Resource USUM PU Viability Rankings

Disagree with alola-slash going to S-, i feel like it's just not quite on par with the top of the tier and there are lots of rockers + hazard stackers that are adapting to its exploitable typing, e.g hp fighting mesp.
Agree with guzzlord going to S- however, it's got some seriously excellent glue typing, though I think the meta is largely not used to it yet, hence not a lot has adapted to it - i'm hesitant to think it will stay there long however due to the presence of fighters and fairy coverage the tier has.

My own nom: Hakamo-o -> C rank:
Current choice of set:
Wizzy Lizzy (Hakamo-o) @ Eviolite
Ability: Overcoat
EVs: 248 HP / 96 Def / 164 SpD
Impish Nature
- Drain Punch
- Rest
- Sleep Talk
- Dragon Tail

It's excellent glue in this tier at the moment - amazing bulk and blanket checks just about everything in the tier right now. Hard counters lilligant, excellently checks aggron + status absorbs and phases - which in a tier full of hazard setters is a great asset for most teams and allows something for bulky teams to work with. Obligatory tag of Taskr because it's his pet.
 

MZ

And now for something completely different
is a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Top Team Rater Alumnusis a Social Media Contributor Alumnusis a Community Leader Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Top Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Top Contributor Alumnusis a Top Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnus
Time for another update! Votes are here, and note that LST's been real busy irl so didn't vote on this one (this is also why we ended up with so many split noms).

Rises
Guzzlord -> S-
Eelektross A- to A
Exeggutor (Kanto) Unranked to D

Drops
Jynx A- to B+
Ursaring B- to C+
Bellossom B- to C+
Gourgeist-Super C+ to C
Silvally-Ghost C- to D
Dusknoir D to Unranked

Alolan Sandslash A+ to S-
Ludicolo B+ to A-
Crabominable B to B+
Altaria B to B-
Hakamo-O Unranked to C
Masquerain Unranked to C-/C

50/50
Mudsdale A to A+
Abomasnow B+ to A-
Hitmonchan A- to B+
Shiftry B- to C+
Guzzlord is, unsurprisingly, an excellent mon in the tier, being at once very difficult to switch into and extremely useful defensively. It's got great set diversity, solid typing, and a ridiculous movepool, and I don't think its initial placement in S- should come as a huge surprise. Eelektross also got a bump because those strong AV users are just great right now and this deserves to be in the same rank as Lanturn (don't forget to run Drain Punch/Superpower in that 4th slot though), and the council generally agreed that Exeggutor is an alright enough wallbreaker to warrant D.

On the drops side, pretty much everything is just stuff that's fallen off and seen little usage recently. Jynx could probably get back up if people bothered to start using it again, Ursaring's been hurt by the decreased popularity of Trick Room compared to weather teams, Bellossom is still just kinda hit or miss, and neither Ghostvally nor Dusknoir were any good before Guzzlord made their lives even harder. On the Gourgeist-Super side, the council was 50/50 on leaving it where it is or dropping 2 subranks, so I decided to split the difference and drop it once, but that'll also get into the discussion points.

For rejected nominations, we stuck with last update's conclusion that Alolan Sandslash just isn't quite as strong of a presence as it would need to be to get that S- bump, Teddeh summed it up pretty well. Neither the Ludicolo or Crabominable drops are well supported by how easy they are to fit onto teams or how popular they are at the moment even if they're not bad overall. Altaria was something I added after seeing dislike for it on Discord but nobody really had an issue with its placement. And on Hakamo-O and Masquerain... they're just not really something I can justify well. Masquerain is extremely more effective against low ladder than it is in more competitive situations, and the replays are pretty much entirely completely players struggling with it because they're not playing properly and/or their teams were just bad. Hakamo-O can actually be annoying for certain mons, but from what I can tell hard countering anything is a struggle when the main things it checks tend to be able to break it with their Z-moves (for example, taking 65% min from Z-Hyper Beam Lilligant when you've got no reliable recovery and are vulnerable to all hazards seems pretty problematic). This is in addition to the vast majority of the tier which it just doesn't seem to give any trouble at all to. Maybe I'd be more positive on this if replays were shared, but I've never seen this mon rise above how silly it looks on paper even if I do trust the people that like it.

Some discussion points: Mudsdale A to A+, Abomasnow B+ to A-, Hitmonchan A- to B+, Shiftry B- to C+, Gourgeist-Super's placement in general. I'll also go ahead and add Poliwrath A- to B+, Spiritomb B to B-, and Silvally-Dragon B to B- on there, just a few ideas I had that I wouldn't mind seeing people's opinions on.
 

Katy

Banned deucer.
Mudsdale to A+

I think the horse can rise to A+, it is a good check to physical wallbreakers with Stamina and the bulk it offers, it also stops Volt-Switch, which is pretty useful. I would say it is the best Stealth Rock setter with Alolan-Ssandslash and the utility it offers with Toxic, Protect, Rock Slide and Earthquake is really helpful, It even can run Close Combat if you do wanna lure in a specific mon. This boy should def. rise up because it is really good in the current metagame.

Abomasnow to A-

Another mon i have to agree that it rises, its such a good wallbreaker, not much can switch into its dual STABs and Alola-Slash can be threatened with Earthquake / HP Fire. Its a really good special but also mixed wallbreaker, which I think works pretty well currently with the decrease of Hitmonchan as a decently fast and bulky fighting type, which it struggles with.

Hitmonchan to B+

Don't get me wrong, it is still such a good mon, but it has it's issues in the current metagame due to the rise of Oric-Pom Pom in usage and other potent checks. It has the Last Moveslot issue too. When it doesnt run Thunder-Punch, it'll get hardwalled by certain flyings, but when it goes for Thunder-Punch Oricorio-Pom Pom is such a massive issue. It has to run either T-Punch or I-Punch, since Mach and Drain Punch are staples on it's moveslot. Still good but not THAT good anymore.
 
Last edited:

yogi

I did not succumb...
is a Tutor Alumnusis a Social Media Contributor Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus
ok so thought i'd post when i saw this chan discussion. why is like the only set being considered being av. av is legit ass right now and is probs its worst set because it's abused by like so much, especially the most common rockers and spikers in the tier (like lass absolutely wrecking it). chan has always had versatitlity but idt people have really bothered to explore it as much as they should. personally i think that pinch berry + toxic is a very good set atm, abusing a load of common switchins to it like lass and pom pom. choice band is also a fairy decent set right now, without spin ofc, because it also abuses mons that like to swtich in on it, and can lure a bunch of mons that usually take on av with ease (like doing a fuck load to muds or even mes). bulk up and tect/sub toxic (even though ig the latter work on a load of mons) are also reasonably viable in the current meta. i dont see chan as being a b+ just because it's rlly splashable but also solid glue.

i personally think the jynx drop is hella out of place and it's probs because of people thinking the meta doesn't favour it because of like alolaslash, but i mean unblockable sleep + at least 3 viable sets and dry skin still give it a perfectly good niche but i'm not gonna bother making a full arguement for putting it back in a-.

overall though, even tho i think s- is a dumb rank, i think the vr looks p on point. things that shouldn't be there are finally being removed and mons aren't getting as overhyped as they used to (like alolaslash). i'd still personally like to see colo higher, because it's like insanely good to use, but i may make a proper post on that if i can be arsed.
 
Last edited:

UberSkitty

Assist Skitty was too broken for NDUbers
is a Site Content Manageris a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
Hi here's some quick noms

Pinsir: B -> B+

I don't know when and why this mon was dropped, cuz I thought B+ was fine for it. It has a great movepool that lets you choose between two setup options, Z-Me First and Swords Dance, and pretty much unresisted coverage between X-Scissor, Earthquake, and Stone Edge. Even without the Attack boost, its Attack stat is great, and similar can be said about its Speed, albeit less so. It's just overall a solid wallbreaker/stallbreaker/sweeper that has no large downside to bring it all the way down to B.

Simipour: D -> C+/C
This mon is underrated and I will continue to stand by that point. Similar to Simisear it has excellent coverage, and of course the big thing that is access to Nasty Plot. While coverage is a slight problem for it with Floatzel floating around, its coverage makes it a fine alternate option with things like Quagsire and Gastrodon existing. Furthermore, even with Guzzlord entering the tier, it can't say it's a counter considering Simipour OHKOes at +2 with Z-Ice Beam (which also notably OHKOes Lilligant without any boost). It's not some gimmick like a lot of the other mons in D, its just another solid setup mon.

Silvally-Dragon and Silvally-Fairy: B -> B-/C+
This mon just tries too hard to accomplish so much role compression it just fails to be outstanding at any one of them. It doesn't help that it lacks an form of recovery, no item, and mediocre stats. The main thing saving these mons are their typings and alright role compression if you really need it all on one mon.

Silvally-Water: B- -> C+/C
I made this nom a while ago but it was skipped in the votes smh. Anyway, similar to the two above, this mon just tries to do too much. However, the major thing separating this from those other two is just how many better options for Water-types their are, such as Quagsire, Jellicent, Lanturn, ect. Even Silvally-Dragon has similar resistances. It can again be a decent option if you really need the role compression, but I'd avoid using it otherwise.
 

INSANE CARZY GUY

Banned deucer.
I hard agree with pinsir, I keep wanting to build with it but I've been holding off on the insane wall breakers(speaking of which I think the meta is about to start looking even better for gurdurr again).

Simipour actually was recently a pick for its physical scarf set, sure not the current best pick, but I like that it can get a solid roll after stealth rock vs lilligant, but that's still hoping on an 80% roll and I just so happened to need that over floz


But I think outside of being bulky pivots I feel like this isn't a place for electric type pokemon like Manectric, just a much worse win con late game scarf locked and on the orb set the choice for hp grass/ ground for lantern,hp ice for the non sense grounds or hp fighting for guzzlord. Just so many vest users coming in and winning long term pivot wars might make dropping a rank worth seeing soon
 

ManOfMany

I can make anything real
is a Tiering Contributor
UberSkitty i dont think you understand what silvally does. i refuse to elaborate further i just think your post is misinformed
very insightful post, thanks Rob.

anyways I agree, the main Silvally forms shouldn't drop because they are definitely some of the most reliable hazard removers in the tier, something that is still super useful because Spikes Offense is still the best type of offense. FairyVally Defogs while checking Guzz/Drampa and fighting-types to an extent, which is more than enough to be considered for a team slot. Silvally-Water and Silvally-Dragon aren't quite as good, but Water is one of the more reliable removers on Regirock and Mudsdale while also checking AlolaSlash, and Dragon is just a generally good pivot into Fire and Grass types. Are they offensively mediocre? yeah, but they're not a momentum suck because of Parting Shot and definitely bulky enough to make up for it. The only reason to use these mons may be role compression, but they do a decent enough job of it not to go below B-.
 

PILZ

Banned deucer.
Hello its my first time posting here dont be rude with me.

So first lets talk about the pokemons already nomed:

Mudsdale A -> A+ Agree
Im pretty sure that the horse deserves this rank, hes one of the bests rock setters in the tier, his defensive typing and natural bulk + his unique and very useful ability makes him a great check to physical hits. He has access to a lot of useful support moves like Stealth Rock, Toxic, Protect (Protox is pretty annoying ) Roar, Rest + Sleep Talk, and a lot of offensive moves like Earthquake, Rock Slide, Heavy Slam and Close Combat. His main sets are rocks leftovers protox and rocks figy berry, but I think that theres a lot of other sets that arent too much explored like rest-talk with eq and toxic, and my boy CB HORSE, damn 125 of base Attack is pretty respectable. For these reasons I think that the horse should be A+.

Abomasnow B+ -> A- Agree
Obama hasnt a good defensive typing, with a few useful resists like ground and water, and a lot of weakness, especially x4 to fire and to rock, but on the other hand, has an excelent offensive typing + a weather setting ability, what is always really good vs other weather team, and mainly sun and rain that need to be setted with moves. His good coverage makes him a great physical and special attacker, with moves like Blizzard, Giga Drain, Focus Blast, HP Fire, Wood Hammer, Ice Shard, Ice Punch, Earthquake and Swords Dance as setup move. with all this options is pretty hard to check all his variations, that are mainly Mixed Life Orb and SD Zmove, with some other sets like Choice Scarf. His speed is not that great but he does his wallbreaker function really well and I think that he deserves this rank.

Hitmonchan A- -> B+ Disagree
Well, its kinda hard to explain this but, I disagree with this drop mainly because Guzzlord in the tier, Hitmonchan is one of the best offensive checks to guzz, if you look to the VR, the only other mon with at least rank A- that can check guzz with this mastery is Articuno, (both still losing to some variations like CB or Z Outrage but guzz is broken what can I do) also, he still a good AV user and spinner, with a good attack and special defense stats, and some useful coverage moves like Thunder Punch, Ice Punch, Stone Edge and Throat Chop (damn this move is so underrated). Some other sets like Life Orb, Choice Band and Scarf (most without spin to abuse of his power and coverage) are also pretty decent and not always remembered.

Shiftry B- -> C+ Disagree
Even with Guzzlord in the tier now (damn guzz is so annoying this shit checks so many things and hits so strong rofl), Shiftry still with a good niche with his good offensive typing (and terrible defensive as well), a good coverage with Knock Off, Leaf Blade, Leaf Storm, Sucker Punch, Low Kick (take this fucking ub) and Explosion. Also Swords Dance as setup move and Defog as support move. Mainly options are Mixed Life Orb and SD Zmove (same as obama) and some other sets like Chlorophyl Sweeper and Choice Scarf are on his arsenal and for these reasons I think he should stay on his rank.

Poliwrath A- -> B+ Agree
I always thought that this boy didnt deserve an A- Rank, not in a metagame without Houndoom or Kingler, mainly because his offensive presence is very poor, he has a good offensive coverage but with his miserable 70 base special attack and only access to low base power physical moves, doesnt compensates his good defensive typing and ability to work as a tank, been limited to a rest talk set if want to recover your hp, or to a protox set to have some passive recover and punish some switch ins. But still working well in hazard stack teams and should be in a B+ Rank. (Its hard to say this after a random ladder dude sweep me with amnesia bulk up rest poliwrath but yeah).

Spiritomb B -> B- Agree
I never liked this boy at all, offensive sets are limited to Pursuit and Sucker Punch, without a good stab that dont depends if the opponent attacks or switchs, and he hasnt an impressive physical bulk, so isnt too hard to pressure Calm Mind sets, and with 2 Scrappy Normal Types at A+ rank makes even hard to this boy does something, so offensive sets are outclassed by others dark types, and defensive sets are outclassed by sableye, and I dont see a reason to rank this guy at this high, B- or less should be enough.

Silvally-Dragon B -> B- Agree
Still a decent pokemon but isnt so good at all as a defogger, and with a new Dragon type introduced his niche as offensive fire water and grass resist is a bit impaired, depending on Draco Meteor to hit things, the drop can make him vulnerable to setup sweepers and some other stuff, so this drop is very explainable.

Silvally-Fairy B -> B- Strongly Disagree
Damn why drop this guy its the main Fairy type in the tier (fuck clefairy), it defogs, it pivot around with parting shot or uturn, it checks a lot of Fight and Dark Types, his Multi Attack is stronger than it looks, and some good special coverage with Flamethrower and Thunderbolt makes him a good pokemon, SD is a relevant set as well, dont drop him hes good.

Silvally-Water B- -> C+ Disagree
This guy I understand why should drop by, a defogger that hits hard almost all stealth rock setters cant be so low, he struggles againt some spikes setters but still pretty decent, a good defensive typing, balanced stats like all silvallys and the good coverage (that all silvallys has as well) and also options like a more bulk or an offensive defogger makes him very decent in this meta.

Simipour D -> C Agree
All the Simiboys are very decents, specially the Fire Boy, I guess this guy deserve more than a D rank.


Pinsir B -> B+ idk
This Im not sure about what I think, Z Me First and SD Mold Breaker are very good sets but I dont know if this deserve a rank so high without many spotlight besides his nomination.

Now is time to my own noms.

Lurantis B -> B+/A-
How this thing is ranked so low LMAO, I dont understand why, Contrary Superpower and Leaf Storm, damn is so hard to stop this, if your grass check hits physical, after some boosts it doesnt check anymore. With a good defensive stabs makes it even harder to break, some other offensive moves like Leaf Blade, Knock Off and Hidden Power can be used, and support moves like Defog and Aromatherapy makes it a very reliable defogger or cleric, without mention Synthesis as recover move too, or a rest talk set to cure status and stuff.
Here is a good example of how it works, I should have more replays with it but I didnt save :(
And ofc some Calcs
252 Atk Dodrio Brave Bird vs. +1 248 HP / 252+ Def Lurantis: 182-216 (53 - 62.9%)
252 Atk Dodrio Brave Bird vs. +2 248 HP / 252+ Def Lurantis: 134-162 (39 - 47.2%)
252+ Atk Choice Band Aggron Head Smash vs. +1 248 HP / 252+ Def Lurantis: 186-219 (54.2 - 63.8%)
252 Atk Primeape Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Lurantis: 130-154 (37.9 - 44.8%)
252 Atk Primeape Close Combat vs. +1 248 HP / 252+ Def Lurantis: 87-103 (25.3 - 30%)
252 Atk Primeape Gunk Shot vs. +1 248 HP / 252+ Def Lurantis: 116-138 (33.8 - 40.2%)
252 Atk Skuntank Poison Jab vs. +1 248 HP / 252+ Def Lurantis: 108-128 (31.4 - 37.3%)
252 Atk Technician Scyther Aerial Ace vs. +1 248 HP / 252+ Def Lurantis: 134-162 (39 - 47.2%)
252 Atk Scyther U-turn vs. +1 248 HP / 252+ Def Lurantis: 104-126 (30.3 - 36.7%)
252+ Atk Kabutops Continental Crush (180 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Lurantis: 229-270 (66.7 - 78.7%)
0 Atk Sandslash-Alola Icicle Crash vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Lurantis: 144-170 (41.9 - 49.5%)
0 Atk Sandslash-Alola Icicle Crash vs. +1 248 HP / 252+ Def Lurantis: 96-114 (27.9 - 33.2%)
252 Atk Sandslash-Alola Icicle Crash vs. +1 248 HP / 252+ Def Lurantis: 120-144 (34.9 - 41.9%)
252+ Atk Choice Band Stoutland Return vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Lurantis: 189-223 (55.1 - 65%)
252+ Atk Choice Band Stoutland Return vs. +1 248 HP / 252+ Def Lurantis: 127-150 (37 - 43.7%)
252+ Atk Silk Scarf Kangaskhan Double-Edge vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Lurantis: 160-190 (46.6 - 55.3%)
252+ Atk Silk Scarf Kangaskhan Double-Edge vs. +1 248 HP / 252+ Def Lurantis: 108-127 (31.4 - 37%)
252 Atk Lycanroc Splintered Stormshards vs. +1 248 HP / 252+ Def Lurantis: 147-174 (42.8 - 50.7%)
252 Atk Lycanroc Splintered Stormshards vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Lurantis: 220-259 (64.1 - 75.5%)
252+ Atk Life Orb Absol Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Lurantis: 175-207 (51 - 60.3%)
252+ Atk Life Orb Absol Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. +1 248 HP / 252+ Def Lurantis: 117-138 (34.1 - 40.2%)

Mawile C+ -> B-
Mawile is a very underrated pokemon imo, has a good offensive and defensive typing, stats are not so great but with a good offensive ability (Sheer Force), and a good defensive ability (Intimidate), makes it a very versatile pokemon, also with a very large movepool, support moves like Stealth Rock, Toxic, Super Fang, Foul Play and Pain Split, and offensive coverage with Play Rough, Iron Head, Knock Off, Sucker Punch, Thunder Punch, Fire Blast and ofc Swords Dance, without mention that the dual stab of this lady is resisted by very few things (aka Qwilfish, Metang and Bronzor). Also her defensive typing give her some good resistences, like Flying (checking very well Dodrio and Scyther for example), Rock (mainly Lycanroc, cuz Aggron can still break it), Dark (checking any dark type that hits physical) and Normal (you guys know all the normal type squad in this tier but mainly Stoutland and Kangaskhan).
Defensive
-1 136+ Atk Iron Fist Hitmonchan Drain Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mawile: 67-81 (22 - 26.6%)
-1 252+ Atk Choice Band Stoutland Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mawile: 65-77 (21.3 - 25.3%)
-1 252+ Atk Choice Band Stoutland Superpower vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mawile: 102-121 (33.5 - 39.8%)
-1 252+ Atk Silk Scarf Kangaskhan Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mawile: 55-66 (18 - 21.7%)
-1 252+ Atk Kangaskhan Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mawile: 104-124 (34.2 - 40.7%)
-1 252 Atk Lycanroc Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mawile: 40-48 (13.1 - 15.7%)
-1 252 Atk Lycanroc Drill Run vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mawile: 86-102 (28.2 - 33.5%)
+1 252 Atk Lycanroc Drill Run vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mawile: 192-228 (63.1 - 75%)
-1 252 Atk Dodrio Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mawile: 46-55 (15.1 - 18%)
-1 252 Atk Dodrio Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mawile: 52-62 (17.1 - 20.3%)
+1 252 Atk Dodrio Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mawile: 117-138 (38.4 - 45.3%)
-1 252 Atk Skuntank Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mawile: 28-33 (9.2 - 10.8%)
-1 0 Atk Sandslash-Alola Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mawile: 78-92 (25.6 - 30.2%)
-1 252+ Atk Kabutops Liquidation vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mawile in Rain: 114-135 (37.5 - 44.4%)
-1 252+ Atk Life Orb Qwilfish Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mawile in Rain: 122-146 (40.1 - 48%)
0 SpA Mesprit Psychic vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Mawile: 81-96 (26.6 - 31.5%)
0 SpA Froslass Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Mawile: 64-76 (21 - 25%)

Offensive
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Mawile Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 240+ Def Mesprit: 286-339 (78.5 - 93.1%)
252+ Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Mawile Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 240+ Def Mesprit: 144-172 (39.5 - 47.2%)
252+ Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Mawile Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 212 Def Eviolite Gurdurr: 250-296 (66.8 - 79.1%)
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Mawile Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 212 Def Eviolite Gurdurr: 499-588 (133.4 - 157.2%)
252+ Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Mawile Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Oricorio-Pom-Pom: 273-321 (77.1 - 90.6%)
252+ Atk Life Orb Mawile Sucker Punch vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Oricorio-Pom-Pom: 110-130 (31 - 36.7%)
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Mawile Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 56+ Def Regirock: 351-413 (96.4 - 113.4%)
252+ Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Mawile Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Eelektross: 246-290 (65.7 - 77.5%)
252+ Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Mawile Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 224+ Def Jellicent: 188-224 (46.5 - 55.4%)
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Mawile Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 224+ Def Jellicent: 378-446 (93.5 - 110.3%)
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Mawile Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 128 Def Mudsdale: 360-425 (89.1 - 105.1%)
252+ Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Mawile Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 128 Def Mudsdale: 181-214 (44.8 - 52.9%)
4 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Mawile Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 208+ SpD Sandslash-Alola: 328-390 (92.6 - 110.1%)
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Mawile Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Sandslash-Alola: 309-367 (87.2 - 103.6%)
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Mawile Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Unaware Quagsire: 165-195 (41.8 - 49.4%)
252+ Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Mawile Iron Head vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Articuno: 367-432 (95.8 - 112.7%)
252+ Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Mawile Play Rough vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Carracosta: 161-191 (55.7 - 66%)
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Mawile Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 192+ Def Carracosta: 251-296 (71.3 - 84%)
252+ Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Mawile Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 192+ Def Carracosta: 126-149 (35.7 - 42.3%)
252+ Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Mawile Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Poliwrath: 429-507 (111.7 - 132%)
252+ Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Mawile Iron Head vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Victreebel: 259-305 (86 - 101.3%)
252+ Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Mawile Play Rough vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Audino: 231-273 (56.4 - 66.7%)
252+ Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Mawile Play Rough vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Sableye: 354-421 (116.8 - 138.9%)
252+ Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Mawile Play Rough vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Gastrodon: 187-222 (44 - 52.2%)
4 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Mawile Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Eviolite Tangela: 224-265 (67 - 79.3%)

Dugtrio-Alola B+ -> B
I cant allow a Steel Type been 2hitKoed by Psychic from Mesprit been ranked so high, (252+ SpA Mesprit Psychic vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Dugtrio-Alola: 93-109 (44 - 51.6%) -- 10.5% chance to 2HKO ) the only real decent set in this thing is sub toxic, and the only way for this thing get a sub is in a switch, is very fast and has a decent attack but, It just die to anything, isnt even a glass cannon that hits very strong, is just weak :/, also theres a lot of better things worst ranked, so this thing must drop. (also this shit is very ugly)

Raticate-Alola B -> B-
You cannot rank the rat in the same rank as Absol when RAT IS THE BAD ABSOL, I mean, the Rat misses moves, all moves, and besides access to Uturn (that can miss too), the rat is outclassed by Absol and others Dark Types in everything.
252 Atk Hustle Raticate-Alola Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 128 Def Mudsdale: 141-166 (34.9 - 41%)
252 Atk Absol Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 128 Def Mudsdale: 141-166 (34.9 - 41%)
Is the same damage, and remember that 20% of the times the damage will be this
252 Atk Hustle Raticate-Alola Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 128 Def Mudsdale: 141-166 (0 - 0%)
So a Normal Stab (thats useful Ive to agree) doesnt compensate a high miss rate in 100% accuracy moves (and this rat is very ugly too).
 
Last edited:

UberSkitty

Assist Skitty was too broken for NDUbers
is a Site Content Manageris a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
I created controversy. Cool. But yeah anyway I continued to fiddle with the Silvally's (and Simipour :^)) and can kinda see why people disagreed with some of them. First of all is Silvally-Fairy, who is the one I exaggerated the most. I agree that its one of, if not the, best Fairy-type in the tier when it comes to checking Guzzlord, majorly because it can not only switch in to most of its attacks but can actually KO Guzzlord. However, I stand by that its otherwise an average-at-best option otherwise due to how easily worn down it is, even by the mons it checks. First of all there's the obvious Guzzlord, who on top of carrying coverage like Heavy Slam or Sludge Bomb, can also still dent it even with neutral coverage like Fire Blast. The other notable mon is Gurdurr, who has recently started running Toxic. Its main niche otherwise is that of any Silvally, Defog+Parting Shot, which does give it decent role compression but it isn't particularly a good Defogger with it being walled by Regirock, Mudsdale, and having to choose between hitting Qwilfish and Alolan Sandslash. And if you don't need Defog, Parting Shot is better accomplished by Alolan Persian. Overall, I guess I could see it staying in B for its decent role compression, but I personally wouldn't mind it dropping to B-. However, I can definitely see why C+ is too much of a drop. I also heard an SD set has been running around, and although I haven't tried it yet, I could see a set like that helping it stay in B.
Silvally-Dragon I could also see not being as bad as C+, but that mon I can confidentially say should drop to B-. It's Dragon-type can be cool for its resistances, finding more opportunities to remove hazards with Defog, pivot out with Parting Shot, or fire off a Draco Meteor, but deals with the same major problem as Silvally-Fairy in being so easily worn down by hazards and its checks. The role compression is still nice, but if I wanted something to pick up those resistances and didn't need the Speed or Defog, I'd just go Guzzlord or Drampa, or again Alolan Persian if I wanted Parting Shot. Again maybe not C+ material, but still a B- mon IMO.
I don't have much to say about Silvally-Water, maybe C was a tad bit too much, and it still has that nice role compression, but I'd still use other Water-types if I wanted the bulk and resistances. Not as good as the other two, so C+ is fine for it if you ask me.

Sorry if I made any notably bad points, but if I did, feel free to make a one-liner post about how I know nothing about Silvally

P.S. Simipour for B-, +2 Z-Ice Beam bops Guzzlord, good mon.
 

Greybaum

GENTLEMAN, THIS IS DEMOCRACY MANIFEST
is a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
Mudsdale: A to A+
I agree with rising Mudsdale to A+. I personally think it was on par with Regirock even prior to the shift, but since the shift's dropped I think it's worth pointing out that it has pretty fantastic synergy with Guzzlord. It's a rocker that blanket checks physical attackers, particularly fighting types like Primeape and Gurdurr which Regirock can't handle quite so well. In return Guzz gives Mudsdale another option to soft check Grass and Water types like Lilligant and Jellicent. Raise this boy up.

Hitmonchan: A- to B+
Hitmonchan's AV set lost a lot of its lustre a long time ago, failing to reliably check things it's said to check like Aurorus, Omastar and Lilligant, and failing to spin on the majority of Ghost-types in the tier due to its reliance on AV (in contrast to Alolan Sandslash's ability to just click Toxic on the Sableye or Jellicent coming in).
yogi raises a good argument for set exploration, but until people start using pinch berry or Bulk Up sets I don't think hypothesis alone is reason enough to keep it ranked at A-. Until the other sets start making waves I don't think they should be considered because there's just no evidence that they're any good. I also don't think the mon is very splashable outside of AV; offensive sets can do a lot of damage to traditional checks, sure, but they don't offer any role compression. Any set like Bulk Up or Band would need a team built around them and can't just be shoved onto most teams, at least on paper.

Silvally-Dragon: Keep B
I disagree with Silvally-Dragon dropping. I find it to be the most consistent Silvally form, being the only form with any real offensive presence thanks to Draco Meteor. It also has a unique typing and decent bulk that allows it to offensively check Fire/Water/Grass mons like Simisear, Jellicent, and Lilligant. Draco Meteor is a great move, having little to no resists (especially in tandem with Flamethrower) meaning things like Lanturn and Eel are taking 35%+ every time they come in on it. Obviously this has always been true, but with mons like Clefairy seeing little to no use and threats that Silvally-Dragon forces out like Guzzlord and Drampa rising in usage, this is if anything the best meta it's ever been in.
Again, don't treat it like Silvally-Water or Fairy; it's not meant to be taking hits or switching into things consistently. It comes in once or twice at most, hits hard, pivots out; Defog is just an extra boon it can use since it forces switches so well, a la Swanna. If you're reliant on it for hazard control you aren't using it to its strength, that being a strong pivot mon with a STAB that can be clicked with virtually no drawback.
Also, while I haven't used the set, SD Flame Charge is getting some exploration on seemingly every form, with Dragon looking like the best user of it. I wouldn't say all of this is reason to rise Silvally-Dragon, but I think it's enough to warrant its current standing in B.

Silvally-Water: B- to C+
Silvally-Water on the other hand could probably drop another rank. I won't go in too much detail with this because I've admittedly only used it on a handful of teams, but the conditions for wanting Silvally-Water on your team seem to be pretty niche. It's outclassed by other bulky waters or other Silvally formes on the majority of teams due to any combination of better bulk, recovery, and/or typing. I won't put up a fight if people want to argue against this nom though.

Spiritomb: B to B- or C+
Spiritomb hasn't been relevant for aeons, it's time for a drop. The CroTomb set (CM Rest Talk) only sees use on stall teams nowadays due to the passive nature of the set pre-boost and inability to handle common breakers like Stoutland, Kangaskhan and Aggron, as well as the reliance on Rest for recovery. The Pursuit Trap set still has the same struggles against any relevant Ghost or Psychic mon in the tier since they're all running Colbur and either pivot away from it (Mesprit) or cripple/abuse it (Froslass), and with the likes of Sensu and Haunter having fallen out of favour a while back there's not much this thing does anymore. I think this mon could see some experimentation with Nasty Plot or SubWisp sets but right now it's just not good.

Musharna: C+ to C or C-
On a similar note, it's time for Musharna to fall to C rank, maybe even C-. Trick Room isn't a hot playstyle right now and Calm Mind variants are better done by Mesprit in this metagame, mostly because Musharna is slow, has no way of avoiding status, and is unable to handle both Sandslash-Alola and Dark types like Skuntank and Guzzlord due to Moonlight taking up a slot that could otherwise be used for either Dazzling Gleam or Hidden Power Fighting. Forcing investment in defensive stats also means Musharna can't muscle past checks with raw power and Z-Moves like Mesprit often can. It has matchups where it can work, but I've found that situations where I would have much preferred to be using Mesprit or some other setup mon are extremely common.

Dugtrio-Alola: Unsure, keep B+?
I can see an argument being made for Dugtrio Alola dropping; it doesn't like HP Fighting from Mesprit or Pom-Pom, and bulkier mons like Gurdurr seeing more use hurts it, but checking threats like Scarf Mesprit was never its use; ignore the fact it's a Steel type, Dugtrio-Alola is not a defensive mon and Substitute is not meant to be taking more than one hit. Substitute is there because Dugtrio-Alola's fantastic speed tier and offensive STAB allows it to force switches on the likes of Aurorus, Qwilfish, Aggron etc. and the extra hit lets you whittle down "checks" like Mudsdale and Eelektross with a free Toxic. It's frail, but I don't think your post touched on what Dugtrio-Alola actually does or why it should drop PILZ.

Raticate-Alola: Keep B
Similarly, your post didn't cover any of the advantages of using Raticate-Alola over Absol. In a vacuum where the only available moves are Swords Dance, Knock Off and Sucker Punch, yeah Absol is better, but you can't undervalue how good Double Edge is as a secondary STAB move, especially when you consider that Hustle doesn't lower the accuracy of Z-Moves. Raticate-Alola has far more immediate power than Absol and Dark resists like Silvally-Fairy and Gurdurr are taking far more damage from Raticate-Alola when they come in than Absol could output.
Also, since you brought up U-Turn, it also gets Switcheroo. While it's generally inferior to SD, banded sets are certainly an option to consider whereas Absol really has nothing it can surprise people with.
Relying on Hustle sucks, but Raticate-Alola has enough going for it that it isn't a damning problem.

I also agree with:
Simipour: D to C
Poliwrath: A- to B+
Mawile: C+ to B-
 
Personally, I disagree with the nom to drop Silvally-Water to C+. I use this mon as an offensive Defogger/pivot, and it is quite consistent at checking common hazard setters including Regirock, Aurorus, Mudsdale, Froslass, AlolaSlash, and Qwilfish if running Thunderbolt (although I usually run Flamethrower, which KOs Lilligant after a little chip). In my opinion, the offensive Defog set provides much more utility than the defensive Defog set. Its good speed tier and access to Defog and Parting Shot is more than enough to clearly distinguish it from other bulky Water-types.

Rises


Probopass from C to B-/C+

Mario time (Probopass) @ Leftovers
Ability: Sturdy
EVs: 240 HP / 252 SpD / 16 Spe
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Stealth Rock
- Power Gem
- Toxic
- Protect

As people were saying, this thing is a nice check to Guzzlord, unless Earthquake becomes common. Seriously, this thing is highly underrated regardless. It's sky-high defenses and good defensive typing allows it to serve as a check to Alolan Persian, Mesprit, Skuntank, Lilligant, Froslass, non HP-Fighting Oricorio-E, and many others. Probopass is very consistent at what it does and can be really beneficial defensive glue.

Side note: Offensive Magnet Pull with Air Balloon is an alternative option to trap and neutralize choice-locked Aggron and AlolaSlash.

252+ SpA Choice Specs Guzzlord Dark Pulse vs. 240 HP / 252+ SpD Probopass: 96-114 (29.9 - 35.5%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Oricorio-Pom-Pom Hidden Power Fighting vs. 240 HP / 252+ SpD Probopass: 92-112 (28.6 - 34.8%) -- 3.8% chance to 3HKO
+1 252 SpA Lilligant Giga Drain vs. 240 HP / 252+ SpD Probopass: 88-105 (27.4 - 32.7%) -- 66.1% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 252 SpA Lilligant Bloom Doom (140 BP) vs. 240 HP / 252+ SpD Probopass: 165-195 (51.4 - 60.7%) -- 91.8% chance to 2HKO
+2 252 SpA Persian-Alola Black Hole Eclipse (160 BP) vs. 240 HP / 252+ SpD Probopass: 195-231 (60.7 - 71.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO


Mr. Mime from C to C+

Mr. Mime is a dangerous NP sweeper that can rip holes through stall and unprepared teams. Twinkle Tackle is nothing to laugh at, KOing Skuntank after rocks. At +2, it also KOes defensive Mesprit, Jellicent, Lanturn, Mudsdale, and Regirock after rocks. For those who dislike the unreliability of Focus Blast, Technician HP Fighting is a fair alternative, but it removes Mr. Mime's Soundproof immunity to Drampa's Hyper Voice and Alola Persian's Parting Shot. Additionally, Guzzlord's drop gave it another thing it can beat.

Drops


Aggron from A to A-

For some reason, I feel like Aggron has become less instrumental in recent weeks/months. Maybe it's the decline of Clefairy, the ban of Togedemaru, the influx of deadly sweepers, or the rise of Quagsire, Mudsdale, and Qwilfish. Probably it's all four combined. You can't recklessly click Choice Band Head Smash anymore given how often you see Quag, Mudsdale, and even Gastrodon once in a while. As an offensive rocker, it's largely outclassed by Mudsdale and Lycanroc. And of course Aggron still gets pressured by your everyday Scarf Primeape, Hitmonchan, Gurdurr, and Poliwrath. It's no longer the same top tier threat that it once was a while ago.
 

INSANE CARZY GUY

Banned deucer.
You really want filler on mr. Mime it let's it eat a specs sludge wave from guzzlord but I guess You only need the bulk for vested at worst

Right now I'm a huge fan of Flozelt, that thing really stomps up and down on good win cons right now. If You're real enough to run swift swim, You basically can't lose to hyper offense rain teams unless they get 2 shell smashes off without rain up or convenience You to stay in on a prankster T-wave when You aren't choice band locked into aqua jet

It flat out 2 hit kills about everything in the tier between low kick, liquidation and aqua jet

+1 252 Atk Floatzel Liquidation vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Dodrio: 240-283 (91.9 - 108.4%) -- 50% chance to OHKO

Then dodrio can't ko back unless they are banded or go brave bird on a roll but then dies from recoil and jet is still a 2 kill roll

Guzzlord dies to low kick

Only gastrodon and qua are real counters as far as being able to switch in without being immune and still bulk up life orb/fightingum are both real options

It's also nicely unneeded for the rain teams it can stomp over because it has pointless speed and they rather have the extra stab for quilfish/kubutops and avoid doubling up

Gastrodon is also a mon I think should bump up to B+ tier that thing can tank hard as a pivot and can really put a stop to u turn/knock and normal spam that is zangoose boosted or adamant shoutland.

With rocky helmet and sticky hold it really really hurts many mons that try to gain momentum, just gotta pair with ghost bird to shut down lilligant and ludicolo if You have to make that call
 
Agree with the Mr. Mime rise. Its a very competent wall/stall breaker that teams have to prep for, especially if you use NP + Z-move, as well as being a mon that can handle Guzzlord well, both offensively and defensively thanks to its beneficial typing. Having soundproof is an added bonus, although I actually like the Technician HP fighting set to catch switch ins like Aggron off guard [even though Focus blast, whilst unreliable is a more viable option and allows you to keep Soundproof as the ability]
 
first ever noms
171115

What's Persian doing in A+, drop this. Persian's overall passivity n reliance to use Z-Parting Shot to be good (you will mostly run Z on Lilligant or Smth like that rlly) can't be great for every team lol. Guzzlord is more bulky thanks to its Mammoth HP, especially Physically (tho u won't run defensive Guzz lol). Other darkie-Darkies like Skuntank, Sableye and even Liepard have More utility than this thing, with Reliance in the aformentioned Z-Parting Shot only to separate himself from them. Skunk has defog and only 1 weak, Sableye and Liepard have Prankster, with the former being able to WoWisp and the latter having access to the legendary U-Turn, TWAVE, and ability to support rain teams with rain dance and these moves. I'd drop this to either A Mid, A Minus or even B Plus. doesnt have enough niches to separate it's competition.
171124

This thing is too high as well. Victreebel's Chlorophyll ability allows It to sweep teams, but when you have literally 0 defensive utility for the team and slow af outside of Sun, doesn't make this thing all that great. Being forced to rely on sun (either by himself or by support Liepard or something) and being very slow even by that makes this mon a definite candidate to drop.
171126

This mon deserves to jump to S- cause it's worthy of it. Stallbreaker sets are probably the best non-Altaria stall team breaker, and CM acomplishes the same thing but forgoes Taunt to break through teams lacking Regirock or Lycanroc. Even though I consider Eelektross being better, or Lanturn, they can't sweep teams unlike Oricorio-PomPom. Togedemaru being gone a while ago also blessed this mon with access to the newfound Z-HURRICANE. It one-shots most of the tier that doesn't resist it, especially at +1. Ain't walled by Rockies completely either; Revelation Dance after a Calm Mind, or two, can one-shot Rockies like Lycanroc n Aggron. Definitely S- Rank IMO

That's All, folks. Love this VR overall!
 

Katy

Banned deucer.
171124

This thing is too high as well. Victreebel's Chlorophyll ability allows It to sweep teams, but when you have literally 0 defensive utility for the team and slow af outside of Sun, doesn't make this thing all that great. Being forced to rely on sun (either by himself or by support Liepard or something) and being very slow even by that makes this mon a definite candidate to drop.

Hello,

I think Victreebels placement at A- is deserved, it hits an amazing speed tier in the sun, which outpaces even a plenthy of scarfers, it has almost no resistet movepool options too. Its dangerous when u give it a chance to sweep when Sun is up. Solar beam, Sludge Bomb and Weather Ball (bypassing Alo-Sandslash) and Sleep Powder gives it a dangerous capability to ensure what the Sun teams are supposed to do. Sure Sun teams are slow from ht beginning, but most Sunsetters have Prankster, so setting up sun comes at no really cost for your team. Victreebel is the definition of a Sun-team as well, since it is very dangerous with the good SpAtt stat. Sure the PU tier offers Priority-Attacks to deal with it, but Mach Punch as example is resistet and Sucker Punch from Skuntank isn't able to OHKO it anyway.
I used Sun myself a lot recently and I can say if you are unpreppared you has the chance to loose to this Poison Plant.
It should stay at A- where it is and belongs.
 

TTK

Narmaya. That's it.
is a Community Contributor
IcyPablo 2007 the new gam said:
This thing is too high as well. Victreebel's Chlorophyll ability allows It to sweep teams, but when you have literally 0 defensive utility for the team and slow af outside of Sun, doesn't make this thing all that great. Being forced to rely on sun (either by himself or by support Liepard or something) and being very slow even by that makes this mon a definite candidate to drop.
I think you are completely missing what Victreebel does in this tier. Yes, it has a sun sweeping set. However, that is not the only set used on it. You wanted Victreebel to drop because it "relies on sun" but to be honest, that is quite false. Victreebel is still a good mon outside of sun for several reasons you failed to address. Number 1, Victreebel is probably one of the best Fighting checks in the tier, alongside Strength Sap (broken move tbh), it can straight up counter mons like Gurdurr. Furthermore, Victreebel can afford to utilise bulkier spreads and still dish out damage thanks to its decent Spatk stat. I'd advise you to actually use the mon you want to drop in question before you nom it down for the wrong reasons.

I think some people don't actually know what Victreebel does outside of sun, which is quite niche in this tier as you all know. Explore this mon pls.
 

INSANE CARZY GUY

Banned deucer.
I looked at D and was like hell no


I'd like to boldly nom Toucannon to C- for it's incredible scarf set

171190


I've been trying a lot of different things piss drunk but this team always ends up doing me right even after I'm on some shit thinking unaware scarf bibarrel(don't rank) double edge is a lilligant check(after 1 spikes it's a cool roll they don't expect)

Low game, but Toucannon can bypass any bullshit scarf on a timid/jolly base 110 speed mon and blow up frolass/lilirock andstill outspeed many things with an ugly base 120 attack stat beaver bird, bullet seed, rock blast, u-turn set and tank whatever priority Supereffctive moves used or non Supereffctive moves by other monsters like scarf ape.

I think it back door trashes non mespit/fat pivots leads super hard and can easily art as a backup clean up on teams. I won't like I really don't know how else it works outside of my current nonsense but I think this is an excellent example of all the weight it can pull without being out classed by dodrio(was told it was outclassed by so figured it'd be an amazing core)

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7pu-895374430
Super low ladder but all vaible mons minus the ghost and vested chan
 
I'm a perennial low ladder player (sitting just under 1400 at the moment) so my opinion probably doesn't count for much, but even just basic observation for me has lead me to question why Guzzlord is back. It's bulky as all hell and nothing can switch into it aside from fairies which I don't see much of down here in my experience aside from the occasional Mr Mime. Even a -1 Draco Meteor has OHKO'ed opposing Pokémon that weren't exactly defensive slouches. I don't think it will last long to be honest. Was it a usage thing or was it just too bad for NU?
 
I'm a perennial low ladder player (sitting just under 1400 at the moment) so my opinion probably doesn't count for much, but even just basic observation for me has lead me to question why Guzzlord is back. It's bulky as all hell and nothing can switch into it aside from fairies which I don't see much of down here in my experience aside from the occasional Mr Mime. Even a -1 Draco Meteor has OHKO'ed opposing Pokémon that weren't exactly defensive slouches. I don't think it will last long to be honest. Was it a usage thing or was it just too bad for NU?
A Pokemon in NU must have a combined usage of over 3.41% over a period of three months to remain NU. Guzzlord fell short of that mark, so it dropped to PU.

Anyway, this would be more suited for the Simple Questions, Simple Answers thread. Post there next time you have a question like this.
 
Howdy all, this is my first post on the forums, but I'll try not to screw up too badly.

172522

Shiftry B- -> B
Shiftry takes advantage of many of the common defensive choices in the current meta, with the rising mudsdale usage and mons like Quag and Lanturn being popular as well, Shiftry can comfortably switch in and fire off a knock off or leaf storm, or remove some hazards. Very similar to Victreebel in a way, but trading the fighting resistance for a ground resistance. This gives Shiftry a natural synergy with offensive threats like Gurdurr and Aggron, and a good partner in pom-pom, giving Shiftry some level of splashability.



Kabutops A- -> B+/B
Very inconsistent outside of rain teams in my experience. The scarf set is awkwardly slow and reliant on moves you generally don't want to be locked into like stone edge and knock off. Inside of rain teams it's very good, but its rain partner in Ludicolo (who's arguably more splashable outside rain) is resting in B+, so I think it's only natural Kabu joins him.
 
Shiftry B- to C+ Strongly Disagree


I understand where you are coming from. Guzzlord dropping looks like it would affect this Pokemon’s viability, but I don’t think that’s the case. Shiftry having access to Low Kick makes this otherwise mediocre defogger turn into a destructive mixed attacker if you opt to run 4 attacks. Adamant Shiftry’s Low Kick 2HKO’s Guzzlord and OHKO’s Alolan-Sandslash making it really easy for this Pokemon alone to destroy common defensive cores. Just don't stay in versus Mesprit going for U-turn and this Pokemon will put in a lot of work. I just don’t think Shiftry should drop as it dishes out a lot of damage while making your opponent have to play perfectly in order to not lose a Pokemon. I don't agree with it rising to B rank, however.

Spiritomb to B- Strongly Agree (I’d personally rate it even lower)


There is no reason to use this pokemon right now. It loses to everything it wants to beat while doing literally nothing to Guzzlord switching in. Froslass and Jellicent just burn it, Mesprit takes nothing from Pursuit, and its rest talk set is not even good on balance teams anymore because of PU’s excess amount of wallbreakers. I tried to think of a way to use Spiritomb effectively; there’s just nothing it does that other pokemon can’t do better and that’s really unfortunate.

Some of my noms:

Silvally-Fairy B to B+


It has never been better for Silvally-Fairy. Guzzlord made this otherwise shaky Gurdurr answer and defogger into something worth considering on your team. It’s worth noting that this Pokemon doesn’t always have to be a defogger and has a lot of other options it can run in that slot like Thunder Wave or Flamethrower. It also has sets that distinguish it from other Fairies like Swords Dance, Rest Talk with Parting Shot + Multi Attack, and my personal favorite, SD + Rest Talk. It deserves a raise and should be explored more as I believe it to be incredibly underrated right now thanks to PU having very little for fairy types.

Natu C- to D or Unranked


Don’t use Natu. It is at its absolute worst and having the niche of Magic Bounce is not enough to warrant its current placement. Guzzlord exploits the ever living hell out of this poor bird and it loses to our most common spikes setter in Froslass. I just see no reason to use it ever on any serious team with Pursuit and Knock Off being ever so common.

Exeggutor D to Unranked


The addition of Guzzlord really hampered this Pokemon’s niche of being a strong wallbreaker. I loved using it on the ladder as a fun meme pokemon but now I don’t even consider using it at all. Guzzlord is too scary and although HP Fighting has a chance to 2HKO it, it makes prediction scary because one wrong move can cost you a Pokemon. I’m sorry buddy but I don’t think you deserve to be ranked with how things are looking in our current metagame.
 
I've been wanting do to this nom for a while

Kecleon: from B- to B/B+

Kecleon is a amazing check to nearly every special attacker in the tier due to his amazing SpD (120) and decent attack stat (90), he can take a hit from pretty much any special attacker in the tier and recover good part of the damage via drain punch, that's not the only perk Kecleon has, he has a amazing ability in protean which allows him to do some insane stuff like spin blocking and give STAB to every single one of his attacks + Kecleon decent movepool makes him somewhat unpredictable.

. +1 252 SpA Chlorophyll Lilligant Breakneck Blitz (200 BP) vs. 172 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Kecleon: 165-195 (54.2 - 64.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (he can even deny it if he was brought by a slow switch thanks to Shadow sneak)

252+ Atk Protean Kecleon Drain Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Lilligant: 133-157 (47.3 - 55.8%) -- 78.5% chance to 2HKO

252+ SpA Choice Specs Snow Warning Aurorus Blizzard vs. 172 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Kecleon: 141-166 (46.3 - 54.6%) -- 59.8% chance to 2HKO (idt I need to mention that drain punch OHKOs Aurorus)

252+ SpA Beast Boost Guzzlord Devastating Drake (195 BP) vs. 172 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Kecleon: 163-193 (53.6 - 63.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ Atk Protean Kecleon Drain Punch vs. 0 HP / 196 Def Guzzlord: 258-306 (43.9 - 52.1%) -- 10.9% chance to 2HKO

+2 252+ SpA Weak Armor Omastar Tectonic Rage (175 BP) vs. 172 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Kecleon: 219-258 (72 - 84.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252+ Atk Protean Kecleon Drain Punch vs. -2 0 HP / 4 Def Omastar: 344-408 (122.4 - 145.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ SpA Choice Specs Sap Sipper Drampa Draco Meteor vs. 172 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Kecleon: 205-243 (67.4 - 79.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252+ Atk Protean Kecleon Drain Punch vs. 136 HP / 0 Def Drampa: 240-284 (72.5 - 85.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
 
Last edited:

ManOfMany

I can make anything real
is a Tiering Contributor
I've been wanting do to this nom for a while

Kecleon: from B- to B/B+

Kecleon is a amazing check to nearly every special attacker in the tier due to his amazing SpD (120) and decent attack stat (90), he can take a hit from pretty much any special attacker in the tier and recover good part of the damage via drain punch, that's not the only perk Kecleon has, he has a amazing ability in protean which allows him to do some insane stuff like spin blocking and give STAB to every single one of his attacks + Kecleon decent movepool makes him somewhat unpredictable.

. +1 252 SpA Chlorophyll Lilligant Breakneck Blitz (200 BP) vs. 172 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Kecleon: 165-195 (54.2 - 64.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (he can even deny it if he was brought by a slow switch thanks to Shadow sneak)

252+ Atk Protean Kecleon Drain Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Lilligant: 133-157 (47.3 - 55.8%) -- 78.5% chance to 2HKO

252+ SpA Choice Specs Snow Warning Aurorus Blizzard vs. 172 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Kecleon: 141-166 (46.3 - 54.6%) -- 59.8% chance to 2HKO (idt I need to mention that drain punch OHKOs Aurorus)

252+ SpA Beast Boost Guzzlord Devastating Drake (195 BP) vs. 172 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Kecleon: 163-193 (53.6 - 63.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ Atk Protean Kecleon Drain Punch vs. 0 HP / 196 Def Guzzlord: 258-306 (43.9 - 52.1%) -- 10.9% chance to 2HKO

+2 252+ SpA Weak Armor Omastar Tectonic Rage (175 BP) vs. 172 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Kecleon: 219-258 (72 - 84.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252+ Atk Protean Kecleon Drain Punch vs. -2 0 HP / 4 Def Omastar: 344-408 (122.4 - 145.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ SpA Choice Specs Sap Sipper Drampa Draco Meteor vs. 172 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Kecleon: 205-243 (67.4 - 79.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252+ Atk Protean Kecleon Drain Punch vs. 136 HP / 0 Def Drampa: 240-284 (72.5 - 85.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Hi. We already know what most of this information from reading Kecleon's analysis or playing with the pokemon. In fact it's for Kecleon's ability to check special attackers with an Assault Vest that it is ranked B- in the first place; it hasn't gone any higher mainly because of its poor physical stats and competition from other special tanks like Eelektross and Hitmonchan. Your post doesn't really say much about Kecleon's placement in the current metagame, which is what a VR nomination is supposed to do.

For making a VR nom to be effective, I recommend to do at least one of two things:
1) explain how the meta has changed in a way that makes the given pokemon either better or worse
2) explain why the current ranking of the pokemon was a misconception. For this, it might help to compare it to other pokemon in nearby ranks.
 

Chloe

is a Community Contributoris a Top Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Dedicated Tournament Hostis a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Community Leader Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnus
NUPL Champion
my noms:
b+ to a-
this pokemon is insanely good atm. walls most physical attackers in the tier, excellent defensive typing and comprehensive support movepool. i find this pokemon quite difficult to build without at times because it's just so good, especially in a stage in the meta where mudsdale and regirock have increased in usage, and physical attackers like stout, kanga, lycan, costa, gurdurr, primeape are all seeing so much usage. tangela's defensive prowess is consistently underrated. it should be a crime to keep tangela in b+. i would nom higher than a- but i don't wanna push my luck. :blobthumbsup:
b to b+
i hope people try this out instead of mindlessly adding sr alolan slash to every team and not considering this as an option. metang has a lot of solid niches that allow it to stand out. its defensive stats and typing are quite nice and allow it to switch in to physical threats easier (stout kanga lycan aggron). it checks aurorus arguably better than alolan slash does. ice stab and no dark weakness vs much better defenses and no fighting weakness. i'm having trouble articulating what exactly makes this mon good enough for b+ but i just really want to stress that more people should try it out.​
i agree with:
a+ to lower
definitely not a+ worthy, i've never found it to be a+ good at all. it definitely has a lot of redeeming features in fur coat, parting shot, np + parting shot and all that other good stuff but seriously it cannot pull its weight in the current meta. it under-performs consistently, has to watch out for primeape and lurantis which have risen in usage substantially since persian rose to a+. fairy types like silvally and clefairy and fighting types like gurdurr are seeing usage much more due to guzzlord's introduction. persians underwhelming special attack stat means it has to boost multiple times to put in work. a+ definitely feels like a stretch, too high.​

(fairy) b to b+
guzzlord + fighting-type guzzlord checks. the current meta just favours this so much. i've always believed that this mon is a tad underused for what it does. the lack of fairy resists in this tier is insane, it's one of the better defoggers in the tier right now, top 3 removal option, parting shot utility works for it better than other mons due to factors like primeape's inability to safely switch in. silvally fairy just has everything going for it atm​
b+ to a-
this thing scarfed is really nice. solid defensive typing paired with great stabs in blizzard and giga drain. focus blast access allows it to bop the main mon that resists both of these (alolan hedgehog). i want a lot more people to use this and ludicolo, they're both offensive grass types that i find much more effective in a tier that overpreps for lilligant but doesn't take into account specially offensive grasses with dual stabs.​
b- to c+
haven't seen anything impressive from this mon in a while. the current meta doesn't favour it. pre-guzzlord this was struggling too and things haven't exactly gotten better for it. leafeon is honestly a much more palatable physical grass type. not as confident about this one as the rest of the things here but i do support this nom at this point in time.​

i also agree with
a to a+ and
a- to b+/b (even with guzzlord in the tier, this mon still sucks); but i elaborated on both of these in my last post.
 

INSANE CARZY GUY

Banned deucer.
Metang is cool, but is just the biggest Jack of trades I've ever seen, I am even a fan of BP+pursuiting for 100% critical chip. Explosion vs set up switch in+rocks+coverage vs spinners it can beat. It's a mid game throw away pokemon. i support a rise


That thing is the best abuser of priority in my opinion and gets so many switch ins with a ground teammate

I support


Dodrio should be A+

That thing is completely nasty, can't pivot in outside of reads but other than mudsdale, bold gastrodon and the completely fattest mons it's so hard to switch in and it's 3 sets all just wreak house where I think only banded soutland is spooky
 

Users Who Are Viewing This Thread (Users: 1, Guests: 1)

Top