Metagame USUM RU Metagame Discussion

[MrAldo]

This is a very interesting discussion given that many points can make each of the 2 elements on the discussion being problematic on its own, but I think screens and linoone arent isolated offenders.

Surprising, isnt it? Yeh, Im the first of thing my constant swings about what to do with linoone and screens and C H E E S E but after some meditation in the end I just screens as an interesting buffer which while super annoying to face and being complicated to prepare for on such a compressed metagame with so many big threats that get such a huge buffer to them... at first it looks ok if we take some threats out of the equation but in the end I think the best course of action will be to still take a look at both on the same suspect and see how they interact as a whole, however... this is dangerous.

Dangerous that on the top of every tier leader head, a dual suspect with an "unhealthy" element like screens and linoone is the ideal one to determine which one is the worse offender but the general voting is a matter of perception and if people feel annoyed enough... the idea start having the flaws... but lets see a bit of linoone

Yes, I will defend my "wrong and pedantic" stance of linoone not being broken, which I firmly believe so, but one thing doesnt have to be necessarily broken in order to see how it negatively affects the metagame as a whole. On a scope of viability linoone is certainly a mon that isnt versatile, a real one trick pony that require considerable and specific support but one that boy, can punish you very hard by making the wrong play or a play that gives it the chance to setup. I think forcing to role a dice everytime like that all the times you see a linoone isnt something really healthy for the metagame as a whole. I personally find playing around linoone a very interesting experience of playing around a ticking bomb that you gotta defuse in time or otherwise it is gonna explode on your face and you will DIE. The idea is kind of exciting but I see how facing that every.single.time since it is becoming scary consistent at this rate can be seen as too much. At least deserve to be taken a look despite the impression that the moment a mon reaches a suspect it gets banned as shit.

Im all out for defining new suspecting parameters for unhealthy elements such as moves and abilities that just affect the flow of the metagame as a whole, think banning veil was a bold but a very good game that helped a lot instead of banning mon after mon until no "viable" veil user is around. Think it was the simplest and most efficient way, dont see why it cant be done for screens if it resorts to that.

In the end, Linoone is a mon that Im indifferent on, a different way to play but not one Id personally defend or miss if it goes so... a suspect would do fine... Id prefer to test both as the same tho but eh, idk. There are some complicated kinks around it that hopefully we can figure out.

 

[lighthouses]

While I think it's a little much to say that this is only because "elite" players are bored of it - most of the complaints came from the community at large tbh - I do kinda see the point about removing a entire style of play and how tricky it is to do. We have removed moves before - aurora veil, baton pass - but screens have been left alone for so long that it is a bit uneasy to see them as inherently broken. I don't really want to go through all the reasons screens are better in gen 7 at large, but even so I think trying to salvage it should be prioritized, and imo this leads us to Linoone lol.

Linoone is way, way different than the previous grief people had over Barbaracle, in my eyes. While we adapted to Barb as a whole and under screens, with stuff like Tangela or Scarf Noivern for examples, Linoone cuts through a lot of it with its priority and generally more adaptable bulk + typing. The other issue is that, Barb answers don't really change, they either work or they don't (bar putting like Protect for Pod), Linoone can have circumstances that are completely out of your control at times. If it's screens, it can setup way more safely, even on the likes of Virizion. If it's webs, Scarf Ttrum and Espeed Zygarde are essentially removed from the game. And then, there's the dumb thing called luck lol. Here's two wonderful examples of Cursed Body making games fun: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ru-864501059 https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ru-888426983

In both games I won because Froslass died and stopped the scarfer from actually attacking. Metagross absolutely needs boom to ohko Linoone, which might seem not worthwhile if you get chip with something else but uh what if you don't? Scarf Ttrum is a good counter, but hazards kill it fast and it basically had to double as a way to kill Froslass. I really agree with Ajna on one point, none of this is competitive, and it's not even about bridging the skill gap or whatever. It's a strat that makes shortcuts to winning ridiculously efficient, which has an appeal to honestly everyone lol.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ru-893145141 Other replay cause why not, this one from the SM RU Cup. Nothing fancy, but... see how badly I get owned before Linoone comes in? I get six straight turns badly, essentially, but because of one play Ninjadog makes that in theory is actually the best play - ie spin killing Bee to prevent webs up - he ends up with a sturdy less Donphan... and me with a setup opportunity that were always going to be extremely rare in this matchup. Granted, getting a turn right, making crucial mistakes happens all the time in mons, but what I think can be argued here, and imo why I'm favourable to a full suspect discussing it, is whether that reward on a fairly innocuous mistake is just way too big, or is it just something people should learn to deal with. Getting most predicts right for a game and then losing like that... idk, I'm not super comfortable with what that means.

So yeah imo, Linoone being suspected is perfectly reasonable. It's the main culprit on screens being this obnoxious, it can be tailored to various playstyles, not just "cheese" HO, in order to capitalize on the fairly small list of reliable answers we have to begin with, and it lopsides matchups like nothing else we have at the moment. If Stakataka was considered broken so pretty much a lot of the same reasons, I don't think it's much of a stretch to apply the reasoning to Linoone.

Im still on the fence with this whole linoone thing but if im being honest the replays didnt totally convince me :(
In the game against blazingdark(https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ru-888426983 ) it felt to me like he was moreso weak to froslass than anything else, not to mention that you froze his virizion and he offered all the chip you needed on his tyrantrum(his linoone check) a bit too easily.
In the game against pepeduce(https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ru-864501059 ) He opts to not only have metagross mash froslass twice which is what allowed linoone to sweep when he had better options for dealing with lead froslass like pod for example, a mon that was significantly less useful in the matchup.
In the last game you are both running super offensive teams, so the situation you described isnt all that crazy to me, also, i dont feel like its fair saying that 'spin would have been his best play if it wasnt for linoone so he clicked it and lost' there was a linoone, spin wasnt his best play, he clicked and got punished.
Like i said, still on the fence. I do kinda feel like linoone could be a problem, but(and this isnt referring to you specifically) i feel like this whole thing is being exagerated a bit and should be looked at a bit more carefully.

 

[EviGaro]

I'm not entirely sure how that disproves the point either when it's mostly about the luck based factor of it. This doesn't work with just Froslass, a bad crit can frick up an entire game plan to check one mon or a bad status, but I think getting 30% to win games is an obvious example of luck based strats making it easier. It's not really about dissecting the matchups necessarily (I could go on about Mandi being a supposed Linoone check without rocks up or Virizion being useless af in this anyway, or Pod being extremely good actually against Pod resist Salazzle but), but if we do go on to your arguments... Virtually all the game is about Linoone positioning. I mean, that's it right? Because most of what I see is "how to lose to Linoone less easily" but 1 - doesn't really say how they're supposed to check everything else and 2 - doesn't even imply that they wouldn't lose to Linoone eventually anyway.

That, on top of the pure dumb luck factor when considering the potential instability of its checks, is definitely why I think a suspect is absolutely worth it. And yes, I do think a play that in itself doesn't hinder a team's full positioning shouldn't really lead to an insta loss unless it's randbats or something. That's just dumb to me, and it places Linoone as one of the very few things able to do it in this metagame, with maybe Barb and stretching really far Zydog. But I already said why I think Linoone is different and far less easy to reliably come back in the game if you fail to prevent the setup.

 

[snow]

Thought I would throw my two cents on the topic of Linoone and Screens as this thread seems to be less heated right now. From watching tour/ladder games and playing on ladder, the thing that peeves me the most about Linoone is its ability to prey on the fact that Pokemon is a luck based game. I have seen stuff like Cursed Body, Parahax, and missed moves allowing Linoone to sweep. So even if you play the game as well as you can in order to allow counter play vs Linoone it can still win if one turn goes the way of the Linoone user. It's not exactly like you can list revenge killers due to the fact it gets Extreme Speed and is behind screens most of the time. I'm not trying to justify Linoone being the best Pokemon in the tier either, more the fact that it is the best Pokemon that can play off of luck. It may be extreme but I even mentioned in room that you could probably run 1 Ground-type, 4 Glare/Twave Pokemon and Linoone and still have a good chance of winning no matter how unviable the other Pokemon are because you only need 1/2 turns to go your way.

I also would like to say that I do not think suspecting screens is necessary at the moment because there is no Pokemon in the meta you'd be able to put on a screens team as a replacement to Linoone that would make it anywhere near as good. Screens in itself is not broken because other set up sweepers can be revenge killed and your team should really have counter play to Pokemon like Barbaracle, Virizion etc even under screens. If we were to ban Linoone I can imagine screens usage would drop massively no longer being a huge issue but still a viable strategy to use.

I'd like to see a suspect for Linoone but then I'd like to see how screens evolves and maybe if it stays out of hand can be resolved later on. Once again I'm not saying Linoone is busted because its the best RU Pokemon, I just feel it is unhealthy for the metagame.

 

[Slyish]

Seeing all these takes on Linoone and screens, I'd like to add a few things as well as my personal thoughts.

To start, I definitely agree that screens aren't the problem. It is true that screens have remained the same since the start of gen 7, however, no mon has been able to abuse it as well as Linoone. Screens haven't had the same usage until now because there haven't been many pokemon capable of abusing them (I will talk about pokemon in the next paragraph don't worry, just on screens for right now). All pokemon in the RU tier that are using screens rn are all pokemon that have been available all of gen 7. Although screens are a viable strat, like I said before, there hasn't been pokemon that can use it to its full potential. If we are wanting to ban screens, then banning momento and yawn should also be in the discussion, right? I think anyone wanting to ban screens or any other sort up assist are oblivious to what is actually happening.

Now, I 100% agree that Linoone deserves a suspect test at the least. Linoone has become a menace recently with its ability to run through teams with priority and its ability to have many different sets/moves to cover team weaknesses or cover bulkier pokemon that don't die to its regular move spread. Screens are very helpful in assisting Linoone (as well as other assist moves), however, they aren't needed. Being able to Belly Drum and remain at 100% allows Linoone to set up without risk of dying, and proceed to win the game. On most mons that Linoone Belly Drums on, they aren't able to OHKO it in return, allowing Linoone to live stronger moves that should be killing when Linoone is at 50%. If you are setting up Linoone in front of a Bewear, you aren't using Linoone right. Looking at the moves he has, movesots can be changed based on whatever you need. I've seen regular Linoone sets, changing around Shadow Claw, Seed Bomb, Stomping Tantrum etc... when needed and even running Double Edge or Return for stronger stab that kills bulkier pokemon that don't die to E Speed (Bewear, Milotic, Slowbro are a few names). Even though Linoone is a one trick pony, its versatility in moveset allow it potentially 6-0 any team. I've seen people mention luck like with Froslass disabling a scarfer or someone making what is believed to be an optimal play that Linoone can take advantage of, and it's very true. With mons helping Linoone that don't even have to be fully assist mons, there are bound to be some way that Linoone will win no matter what, whether it be from chip, screens, or a disable. If you make a Linoone team without considering how it can win the game, don't make a Linoone team. (btw the point lighthouses makes againt EviGaro is a little bs considering that Ribombee could've constantly threatened the opponents team with moonblast or webs unless killed so keeping it alive or switching out into another attack wouldn't be optimal. Getting chip on Metagross, the only mon that would've been able to handle Ribombee without taking too much or being threatened, would've been chipped enough to die to Linoone anyways. The dude might as well have just ff'd at that the beginning of the game).

All that considered, Linoone is still way too massive of a presence for it to run rampant around the tier. Maybe if something like First Impression had higher priority or if there were literally any way to revenge kill/not have to throw away 18 pokemon to beat it, then it could remain RU. Since these aren't really options. I think a suspect test is needed for Linoone, and I think screens should remain the same.

 

[eifo]

I'll try to be concise for once, so bear with me.

First of all, I completely disagree that screens are somehow the same as memento or yawn. While yes, the latter two can indeed be used to ease set up for an abuser, it is not as hard to deal with as screens. For one, the amount of mons that get yawn or memento is very limited. Secondly, you can to a much bigger extent play around it, not letting the set up sweeper in for free with a yawn/memento up. Thirdly, it is way easier to revenge the set up sweeper when screens are not up.

Another funny side note is that the best yawn user also happens to be the best screens setter in the tier, so they're also kinda linked. Unless you have defog Mandi specifically, Meowstic traps+screens+yawns into a set up mon. Additionally, other screens setter with taunt screens uturn/boom don't give a fuck about Mandi at all. Gastro can function similarily, with block+yawn, trapping in passive mons that want to come in on it for an abuser in the back to set up. However, this is not quite as effective, since it is easier to revenge something that is not behind screens. In the end, yawn is only an issue because of block, which if anything just goes to show that this is the move that really should be banned, due to trapping being being non-competitive.

Now onto screens. I'm not entirely sure as to whether or not screens themselves are broken, irrespective of Linoone's presence. What it is though, mind you, is a formulaic, mindless play style that rewards people regardless of their skill level, i.e. it is non-competitive. This alone I feel is enough justification for banning it. I also suspect that once Linoone has been banned, Screens will still find a decent replacement, albeit not as effective of a recipient as the little fucker currently is.

Linoone itself is obviously not competitive in the slightest. No need to reiterate the points already made about it in this thread once again, you can just scroll up and read them again if you really need to. In my opinion the best way going forward would be to suspect Linoone first. We then suspect screens once it is gone, that way there is no confusion as to whether screens is only broken because of it, or if it is just plain stupid all on its own.

 

[phantom]

https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/np-ru-stage-17-slow.3651420/

linoone test, locking this for now. feel free to take the discussion to the next thread

 

[Sacrificed]

 

[esche]

 

[TheJimJims]

I feel like an unintended consequence of Linoone's ban is that the fast choice users + Salazzle are going to see a lot more play. Now that they can actually play the game and not get ohkod by Espeed, people are going to use them more liberally. Band Zygarde-10% might be on the field for more than one turn :D

 

[feen]

Last but not the least, we are retesting Mega Absol! Mega Absol will be allowed in the RU ladder for a week!
Mega Absol was banned due to having a high atk + speed stat alongside moves such as Swords Dance and Sucker Punch, making it a dangerous threat to both offensive and balanced teams.
Has the tier changed enough for Mega Absol to not be broken? Discuss here below! Participating might get you a spot in the rotating council.
Taggin Marty to implement Mega Absol in RU ladder.

The retest period will end on 11th July 23:59 EDT

 

[snow]

After using Mega Absol and getting slapped by it. I'm going to put a bunch of calcs down.

Revenge killers getting bopped

+2 252 Atk Absol-Mega Sucker Punch vs. 76 HP / 0 Def Metagross: 408-480 (127.5 - 150%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 Atk Absol-Mega Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Salazzle: 382-450 (137.9 - 162.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 Atk Absol-Mega Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Zygarde-10%: 337-397 (135.3 - 159.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 Atk Absol-Mega Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Noivern: 306-361 (98.3 - 116%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Absol-Mega Play Rough vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Virizion: 286-338 (88.5 - 104.6%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 Atk Absol-Mega Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Blastoise: 253-298 (84.6 - 99.6%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 Atk Absol-Mega Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Raikou: 322-381 (100.3 - 118.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 Atk Absol-Mega Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Gardevoir: 358-423 (129.2 - 152.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 Atk Absol-Mega Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Sceptile-Mega: 322-381 (114.5 - 135.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 Atk Absol-Mega Sucker Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Goodra: 340-402 (105.5 - 124.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 Atk Absol-Mega Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Houndoom: 220-260 (75.6 - 89.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 Atk Absol-Mega Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Flygon: 306-361 (101.6 - 119.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 Atk Absol-Mega Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Swellow: 382-450 (146.3 - 172.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 Atk Absol-Mega Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Yanmega: 288-340 (92 - 108.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

Revenge killers getting slightly less bopped

+2 252 Atk Absol-Mega Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Shaymin: 255-300 (74.7 - 87.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 Atk Absol-Mega Sucker Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Tyrantrum: 220-259 (71.8 - 84.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Revenge killers not getting bopped

252+ Atk Insect Plate Golisopod First Impression vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Absol-Mega: 570-672 (210.3 - 247.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Tsareena Power Whip vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Absol-Mega: 280-331 (103.3 - 122.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 Atk Absol-Mega Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Passimian: 139-164 (40.7 - 48%) -- 6.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Assuming it can get +2 which it can against a lot of less threatening Pokemon such as Registeel, Bronzong etc it is able to pretty much sweep most offensive teams with any of the revenge killers listed in the first set of calcs. It also can get rid of Tyrantrum and Shaymin after a little chip. The best revenge killers vs Mega Absol come with Choice Scarf Tsareena, Choice Scarf Passimian, and obviously Golisopod. In my opinion just making it a less gimmicky version of Linoone and actually useful without setting up. Not only that but it also has like 100 moves it can make use of including Play Rough, Iron Tail, Fire Blast, Superpower, Pursuit, and Stone Edge. Play Rough also deals with Virizion, Machamp, etc. Iron Tail can hit Fairy-types harder too.

 

[Fragmented]

That's a nice list, but I think it can use a few more additions

vs Ribombee

+2 252 Atk Absol-Mega Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Ribombee: 192-226 (73.5 - 86.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

vs Whimsicott

+2 252 Atk Absol-Mega Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Whimsicott: 145-171 (55.5 - 65.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

vs Bewear

+2 252 Atk Absol-Mega Play Rough vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Fluffy Bewear: 262-310 (68.5 - 81.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Comfey

252+ SpA Life Orb Triage Comfey Draining Kiss vs. 0 HP / 4- SpD Absol-Mega: 289-343 (106.6 - 126.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO 252+ SpA Triage Comfey Draining Kiss vs. 0 HP / 4- SpD Absol-Mega: 222-264 (81.9 - 97.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Scarf Croak, I guess?

+2 252 Atk Absol-Mega Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Toxicroak: 180-213 (58.6 - 69.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Scarf Emboar, as well?

+2 252 Atk Absol-Mega Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Emboar: 179-211 (49.5 - 58.4%) -- 98.8% chance to 2HKO

At this point, I'm just pulling at straws and digging in the dregs of viable pokemon. Stuff like Incineroar would be able to eat hits bar Superpower and OHKO with Flare Blitz or Drain Punch. Most Fighting-types would need Choice Scarves to revenge kill, and the Absol can still switch out to wreck another day. All I'm saying is there are other checks and I just wanted to add to the list. Haven't play tested with Absol yet, but I already have a feeling that it might be too much.

 

[Denial]

After playing with it for a bit, i think Mega Absol is actually too strong for this tier. Dark coverage is alredy super good in this tier, and Mega Absol has all the coverage it needs to bop every single resist: for example, Diancie and Florges get destroyed by Iron Tail, and Fighting Types and Dark Types by Play Rough. Its also super difficult to revengkill it with a scarfer that isnt named Passimian or with First Impression Golisopod. You could argue that its bulk and typing are super bad and difficult to setup with, and honestly youre rigth lol, and thats what still makes me think that Mega Absol isnt completely broken. But as i alredy said, its not actually that hard considering how threatening is Absol's coverage. Non-SD sets with Pursuit are also super good, being able to revengkill a lot of threats in the meta and forcing stupids 50/50 vs weakened threats like Swellow or Salazzle. Ive also tried to explore Mega Absol even more, and it is actually a great addition to stall teams, since it can wish pass, Magic Bounce vs rockers like Registeel, and trap with Pursuit big threats for stall like Marowak Alola and Mismagius. I didnt really try mixed versions, i guess it could lure checks like Forretress and Bewear, but overall a Forretress without leftovers is a dead Forretress and Bewear is easy enough to lure with coverage like Superpower and Play Rough after a SD, so yeah i dont think its worth using. So overall, i think this mon is nowhere near broken, as it is still weak to revengkillers like Passimian and Golisopod and still has checks depending on the movepool, but i feel like it is just too stupidly strong to let it getting freed.

 

[Flseys]

After toying around with and against it for the last week I will post what I think. As a disclaimer, I've never posted here and if I do something wrong I apologize. I have personally found Mega Absol to be very good, but not so much that I think it overpowers the meta. Its wide move pool makes it a bit tricky to know what to expect, on the other hand it also makes it tricky to use. The vast majority of every set I've come across have had swords dance/sucker punch/iron tail/??? as the move set. The last move has been a crazy amount of options, superpower/prusuit/knock off were common I even saw a fire blast.

It gets revenge killed by a fair amount considering how frail it is.

To add to the pokemon listed above that revenge kill it well enough;
+2 252 Atk Absol-Mega Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Blastoise-Mega: 217-256 (72.5 - 85.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 Atk Absol-Mega Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Virizion: 166-196 (51.3 - 60.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 Atk Absol-Mega Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Honchkrow: 212-250 (62.1 - 73.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (loses to stone edge or superpower Absol)
+2 252 Atk Absol-Mega Sucker Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Donphan: 219-258 (57 - 67.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

[EviGaro]

Council has voted on Mega-Absol, here are the results:

Keep banned: Ajna, col49, eternally, Feliburn
Unban for suspect: Arifeen, EviGaro, MrAldo, phantom
Abstain: roman

Because the unban side did not get a clear majority of the votes, Mega-Absol is staying banned from RU. Tagging Marty so that Mega-Absol can be removed from the RU ladder, thank you.

 

[Daswellow]

:(

 

[phantom]

—> UU

—> UU

That looks to be it for the final tier shifts of the gen. These tier shifts are fairly negligible since both Pokemon were uncommon and not even RU by usage, although it always sucks having less options to work with. If there are any last minute tiering concerns, whether or not you guys feel anything should be banned or even retested, now‘s the best time to bring it up; otherwise, we’ll probably just close shop for the remainder of the gen and get ready for gen 8 next month.

 

[Feliburn]

Ok I def want to talk about some pokemon I think deserve a mention (to at least have some records of how the metagame evolved rofl since last post was absol ban)

Starting with Necrozma, a mon that previously wasn't really used but now it's one of the scariest set up breakers in the tier thanks to its high bulk, average speed and the heavy hitting Photon Geyser. With an added Z Heat Wave, this pokemon is able to get past teams that rely on fat steels to beat it. I think it had a really high impact on the tier due to how common BO was as a playstyle, perhaps the most dominating one in terms of usage. Tho lately RU has taken a more balanced approach meaning this pokemon is probably better checked, regardless it's still a very strong and scary pokemon to face, however it also means different sets could be explored to catch people off guard, such as the latest showed Substitute by rabbit.

Next up is Passimian, feel like this mon finally established itself as a top tier fighting type, high physical bulk, decent speed and high hitting power, not to mention the ability to heavily punish defogs thanks to Defiant. This mon overall is perhaps our second best fighting type aside from Virizion, and even then in my builds I find more utility in Pass than viriz. Rlly happy to see this mon being more explored as of lately in official play, which ideally translates to ladder and other tournaments.

Finally I just wanna mention how stronger Balance feels rn compared to the previous metas, feel like it's becoming more and more popular, overtaking the spot BO had as perhaps the best archetype of building, but who knows, I'm only speaking based of the recent snake showings but it does give that impression.

In terms of tiering, I dont think there's a pokemon that deserves a ban right now, I personally still feel Talonflame would have been fun in the tier but thats just my personal bias.

 

[Mavis]

Not much I want to chip in other that I'm absurdly high on Slowbro right now. Coming from someone who preaches Milo as a great mon, my own milo usage has suffered greatly due to how good bro is.

It handily beats recent superstars Passimian and Necrozma with ease outside of absurdly rare z-Signal Beam, and overall a great defensive mon to halt metagross, check virizion and salazzle, and tussle with various phys mons like donphan and bewear.

Speaking of bewear, it's a mon I'm also pretty damn high on right now, albeit I'm not quite sure why. Being a fighting type setup mon that eats Slowbro for breakfast is cool, and it's got loads of defensive utility courtesy of fluffy to spare.

Pass may be better than bewear rn, but bewear easily contends for second best fighting type since champ and croak aren't as good without milo to abuse. Those two despise slowbro.

Free Talonflame please phantom :(

 

[roman]

I'd like to unban Meloetta, I think it's a healthy addition without Celebrate... CM was a nice pick when we had it and it could probably even run like Scarf or something (U-turn and Knock and can pivot into Salazzle and other things). Other than that I would probably still ban Zygarde, but it isn't really all that bad nowadays so it's fine. The meta is shaping up quite nicely even with our staples being wrenched away from us earlier this year, so props to everyone with a say in tiering. Free Meloetta!

Edit: If this goes through I can kind of see people getting worried about it opening up doors for extremely dumb complex unbans like Toxapex without Recover or whatever, but things are going through the council so this won't be a problem.

 

[Kink]

I'd like to unban Meloetta, I think it's a healthy addition without Celebrate... CM was a nice pick when we had it and it could probably even run like Scarf or something (U-turn and Knock and can pivot into Salazzle and other things). Other than that I would probably still ban Zygarde, but it isn't really all that bad nowadays so it's fine. The meta is shaping up quite nicely even with our staples being wrenched away from us earlier this year, so props to everyone with a say in tiering. Free Meloetta!

Edit: If this goes through I can kind of see people getting worried about it opening up doors for extremely dumb complex unbans like Toxapex without Recover or whatever, but things are going through the council so this won't be a problem.

UU banned Mewium Z earlier in SM, which was one of the few times we accepted a complex ban (another time was Baton Pass in ORAS UU). There is a precedent for this type of move, and I'd like the RU council to consider it strongly.

 

[Denial]

UU banned Mewium Z earlier in SM, which was one of the few times we accepted a complex ban (another time was Baton Pass in ORAS UU). There is a precedent for this type of move, and I'd like the RU council to consider it strongly.

i doubt banning mewnium z is a complex ban, its just banning an item, just like when you ban megaevolution. banning a moveslot for every pokèmon is a different story.

 

[Kink]

i doubt banning mewnium z is a complex ban, its just banning an item, just like when you ban megaevolution. banning a moveslot for every pokèmon is a different story.

You're not wrong, but our ORAS UU Baton Pass complex ban fits that story, and man is it quite a tale!

 

[Fragmented]

I'm not qualified to say too much on this, but I think it's a pretty bad idea. Yeah, gen 6 had complex bans surrounding baton pass, but we don't do that in gen 7 anymore, bar the UU drought ban to free mega houndoom. I feel that talking about banning Celebrate is really going to derail the thread since it hasn't even be talked about until now, so I'll try to keep my two cents to one.

Z-Celebrate Meloetta is broken in the vacuum of RU. Z-Celebrate Meloetta is a niche pick to bring in UU and OU. Comparing to the example of Charizard from PU, or Venusaur from NU, Z-Celebrate sets were a contributing factor (though not the only factor) to their eventual ban. However, stuff like Z-Celebrate Vaporeon or Z-Happy Hour Malamar is niche or outclassed. And Charizard and Venusaur aren't even use in the NU and RU that much for their Z-Celebrate sets (don't quote me on that).

I guess the point I'm trying to make is, that while it's threatening, Z-Celebrate isn't the issue, Meloetta is. I know it's blatantly obvious that the reason this was brought up in the first place was for a Meloetta unban, but banning a relatively un-broken element to introduce something which has proven to be a problem is probably not a good idea, and it sets an unwanted precedent that complex bans are okay (which was what the UU Drought Ban Mega Houndoom Unban did in a way). Also, if you don't think Meloetta is broken, look at Necrozma in the current metagame. Do we really need to introduce another strong wall breaker/set-up sweeper to check?