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With CAP Premier League now officially behind us, the metagame council has moved to nerf both Venomicon and Venomicon-E.
Despite Venomicon-E losing Swords Dance and 8 Attack points in its Post Play Lookback, it has only continued to prove its status as a highly dangerous and ultimately unhealthy wallbreaker in the metagame. While Venomicon-E had seen use on hyper offense structures prior to CAPPL, these structures hadn't reached anywhere near the efficacy or commonality that they now exhibit; in combination with other strong wallbreakers like Kartana or late-game sweepers like Cawmodore, Venomicon-E is an incredible enabler for its teammates on HO teams with its ability easily force damage their overlapping answers, even being able to help insulate the archetype from some of its traditional annoyances like Arghonaut and Scarf Kartana. Moreover, Venomicon-E's place on teams outside of hard offenses is still cause for concern. It only takes one poison from Gunk Shot to effectively neuter Zapdos and Slowbro, two of its more reliable checks; Coil enables Venomicon-E to situationally bypass revenge killers like Weavile or even physical behemoths like Melmetal; defensive walls like Toxapex have a small but respectable chance to be KO'd by +1 into +0 Brave Bird/Gunk Shot; and Substitute lets it to turn Pokemon like Ferrothorn into setup fodder.
On the other hand, Venomicon-Prologue narrowly escaped a nerf during the PPL but has since become much more visibly problematic in the following months. Venomicon is a Pokemon that just about has it all: incredible coverage between Hurricane and Earth Power, offensive boosting in Nasty Plot, defensive snowballing in Stamina, great bulk with the freedom to invest fully in its special side, and a powerful defensive typing with a Toxic immunity as the cherry on top. These qualities make for a highly limited pool of reliable checks, leaving many teams resorting to the same picks over and over again or less consistent counterplay like Encore on faster Pokemon, namely Astrolotl. Even teams carrying multiple offensively threatening Pokemon like Stratagem, Tapu Koko, Tapu Lele, and Saharaja can still be overwhelmed in the long run due to these Pokemon's inability to repeatedly or reliably switch in; compounded by Venomicon's ability to easily enter on many of the tier's defensive staples and set up or heal, it has a true knack for just sticking around and threatening to win in even seemingly disadvantageous situations.
snake_rattler said:
1. The CAP Metagame Council identifies a broken/unhealthy threat. Input from the metagame discussion thread, Discord, high-level tournament replays, etc. are ways the community can voice their concerns to the CAP Metagame council.
2. The CAP Metagame Council begins a thread. The OP, written by the CAP Metagame Council, summarizes why the Pokemon is broken. Metagame shifts, game mechanics changing, or OU bans can be potential points. The CAP Metagame council will also include a checks and counters list. Hard-counters to soft-checks, hazard damage, relative ability to switch-in, etc. should be considered. Keep in mind that with the broken Pokemon in the metagame, we can continue to understand why it is broken.
3. In the thread, the community discusses the simplest solution(s) to making the CAP not broken. Here, we can well-define a new list of checks and counters. Some solutions may be changing its ability to one that's similar but not as good, reducing its speed tier, removing some of its bulk or attack, or removing a certain move or two from its movepool. The community will play a huge role in identifying what solutions are available, but CAP Metagame Council will have the final say on what nerf is implemented. Keep in mind that the nerf(s) that is(are) implemented MUST preserve the identity of the CAP (i.e. Necturna uses Sketch, Pajantom uses its powerful trapping move, etc.).
Okay so personally I dont think u really want to nuke attack / at least not that much since it is a Tinted Lens mon and realistically if you dont want it to be garbage it is going to bop the entire meta. I would say thats just inherently what comes with making a not bad tinted lens mon, it needs to actually make use of the ability well. Anyways, I think base 120 Speed is fucking DEMONIC for a mon with this damage output LOL, comparing it to something that also basically clicks its STABs because resists do not matter, Tapu Lele, I really think a Speed tier around that level is something more understandable honestly, stuff like Astroltl, Kartana, Nihilego, Blacephalon, and possibly even as low as Paj could be possible (although that might be a bittt too much), although definitely around the low 100s range should be the maximum speed this should go. Coil is another issue with this mon, I dont think it adds much in terms of how creatively this mon can be played but just gives another an option to make RKing it harder / punish Pokemon that try to cripple it and turn soft checks unnessecarily into setup fodder, would be happy if it got nuked. I think it has more than enough cool / creative viable move options already, and you stilll see stuff like KOff or SRocks Veno occasionally. I think with the Speed decrease and Coil nuke, it should be enough for this mon to be balanced, will probably still be a strong force to be reckoned with in the tier, although it will be infinitely much more managable to deal with, while not being unviable and still a fun mon to use!
note: if an attack nerf is what is settled on (which i dont think is the way its a lens mon its gna 2hko the entire tier or not do any damage theres no inbetween), i dont think we should be going any lower than 90/95, still want it to be a solid breaker i feel and if we go too low i dont think it'll really actually abuse lens and will be a mediocre / specific mon at best, since you cant make a 120 speed mon with lens and good offensive stab bad but dont want this to be a boring mon.
Venomicon Prologue
Okay this mon is what i will stand by being far more busted than its counterpart in its current state and it was a CRIME that it was also not nerfed most likely due to it being overlooked since pre-nerf Veno E was BEYOND stupid. Anyways, this is honestly a tough one, and I've struggled thinking of some way to nerf it whilst still maintaining the concept and base playstyle of the mon (because how it plays currently is fun af and really rewarding if you play well), and the concept of how it functions works great as well. However the simple thing is that it just works too well, I've seen it do some absolutely beyond absurd stuff like 1v1 Scarf Psyshock Lele and bust through Zapdos. Anyways, I think a bulk cut can easily become too much, and honestly its bulk currently isn't even too high, its Defense is really good, its SpD is solid, and you can probably cut a bit of off it but I don't want it to turn from a bulky slow wincon, akin to clef or reuni, into just a slow decently bulky setup sweeper, and i think the stamina interactions are quite key to how it functions. However, there is almost certainly a sweet spot bulk-wise that can be hit, although I'm not really sure what that is as of now, and ill probably update this post / make another if i find one i like and talk about it if I'm not lazy. Its actual moves and movepool have also been discussed, although for the latter 90% of the time its Plot Roost Cane EP so hitting its "coverage options" isn't going to do anything since its only coverage is EP. Its moves that it actually uses on the other hand, affecting EP might be an interesting way to go about it, although I'm not sure how since straight-up nuking it would make it kind of bad I feel, now walled by a good bit of other stuff like Roost Koko, Toxapex (although its more of a stalemate until Pex burns, and it has to be SpD IIRC, but cane misses help with this) much easier to pressure and harder for it to force things like Heatran out, which honestly might be a bit too far of a nerf for this mon. I'm a bit loss TBH with how to go about this, would love to see other people's angles on this^^
Since it wasn't explicitly stated in the OP I would like to remind everybody that any changes to movepool for either forme will remove it from the other as well. Probably doesn't need to be said but thought it was worth mentioning since I've seen a few ideas floating around on discord like axing Roost on Venom-E.
Will admit I'm a bit torn on which forme I think is more problematic, and how severe the problems with each one actually is. In a vacuum I'd say Venom-E causes more overall problems but in reality I don't think there's that much a difference between the two in terms of the scale of their impact. As such it's a bit difficult for me to place my thoughts on each of them individually but I'll give it a go nonetheless.
Something that stood out to me about Venom-E both during and after it's process was how our chosen method of balancing it's breaking power, using it's permanent SR weakness and BB recoil, ended up falling short in the face of what it was really capable of. And after it's initial tweaking these balancing factors still aren't exactly performing to expectations, with removal becoming increasingly more available and diverse as the metagame evolves and Venom itself having no shortage of opportunities to set-up. Removing Coil is a pretty obvious solution that's been tossed around a lot for a while now and while it does lower Venom's ceiling a bit but I don't think it will lower it's impact to a satisfying degree.
An idea I had (which I know is going to be unpopular but bear with me here) is the combined removal of Coil & Substitute (and maaaaybe a lil less Atk to alter some rolls but I got nothing specific in mind atm). Universal TM shenanigans aside I think removing both of these would adequately limit the amount of free turns Venom is able to generate and thus put a cap on just how much breaking it's able to do in any given game. Removing these also opens up more room for using it's cool utility options it's always had but never found much opportunity to utilize.
This next one isn't a serious consideration I've made but it's as interesting thought nonetheless, as there is something to be said about removing Gunk Shot to deny Venom a recoilless (and contactless) breaking option to muscle around checks like Zapper. Would firmly consider this a minor nerf in the grand scheme and would do very little on it's own but it's something to consider alongside other proposals.
Prologue has honestly been a big head-scratcher for me for a while now. It's one of those guys that on paper you think you've got a handle on it's situation but somehow manages to prove you wrong in practice more often than not. It's kind of a perfect storm, making it difficult to pinpoint any one aspect as the problem child and excising it without tanking the mon as a whole. I'm pretty firmly against axing Earth Power, it's a single change but one that would have one of the greatest negative impacts on the mons viability (just short of axing Nasty Plot) and frankly I don't want Venom to be guttered because it is a fun mon to use.
Hitting it's stats in some way has always kinda felt like the right course for me but in what way is a bit alluding. Tentatively I think a hit to it's SpDef is a good course to go down, iirc something like -15 would push it into guaranteed 2HKO range of defensive Zap's discharge and in general opening more ways for Venom to be smacked up harder would lessen it's ability to just sit in front of shit and pull itself up from really dodgy situations. -Def in some capacity is something to think about to potentially give it less freedom on what it can come in/stay in on and start snowballing but specific numbers allude me atm. There is also the general issue with stat nerfs being that we have to preserve BST and that limits how much we can mess with either formes dump stats to achieve large stat nerfs, lest they stop being dump stats. Don't think it would come to that but something to keep in mind.
Like I said, head scratcher lol. I'm not married to any idea on a Prologue nerf but I think cutting into it's bulk a tad feels the most correct out of the ideas I've had/seen thus far.
For Prologue I think we need to bite the bullet and give it a hard nerf to its attacking power. I know people are going to be against this because the mon is strong and fun to use properly, but I mean that's often true of most Pokemon that are too strong. Even something braindead like Dracovish had some enjoyment with using because its ability to get OHKOs/2HKOs was unparalleled and simply watching the opponent drop was cruelly satisfying. Didn't stop everyone from wanting to see it go away. If we think Prologue is a problem to account for in the builder and an annoyance to dance around during battle we need to stop trying to preserve "funness" and actually make the damn thing competitively balanced.
I would like to see something done about either Hurricane or Earth Power.
I will start with the former because it's the most novel. Removing Hurricane was something D2 mentioned considering on Discord and now that such a suggestion has entered my brainspace I honestly think this would be a fantastic way to make Prologue easier to manage. Hurricane isn't a reliable move by any means due to 70% accuracy, but those moments when it does hit comes with the risk of having your Prologue answer get confused, which can invalidate it as an answer if the Prologue player wants to play into that, or just switch out normally with the added benefit that your Zapdos might be prevented from successfully using Roost or whatever. Hurricane doesn't feel like too much of an issue on other mons, even on other Pokemon with Nasty Plot like TornT, because nothing of the sort is simultaneously as dangerous or bulky as Prologue is. Like if Zap canes me and I get confused that sucks, but it's a Zapdos it's not setting up hazards or boosting or anything. We're dealing with a fat setup sweeper which much of the metagame can struggle to OHKO or even 2HKO. This isn't the kind of thing you're comfortable giving free turns to, and its ability to compromise checks if it gets even a little lucky can cause things to snowball out of control, even if Prologue itself isn't the one breaking through said checks directly. Hurricane adds too much randomness to Prologue interactions for me to feel comfortable about it, and if we wanted this to be easier for the metagame to handle, I honestly find this to be a very promising route.
Air Slash is certainly a big step down from Hurricane in the power department but I do think this gets the job done well enough to work out. Coincides well with the nerf to Pyroak thankfully:
+2 0 SpA Venomicon Air Slash vs. 0 HP / 252 SpD Pyroak: 384-452 (100.7 - 118.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
The flinch chance does sound annoying, as it is, but I think it's less of a problem than Hurricane for our purposes. Right now if a Hurricane target is slower than Prologue, its taking both heavy damage and dealing with a confusion chance, all the while being at disadvantage in the 1v1 game because Prologue always has the initiative. Air Slash may have better hax odds thanks to accuracy, but the damage being worse means without hax you're not pressuring the opponent nearly as much. The threat of Hurricane hitting is something the opponent always has to consider and no amount of "they already hit 3 what's the odds they hit a 4th" copium is going to plot armor your way to safety. More importantly, Air Slash is only flinching Pokemon slower than Prologue: anything coming in that's faster than it, like Zapdos, Rotom, Saharaja, etc. are both taking less immediate damage and not risking a Confusion chance in the process, making more aggressive counterplay way more reliable and rewarding to pull off. Basically Air Slash still provides it a way to muscle past slower Pokemon as you'd probably want from a bulky setup sweeper, but without the immediate BS that Hurricane comes packaged with.
Right now removing Hurricane is my favorite option of any Prologue nerf: it's a significant drop in power that makes answering it less complicated or reliant on out-of-control factor for a lot of Pokemon, while preserving some of the cool shit Prologue does like eat 90% of hits in the metagame and click Roost or make the opponent think twice about mindlessly clicking the funny Knock Off/U-Turn buttons and it also bullies Clefable.
As for Earth Power this just gives book less stuff it deletes like Heatran, Toxapex, Magnezone, Koko, and in general freeing up more potential checks and letting mons that can deal heavy damage to it come in easier makes sense as a nerf. Mystical Fire can complicate things a tad but getting a SpA drop should usually be better than losing a mon. We've discussed this one to death and if people are scared of Mystical Fire we can just give it some other move like has also already been proposed.
TL/DR I strongly support removing Hurricane to make Prologue counterplay safer and more consistent for faster Pokemon.
I still find Removing Coil to be the simplest way to reduce Epilogue's threat level. SD was broken because you had zero switchins after a boost, and any free turns you could generate (forced switches, sacks, other nonsense) would put you in a serious advantage. Coil isn't as explosive but it offers a different route for Epilogue to get out of hand, which is preventing the opponent from KOing it. The current example is the CAPPL game where Epilogue stalls out a Melmetal of Double Iron Bash thanks to the defense boost from Coil. I don't think this is a perfect example as Earthquake could have been used to better preserve Bash PP, but note that the damage EQ dealt was less than Bash and could have let Epilogue gain back HP instead of losing it, making the situation disadvantageous either way, especially as the Epilogue user could avoid using Roost to bait out an EQ and Coil again. The threat now becomes needing to both have something in that can live boosted Brave Birds, while also capable of doing something productive in return in the face of its increased Defense.
I think Epilogue is easiest to handle when its ways of mitigating HP loss and finding opportunities to Roost is lessened, and removing Coil would make this more difficult for Epilogue to achieve. Substitute has also brought controversary but I don't know where we stand on our ability to remove it, and I feel its not as problematic as Coil is because Sub both cuts HP and doesn't boost any stats. Yeah you can Sub in front of some Ferrothorn and it's not able to do much about it, but how much are you doing in return? What if they just get Spikes up, sack it, and then go into Specs Pult or Weavile or Melmetal? If you had Coil the last two might be trivialized, but now you simply risk compromising Epilogue. And this is all assuming Ferro isn't Gyro in the first place. It's a much worse interaction for Epilogue when it has no means of boosting Defense and Attack.
Other changes like removing Gunk Shot so it's fully reliant on contact moves (which are easier to exploit), making it slower so more stuff threatens it offensively, or just an Attack nerf are certainly options and you could maybe combine some of them for a more cohesive final package, and I wouldn't be opposed to dropping max Speed below 370 so AV Torn catches both it and Cawmodore.
I would like to try and craft a concrete "nerf package" at some point in the future but it feels too early to start making any sort of finalized proposals, discussion's only begun today and we have a good amount of time left.
disclaimer: I am more into helping to make CAPs than playing CAP metagame so some of my takes may come off as plain wrong
what my inclination to participating in the creation process gives me, however, is knowledge ofthe pokemon's identity - what exactly that CAP was created for. And I'm seeing quite a few people making suggestions that would remove the CAP's identity. What I'm going to do here is give my thoughts on how the books can have their major issues fixed while still keeping their identity intact.
The common consensus on nerfing Venomicon-E seems to be to remove Coil. This makes a lot of sense on paper, but what people seem to be forgetting is why we chose to give Venomicon-E a set-up move in the first place - to allow for counterplay. Quoting quizel from the Defining Moves stage here:
I said this before, but I feel that giving 30i access to Swords Dance or Nasty Plot could allow for a lot healthier response patterns. Consider how annoying it is to deal with Kyurem, with its ability to 2HKO literally everything, vs a wallbreaker such as Hydreigon which, earlier in the gen, which, despite having a lower power level (lower secondary stab damage), could still break just about everything, but had a bit more leeway to play against because it didn't just KO everything at +0. Aka SD/NP let us lower our attack, thus making counterplay easier, while still giving us the ability to actually break things, albeit over a longer period of time (poison typing works great with that). Its an excellent choice for a defining move for spreads that are more open to playing the long game rather than just clicking. Make Swords Dance and Nasty Plot defining moves.
This is especially important when you taken into consideration Venomicon-E's original nerf of losing 8 Attack points, bringing it down to 102. Tinted Lens and the Vile Vial are great, but going just off the average Attack stat may end up making Venomicon-E's power just a little too squishy.
Where Coil does concern me is its defensive capabilities. The game shshowner linked is a great example of how Coil can shut down its most important checks. But I think blaming this solely on Coil is being a little too narrow-minded, for lack of a better term. There's also its great defensive typing, but changing that could have disastrous effects on the entire mon's identity as a whole. What does interest me in terms of how Venomicon-E and Coil interact are Venomicon-E's defensive stats. 85 in both HP and Defense doesn't sound too great at first glance, but combine them together, and it suddenly becomes a lot harder to break through this mon.
With this in mind, here are my two ideas for fixing the Coil problem while still keeping the original reasoning intact:
1: -Coil, +Work Up
This removes the risk of defensive snowballing while still keeping Venomicon-E's ability to boost and keep pressure on the opponent. I wanted to put Sharpen as the replacement but it's not in Gen 8 I don't think that there's any worry in Venomicon potentially becoming a scary mixed sweeper, considering its base Special Attack is only 63.
2: Keep Coil, -20 Defense
While this does retain Venomicon-E's ability to defensively snowball, the lower base Defense will allow opponents to still do big damage to Venomicon-E even at +1. This, combined with Brave Bird recoil, will not only make Venomicon-E even more weak to revenge killing by the likes of Weavile and Zeraora, it will make it a lot more risky for Venomicon-E to Roost in tight situations and to stall out opponents in general. Going back to the Melmetal issue:
85 base Defense Venomicon-E: 252+ Atk Iron Fist Melmetal Double Iron Bash (2 hits) vs. +1 0 HP / 0 Def Venomicon-Epilogue: 212-252 (68.1 - 81%) -- approx. 2HKO
65 base Defense Venomicon-E: 252+ Atk Iron Fist Melmetal Double Iron Bash (2 hits) vs. +1 0 HP / 0 Def Venomicon-Epilogue: 264-312 (84.8 - 100.3%) -- approx. 6.3% chance to OHKO
That tiny chance to OHKO makes a WORLD of difference. And that chance to OHKO goes up even further when you take into Brave Bird recoil into consideration. Both of these changes would allow Venomicon-E to still maintain a powerful offensive presence while making its counterplay even better.
My ideas on how to change Venomicon-P are the exact opposite to my ideas on how to change Venomicon-E. This is a comedic way of saying that Nasty Plot needs to be removed from Venomicon's moveset. I was never keen on having Nasty Plot given to Venomicon-P, mainly because it goes against the role we chose for it initially - a tank. Quoting Darek from the Defining Moves stage:
For 30b, however, I don't really find boosting to be of any particular benefit to us. Between STABs, Body Press, additional coverage, and Roost, 30b already struggles with moves lots and thus likely can't afford boosting anyway. Nor is boosting pro-concept either: Tanks excel in their ability to trade hits, and as such threaten immediate power instead of boosting more often than not. Giving 30b boosting puts limits on our stats that prevents it from having as much immedeate pressure as we'd like.
The bolded part here is especially essential as it explains why exactly boosting does not fit the role of a tank. And by giving Venomicon Nasty Plot, we went against its concept and turned it from a tank into a bulky sweeper. Plus, Nasty Plot is just way too powerful on Venomicon-P - its Special Attack is already good, but with Nasty Plot it goes to a whole nother level:
0 SpA Venomicon Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Tapu Koko: 188-222 (66.9 - 79%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
vs
+2 0 SpA Venomicon Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Tapu Koko: 374-442 (133 - 157.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
0 SpA Venomicon Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Toxapex: 112-132 (36.8 - 43.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
vs
+2 0 SpA Venomicon Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Toxapex: 220-260 (72.3 - 85.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 SpA Venomicon Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Heatran: 208-248 (53.8 - 64.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
vs
+2 0 SpA Venomicon Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Heatran: 412-488 (106.7 - 126.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
0 SpA Venomicon Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 244 SpD Melmetal: 156-184 (37.9 - 44.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
vs
+2 0 SpA Venomicon Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 244 SpD Melmetal: 310-366 (75.4 - 89%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Venomicon Hurricane vs. 0 HP / 252 SpD Pyroak: 282-332 (74 - 87.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
vs
+2 0 SpA Venomicon Hurricane vs. 0 HP / 252 SpD Pyroak: 560-662 (146.9 - 173.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
0 SpA Venomicon Hurricane vs. 128 HP / 108+ SpD Revenankh: 206-246 (58.3 - 69.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
vs
+2 0 SpA Venomicon Hurricane vs. 128 HP / 108+ SpD Revenankh: 414-488 (117.2 - 138.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
0 SpA Venomicon Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Landorus-Therian: 114-135 (29.8 - 35.3%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
vs
+2 0 SpA Venomicon Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Landorus-Therian: 226-267 (59.1 - 69.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Venomicon Hurricane vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Pajantom: 126-148 (40.7 - 47.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
vs
+2 0 SpA Venomicon Hurricane vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Pajantom: 249-294 (80.5 - 95.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
mamma mia that's quite the damage increase!
In addition, the removal of Nasty Plot will open up Venomicon's moveset quite a bit, allowing for it to run moves that allow it to become the tank it was always meant to be, like Toxic, Knock Off, Stealth Rock, U-turn, or even Mystical Fire. Removing Nasty Plot is a simple but effective nerf that doesn't ruin Venomicon-P's viability and allows it to find a niche on more types of teams.
alright that's enough rambling from me for today... I hope you guys find my ideas interesting!
I think we can use this opportunity to focus in on where both formes have settled in the metagame.
Venomicon-E is a useful tool for hyper offense teams that appreciate its ability to force damage onto Pokemon like Zapdos. Setup isn't necessarily its job; its goal is to chip opposing walls into range of other sweepers. Therefore, I propose the following changes for Venomicon-E:
-Coil, +8 Atk
This removes all physical setup from the forme while reverting its Attack back to its pre-nerf state. This ensures that Venomicon-E will still do its job on hyper offense, and do it well, without the looming threat of it randomly sweeping.
Venomicon is less straightforward. If it was possible I would love to nerf its SpD to put it in range on Koko Tbolt; however, this would require an insane stat nerf, something on the magnitude of -20, so I don't think that is a good option. I also do not think removing Earth Power, which is partly what makes Venomicon so unique and threatening, is a good idea. That leaves us with one option: remove Hurricane. This forces Venomicon to rely completely on Air Slash, whose much lower base power grants defensive checks more chances to switch into it consistently. There is no real worry about Air Slash flinches being a problem given Venomicon's low Speed, and this may force some of its investment to go to the SpA stat. It still retains its status as a bulky sweeper, just without the initial offensive presence Hurricane grants it.
The majority of this post gets pretty bogged down in details about roles that don't really add to the conversation and opinions from users that don't necessarily reflect current views of Venom. The roles we select when making a mon are not a single all encompassing thing, the vast majority of competitively viable mons offer multiple roles and these roles often have overlap. Venom being a bulky set-up sweeper does not mean it's not also performing a Tank role, because these roles are not mutually exclusive. Regardless of that though, what's more important is what roles the mon actually has right now, even if it's not exactly what we planned for it. We should be seeking to keep both formes set in the niches they currently fulfill and are successful in but reducing their slightly overbearing impact. (And for the record Venom-E's role is very much still a wallbreaker, set-up is not intrinsic to the mon's niche)
I wasn't super big on any particular Venom-P nerf as I stated previously but after reading shnows (and dexs who posted while writing this) posts and some discord discussion and thinking it over it really feels like removing Hurricane is the magic solution to our problems here. It doesn't alter Venom's gameplan, it just makes it have to work harder for it. Air Slash doesn't carry the same annoying feast-or-famine caveats Hurricane does making it more consistent to face for both players involved, and it sufficiently lower's Venom's damage ceiling to give it's checks an ounce more breathing room. Obviously we've still only just started and there's a lot left to go but this idea really inspires joy.
For Prologue, I support -Hurricane but not -Earth Power. I don't think removing Hurricane would make it significantly worse, in fact no longer having to worry about missing as much is really nice, but the power difference is still notable and it can't confuse its checks anymore while flinching isn't an issue unless you're running it on a Trick Room team. Removing Earth Power, however, makes it Heatran bait, and Pokemon that can't make a dent in Heatran when it has no balloon tend to be bad. I would also support a slight Sp. Defense drop like -12 (which guarantees 1+ Koko OHKOs it), but not a super big hit like what Pyroak got.
As for Epilogue, I actually kinda like the idea of removing Gunk Shot. Now it solely has to rely on contact moves and there is no way it can hit Zapdos without risking getting paralyzed. I don't love the idea of removing Coil, since I feel as though its breaking power is such a large part of its identity, but I would support it if it got that +8 Attack back like dex suggested.
I can't really say that I'm on the "Remove Hurricane" train. Granted, I wouldn't really be opposed to it, but I just don't think it really addresses the elephant in the room, which is that Venomicon's special bulk is just way too high in it's current state.
0 SpA Zapdos Discharge vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Venomicon: 162-192 (43.3 - 51.3%) -- 5.5% chance to 2HKO
While I understand that Defensive Zapdos isn't exactly the biggest powerhouse in the metagame, this is still just way too little damage for what should be a very consistent check for Venomicon. Ideally, I would like to see -20 Special Defense as this guarantees that defensive Zapdos can 2HKO us, and in general just opens up a lot more room from counterplay from special attackers.
While I would like for this part of the post to end here and for me to just move onto Epilogue, I have yet to address the elephant in the room, which is that there is a bit of backlash behind the idea of dropping Venomicon's Special Defense this much, as one common thing I hear in discussions regarding Venomicon is that people tend to like Venomicon having a degree of special bulk as it adds something to the tier. As such, a compromise needs to be made in this department. I personally like Brown4Sides' suggestion of -12 Special Defense the most here, as it changes the calc I posted above to this:
0 SpA Zapdos Discharge vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Venomicon: 176-210 (47 - 56.1%) -- 80.1% chance to 2HKO
While it's still not guaranteed, this is an incredibly good improvement and makes Defensive Zapdos a far more reliable check to Venomicon. It also does few other things quite nicely, such as giving Timid Choice Scarf Tapu Lele a small chance to OHKO with Psychic (Along with boosting Modest Tapu Lele's chance to OHKO) and guarantees that Galarian Slowking can 2HKO with Psychic. While I do think an argument can be made to lower Special Defense a bit less can be lowered, I personally think that this is the perfect value that should satisfy both sides of this argument to a degree.
252 SpA Tapu Lele Psychic vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Venomicon in Psychic Terrain: 324-384 (86.6 - 102.6%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO
252+ SpA Tapu Lele Psychic vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Venomicon in Psychic Terrain: 356-420 (95.1 - 112.2%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO
124 SpA Slowking-Galar Psychic vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Venomicon: 200-236 (53.4 - 63.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Also, while not major, I would also like to replace Mystical Fire with Burning Jealousy. While Venomicon prefers to run Earth Power over Mystical Fire 95% of the time, as it simply provides better coverage, facing Venomicon with Mystical Fire just feels unnecessarily frustrating since the Special Attack drops can just completely shut off some of Venomicon's counterplay when played correctly. That being said, I don't view Fire coverage in of itself to be problematic in the slightest, and it does see enough use on something like Trick Room to be worth preserving, so I think making sure that it retains a Fire-type attack would be something I would like to do.
Regarding Epilogue:
I don't really have a whole lot too say regarding Epilogue to be quite honest. Unlike with Prologue, I'm pretty much on board with the direction that the thread is currently going in right now, and that is that we should remove Coil and I would like to emphasize that we absolutely should not replace it with another set-up move. While something like Sharpen doesn't carry the added defensive boost, which allows for stuff like what happened in jonflich vs crying to happen, the fact of the matter here is that Epilogue simply just has way good of a combination of power and speed to be given free access to offensive boosting. Beyond removing Coil however, I don't really think any else needs to be done. I really don't think removing Substitute would be necessary, since I think that all of the problems regarding the move are dealt with by just axing Coil (And also because I don't want to have to go through the headache involved with justification for axing a universal move). I'm also not entirely sure if I'm completely on board with adding the lost Attack from the previous nerf back either, as I think Epilogue will still be in a good state even after losing Coil.
Regarding the thread song:
Never let spoo choose music for nerf threads ever again. The thread song makes Nickelback look like Beethoven.
I would like to chime in with an idea for tackling both mons in the same slot. We could reduce the shared HP stat. Doing so makes the BB recoil more noticeable as it would be taking a larger percentage of health from ebook and also eats away at the overall bulk of pbook. It also has the added benefit of not creating weird BST dump stat balancing issues since both HPs would receive the same reduction. This would still need to be accompanied by additional changes though.
I will also mention I am not a fan of removing Earth Power from pbook since Flying+Ground coverage helps set itself apart in a tier saturated with flying types.
Haven't had a chance to read all yet, but just want to note about Substitute: a reason I like for removing it from eBook, is so it can't avoid being RK'd by things like Gem / non-TA Syclant / Koko etc. It also allows portBro + the aforementioned to be a strategy vs it, without having to run ice beam on bro or whatev.
I am pretty on board with removing Hurricane and Coil. Seems like a clean way to limit the breaking power of both forms. I don't really need to elaborate on the reasoning, its been well discussed already.
Idk if we need to buff ebook's Attack if we axe Coil? It would definitely remove it more from the hard wallbreaker/cleaner role, but early on during the process the idea was thrown around for a utility attacker. The books still have all their utility moves intact with Thunder Wave, Toxic, U-turn, Stealth Rock, and Knock Off. Maybe ebook just throws one of these moves onto its moveset now that Coil, and likely Substitute by extension, isn't making the slot. I think you would still have enough reason and even role compression to fit ebook on a team.
I would like to chime in with an idea for tackling both mons in the same slot. We could reduce the shared HP stat. Doing so makes the BB recoil more noticeable as it would be taking a larger percentage of health from ebook and also eats away at the overall bulk of pbook. It also has the added benefit of not creating weird BST dump stat balancing issues since both HPs would receive the same reduction. This would still need to be accompanied by additional changes though.
Been thinking about this idea a bit. I do appreciate how efficient it seeks to be by tackling both formes simultaneously, but more I think about it the more I think it kind of falls short. You have to reduce HP pretty substantially to increase BB recoil a noticeable amount, which is a drop we may not be comfortable doing the same for on Venom-P as we still want it to have good defensive value. Likewise, the added effect of reducing Venom-E's bulk is also achievable through axing Coil, which also tempers the damage output side of things as well. It was suggested this nerf would have to coincide with some other changes but tbh there's not much I can think of I'd feel comfortable doing in tandem with a significant shared HP hit (but hey, maybe that feeling is a sign it's a good route, who knows).
On topic of other nerfs, had a bit more of a think of -Hurricane. When the idea was thrown out spoo brought up that Air Slash is being a bit overestimated as a next-best STAB and after seeing some calcs it's not hard to see why.
0 SpA Venomicon Air Slash vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Kartana: 222-262 (85.7 - 101.1%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO
+2 0 SpA Venomicon Air Slash vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Dragapult: 235-277 (74.1 - 87.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 0 SpA Venomicon Air Slash vs. 252 HP / 56+ SpD Clefable: 174-205 (44.1 - 52%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Venomicon Air Slash vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Urshifu-Rapid-Strike: 282-332 (82.6 - 97.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO this one in particular man holy shit lol
Obviously the entire point of axing cane is to decrease it's breaking power (and consistency bs nobody likes) but that definitely feels pretty extreme. Being forced to plot twice (or at all) vs a lot of the shit you want to check with it is pretty lame. And it's not like one can divest a bit of it's usual bulk invest into Spa either as you need a pretty considerable shift to push these into 2hko/ohko range, losing out on a lot of Venoms defensive value which is also pretty lame.
Sadly there isn't really a workable solution to this aside of actively buffing Venom's stats (SpDef buffs were briefly and loosely discussed as a way to give EV freedom and not lose out on defensive value so dramatically) which is a whole other can of worms that may or may not go against the entire reason why we're here in the first place. I don't know how I feel about -Hurricane as a whole anymore, I want to think it's a good approach still but it's definitely not nearly as pleasant a route as I'd thought before.
Yeah, those calcs really are making me rethink removing Hurricane too. 75 BP is pretty bad for a STAB move, and Nasty Plot isn't enough to save it. That being said, I think removing Hurricane could still work if it got a SpA buff to go along with it. Nothing too major obviously, but the idea that it might not be able to OHKO Kartana is ridiculous. I don't think it'd be a bad idea to explore removing Hurricane but buffing its SpAttack essentially to the point where it would feel like it was using a 80-90 BP Flying STAB on its previous SpA. I also think that if we went this way we should also replace Earth Power with Scorching Sands or even Mud Shot, as I don't love the idea of making its Earth Powers stronger when we're trying to nerf it. We could also replace Nasty Plot with Work Up depending on how much its SpA would be raised.
EDIT: I should include some calcs of my own. A SpA buff of +18 ensures that an unboosted Air Slash can OHKO Urshifu after Stealth Rock:
0 SpA Venomicon Air Slash vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Urshifu-Rapid-Strike: 320-378 (93.8 - 110.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
While still being weaker than before:
(118 SpA) +2 0 SpA Venomicon Hurricane vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Dragapult: 343-405 (108.2 - 127.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
(136 SpA) +2 0 SpA Venomicon Air Slash vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Dragapult: 265-313 (83.5 - 98.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
(118 SpA) +2 0 SpA Venomicon Hurricane vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Tapu Lele: 241-285 (85.7 - 101.4%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
(136 SpA) +2 0 SpA +2 0 SpA Venomicon Air Slash vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Tapu Lele: 186-220 (66.1 - 78.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
EDIT 2: spoo sniped while I was editing this so I'll just leave this as is for now
EDIT 3: Forget about what I said regarding Scorching Sands. The burn chance is pretty anti-concept for a mon built around a defense boosting ability.
Air Slash is worth pursuing for a lot of reasons I think. The current dynamic of "when Hurricane lands, Venom is OP; when Hurricane misses, Venom is useless" is just uncompetitive and a bit too pronounced right now. When we're nerfing base Venom, though, we're kind of forced to treat Hurricane as if it's 100% accurate; you can't claim to be prepared against Venom in the builder because it'll just miss its attacks. But, it obviously will miss its moves some of the time, meaning there's going to be a disparity between its "intended" strength and how strong it (sometimes) is in-game. Replacing Hurricane with Air Slash minimizes this external factor and helps to standardize its intended strength with its strength in reality.
The catch is that Air Slash unequivocally sucks. I really can't emphasize this point enough. People ITT are seriously overselling Air Slash's strength and underselling how godawful it would make Venom without any compensation to balance it out. Here are a lot of relevant calcs:
4 SpA Venomicon Air Slash vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Kartana: 222-262 (85.7 - 101.1%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO
4 SpA Venomicon Hurricane vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Kartana: 325-384 (125.4 - 148.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
4 SpA Venomicon Air Slash vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Urshifu-Rapid-Strike: 284-336 (83.2 - 98.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
4 SpA Venomicon Hurricane vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Urshifu-Rapid-Strike: 414-488 (121.4 - 143.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 4 SpA Venomicon Air Slash vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Weavile: 213-252 (75.8 - 89.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 4 SpA Venomicon Hurricane vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Weavile: 312-367 (111 - 130.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 4 SpA Venomicon Air Slash vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Tapu Lele: 165-195 (58.7 - 69.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 4 SpA Venomicon Hurricane vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Tapu Lele: 241-285 (85.7 - 101.4%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO
+2 4 SpA Venomicon Air Slash vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Dragapult: 235-277 (74.1 - 87.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 4 SpA Venomicon Hurricane vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Dragapult: 345-406 (108.8 - 128%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 4 SpA Venomicon Air Slash vs. 248 HP / 44 SpD Tapu Fini: 144-171 (41.9 - 49.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+2 4 SpA Venomicon Hurricane vs. 248 HP / 44 SpD Tapu Fini: 211-249 (61.5 - 72.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 4 SpA Venomicon Air Slash vs. 252 HP / 56+ SpD Clefable: 174-205 (44.1 - 52%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 4 SpA Venomicon Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 56+ SpD Clefable: 255-301 (64.7 - 76.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 4 SpA Venomicon Air Slash vs. 88 HP / 0 SpD Saharaja: 150-177 (49.5 - 58.4%) -- 66.8% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 4 SpA Venomicon Hurricane vs. 88 HP / 0 SpD Saharaja: 219-258 (72.2 - 85.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
This is so pitiful to me... unboosted, you have only a 12.5% chance to OHKO the mon with 59/31 special bulk. You aren't even 2HKOing Scarf Fini or Clefable at +2. At +2, you have a 0% chance to OHKO Dragapult after Rocks. This is all with your main STAB attack. If you see these calcs and still argue that Venom would be a viable wincondition without Hurricane, I'm really not sure what to tell you.
The natural response is that Venom would shift to investing in Special Attack. This response makes sense, but I think it's also missing the point a little bit. Venom lives and dies by its ability to soak attacks on both ends of the spectrum. If it wants to reach benchmarks even comparable to Hurricane, the required investment is huge: 72+ SpA to OHKO Kartana, 112+ to OHKO Urshifu-R, 232+ to OHKO Weavile at +2, and so on. Divesting this much from SpD not only makes Venom far worse, but also lessens arguably the best quality it provides to the tier - its bulk. Having a soft check to Dragapult, Heatran, Pyroak, etc is actually super cool for a lot of teams. Venom is unhealthy in many ways, but the tier still appreciates its defensive utility. Why get rid of this? The goal here is not to kneecap Venom in the kind of way that -Hurricane implies.
I think any discussion surrounding Air Slash should be centered around what buffs we can give Venom - probably to its stats - to counterbalance Air Slash being so weak. This is a tricky question though. Should we buff its SpA so that it can get close to its old benchmarks? Buff SpD so that it has more of a buffer to divest, also making it easier to set up to +4? Maybe even buff Speed? I don't really have a good answer to this (though I will say that you need a big SpA buff to start hitting OHKOs/2HKOs again). If we can make an Air Slash "package" work, I think it's probably ideal - it will just be very hard to do correctly.
---
Something else I'd like to bring up is removing Earth Power and Mystical Fire while adding Burning Jealousy. I really disagree with the notion that Mystical Fire is much worse than EP and removing EP alone would gut the mon. This feels very much like a Venom-E situation, in that people thought Coil was a significant downgrade to SD until it actually started using it. Here's a (rough) list of Venom C&C with EP/Mystical Fire to illustrate what I mean:
The defining matchup is Heatran (which is still far from a hard counter), but outside of that, they seem roughly even to me. Without the ability to drop Special Attack, though, I think Burning Jealousy is an interesting option that keeps Venom's strong matchup into many Steels while adding a couple more reliable checks:
These lists don't account for things like Fire coverage immediately pressuring Ferro/Weav, checking Kart without the miss chance, needing to rely on inaccurate Hurricanes vs Poison-types, doing less damage into Melm, etc, but I think they do a good enough job at illustrating how Venom's main matchups are affected - curious to hear what others have to say about this change.
On the subject of -Hurricane for Venomicon-Prologue:
A concern that's been brought up by some users is the dramatic decrease in power from Hurricane to Air Slash (namely spoo, and zeta after sniping me, and then spoo again after sniping me after zeta did it and already having mentioned him). This means that our primary STAB Attack and best neutral option becomes 30% weaker in terms of BP. It needs to be stressed how significant of a drop in power this is: a lot of KOs or 2HKOs Venomicon is able to threaten normally just aren't possible anymore.
0 SpA Venomicon Hurricane vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Kartana: 324-382 (125 - 147.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
0 SpA Venomicon Air Slash vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Kartana: 222-262 (85.7 - 101.1%) -- 50% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 0 SpA Venomicon Hurricane vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Dragapult: 343-405 (108.2 - 127.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 0 SpA Venomicon Air Slash vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Dragapult: 235-277 (74.1 - 87.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
0 SpA Venomicon Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Arghonaut: 272-324 (65.7 - 78.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Venomicon Air Slash vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Arghonaut: 186-222 (44.9 - 53.6%) -- 35.2% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
(Argh is faster so you're going to struggle to break it with Air Slash vs Hurricane, moreso if SpDef invested)
+2 0 SpA Venomicon Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Ferrothorn: 238-282 (67.6 - 80.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO Leftovers recovery and Leech Seed recovery
+2 0 SpA Venomicon Air Slash vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Ferrothorn: 163-193 (46.3 - 54.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO Leftovers recovery and Leech Seed recovery
(Leech Seed is added since you're likely using Ferro as a chance to set up, and it would in response try to cripple you in the process).
Part of the goal of removing Hurricane in the first place is making it less threatening, of course, but that's mostly with regards to faster checks whose ability to handle Venomicon is frustrated by the 30% Confusion chance. If Venomicon wants to serve as a wincon, it needs to be threatening these OHKOs and 2HKOs as it does now.
I've been messing around with stats to see if there's a way to preserve some of the immediate danger Venomicon presents if we were to remove Hurricane, while considering that said changes need to be weighed carefully so that some other aspect of Venomicon isn't made problematic, and preserving BST at 540 to not potentially mess with Epilogue in any way. Would like to make clear now, this isn't meant to be a finalized submission or "here's what we should do to fix Venom" sort of post, but rather me trying to workshop ideas and spark discussion on what kind of direction we want to take. I really like the idea of removing Hurricane because it does a lot of good in many places, but the drawback of having to go all the way down to Air Slash is pretty severe and unfortunately we don't have any realistic alternatives unless you want to give out Restricted moves (and trust me the last thing Venomicon needs is Oblivion Wing).
What I've come up with so far is the following adjustments:
130 Special Attack, when combined with the leftover 4 EVs relocated from Defense, does a fair bit to bring Air Slash to a more respectable level.
This ensures that Kartana is OHKO'd after Stealth Rock, with over 60% odds to KO otherwise:
4 SpA Venomicon Air Slash vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Kartana: 243-286 (93.8 - 110.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
Threaten Pult after Plot and SR damage:
+2 4 SpA Venomicon Air Slash vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Dragapult: 256-303 (80.7 - 95.5%) -- 50% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
Actually scare out Urshifu-R with a potential OHKO:
4 SpA Venomicon Air Slash vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Urshifu-Rapid-Strike: 306-362 (89.7 - 106.1%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
And you practically force Argh to Recover if it comes in on Air Slash with Rocks up:
4 SpA Venomicon Air Slash vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Arghonaut: 204-240 (49.2 - 57.9%) -- 96.5% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
This all comes with the added benefit of better accuracy and 24 PP versus 16.
A Special Attack buff would, in turn, make Earth Power a fair bit stronger as well, so I did want to check how its common targets would now fare.
+2 0 SpA Venomicon Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 120+ SpD Assault Vest Slowking-Galar: 164-194 (41.6 - 49.2%) -- 82.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock (OU calc set)
+2 4 SpA Venomicon Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 92 SpD Toxapex: 224-264 (73.6 - 86.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock (min spdef needed on physdef to live after rocks)
+2 4 SpA Venomicon Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 244 SpD Melmetal: 338-398 (82.2 - 96.8%) -- 25% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock (standard protect set)
+2 4 SpA Venomicon Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 216-256 (63.3 - 75%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
4 SpA Venomicon Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 248+ SpD Heatran: 224-268 (58 - 69.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
4 SpA Venomicon Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Heatran: 312-368 (96.5 - 113.9%) -- 75% chance to OHKO
Probably the biggest changes here are SpDef Melm and certain Heatran sets having a chance to be OHKO'd after Rocks when they weren't before, along with maybe needing a bit more investment on Pex to tank an EP, but overall a lot of changes don't feel too dramatic, and anything neutral to Ground is more than happy to be taking less damage from Air Slash instead of Hurricane.
The only other significant change is -5 from Special Defense. I feel like the 64 Speed doesn't need changed and this is a very minor hit to our tankiness overall:
Specs Pult can 2HKO you with Draco but odds are in your favor (6.3% chance to 2HKO over two turns)
0 SpA Zapdos Discharge goes from 5.5% 2HKO to 35.2% chance to 2HKO
Specs Koko is now nearly guaranteed to OHKO versus 75% chance
Pyroak now has a 75% chance to 2HKO with Overheat instead of 56.3%
Most of these are just slightly better odds or easily determinable rolls that take a couple seconds to calc. Perhaps there's more I'm forgetting to check but out of the various Special Attackers I looked at these felt like the only significant ones, and even then they're not really affecting how the Venomicon user is going to play all that much.
And yes -7 Attack means that our Base Attack stat is now the same as Epilogue's Special Attack stat, you're welcome. I didn't want to min-max further by dumping Attack super low but figured making both forms have the same amount on their unused attacking stat was perfectly fine. I'm honestly surprised at how well all of this manages to work out while not compromising too much on the things Venomicon meant to do defensively. It's undoubtedly a weaker option in this state but it has enough to get by and still pose an active enough threat to the right set of Pokemon: Air Slash might even give it better consistency into slow bulky mons like Ferrothorn or Slowbro than it did before.
No matter the case this is a very tricky situation that doesn't have an immediate and obvious answer or set of answers like Venomicon-Epilogue has, so kickstarting discussion on more complicated nerfs that aren't strictly taking away from Venom feels like the next step towards putting Prologue in a more reasonable and fair state.
GAMER EDIT: spoo and i had a conversation about prologue after he beat me fair and square dodged every move i threw at him ignoring the fact that the first team i loaded was blunder policy melm
[23:21] shnowshner:luckiest player alive.......
[23:21] +spoo:skillful
[23:21] shnowshner:we gotta remove hurricane dude LMAO
[23:21] shnowshner:my blood pressure
[23:21] shnowshner:cannot handle this
[23:21] +spoo:im testing out cane/sludge
[23:21] shnowshner:too many canes in the tier
[23:21] +spoo:and i think it might be better than ep
[23:21] shnowshner:yeah
[23:21] +spoo:it doesnt rly care about most steels
[23:22] shnowshner:imagine we remove EP and it makes venom stronger because it actually cared enough to explore options
[23:22] +spoo:yep.
[23:22] shnowshner:like hurricane does a lot of the heavy lifting honestly
[23:22] +spoo:unironically i think that is what would happen
[23:22] +spoo:if we cut ep
[23:22] shnowshner:scary though
[23:22] shnowshner:t
[23:22] +spoo:very
[23:22] shnowshner:idk what sludge really hits tho
[23:23] shnowshner:i guess it's another good move to pressure with since accuracy + poison
[23:23] shnowshner:and yeah u just confuse + chip the steels since only super passive auto-lose to prologue steels have recovery
[23:23] +spoo:it owns zap super hard
[23:23] shnowshner:trueee
[23:24] +spoo:which is the sole check ppl are running these days
[23:24] shnowshner:we've created a monster....
[23:24] +spoo:but like
[23:24] +spoo:toxtect melm is irrelevant
[23:24] +spoo:twave melm is kinda annoying but it has no recovery
[23:24] +spoo:ur equally good into corv as cane ep
[23:24] +spoo:skarm is fodder
[23:24] +spoo:ttar gets poisoned and dies
[23:24] +spoo:zap and washtom get owned
[23:25] +spoo:hurricane is still fine into gking
[23:25] +spoo:or pex
[23:25] shnowshner:fr
[23:25] +spoo:tran is the issue but u just knock it
[23:25] shnowshner:we gotta make that rock/steel levitate mon istfg
[23:26] shnowshner:every 2 caps we make a counter
[23:26] shnowshner:no but seriously
[23:26] +spoo:i agree.
[23:26] shnowshner:i think prologue has a lot of room to explore with how standardized its checks are and how many of them can be compromised with just a few good turns, which can be
[23:27] +spoo:it can tech to beat a lot of stuff
[23:27] +spoo:it just never does
[23:27] shnowshner:odds you skew in your favor by prolonging those interactions
[23:27] +spoo:def
[23:27] shnowshner:man......
[23:27] shnowshner:-hurricane sounds so good rn
[23:27] shnowshner:brb gotta
[23:27] +spoo:it needs something in return
[23:28] +spoo:but yeah its nice
reports are unsure of what happened to pokemonshowdown.com user "shnowshner" and by the time investigators were on the case spoo had already left the scene: foul play suspected
I think you place Venomicon-E somewhere between the 91-95 Speed tier. This makes it more like a Mega Medicham / Kyurem / Tapu Lele-esque wallbreaker. I don't think you remove Coil because it's not really going to use it at that Speed tier anyway. I would maybe even look into giving it back its Attack it lost in the previous nerf if you go to this level of Speed.
What this achieves is: it becomes less braindead rewarding as a wallbreaker because its new Speed tier makes it outplayable and it becomes much more like a pure wallbreaker. Its Speed is 100% the overwhelming factor in my eyes.
All you really need to do to fix Venomicon IMO is remove Earth Power and Mystical Fire. This forces it into running Hurricane + Sludge Bomb, which I believe might in some optics be better than what's run now anyway, but it's a surefire way to add some more long-term counterplay like Heatran. Venomicon now needs to think about how it's going to overwhelm it, like with some Knock Off + Thunder Wave Ferrothorn / Clefable, stuff like that. Don't really think stats would need to be touched? Removing coverage is pretty substantial to how its used now and it's prolly worth looking at how it works out first.
I agree with Jordy about nerfing Speed on Venomicon-E; it's been my biggest gripe with the Pokemon since its inception because you already are pinching the defensive checks pool quite a bit by giving the Pokemon Tinted Lens + boosting moves/item, and putting extra strain on offensive checks complicates the list of actual answers further. I'm not sure I'd go as low as he suggested, but it definitely should not be contesting shit like Tornadus-T.
Additionally, I agree that if we remove Earth Power that Mystical Fire must go too on Venomicon-P. You aren't doing a meaningful nerf if you keep the latter; it just lowers the opportunity cost to using the move and makes cheesing one-on-one wins against Zapdos (and likely others) even easier. You could probably justify a bulk cut too, but I've got no idea on a relevant benchmark.
Hey all, council discussion on Venomicon-E will begin in the next day or two. The thread will of course remain open for further discussion, but if you want to get any last words in before we begin the actual nerfing process, now is the time. Hopefully we'll have Venom-E done by the end of the weekend and can start looking at base Venom right after.
All you really need to do to fix Venomicon IMO is remove Earth Power and Mystical Fire. This forces it into running Hurricane + Sludge Bomb, which I believe might in some optics be better than what's run now anyway, but it's a surefire way to add some more long-term counterplay like Heatran. Venomicon now needs to think about how it's going to overwhelm it, like with some Knock Off + Thunder Wave Ferrothorn / Clefable, stuff like that. Don't really think stats would need to be touched? Removing coverage is pretty substantial to how its used now and it's prolly worth looking at how it works out first.
I'd like to throw my support behind this idea. I think there might be some initial resistance because it's so tempting to write off Flying + Poison coverage as outright bad, especially considering the fact that Venom's been relying on Flying + Ground coverage (traditionally a very strong combination) this whole time. If anything, though, I believe that removing EP and Mystical Fire is closer to an undernerf than an overnerf.
Like Jordy said, Hurricane + Sludge Bomb is already better in some respects than Hurricane + EP, especially into Zapdos - the #2 mon in usage for CAPPL and by far the most common and reliable Venom answer. It's also much better into Rotom-W, although this has been falling off as a Venom answer due to Thunder Wave or NP sets being harder to use post-Saharaja. Tyranitar also becomes an incredibly poor answer if it ever gets poisoned. In practice, I think this STAB combo is much stronger than how Flying + Poison's coverage chart might look.
Still, I think it's a net downgrade from its current set. Taunt Heatran becomes a reliable answer, Toxapex has more leeway to stall Cane PP with Haze (although it's still far from reliable unless heavily SpD invested), Slowking-G remains a good check, Magnezone becomes a good answer to both Venom and Venom-E, Encore Astrolotl has a little more breathing room, and Venom would continue to be answered by any Equilibra set (current coverage beats the newly-freed Bulletproof Libra). While Cane + Sludge Venom doesn't care much about Toxic Melmetal, TWave sets become decent answers, with other less common mons like Nihilego and niche Steels being solid checks as well. Even Zapdos and Tyranitar are still fine into Venom, considering their mere presence will confine Venom's gameplan into predictably spamming Sludge Bomb until it lands a poison.
The best part of this nerf to me is how it forces Venom to become an actually intelligent Pokemon to use, in Jordy's words. It now requires a gameplan from within the builder, as opposed to its current state of being a generic and mostly self-sufficient bulky wincon that you can slot on teams without much consideration. Pairing it with teammates that can overwhelm/cripple opposing Steels (namely Tran) becomes pretty necessary, and Venom can even offer a bit more team support with its ability to spread poisons. I think this definitely limits the kinds of team styles Venom can be freely used on, which could be a good or a bad thing depending on who you ask, but leaning further into Venom's existing strength on slower paced teams is an interesting result to me.
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Outside of this nerf, I think the next best option is a bulk hit. I retract the Burning Jealousy suggestion from my last post (you would honestly run Sludge Bomb over this), and I worry that the balancing calculus we'd need to do with an Air Slash nerf is too complex and unpredictable when we have so little time left this generation to correct it if it goes wrong. Venom doesn't really have a "defined weakness" right now outside of its Speed or maybe Hurricane's unreliability, so turning one side of its defensive spectrum into an exploitable weakness is a pretty good option in that sense. I would prefer cutting Defense to make Venom actually rely on its ability to get going - I've thought from day one that Stamina has been more of a nice perk than something truly crucial to its gameplan, so making it more dependent on getting boosts is appreciated. A SpD nerf is equally valid, though, in letting things like Scarf Lele and Tapu Koko pose a greater threat. The only thing I dislike about cutting bulk is that it lessens the healthiest quality Venom brings to the metagame in its defensive merit, but maybe this is a necessary cost.
Think I've landed in the -Speed camp after mulling it over. As Jordy said, other perceived problems like Coil and it's raw damage output are tempered more heavily when the thing has more rkillers outpacing it to the point I don't think they'd be worth addressing. Seen brief mention of restoring it's Atk nerf to solidify it more in this kind of slower breaker role but personally not fussed over it either way. Not married to a specific speed value either, seen mention from just below Kart to below or equal with Lele so there's clearly a wide range being thought about here. I'd trust the council to find a specific value that gets the job done.
On -EP/MFire for Venom-P
I don't know man nothing during this nerf feels good lmao. I do understand the logic behind this, getting at least 1 more hard check in Mag (2 if you are exactly Taunt Tran), but it kinda side-steps the issue of consistency that afflicts Venom. I don't disagree that forcing it to run monoSTABs would make it have to think more long term to win, but at the same time it now double dips into the realm of fishing for cane fuses (or misses) by tossing sludge poisons into the mix. Not a massive pain by any measure but I personally don't care for leaning more into the feast-or-famine playstyle.
I think the most interesting about this nerf isn't the increase of reliable checks or perceived power of Sludge Bomb though, but rather the door that it opens to Venom's off-color moves that have never seen the light of day. Bomb is good no doubt but might actually start to see shit like Bpress to still let it donk Tran/Libra or status moves cropping up. Whether or not greater set diversity is desirable (if it even occurs at all) is another matter entirely, there's arguments to be made either way on that. I think this more than anything intrigues me the most regarding a coverage nerf.
Overall though I think I've wandered back to the stance I originally had before the nerf process started in believing stat nerfs are just the ideal route to take at this point. Hits both formes and doesn't come with the hang-ups that move removals are proving to have for Venom-P in particular. Mentioned Venom-E Speed already, there's also hitting Venom-P's Defense to force it to rely on smart activations of Stamina to effectively get going which I do quite like. There's also the ever present if boring option to reduce SpA to lower it's damage ceiling to levels more manageable and less determined on hax. Some combination of the two could also be effective but may not be necessary to achieve the end goal.
Overall though I think I've wandered back to the stance I originally had before the nerf process started in believing stat nerfs are just the ideal route to take at this point. Hits both formes and doesn't come with the hang-ups that move removals are proving to have for Venom-P in particular. Mentioned Venom-E Speed already, there's also hitting Venom-P's Defense to force it to rely on smart activations of Stamina to effectively get going which I do quite like. There's also the ever present if boring option to reduce SpA to lower it's damage ceiling to levels more manageable and less determined on hax. Some combination of the two could also be effective but may not be necessary to achieve the end goal.
Seconding this. There is no real downside to nerfing its stats, and I think lowering its Sp. Attack is much cleaner than removing its coverage or its STAB options. I've come to change my mind about removing Hurricane, I'm now totally against it, why would you bother with removing its main STAB when we already know its next best STAB is so much weaker to the point where it would need compensation buffs to go along with it, when you could acheive the same desired outcome (lowering its power) in a much cleaner way that gives you more freedom on how much you get to nerf by lowering its Sp. Attack? I feel like an idiot for considering the infinitely more convoluted option before something as simple as a Sp. Attack nerf. The only downside to lowering its stats is that it has to share its BST with its other form, but this feels more like flavor reasoning to me and you could just put Prologue's lowered stats into Epilogue's Sp. Attack. (EDIT: I didn't explain that well, what I meant is not raising the Sp. Attack the amount Prologue's stats get lowered, but rather lowering Epilogue's stats the amount Prologue gets hit, lowering the BST of Venomicon in general, and Epilogue isn't using its Sp. Attack anyway)
As for the stat nerfs in question, I still stand by -12 Sp. Defense, it's not too damaging but it does help, and various special attackers, particularly Electric types, will have a bit of an easier time handling it. Something like -12 Sp. Attack could be good, Tapu Lele isn't taking as much from 2+ Hurricane anymore, it's no longer guaranteed to OHKO Dragapult (though it is still extremely likely) and overall it would make Prologue have to work more.
+2 0 SpA Venomicon Hurricane vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Tapu Lele: 241-285 (85.7 - 101.4%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO
+2 0 SpA Venomicon Hurricane vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Tapu Lele: 220-259 (78.2 - 92.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 0 SpA Venomicon Hurricane vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Dragapult: 343-405 (108.2 - 127.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 0 SpA Venomicon Hurricane vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Dragapult: 313-370 (98.7 - 116.7%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO (Prologue still admittedly getting that kill a very large majority of the time though)
Overall I think a combination of Sp. Defense and Sp. Attack, together, could help make it more manageable without altering how it functions.
EDIT 2: I also would support removing some of its shared HP stat, because both forms value that stat and removing some of it would be an effective nerf to both of them. However, I'm not a fan of doing it "so we don't have to deal with the complications of nerfing other stats," that just feels like an unneccesary barrier we're imposing on ourselves.
EDIT 3: If Epilogue gets a Speed nerf it should be between Zapdos and Urshifu (which leaves either 99 or 98, either is fine). I don't like 95-91 because Urshifu feels like the kind of Pokemon Epilogue should be able to check, and sure it has Aqua Jet but with Protective Pads it does piss damage to it and with Choice Band it probably won't have the opportunity to be able to use it against Epilogue after it switches in, given the move locking.
I think Jordy's suggestion of simply removing speed on Venomicon-E is the most straightforward and least invasive way to nerf Venomicon-E. Venomicon-E with, say a Base 95 Speed (not a final suggestion, just an example) is now forced to run Jolly is it wants to outspeed or even tie previously slower threats like Tapu Lele, Nidoking and Rotom-W. And this is obviously an exaggeration for the sake of showing how many answers suddenly appear with a lower speed just on the initial drop, but like Jordy, I'd argue that without the Base 120 Speed, Venomicon-E is rarely, if ever going to be able to use Coil as a means to set up, unless it's under very specific circumstances, and by then the opportunity cost for the sheer power Venomicon-E could have is too great .I also think that with the drop in speed, we could probably revert Venomicon-E's old base Attack to maintain some level of offensive pressure, I really like the analogy to Mega-Medicham, and Venomicon-E absolutely could fill that empty niche in the current SS CAP Metagame. In short I'm for -Spe, +Minor Atk Buff
Venom-P is a lot more complicated and I don't think that removing Hurricane is the right way to go. I'll be honest, I think that Venom-P's nerfing process is going to take a lot of what spoo called "balancing calculus", and I think that if we did want to go examine Venom-P more, there is precedent to nerfing CAPs in an old gen Metagame with the recent Jumbao Drought nerf in SM CAP. This is just a single person's opinion, but I think that if we did want to remove Hurricane from Venom-B, we should spend the time to get it just right, and not try to push the nerf out the door before the deadline. Because of this, I'm actually more in the camp of removing the Ground coverage and forcing the Hurricane + Sludge Bomb coverage suggestions a noted by other users. I think there's real merit to having Heatran and Toxapex be reliable checks against this mon, assuming that we don't want to ultimately nerf stats as well. And like Rabia and Jordy, I also believe that the removal of Mystical Fire is probably necessary should Earth Power be removed. If we want to force players using Venom-P as a win condition to be better in timing their move for a "checkmate" and/or if we want Venomicon-P to be checked by Steel types, we should commit to it. Again, I don't have any extra calcs beyond what others have presented in this thread since I think there's been a lot of interesting suggestions, for Venom-P I lean in the camp of remove Earth Power and Mystical Fire with no other changes (though I can understand a small nerf to bulk if absolutely needed)
Hey guys,, I come around to the idea of a Speed nerf being the simplest way forward in nerfing Venomicon-E. I think dropping down to 56 Speed would be a decent benchmark: we're going to be investing in Speed anyway, so a lot of slower defensive mons are still being targeted, but now Zapdos will always have the initiative.
This is a rather heavy Speed nerf so I think a minor Attack buff would be in order to make Epilogue an appealing breaker. This is why I am suggesting 140 Attack.
ok so anyway about Speed nerfs:
In terms of threats to Epilogue, you honestly need to go down pretty far in Speed Tiers in order to add meaningful amounts of offensive checks. 95 Speed seems to be the limit people are comfortable with, and in doing so you add five major Revenge Killers to Epilogue: Kartana, Blacephalon, Pajantom, Zapdos-Galar and Urshifu-R. These are the most capable of dealing heavy damage to us and OHKOing after (or sometimes without) Stealth Rock damage. You also add Adamant Weavile and a couple lower-rank mons to the list, and turn the Lele matchup into a very awkward pressure situation. There's a couple other ranges you can argue for here, such as 96 Speed to outpace Lele and still lose to Urshifu. I think we should at the very least not have a nerfed Speed stat greater than 100, since the amount of A- Rank or higher offensive checks added above this limit is quite small. I think having Pajantom as something which forces Epilogue out is quite a good balance change, as Paj is notoriously hard to switch into without compromising too much on the bulk department like Kartana and Blacephalon, so giving it opportunities to start clicking is a pretty big problem Epilogue teams would have to prepare for. I would say that Epilogue needs to outpace some of the powerful "fast" offensive threats in the metagame and there's really not that much beyond Lele, so going below 95 doesn't seem like a smart play either unless we want to lean into a higher Attack stat.
Hey guys,, I come around to the idea of a Speed nerf being the simplest way forward in nerfing Venomicon-E. I think dropping down to 56 Speed would be a decent benchmark: we're going to be investing in Speed anyway, so a lot of slower defensive mons are still being targeted, but now Zapdos will always have the initiative.
This is a rather heavy Speed nerf so I think a minor Attack buff would be in order to make Epilogue an appealing breaker. This is why I am suggesting 140 Attack.
I terms of Venomicon-E, I would think dex's suggestion is more appropriate. Setup has been the biggest point of contention since Venomicon-E's release. We saw this during the PPL when people voted to remove SD and tune down its attack stat in the preparation for the switch to Coil. We are seeing it once again with some of the bullshit Coil has caused during CAPPL. I could understand cutting speed if the desire was to preserve setup, but there seems to be some anticipation for coil to fall off at the speed tiers being considered. -Coil should be the focus of Venom-E's nerf, and other adjustments should be considered only after it has been removed.
note: if an attack nerf is what is settled on (which i dont think is the way its a lens mon its gna 2hko the entire tier or not do any damage theres no inbetween)
This is not entirely true, as with Venoms typing it is possible for it to 2hko every non steel type Mon in the meta, while having steels be switch ins that can take three or more hits from Drill Peck/Dual Wing Beat.
Removing brave bird would be an option to add more dynamic to Venom es Switch ins.
It also would place it in a unique position as a rare physical poison type wall breaker.
That said, I don’t really think it’s a good solution, even though it was my preferred option during the initial process.
IMO Tinted lens should be bullshit strong and being able to 2hko everything is indicative of it.
Additionally removing BB would mean no more recoil, that Venom E has to deal with. Meanwhile it’s main STAB would be more unreliable which also kinda goes against The Tinted Lens factor.
IMO axing Coil is the best way forward, as it removes its ability to max out its breaking potential while at the same time reducing the amount of available checks and would improve the fun utility options it already has.
Maybe with a small speed nerf added to it (outspeeding Kart would be cool but I could see a drop to 103 to still catch Chomper).
This adds Torn as a Mon that can pick it off after a BB and Astro as a Mon that can seriously cripple it with Will o wisp.
Obviously the entire point of axing cane is to decrease it's breaking power (and consistency bs nobody likes) but that definitely feels pretty extreme. Being forced to plot twice (or at all) vs a lot of the shit you want to check with it is pretty lame. And it's not like one can divest a bit of it's usual bulk invest into Spa either as you need a pretty considerable shift to push these into 2hko/ohko range, losing out on a lot of Venoms defensive value which is also pretty lame.
I also support the removal of Hurricane as our main option. It doesn’t really change how it plays while significantly nerfing Venom Ps power and volatility (hurricane Hax is much more annoying for both players than Air Slash Hax is likely going to be.)
I also don’t agree with the idea that this would necessarily require a buff to its Special Attack. Not only is it’s Special Attack unrivaled by any other current bulky booster it also uses Nasty plot to up its power output much faster and has still solid defensive utility comparable to mons like Tapu Fini or Clefable.
Even though I don’t think a buff to its SpA is necessary I’m also not opposed to a small boost as compensation for losing Hurricane.
(Discharge/TBolt) 
(Psychic) 
(TWave/NP/Discharge/TBolt) 
(kind of)
(Encore) (
+ 
(Specs)) 
(min Speed)
(Taunt) 
(Bulk Up)
