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Hello everyone, and welcome to the third installment of UU Research Week. Each week we will be focusing on 3 subjects for you to test on the ladder via PS! During the first few days you have the freedom to theorymon, but make it clear that you are doing so. By the end of each week, every participant should have posted their results and thoughts on the subject(s) after testing them. Aim to peak as high as you can by the end of week for your name to be put into the Hall of Fame. Posting replays is very much advised, we want to see these Pokemon being used in action. It is mandatory that you submit some thoughts on the Pokemon you have tested for your run to be eligible each week. Your posts don't have to be lengthy but they shouldn't be overly simplistic, try to aim for a small paragraph at the minimum if you can. Aside from this feel free to post sets or even teams to help support your argument and maybe it'll even inspire others to try it out themselves.
Here's a more in-depth procedure:
Each week, 3 subjects will be listed for players to test on the UU ladder.
Players can "sign up" by listing an alt they will use, with the official research week tag followed by the week number. You should also list what subject(s) you intend to test. For example, if I were to sign up for week one, my alt name would be "USRW1 Sickist", so on and so forth.
At the end of each week, each player will post their experience on the subject(s) they tested. This phase being mandatory for all participants.
We encourage you to post replays to help illustrate your points and experience with the Pokemon.
At the end of each week we will gather up all your thoughts into one collective post and we will check each participants final ladder peak to determine who wins each week.
Ferroseed has recently carved out itself a niche in the tier due to a few redeeming qualities. These qualities include a good defensive typing, allowing it to take on the likes of Primarina, Latias, and somewhat Mega Altaria lacking Fire coverage. It's access to hazards alongside it's ability to force things out, allow it to get hazards relatively free. However, we want to know if there is anything consistent about it to make it a worthy addition to the tier.
Screens Azelf is something also relatively new that has popped up, giving a new tech to an old member of UU. With a great speed tier, as well as access to Taunt, allow it to be a relatively good Screens setter. However, there are many tools besides Taunt it can use to be a better screens setter, which is what you all will be testing.
Hydreigon @ Groundium Z
Ability: Levitate
EVs: Filler
- Earth Power
-
-
-
Hydreigon has cemented itself as one of the tier’s most versatile Pokemon thanks to its vast move pool of both offense and utility. For this reason, we want you to test out a Groundium Z variant to see if it can make use of its vast move pool well enough to be considered a viable option or if the set relies on its surprise factor to warrant using.
Sign up with a fresh USRW1 alt, and post your results, as well as your own thoughts on the Pokemon in question. You are free to edit your signup post if your post count is a concern. For this week, the deadline will be Sunday, June 23rd, at 11:59 pm GMT. My fellow host Twilight or I will check everyone's ladder scores then and decide the winner. Good luck everyone and happy researching!
Just so everyone here is clear the alt names should be USRW1. I removed the M to make the alts different from the last thread and easier to track. You can continue to ladder if you have already created your alts, but do follow this formatting instead next week. Yes I know the name is similar, I was too lazy to think of something different. Best of luck laddering everyone and I look forward to reading your thoughts ^_^
So happy that research week is back finally, been really looking forward to this! Posting my ferroseed comments now, will edit hydreigon comments in later!
Current peak, the hydreigon team done a lot of work here tbh
I've used ferroseed a little recently, and it certainly has an interesting niche. I'm going to talk about both toxic and protect as options here, but I have to say i'm much more fond of protect.
Ferroseed checks an interesting combination of pokemon, such as nihilego, altaria, starmie, aerodactyl, latias if running toxic and most importantly primarina. At first this would make it seem like a pretty great pokemon from this information, especially since it can set spikes too, but it has some real issues,
It can only check latias if running toxic, but this makes it's job checking altaria and primarina much harder as it can't regain as much health through leech seed, and can't scout choice locks with protect either.
It's a defensive steel type that doesn't have a bug resistance and is scizor set up fodder.
Relies on it's eviolite, which both limits its recovery and makes knock off a real problem, making it unable to reliably check pokemon such as empoleon and tentacruel which may be carrying it, allowing them to clear hazards on you much easier, or set up their own.
Quite passive, and loses to most offensive pokemonin the tier listed above, including latias if you run protect. This coupled with the second point make it quite a strain on teambuilding, compared to other noteable checks to primarina such as amoongus which can check both primarina and altaria at same time while checking far more pokemon than ferroseeed at same time, along with a much more reliable form of recovery.
Relies on leech seed to keep itself healthy, which means it often struggles to find opportunities to actually lay spikes unless it forgoes healing, also screwed over if the enemy has grass types such as amoongus to swap in on your leech seed, allowing pokemon such as altaria and primarina to much more easily break ferroseed, as it cuts off your only reliable means of recovery outside of wish passing. Another problematic case is tentacruel here, as liquid ooze will end up damaging you instead.
Low pp of it's only damaging move.
It does however have some advantages which are worth mentioning,
Primarina check that doesn't lose to defensive primarina like empoleon, but can't get destroyed by a specs psychic like tentacruel.
Iron barbs allows for chip against rapid spin users that try to clear its spikes such as starmie and tentacruel, importantly preventing rapid spin from working if they get killed by it.
Role compression of a primarina/altaria check with spikes.
While grass types can block leech seed, you can still set up spikes on the swap if predicted to not be totally useless.
Tl:dr - While it offers an interesting set of checks, the important pair of checks it has in altaria/primarina is also shared by amoongus, who seemingly outclasses ferroseed in most ways. While amoongus doesnt have spikes, it makes up for it in spore, being slightly less passive and far more reliable recovery in regenerator, while ferroseed's ability to check these pokemon relies on leech seed, which can not only be blocked by the popular amoongus, tentacruel and celebi, but also prevents it clicking spikes a lot of the time in order to stay healthy. In order to check latias too it needs toxic, but this just worsens its matchup vs primarina as it can't fish for extra leech seed recovery. It also has a fairly poor defensive typing for UU, considering the popularity of HP fire, fire types and fighting types, and it's knock off weakness, and neutrality to ground/dark/ice in general along with mediocre physical bulk.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7uu-933150444 - Replay showing how even against multiple ground weak pokemon, it's not that useful often because a fairy, in this case togekiss, shits on the set, when taunt would have done so much more work this game. Luckily nihilego pulls through and sweeps.
I went into this one expecting it to be fairly niche compared to other possible non dragonium z moves, such as superpower and flash cannon, and 2 attack utility sets. One of the main advantages i see this having over the other two is being able to ohko klefki instead of being forced out by it and hitting mega aggron/steelix harder than any other fire blast moves, since it hits a-muk and empoleon for about the same amount of damage as z-superpower does.
The z-move however can OHKO a tentacruel too, but this is a fairly unlikely situation unless they desperately want to remove hazards.
A fair advantage this set gives over superpower however is that it can neutrally hit fairies, and is strong enough to deal with the less bulky ones like mega-altaria as shown in the replay given chip.
Can also beat volcanion more reliably, which is nice for balance teams struggling to break volcanion, without risking being hit by a superpower and allowing you to OHKO it in the case of specs, but need to be careful they don't read and waste it.
I found out in one of the games that it doesn't even ohko diancie, like 78% at best, which is disappointing compared to z-flash cannon, considering diancie is a pretty big hydreigon answer thats actually weak to this move too. While this means that a z move on the swap will cripple it and put it in range, if given a free swap it can still force you out, even if you haven't used z-move yet.
Tl:dr - While it still accomplishes checking crawdaunt/krookodile still, and can lure klefki and kill it, it loses out on the utility of taunt/defog, the fairy breaking abilities of belch/flash cannon, and the blissey breaking abilities of superpower, while still hitting a lot of options for the same amount of damage as z-superpower would anyway. Good klefki lure, but unlikely to work on the mega steels, and risky to use against a tentacruel too. Feels too situational a benefit compared to the other options. It can however deal with less bulky fairieswith chip such as offensive mega altaria(z-move does about 58-68%) and choice specs primarina fairly easily if you earth power on the swap in, which is a fair bonus considering it's not supereffective.
Okay, from just a general viewpoint, Groundium Z Hydreigon looks to be a promising choice. However, when one really thinks about it, what could Earth Power (or Tectonic Rage) hit? Steel-types? That's cool, but doesn't Hydreigon already get Fire Blast? Okay, yes there is Empoleon, but even then the standard Empoleon set isn't OHKO'd by it:
252 SpA Hydreigon Tectonic Rage (175 BP) vs. 252 HP / 180+ SpD Empoleon: 282-332 (75.8 - 89.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Okay, yes, there is also Klefki, who is OHKO'd by Tectonic Rage, and is only 2HKO'd by Fire Blast which means it won't win the 1v1. It can also hit Fire-types like Volcanion and Infernape, but the latter is OHKO'd by Draco Meteor on the switch, and Volcanion is 2HKO'd by Dark Pulse or a combo of Dark Pulse + Draco Meteor (if you want better rolls). Tectonic Rage obviously OHKOs both, so if you want a faster win, then this is indeed a reliable choice. Mega Aggron isn't OHKO'd by Tectonic Rage:
252 SpA Hydreigon Tectonic Rage (175 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Filter Aggron-Mega: 231-273 (67.1 - 79.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
But Mega Steelix is, however. And so are Electric-types like Mega Manectric and Zeraora. So the thing is, Groundium Z can be useful, however, you gotta use it at the right time. Also, raw Earth Power can help with the chip, however, it must not be revealed too early, otherwise it can be played around. If done right, it can take out threats as well as lure some otherwise Hydreigon checks. Also, it's best that you pair this set with entry hazard users, especially Spikes so that the chip damage can help take things out with Tectonic Rage.
Overall, this set isn't bad, however, most of the time you'd rather be putting other coverage moves and running teammates to cover Hydreigon's checks. This can be a fun lure/breaker set, however!
Thoughts on Ferroseed
Ferroseed @ Eviolite
Ability: Iron Barbs
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Def
Relaxed Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Leech Seed
- Gyro Ball
- Protect
-Stealth Rock
Ferroseed feels nice especially on bulky offense and balance teams. Ferroseeds role in both of these teams is being able to rock in the face of a lots of the tiers rockers as the rockers in the tier dont do enough damage to it really threaten and since rockers are usually bulky, leech seed could be used to regain lost health from their usually weaker attacks. With protect, if opponent is seeded, will improve its longevity
/Calcs/
16+ Atk Rhyperior Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Ferroseed: 82-97 (28 - 33.2%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
0 Atk Swampert Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Ferroseed: 60-72 (20.5 - 24.6%) -- guaranteed 5HKO
0 Atk Hippowdon Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Ferroseed: 61-73 (20.8 - 25%) -- 0% chance to 4HKO
0 Atk Aggron-Mega Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Ferroseed: 50-59 (17.1 - 20.2%) -- possible 5HKO
208+ Atk Steelix-Mega Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Ferroseed: 87-103 (29.7 - 35.2%) -- 21.7% chance to 3HKO
0 Atk Gligar Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Ferroseed: 43-52 (14.7 - 17.8%) -- possible 6HKO
Here are some calcs and it shows that vs defensive rockers, their best attacks against it are 3HKOs at best which means if they are seeded, they cant touch ferroseed and will heal more than they can damage it. That is if when they are seeded. Due to leech seeds accuracy, it isnt a reliable passive recovery.
There are times when I lost ferroseed early/midgame and cant setup rocks due to it having no passive recovery unlike the other rockers that can has passive recovery or just straight up has recovery. It also has to scout for the fire moves the enemy carries and is compounded more with scizor being one of the best in the tier as such mons randomly HP fire that would hit scizor in turn would also hit ferroseed.
Other niche it has vs the rockers above is of course being able to live vs Latias common attacks bar HP fire, Primarina stabs and Mega-Altarias that don't carry fire coverage. However of course it also has glaring weaknesses. Such as not being able to do anything vs grass matchups. Its primary source of damage, leech seed, cant be used vs them as grass cant be seeded and most of the grasses in the tier are slow AF bar celebi, which has a nice matchup against it. Cant touch ferroseed and ferroseed 3HKOs with gyro ball. However, Amoonguss, which is slow AF, and chestnaught, which is immune to both of its attacks, gives it a lot of trouble. Here is what I think ferros niche is vs rockers listed above.
A rocker that can give a conditional healing while being able to "softly" check Latias and soft check/hard check primarina and mega-altaria not carrying fire coverage.
I have not tested spikes extensively to give my thoughts on it but it could be a nice option if you have already a rocker on your team. I think its niche as a grass spiker over chesnaught is that it is a grass type that is not weak to the numerous flying types in the tier and could check the different fairies that plague the tier which chesnaught cant touch. However, ferroseed is also a grass type that doesnt threaten bulky waters that live the tier. Seed bomb is its best option (Not even power whip wtf) is only an 80 BP move that Gyro ball can easily overcome in dmg.
Only things I can think that seed bomb does more dmg is against bulky waters and grounds and even then, those types could easily be handled by other teammates so it shouldn't carry it as its dmg is weaker vs the mons it can check i.e. Fairies, and Dragons to some extent as long as not carrying fire coverage. If seed bomb is carried, only things it hits harder are waters and grounds which usually teams are equipped to handle them. I think that it has some merits to its name however take the negatives with the positives. I think that he is way harder to utilize than most rockers in the tier due to how passive it is and it isn't like hippowdon that has reliable recovery or gligar which is also a holder of eviolite. Losing eviolite as well is really bad just like gligars as its tanking ability is dampened.
With proper wish support, he can only do so much due to its passivity so I think that the only archetypes it can fit in is balance or bulky offense as if put on stall, it doesnt contribute anything to stall that warrants using it over stall staples such as quagsire, pyukumuku, blissey and the likes nor could he be in HO where it is too passive/too slow to be of use in that archetype.
Hydreigon @ Groundium Z
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Earth Power
- Dark Pulse
- Draco Meteor
- Roost
As for hydreigon, oh boy. I had headaches trying to build a team with hydreigon on it due to how much better scarf is and sometimes I curse myself why I did it in the first place. The times I've had to scrap teams just because of it not being able to accomplish its role is actually a lot that I had to give up halfway through and I was lucky enough to have a team that works. However I am surprised as to why groundium Z hydreigon fits into balance teams. Either because I could only really build balance well but he works.
The lack of u-turn on this set makes it such a huge momentum suck and predicting/double switching is what you can do to keep momentum throughout the game. Since drei is also slower than the likes of terrakion, infernape, cobalion, zeraora(CC), latias, other hydreigons. He has to be played around the fact that it can not revenge kill these various threats that it could handle or at least chip for another teammate and be able to beat their only check that stops their sweep or could dmg them enough offensively.
Because Drei is slower, it needs to predict else he would get bopped by their powerful close combats/dragon stab. However if lured, the former four would get OHKO'd while the latter two would of course die to its powerful draco meteor. Also groundium Z is a lure set. So not revealing the set early on is a good thing as they would send in their usual hydreigon checks such as empoleon, a-muk, klefki, scizor and would get 2HKO'd or OHKO'd in klefkis case by groundium z. It could also dmg the likes of mega-altaria thinking they can come in nilly willy and setup in the face of hydreigon then getting hit by that groundium z feels very nice.
I think that groundium z has its niche and could be used definitely. Just watching empoleon and a-muk getting killed by hydreigon is just funny and got lots of rq's thats for sure. Its niche over its other sets is that is is able to hit fairies while being able to lure its different checks and counters available such as mega-altaria, primarina, empoleon, scizor and a-muk after stealth rocks. In offensive primarinas case, it is its most powerful option against it and is a 3HKO with 2 earth powers and ground z.
252 SpA Hydreigon Tectonic Rage (175 BP) vs. 72 HP / 0 SpD Altaria-Mega: 178-210 (57.6 - 67.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Hydreigon Tectonic Rage (175 BP) vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Assault Vest Muk-Alola: 196-232 (55.6 - 65.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Hydreigon Tectonic Rage (175 BP) vs. 252 HP / 180+ SpD Empoleon: 282-332 (75.8 - 89.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Hydreigon Tectonic Rage (175 BP) vs. 92 HP / 0 SpD Primarina: 164-193 (50.6 - 59.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Hydreigon Tectonic Rage (175 BP) vs. 164 HP / 0 SpD Scizor: 223-263 (69.2 - 81.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
It is still of course weak AF vs specially defensive walls (as all special attackers are) but thats what teammates are for
Niche over scarf is that it could 2HKO mons it couldnt with groundium such as mega-altaria and a-muk after rocks that scarf wouldnt be able to do
Just a reminder that many of you which have signed up for RW need to post some form of thoughts for your laddering rank to be elegible. You still have around 7-8 hours to post your opinions on the Pokemon you tested, before Week 2 should be going up. I won't be repeating this process of reminding participants each week. Depending on the influx of submissions during this period of time, the next round may go up early tomorrow instead. I hope to see some more posts in the following hours.
Man I missed this project so much.
I probably won't finish my post before the deadline if I try to make an actual introduction, so let's hop right into it. As a quick note, I peaked at 1613 ELO with 76.6% GXE (went 77-35) if anyone cares about that.
In case someone didn't notice, second team is viv's screens
Honestly, I don't have a lot to say about Azelf, it's one of the handful of pokémon to get acces to both screens, and is one of the best setters for them thanks to its okay-ish bulk and ability that give it some occasions to come in. What makes it worth using compared to the others screens setters is its access to Taunt alongside a high base 115 Speed that allows it to prevent any attempt at defogging. Azelf is one of the only mon that combine these 3 factors (other ones are Virizion and Swoobat, but Swoobat has a much worse bulk and Virizion ... Idk I never tried screens Virizion), which is enough to makeAzelf the second best screens setter around imo - or at the very least tied with Xatu as the best setter with both having their upsides and downsides.
- Taunt prevents any attempt at setting up, while Xatu can at best paralyze them (which is often just as effective, but it can go against you - take for example Facade Altaria)
- Azelf may have a higher natural bulk, but Xatu doesn't rely on its speed, allowing it invest in bulk and tank hits Azelf can't, such as Hydreigon's dark pulses or Krookodile's Knock Offs)
- Xatu has a handful of additional weaknesses due to its flying typing, with the biggest one being the electric and ice weaknesses that prevent it to try setting screens up against the likes of Mamoswine or Manectric-M.
- Azelf has higher offensive stats that it can make use of in a pinch, but these offensive moves are often hard to justify
- Xatu can bounce entry hazards back, and it's impossible to defog its screens away because of Magic Bounce (which is honestly not too big of a deal when Azelf can outspeed and Taunt all defoggers bar Pidgeot-Mega and Scarf Hydreigon/Latias)
I quickly got all the info I wanted about the normal set (using U-Turn in the last slot), so I started messing around in the last slot to see if there was anything worth noting. Could be long so I'll put that in a spoiler as well :
U-Turn is the most consistent option, and allows Azelf to give a """""free"""" switch-in to its teammates. It also helps vs opposing Azelfs, as you can break their focus sash before going to a 'mon that can kill it (probably scizor). Do note, however, that the pokémon you send in will often have to take a hit simply because of Azelf having one of the fastest U-Turns around (so it most likely will switch out before the opponent has attacked).
Explosion guarantees your next pokémon will be able to come in freely (as opposed to U-turn), but it has the big downside of, you know, killing Azelf. Also it deals pretty decent damage even without any kind of offensive investment. An okay option, but you'll only use it if you're 100% sure you won't need the screens afterwards.
Safeguard is a nice tech that allows your pokémon to start setting up freely without risking a Toxic/Scald burn/Paralysis, but it only lasts 5 turns and isn't boosted by Light Clay. Extremely hard to abuse it (Azelf basically has to die the turn it sets Safeguard up if you want to have it for more than 3 turns, although it can be enough to get the boosts you need - like a Feraligatr getting to +2 to 2HKO a Vincune without ever having to risk a Scald burn).
Thunder Wave is decent to cripple faster threats like Scarf Hydreigon, Aerodactyl-Mega or Pidgeot-Mega, which can be extremely useful depending on how your team fares against these threats.
Knock Off can be pretty useful to remove the scarf from threats such as Krookodile or Hydreigon, and Leftovers from the likes of Empoleon, but I found it relatively inconsistent compared to other options like Safeguard or U-turn.
Kept mentioning how Hydra can be bothersome for Azelf, so time to talk about a Hydreigon set that doesn't threaten Azelf at all.
Groundium-Z Hydreigon
Hydreigon @ Groundium Z
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Dark Pulse
- Draco Meteor
- Earth Power
- Roost / U-turn
At first, I thought that this had the potential to be the worst viable Hydreigon set, and then I started using it and was pleasantly surprised. I still think it's worse than the standard sets (LO, Scarf, Specs, Z-Drake), but it wasn't a garbage lure either like Z-Belch. This Z gives a nice middle ground nuke that hits pretty hard (but not as hard as Devastating Drake, obviously) the neutral targets like the fairies while allowing you to, you know ... lure things. In this case, the noteworthy targets of this Z are Cobalion (has to be nailed on the switch for obvious reasons, that or you're a madman and stay in on SR/SD), Lucario (doesn't need predictions since you outspeed, but if it decides to go for Vacuum fsr you'll take a ton, so careful), NIhilego (nothing to note here except that it outspeeds, and Sludge Wave hits pretty hard), Tentacruel (nothing to note), Empoleon (needs to be at 75% for a guaranteed OHKO, but it can't do much except Toxic), Klefki (biggest target, I think) and maybe Muk-Alola (needs to be at 55% to OHKO it with Tectonic Rage).
While i first thought that this set would struggle to be as effective as Scarf in terms of offensive utility, it turns out that it isn't that big of a deal, mainly because fitting U-turn in the last slot works wonders to bluff the scarf (works especially well with other potential scarfers) and keep its ability to grab momentum, although that means no Roost and you then lose a lot of defensive utility, but both options have worked pretty well for me so far. Decent lure, and an average set.
Ferroseed @ Eviolite
Ability: Iron Barbs
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Sassy Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Spikes
- Leech Seed
- Protect / Toxic / Thunder Wave / Knock Off
- Gyro Ball
Feel like I was kinda overhyped about that nut. It definitely wasn't bad, and it's actually ridiculous how bulky that thing is on the special side (it's barely 2HKO'd by Gengar's Focus Blast for example). Ferroseed is definitely a nice option as a Spikes setter, as it gets tons of opportunities to come in thanks to its combination oftyping and bulk, that allow it to check all variants of DD Altaria, non-HP fire Latias, non-HP Fire Celebi, non-HP fire Nihilego (who plays that tho) and outright counter all Primarina and Starmie variants, and it's also able to come in on the steel-type megas without too much trouble (bar Fire Punch Aggron), and just a ton of defensive pokémon overall (Alomomola, Blissey, Gligar, Hippowdon, Swampert, Rhyperior, defensive Seismitoad, Mantine, defensive Nidoqueen, Clear Body Tentacruel, Slowbro, Sylveon, Florges, Klefki, Diancie ... Yeah the list is getting kinda long so I'll stop). Do note, however, that I only said it can come in, not force them out in any way. And that's because Ferroseed is incredibly passive, especially when you consider that its main STAB, Gyro Ball, has very low PP and Ferroseed has an extremely low attack stat. Leech Seed and Toxic (probably the best option on it, but I like Protect more - more on that later) allow it to deal some kind of damage overtime, but it's definitely not enough to make it oppressive in any way.
Now, I still haven't talked about Ferroseed's main selling point (besides its ability to check 3 of the biggest threats in the metagame) - Spikes. And it's actually a pretty good user of them. As I mentioned earlier, there are a ton of mons Ferroseed can switch into and wall to its heart content, giving it tons of opportunities to throw some Spikes on the ground - at least in theory. In practice, even though Ferroseed gets tons of opportunities to set up Spikes, you'll usually use those opportunities to use Leech Seed and get your health back, simply because Ferroseed is 100% reliant on Leech Seed to stay healthy (unless you have Wish support), and you'll usually want it to stay at high amounts of health. Add onto that, there are just as many pokémon that can force it out as there are it can come in (all Fire- and Fighting-types, all Grass-types bar Celebi, anything carrying Knock Off, any powerful physical wallbreaker that hits it either neutrally or super-effectively), and it can be hard to capitalize on the time Ferroseed spends on the field.
To briefly mention other issues I had with Ferroseed, its over-reliance on Leech Seed means that its recovery can be completely neutered if your opponent has a Grass-type (which isn't too uncommon when Amoonguss is like the best pivot in BO, Celebi is one of the best breakers and others like Chesnaught and Tsareena are just as threatening for Ferroseed), Ferroseed doesn't have a great MU against common Defoggers/Spinners (Tentacruel can have Liquid Ooze to turn Leech Seed against you and sometimes carries Knock Off, Gligar isn't threatened in any way, Rotom-H forces Ferroseed out for obvious reasons, Tsareena carries Knock Off very often, Empoleon can be slowly chipped away, but if it carries Knock Off then you don't want to deal with it), it is extremely susceptible to Knock Off due to its over-reliance on its Eviolite to check what it's supposed to check, if it's burned and you don't carry Toxic then Altaria can 1v1 you (and getting your Ferroseed burnt is pretty common, considering it gets tons of switch-in opportunities on bulky waters - fuck Scald btw), and it's a Steel-type that can't check Scizor (not that big of a deal, but it can sometimes make teambuilding weird).
Overall a solid defensive mon (haha puns) that does well on its own, but it requires some support to really shine.
tl;dr
- Azelf is extremely good at setting up screens, but it still has a handful of issues that can be relatively easily exploited in the current meta. 7/10
- Groundium-Z Hydreigon isn't too bad, it can lure some pretty annoying 'mons and keeps most of the utility of its more standard sets. 6/10
- Ferroseed is great at walling stuff and getting some entry hazards up, but its complete lack of offensive presence alongside other issues I mentioned earlier severely limit it. 8/10
- Screens are dumb
Only took me 3 hours to write this woohoo
With that, the first week has come to an end. Congratulations to Daiyaga for winning the first week of the rebooted Research Week! As customary I have gathered up all the thoughts from everyone who posted.
Ferroseed
Estarossa, OneSmogonCopyer and Daiyaga believe Ferroseed has a decent niche in the tier, with its ability to switch into Pokemon like Mega Altaria, Primarina and Latias etc. However, Estarossa pointed out it is unable to check Latias without the use of Toxic + Leech Seed otherwise it becomes CM fodder. OneSmogonCopyer tried Stealth Rock on their Ferroseed and believe it is a viable option. Estarossa and Daiyaga used Spikes which they liked for its ability to stack them on its common switch-ins such as Grass-types, which all participants realised were an issue for it. Ferroseeds inability to touch these Pokemon and them blocking its only form of recovery in Leech Seed is a huge deal for it, some players even pointed out Liquid Ooze Tentacruel really annoys it too. All players stated it has a huge reliance on Eviolite to be able to check the threats it needs to, making it very wary of the large amount of potential Knock Off users in the tier like Tentacruel and Krookodile. OneSmogonCopyer mentioned how it is the only Grass-type in the tier that is unable to pressure the Water-types in the tier, due to its inability to carry a useful Grass STAB. Both Daiyaga and ‘Estarossa mention its passivity and it being a Steel-type unable to check Scizor is a very big restriction on trying to build around it. Overall the players did like Ferroseed and think it has a niche in the tier, for the utility and compression it can fit into one slot.
Screens Azelf
We only had one player submit their findings on Azelf, being Daiyaga but they provided a lot of insight on it. Daiyaga believes Azelf is a potent screen setter with it being one of the few Pokemon who have access to both screens and has decent enough bulk to pull it off. This is accentuated with it having an amazing base speed of 115 allowing it to Taunt potential Defog users attempting to remove the screens. Daiyaga pointed out its little competition to compress this all into one slot, making Azelf one of the best setters. Daiyaga believes the last slot is very customizable with options such as Explosion, Safeguard and Thunder Wave which they provided a lot of insight on. Finally Daiyaga compared Azelf to Xatu another popular screens setter and concluded both have their different niches, with Azelf giving up bulk and the usefulness of Magic Bounce to have more offensive presence with its Speed tier allowing it to accomplish more things.
Groundium Z Hydreigon
Every participant tried this Hydreigon set and there were a lot of surprises, as most players realised the effectiveness this set can provide. Everyone acknowledged the sets effectiveness of being able to lure in Pokemon like Klefki, Empoleon, Alolan Muk and Cobalion and proceed to either OHKO them from full or with chip. masterball200 mentioned he thinks a Spike setter works best with this set as it brings a lot of these Pokemon into OHKO range after taking the chip. Estarossa, OneSmogonCopyer and Daiyaga mentioned how it doesn’t sit in limbo between other Hydreigon sets like Z-Belch as it still has its effectiveness after being used and can still hit Fairy-types like Primarina and Mega Altaria. masterball200 and OneSmogonCopyer stated the concept of Earth Power shouldn’t be revealed, as it would come at the cost of decreasing the effectiveness of the potential lure. OneSmogonCopyer believes that this set felt outclassed by the usefulness of Choice Scarf, but later found it works nicely on Balance. Daiyaga on the other hand found that it had the capability to still run U-turn to bluff the potential Choice Scarf easing the need for prediction. Overall, everyone was happily surprised by how effective the set can be, but Estarossa and masterball200 do believe most of the time it would prefer to have different coverage options.
Terrakion @ Any Berry of your choice
Ability: Justified
EVs: Filler
- Stone Edge
- Close Combat
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Starmie is notorious for being one of the hardest offensive Pokemon to switch into virtue to its fantastic coverage options and the fear of Analytic kicking in. Life Orb and various Z-moves such as Waterium Z and Electrium Z have already been explored. This week we want you to test out Colbur Berry on the offensive Starmie set to determine its effectiveness to help it survive important hits or if it falls short of more convenient items.
Porygon2 recently got placed in C- on the VR thread deeming it worthy of having a niche in the tier. Most notably being ranked due to its ability to run Z-Conversion and perform as a late game sweeper with its decent move pool and bulk to boot. Commonly carrying BoltBeam as its coverage options, but maybe there is more that can be explored here as well as other potential sets that can be viable on it.
Terrakion is without a doubt one of the scariest breakers in the tier thanks to its bolstering Attack stat in combination with its dual stab coverage. Choice Band being able to pressure teams thanks to its immediate power, though recently it has fallen out of favor in comparison to its Swords Dance set. One of the reasonings being its ability to run Rockium Z to nuke past a lot of its conventional checks. This week we want you to test out using a berry of your choice on it. This has already been explored with Babiri and Iapapa for example, so we want you to test these out and maybe some other cool variants you can come up with. You have a lot more freedom here, so we will be interested in your findings whether they are a good alternative or are completely overshadowed by its Z-Move sets.
Sign up with a fresh USRW2 alt, and post your results thoughts on the Pokemon in question. This is mandatory to be elegible to be counted in the given week, read the OP for more information regarding the length of your findings. You are free to edit your signup post if your post count is a concern. For this week, the deadline will be Sunday, June 30th, at 11:59 pm GMT. My fellow host Sickist or I will check everyone's ladder scores then and decide the winner. Good luck everyone and happy researching!
All three probably. 100% porygon2, wish starmie had the option for bulky too though xd
I expected this to be pretty bad, but it actually checks a whole host of good pokemon, such as latias, aerodactyl, hydreigon, gengar, nidoking, primarina, volcanion, starmie and moltres, while being able to spread paralysis and toxic around with discharge/twave + toxic.
Trace is also a real boon that gives it some stall / bulk matchup unlike z-conversion which can't deal with spdef walls at all, as it can copy abilities such as natural cure off of blissey to sponge status, regenerator off of pokemon such as amoongus and alomamola to get free heals without having to use its recover pp (has to watch out for knock from alo but in stall matchup its unlikely to need its eviolite), pressure off of moltres/articuno to reverse pp stall them. So while it can't actually hurt stall, it can make itself a nightmare to take down and make the team waste a lot of important pp on it.
It has neat options available to it too, as the only real necessary moves are toxic + recover, allowing you to choose from options such as foul play to hurt pokemon such as scizor coming in on it, discharge to spread paralysis, ice beam + discharge fro devastating bolt beam coverage, magic coat to bounce back hazards/status, tri attack for a largely neutrally hitting stab attack, psywave for a pseudo seismic toss for more consistent damage, and conversion 2 to change its type around so it can better deal with certain threats.
Tri attack also has one another neat advantage when chosen, in that you can also use it + trace to threaten altaria, 0 SpA Pixilate Porygon2 Tri Attack vs. 72 HP / 0 SpD Altaria-Mega: 138-164 (44.6 - 53%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock .
Main downsides in reality are that it lets in lots of threatening physical attackers, can't beat nasty plot users such as celebi, and has a reliance on eviolite in non stall matchups. Also that it needs cleric support if the enemy isn't running any natural cure pokemon it can trace.
Starmie will certainly make a decent lure for Hydreigon, Krook, Aerodatyl-M and, to some extent, Bisharp, but the damage difference between LO and Colbur seems really noticeable based on a few calcs I ran (Florges and Sylveon can live a dual HPump for example).
Resistance berries on Terrakion can make for effective lures, as Terrakion doesn't always need its Z-move to smash teams. Babiri stands out as the most obvious one to lure Scizor, but the other ones can be interesting as well, like Shuca to lure Krook/Hippo (without relying on a Z-move in Hippo's case), Passho to lure Starmie, Chople to lure Cobalion (assuming it goes for CC, which it should since Iron Head doesn't OHKO from full), Terrakion, Infernape and Zeraora (and it might allow Terrakion to revenge kill a boosted NP Lucario), Rindo for Amoonguss and Chesnaught ... yeah I think you get the idea by that point
Pinch berries (Iapapa/Figy) help Terrakion stand on the field longer, which can allow it to come in another time on threats like Moltres or Nihilego, but I'm not 100% sold on it atm since they don't have the same surprise effect as the resistance berries nor the sheer power of LO/Z Terrakion
Salac Berry seems like a cool tech if you want to have both Subsitute and a speed boost on your SD Terrakion, but activating it could be the biggest issue.
Z-Conversion P2 doesn't strike me as an incredible late-game sweeper rn as it's still pretty slow after a boost (doesn't outspeed base 115s) and only has 105 SpA, so I don't find its damage output incredible on paper. Might be better in practice.
Defensive P2 is fat as hell (doesn't need much investment to tank a double HPump from Primarina, like wtf) , but apart from spreading status with Discharge/TWave/Toxic or setting TR up, it doesn't seem to have much utility.
Kinda earlyposting, but even if I don't have tested everything I wanted to test, I don't really feel like building more teams for this week, and laddering is starting to make me mad. Peaked at around 1550 ELO but now I'm stuck at like 1400 (76-46 ratio).
It's ... okay.The set still has all the perks you're expecting from an offensive Starmie, but it trades some of its power for the ability to lure Krookodile and (to some extent) Aerodactyl-Mega trying to Pursuit trap you. While at first I didn't think the power loss compared to Life Orb was a huge deal, it turns out it is, and not having this extra damage makes Starmie miss on a handful on OHKO/2HKOs which can be pretty annoying (as a few examples : Hydreigon isn't OHKO'd by Analytic Ice Beam unless it took 3 rounds of SR, Florges and Sylveon dodge the 2HKO from Psyshock, Empoleon and Crocune aren't 2HKO'd by Thunderbolt assuming you picked that move in the first place, Lucario will always live Hydro Pump unless it goes for a priority move). And considering that the mons you're trying to lure won't usually attempt to hard switch into Starmie (cause, you know, they are kinda destroyed by Hydro Pump), they'll only come in to revenge kill Starmie, which happens more rarely due to the lack of power (making the "killing something" part much harder as I mentioned earlier).
No replays this time, idk if I just forgot to save them or if ladder just hard trolled me
Yeah honestly, take what I said about Starmie, replace "Life Orb" with "Z-Move", and you'll have a rough idea of what I think of resistance berries on Terrakion.
To expand a bit on that, losing the ability to muscle past everything with Continental Crush/All-Out Pummeling sucks, especially considering they roughly cover all the mons you can lure with different berries. The only exceptions to that, and as such the only berries I'd call usable are :
Babiri Berry for Scizor (and Doublade but that's harder to pull off, as you need EQ, and then SD as it switches in, SD a second time, and then EQ. And even with that, the OHKO isn't guaranteed while Gyro + Sneak can kill Terrakion from full, lul)
Passho Berry for Starmie
Chople Berry for Terrakion, Cobalion, Infernape and Zeraora
Shuca Berry for Aerodactyl-Mega, Nidoqueen, Nidoking (assuming you run EQ) and Krookodile (scarfed)
Payapa Berry for Latias and Psychic Fangs Sharpedo-M
All other resistance berries are simply worthless compared to simply running either Fightinium-Z, Rockium-Z or a simple Life Orb if you really want the Z-crystal on another mon.
Onto the pinch berries, I found them a pretty useful alternative item on the SR set when you want the Z on another mon, as the extra longevity allows Terrakion to soft-check things like Moltres or Togekiss throughout the match, instead of coming in once and then being unable to deal with them. But it only works if you get to proc the berry, which I found pretty hard to do due to Terrakion's bulk not being the greatest, and you often just fall short of the 25% HP limit, and Sitrus berry's healing is not big enough to make a difference imo.
And to finish with more random berries, Lum berry allows you to not get fucked by Prankster TWave from Klefki, Spore from Amoonguss and random Scald burns (also Twave from Togekiss I guess), and Salac Berry lets you get a speed boost even when using SubSD Terrakion but the lack of nuke is really felt.
Porygon2 @ Eviolite
Ability: Trace / Analytic
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
- Recover
- Ice Beam
- Discharge / Foul Play
- Toxic / Hidden Power [Fire]
I tried mainly two sets on this mon, SpD and Z-Conversion (can't find my SpD P2 team, guess I deleted it when I was tilting whoops) and they're obviously radically different so I'll talk about them in separate parts.
SpD Porygon2 was ... really fat, but that's about it. It's definitely a great sponge on the special side, and its natural bulk combined with the eviolite means it can stomach pretty strong physical hits without investing in Defense just as well as i takes special hits, giving it a few opportunities to get some chip on the opponent (and maybe a paralysis with Discharge). Trace is also a pretty nice ability to get a free Regenerator/Natural Cure/Whatever you can get. But apart from this, Porygon2 really doesn't bring any defensive utility (no Entry Hazard, no access to Heal Bell/Aromatherapy, no Wish, no Phazing/Hazing, no Defog), the amount of Knock Off users (Krook, Zera, Beedril-M, Mamoswine, Tentacruel, Empoleon, Scizor, Gligar, Bisharp to name a few) really suck for it, and it's susceptible to all forms of entry hazards and status. Overall not a bad set, I just think it lacks something to set it apart from the various special sponges running around (its mixed bulk isn't enough when most physical attackers can Knock Off its Eviolite, and Trace often isn't making a big enough difference).
Oh right, and Analytic is more consistent as an ability on Porygon2 if you want its attacks to pack a slightly bigger punch (Ice Beam can 2HKO offensive Altaria-M with Analytic boost for example), but I find Trace to be much more interesting when it comes into play.
As for Z-Conversion, it was ... inconsistent ?
I can't say it was bad, as it had some matches where it really shone, outright sweeping some teams. But I can't say it's great either, as there are many more matches where it couldn't do anything. I'll put all of that into bullet points 'cause I'll just confuse myself if I try putting everything into one paragraph :
Its speed after a boost, while good, is not good enough, and lets it get outsped by anything past the base 115 speed (Starmie, Houndoom-Mega, everything faster than that that I'm too lazy to list). It also means Scarf Krookodile and Aerodactyl-Mega outspeed it, which is not an issue in itself, but it is when you consider that,
the only "good" types it can change into are Electric and Ghost. The first one is definitely the best overall as it gives it a resistance to the most common priority aka Bullet Punch while staying neutral to all others, but the weakness to Ground is extremely crippling because of Krookodile and Aerodactyl-Mega. On the other hand, Ghost provides an immunity to 3 priorities (Extreme Speed, Vacuum Wave, Mach Punch) making it much harder to revenge kill with this, but the weakness to Dark is even more crippling than Electric's weakness to Ground, as you are now revenge killed by Choice Scarf Krookodile, Choice Scarf Hydreigon, Houndoom-Mega, Bisharp (Sucker Punch) and Sharpedo-Mega (if it didn't evolve yet, allowing it to get +1 Speed and outspeed you).
Porygon2's base SpA is rather lackluster, meaning it often relies on getting the correct Download boost to sweep. This makes it even more inconsistent, as setting up on some 'mons can't be done because you need the Download boost to kill X mon, but the mon on the field will give you an Atk boost instead of a SpA boost.
Its bulk is pretty good after a boost, but it can still fall short sometimes, and Choice Scarf Krookodile (yeah I mentioned it a lot, for good reasons) is often enough to revenge kill Porygon2 (you take 71.3 - 84.8%, so basically any hit you take before Krook comes in puts you in range).
Boltbeam coverage is nice, but it leaves you walled by Thick Fat Mamoswine and Rotom-Heat by virtue of their typing, and Porygon2's lackluster power means it can get walled by most special sponges (Blissey obviously, but Nihilego takes +1 STAB Thunderbolt pretty well and hits hard enough with Sludge Wave to force Recover every two turns, Sylveon and Florges can deal with Porygon2 if it's only +1, Muk-A obviously walls you to oblivion and can easily fish for a poison). Ghost variants of Z-Conversion are even worse, as Porygon2 lacks good coverage moves to go with Shadow Ball, and you can't cover everything in 2 slots (3 if you give up Recover, but I wouldn't recommend it, I think P2's access to reliable recovery is a incredible boon for this set).
Colbur Starmie is okay as a lure as it keeps most of the regular set's utility, but the power loss is way too noticeable. 5/10
Berry Terrakion is really nice and customizable, and I think they are legit options on standard SD sets to lure stuff, but the lack of a nuke makes its breaking job luch harder. Also resistance berries suck when you can't find the mons you want to lure. 7/10
SpD Porygon2 struggles to distinguish itself from other SpD sponges, I think, and Z-Conversion is relatively inconsistent. I still think it's worth using if you can find the right team to support it, but god is it a pain to get that support. 5/10
