Yawn/Whirpool to apply presure and win momentum
• He is not a Gimlick option or a pokemon who only counter Dwebble but dont have other funtion in your team.

 

[Heysup]

Bronzor @ Eviolite
Ability: Sticky Hold
Level: 5
EVs: 212 Def / 228 HP / 20 SDef / 4 Spd
Bold Nature
- Recover
- Scald
- Clear Smogon
- Yawn/Toxic/whirpool

+2 236+ Atk Dwebble X-Scissor vs. 228 HP / 212+ Def Eviolite Shellos: 13-16 (48.1 - 59.2%) -- 85.9% chance to 2HKO
236+ Atk Dwebble X-Scissor vs. 228 HP / 212+ Def Eviolite Shellos: 7-9 (25.9 - 33.3%) -- 0% chance to 3HKO
0 SpA Shellos Scald vs. -1 0 HP / 0 SpD Dwebble: 32-42 (152.3 - 200%) -- guaranteed OHKO

PD: gonna edit when i had time (in a hours maybe) , but in fact this is the basic

That looks like a Shellos....

 

[sparktrain]

My set that has proven it's reliability not just countering Dwebble (which I hadn't thought of it doing when creating this), but also acting as a great Sweeper in general and has proven useful thanks to it's Gen 6 improvements.

Corphish @ Eviolite
Ability: Adaptability
Level: 5
EVs: 80 Spd / 196 Atk / 76 SDef / 156 Def
Adamant Nature
- Knock Off
- Aqua Jet
- Dragon Dance
- Rock Slide / Waterfall

Now, the highest possible damage a Dwebble can do to Corpish at +0 is 3HKO (with X-Scissor). Rock Blast is a 5HKO, and Earthquake is a 94.1% chance oh 3HKOing.

Even with +2, most Dwebble can do is 2HKO. We also know that Dwebble will only have one chance to attack: When Corphish uses knock-off. After, it eats an Aqua Jet and goes down.

Thanks to Corphish getting Aqua Jet, it can provide as a team sweeper, or a revenge killer with the Adaptability Aqua Jet on top of it's naturally high Attack Stat in LC terms.
Whether or not Dwebble has Shell Smashed, it's going to die. Knock-Off rids Berry Juice while Corpish takes any hit to the face and retaliates with Aqua Jet.

With it's Eviolite bulk after taking down Dwebble, it has a chance of setting up (if it hasn't set up before Dwebble) with Dragon Dance, allowing it to potentially smite teams. Knock Off is, as we know, an extremely good move, Rock Slide provides good coverage, and Aqua Jet for priority and Adaptability STAB increase. The reason why Rock Slide is slashed is if whether or not you also want a stronger Adaptability STAB move. Note, Corphish is also able to take out pesky Gliscors, amazingly enough, or even just crippling them with Knock Off.

Dwebble's calcs against Corphish

236+ Atk (custom) X-Scissor vs. 0 HP / 156 Def Eviolite (custom): 7-9 (35 - 45%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

+2 236+ Atk (custom) X-Scissor vs. 0 HP / 156 Def Eviolite (custom): 13-16 (65 - 80%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Please excuse why it shows Corphish's hides down below twice, it only has the BB code set entered once but according to Preview it turns out like this, which means there is nothing I can do about it and it's not my fault, and it is really bugging me. :(

Corphish's calcs against Dwebble

196+ Atk (custom) Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def (custom): 9-11 (42.8 - 52.3%) -- 7.4% chance to 2HKO
196+ Atk Adaptability (custom) Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 0 Def (custom): 16-20 (76.1 - 95.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

196+ Atk Adaptability (custom) Aqua Jet vs. -1 0 HP / 0 Def (custom): 20-28 (95.2 - 133.3%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO

196+ Atk (custom) Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. -1 0 HP / 0 Def (custom): 12-15 (57.1 - 71.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Corpish not only nicely deals with the given threat, but it also allows use for teams without Dwebble or before/after facing Dwebble. :)
Also, if you really wanted to, you could take the Speed EVs and invest them into it's HP, but would cost some mobility to add extra bulk, even though he does have a priority move.

A not-very-effective Waterfall will still outdamage a neutral Rock Slide, thanks to Adaptability. You could also use Crabhammer for even more power, although it has lower accuracy.

Also, Corphish has trouble tanking a +2 Rock Blast
+2 236+ Atk (custom) Rock Blast (3 hits) vs. 0 HP / 156 Def Eviolite (custom): 18-21 (90 - 105%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

 

[Lhions]

That looks like a Shellos....

Yeah is part of the suprise xD

 

[leingodf8]

Shellos is my option because:

• He can enter vs dwebble always,
• He has a recovery move
• He resists the most dangerous attack of dwebble (rock blast)
• He can 2hko him (clear smog dont active berry juice even with the debuff)
• He can delete his buffs
• He has acces to Yawn/Whirpool to apply presure and win momentum
• He is not a Gimlick option or a pokemon who only counter Dwebble but dont have other funtion in your team.

Not to rain on your parade or anything but shellos doesn't resist rock blast. Doesn't get its ground typing till it evolves. Its pretty bulky though so mabye it can still tank a rock blast.

 

[Goddess Briyella]

There is no way Shellos can reliably tank a STAB Rock Blast at +2 from Dwebble. The chance of Rock Blast only getting 2 hits is very shaky.

 

[BadPandaPancham]

A not-very-effective Waterfall will still outdamage a neutral Rock Slide, thanks to Adaptability. You could also use Crabhammer for even more power, although it has lower accuracy.

Also, Corphish has trouble tanking a +2 Rock Blast
+2 236+ Atk (custom) Rock Blast (3 hits) vs. 0 HP / 156 Def Eviolite (custom): 18-21 (90 - 105%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

Hope you realize Waterfall is super effective...also, when I put the calcs in, a +2 Rock Blast (after SR) didn't do that much at all. Maybe I entered it wrong? I'll edit this post with the calcs I ended up with.
Edit: Never mind about what I said about waterfall, I thought you meant against Dwebble.
You were right about the first calcs, but I said you could also take the speed EVs and invest them in HP (since it has a priority move)

+2 236+ Atk (custom) Rock Blast (3 hits) vs. 80 HP / 156 Def Eviolite (custom): 13-16 (61.9 - 76.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

you could also make it have an Impish nature :P

+2 236+ Atk (custom) Rock Blast (4 hits) vs. 80 HP / 156+ Def Eviolite (custom): 16-19 (76.1 - 90.4%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

Even with an Impish nature, the calcs show that Corphish will for sure take it out after knock-off with Aqua Jet (and those calcs I didn't even put -1 Def to Dwebble, since they weren't necessary). But thanks, I think I'll make a minor edit to my original post. ^_^

 

[Liquidocelot]

My favorite chech to berry smash dwebble is none other than...

Tirtouga
Sturdy
Berry juice
Adamanant
84 hp 212 att 180 spe
Shell smash
Aqua jet
Earthquake
Stone edge

Berry smash tirtouga who can come in on the shell smash/eq and either A smash itself and then eq aqua jet conbo it till its dead and proceed to do heavy damage to the rest of there team or B eq/aj it straight away as standard smash juice dwebble at -1 will always be brought to sturdy/berry juice range and you can then beat it the second time as your berry juice is activated via sturdy. The reason i say this is a check instead of a counter is that this only works if he doesnt get multiple hits with rock blast or stealth rocks is on the field. Overall this has worked 9/10 times for me and when it doesnt 90% of those times i can revenge with another poke and it is a solid check.

 

[Ray Jay]

As a point of clarification, and from my experience in running this kind of thing before, it helps if you can submit the exact set (including EVs and nature) that counters the pokemon in question. For example, and not to single someone out, saying "you can take some EVs from offense and put them in defense" is not acceptable, you need to present the defensive set or the offensive one. Otherwise you get into this realm we're starting to creep into this time and also happened slightly last time where it's difficult to argue against your points because you can just say "oh well I mentioned you can also use a defensive spread so yeah". Post one spread, use calcs for that spread, and respond to criticisms about that spread.

Liquidocelot please keep in mind we're ideally looking for counters on this thread, so assuming there is no sr and admitting it's only a check greatly hurts your prospects.

 

[Goddess Briyella]

Submissions Are Over!

As Electrolyte will be absent for a few days, I'll be closing the counter submissions for this Victim of the Week on his behalf.

Here are the submissions:

sparktrain's Squirtle
leingodf8's Timburr
Sergetank's Wooper
Raseri's Pancham
unitard's Meditite
Heysup's Mienfoo
Corkscrew's Shellder
Treecko's Bronzor
Chieliee's Seel
Phemeto's Koffing
prem's Ferroseed
Ssin's Scraggy
atomicllamas's Tirtouga
kingmidas's Gligar
BadPandaPancham's Corphish
Lhions's Shellos
Liquidocelot's Tirtouga

There were many, many clever submissions this week. Feel free to discuss which entries are your favorite for VIABLE and COMPETITIVE reasons. Remember that you may only vote for one submission and it is customary to bold it in your post. Electrolyte should return sometime around Saturday to close and tally the votes.

Good luck, everybody! :)

 

[sparktrain]

Heysup's Mienfoo

Well, there were plenty of checks this time around, and even some counters, but Mienfoo is by far the best. It can pretty much live forever with Regenerator and that sexy Drain Punch.

I'll also give a special mention to Sergetank's Wooper. It sets up on Dwebble and doesn't give a damn, and it's also way cooler than Mienfoo.

 

[Graycross]

Was really liking sparktrains Squirtle for a while, and it did some serious work sometimes. Heysup's Mienfoo however is much more reliable and gets my vote, consistently countering Dwebble as well as being useful in many other situations.

 

[ryan]

BadPandaPancham's Corphish

The only reason why I don't care for all the bulky Fighting-type submissions is that they're all just so obvious and overdone. I know there's a reason for that (they work), but Corphish is a new idea and still gets the job done well. Plus, anything with priority gets +1 in my book.

 

[leingodf8]

Well lets see, squirtle pretty much has to switch in on the shell smash to be a counter, wooper is sweet but has paper thin stats limiting its uses in the metagame, shellder koffing seel shellos corphis and gligar all die to too many rock blasts, ferroseed needs to get damn lucky with either parahax or lots of bullet seeds hitting for it to beat it, and scraggy meditite and pancham are generally outclassed for the role.

So that leaves either heysup's mienfoo, or atmoicllama's tirtouga. Lets see, the tirt set is more interesting, and something I'd personally be much more likely to run, but the mienfoo set is more reliable, having access to a decent form of recovery meaning it can switch in all the time. Also, it wasn't quoted in the original post I believe but tirt has a 20%ish chance to die to 5 hits from a +2 rock blast (so like a 2% chance in the grand scheme of things).

In any event, while I am loathe to do so I'm afraid I have to vote for Mienfoo, it just does it the best.

 

[dcae]

I've used Dwebble so much last gen I can recognize its greatest enemy with ease:

Mienfoo....

 

[Mylo Xyloto]

yeah, Mienfoo is probably the most viable check out there.

 

[Kavatika]

Any fighting type could potentially fill the role, however Heysup's Mienfoo is the most viable and most durable check there is, although I like Timburr.

 

[BadPandaPancham]

It's getting repetitive to vote for bulky fighting types each time we have a threat list. I would have to say Sergetank's Wooper for originality and rendering Dwebble's shell smashes utterly useless, though it doesn't have capability of doing much else on a team, well sort of. It still is kind of viable as a physical wall and anti-set up Pokemon as unaware can force a lot of switches which can be very beneficial.

 

[Chieliee]

Heysup's Mienfoo is the obvious winner i think

 

[Ray Jay]

Sergetank's Wooper. I also disagree that viability outside of countering the named Pokemon is a viable argument. That is important in teambuilding as a whole, but in terms of how the thread is being presented, I feel it's simply whichever Pokemon handles solely the opponent the best. Wooper isn't afraid of even crits (not out of the realm of a mathematical probability when looking at a multi hit move, I do feel some people have ignored this point) and handles Dwebble cleverly through safely setting up on its own.

 

[sparktrain]

Sergetank's Wooper. I also disagree that viability outside of countering the named Pokemon is a viable argument. That is important in teambuilding as a whole, but in terms of how the thread is being presented, I feel it's simply whichever Pokemon handles solely the opponent the best. Wooper isn't afraid of even crits (not out of the realm of a mathematical probability when looking at a multi hit move, I do feel some people have ignored this point) and handles Dwebble cleverly through safely setting up on its own.

In that case, you would have LOVED my Goomy last round

 

[unitard]

Wooper for the reasons Ray Jay gave. Also, Wooper allows you to attack Dwebble as it sets up since you can still switch Wooper in when Dwebble's at +2.

 

[Derrpy Hooves]

Um howzabout this set? Pretty good check:

Wooper @Eviolite
Ability: Unaware
Level: 5
EVs: 236 HP / 76 Atk / 156 Def
Nature: Impish
- Recover
- Toxic
- Encore
- Waterfall

First up: can trap into shell smash with encore. If that fails, this Wooper will be able to tank (due to unaware ignoring stat boosts). Toxic stall should be pretty self-explanatory from there. If all else fails, a 2HKO with Waterfall should be simple.

Added bonus: If opponent switches on the wrong turn, could get a free toxic onto something else.

 

[Electrolyte]

Ok so Heysup is the winner of this round again with his Mienfoo submission- congratulations to him!

However, after discussing a few things with people on irc regarding this thread's goals and future plans,

I have decided to remove the voting aspect of this thread.

Worries regarding elitism and bandwagoning have been brought to my attention, and I have realized that the vote seriously takes away from the learning aspect of this thread, turning it instead into a competition. So from now on, I will be collecting and making a compendium of checks / counters and then simply moving on. This way, everybody's submissions will count, and people will be more concerned with posting quality submissions as opposed to fighting to win the vote.

Still, I thank everyone that has participated with voting and submissions so far. This is not to say that everything that has been done so far was a waste; I will set up a list for all past victims / submissions as well when I get the time.

Anyway, let's continue with the actual discussion, shall we? This week's Victim will be Life Orb Yanma.

Yanma @ Life Orb
Level 5
Trait: Speed Boost
Modest nature
EVs: 240 SpA / 236 Spe
- Hypnosis
- Air Slash
- Bug Buzz
- Hidden Power Ground

Yanma is another top tier threat. What seems at first to be another useless insect that's x4 weak to Stealth Rock reveals itself as a super fast and relatively powerful sweeper that can easily wreck and clean up for its team. Its trademark Speed Boost ability is what got it banned last Gen, and now it's back for more fun. With an increasingly un-outpaceable Speed stat with every passing turn and coverage to hit most opponents at least neutrally and still very powerfully, what kinds of Pokemon and sets have you guys used to counter this thing? Discuss them here!

Some clarification:
Assume that Yanma has 100% HP.
Assume that Yanma is at +0 Spe at the beginning of the period on which you are attempting to counter it. That means that if you are switching into Yanma, it will boost its speed on that turn, and when actually facing it with your counter it will be at +1.
Assume that you will NOT be switching into Hypnosis if you include switching in as a capability of your counter. Keep in mind that however once you are in Yanma can use Hypnosis (with a 60% chance.)

At the end of the week, I'll put up a list of all the submissions sent in. Standard submission rules still apply. Have fun, guys!