Unpopular opinions

[Volt-Ikazuchi]

That's quite the hypocritical take given you've provided minimal arguments beyond deflection and mockery.

I've provided more than enough arguments. I claimed GSC Abra to be the best in-game mon from an IGTL perspective, you disagreed on a speedrun perspective and we've been on this nonsensical discussion ever since.

This argument should've ended about 20 posts ago when it was obvious that we aren't using the same parameters. Yet, despite knowing that, you'd rather insist on it.

I understand that you don't agree with IGTLs as a concept. That is perfectly fair, but that's also a whole other discussion that doesn't even involve Abra tbh.

 

[DrPumpkinz]

I've provided more than enough arguments. I claimed GSC Abra to be the best in-game mon from an IGTL perspective, you disagreed on a speedrun perspective and we've been on this nonsensical discussion ever since.

You said it's the most broken in-game Pokemon ever and that it didn't need much if any training, then backtracked and said yeah it does actually need training, then backtracked further and said that no, Totodile is stronger, and spent the rest of your posts calling LG a fool.

That is barely even a single argument.

 

[Volt-Ikazuchi]

You said it's the most broken in-game Pokemon ever and that it didn't need much if any training, then backtracked and said yeah it does actually need training, then backtracked further and said that no, Totodile is stronger, and spent the rest of your posts calling LG a fool.

That is barely even a single argument.

There was zero backtracking. Let me try to make myself even clearer. Important points will be bolded.

All I want for christmas is a WTF button.

Bro, GSC Abra is literally the most busted in-game mon EVER.

It being slightly underleveled is irrelevant when it's immediately throwing punches like prime Mike Tyson off 105 SpA with breakneck speed compared to everything at that point in the game. Johto's level curve means it's not severely underleveled either and there are plenty of trainers for it to catch up.
Did you know Psychic runs through Johto and Kanto like a hot knife through butter?

That was a straight up crazy take.

After that, LG posted calcs involving an Lv. 10 Abra. I clarified that obviously taking on a tough boss 8 levels below is just stupid. I did not backtrack since, as you can see, that was addressed in my first post.

Then as the argument went on, LG made it clear that they were thinking on a Speedrun perspective. For obvious reasons, especially in the OI subforum, when we think in-game, we don't think about speedruns, we think about IGTL.

On speedruns, Toto is stronger, but again, I wasn't talking about those.

Like I said, no backtracking.

 

[DrPumpkinz]

I don't know what criteria the IGTLs use to determine who the best is, but if the criteria doesn't boil down to "the Pokemon that's easiest to unga your way through the game with is the best" then the whole project and discussion surrounding it sounds like a largely worthless endeavor. If Abra takes more effort to use than Totodile, which from what I can gather is one of the most bunga starters in the series, then it's not the best, simple as that.

I don't know much about GS or who's actually stronger, but LG is providing actual justifications for their arguments. You're just saying "well that's not what I was talking about" and leaving it at that. It's not very convincing.

 

[Volt-Ikazuchi]

You're just saying "well that's not what I was talking about" and leaving it at that. It's not very convincing.

Because there can't be a conclusion when there is no standard in an evaluation. It's like if we were playing chess but I'm using monopoly pieces and you're using checkers pieces. It doesn't make a lick of sense.

I don't know what criteria the IGTLs use to determine who the best is

I don't know much about GS or who's actually stronger

Then stay in your lane instead of making things even messier for no reason.
I've seen more coherent discussions today looking for SV leaks in goddamn 4chan. That's beyond absurd.

Don't bother replying, matter of fact, go binge-watch One Piece from the beginning.

 

[Magcargo]

Don't know what exactly is going on here, but this in-fighting is great entertainment!

Uh, as for unpopular opinions, Hydro Pump and Fire Blast are bad moves, particularly if they are used as a Pokemon's main STAB. Due to their accuracy, they actually aren't much stronger than their weaker counterparts on average (Fire Blast has 93.5 BP on average, while Hydro pump has 88 BP on average) and their lower PP makes them worse in longer matches and in-game runs since they can't be spammed as frequently, further compounded by their lower accuracy forcing you to use the move more if they miss.

Similarly, I don't like other powerful moves with drawbacks like Flare Blitz, Close Combat,, etc. Flare Blitz's recoil is really annoying to deal with, espcially when compounded by additional chip damage like Sand, Rocky Helmet, Stealth Rock, etc. Close Combat is a bit better, but the lowered defenses can be really annoying when used by a faster Pokemon since it makes it less capable of taking neutral hits and puts it in KO ranges easier. Flare Blitz's recoil and Close Combat's low PP also makes them annoying to use in in-game since it will force you to use additional resources. Overall, I suppose these moves are more balanced by having drawbacks to make up for their higher power, but I usually opt for weaker choices in in-game runs since they don't require me to jump through additional hoops like using more Full Restores and what-not.

 

[Cobalt Empoleon]

*desperately racking my brain for a fresh Unpopular Opinion to rescue this thread*

I actually like it when my favourite Pokemon are kinda weak and shafted by the devs in new gens. there's something much more satisfying to me about making a mon work with limited options rather than having it get access to a new gimmick or the latest generically powerful move/ability/etc

 

[DrPumpkinz]

Because there can't be a conclusion when there is no standard in an evaluation. It's like if we were playing chess but I'm using monopoly pieces and you're using checkers pieces. It doesn't make a lick of sense.

Then stay in your lane instead of making things even messier for no reason.
I've seen more coherent discussions today looking for SV leaks in goddamn 4chan. That's beyond absurd.

Don't bother replying, matter of fact, go binge-watch One Piece from the beginning.

If the standard by which something is evaluated is bad, then those evaluations will also be bad. Garbage in, garbage out. LG provided some reasons for why the IGTL's evaluation method is garbage that I found convincing. Either give an convincing rebuttal beyond "it's different and everyone assumed you were talking about IGTL (I didn't assume that)", or at the very least stop being a dismissive jerk.

 

[LonelyGaruga]

I've provided more than enough arguments. I claimed GSC Abra to be the best in-game mon from an IGTL perspective, you disagreed on a speedrun perspective and we've been on this nonsensical discussion ever since.

You made a claim and provided very literally zero backing for it. Psychic isn't even the dominant type in the IGTL despite your claim that Psychic is the one that cuts through GSC, Normal and Water track better.

You put out trash trainers on route 34 as proof that Abra can "immediately contribute". Contributing to an efficient run is not wasting time on optional fodder that barely provide any EXP. An immediate contribution to efficiency is taking out that required trainer to reach Whitney, something Abra has a 0% chance of pulling off, and Croconaw can do effortlessly with no additional grinding involved.

Also uh, Diglett outspeeds Abra at an equal level unless Abra has an above average Speed IV, and the level 14 one has a range to 2HKO Abra with Scratch (guaranteed if the first one outpaces Abra) while being a range for Ice Punch to KO. That fodder with the two Digletts isn't even a reliable matchup for Abra.

After that, LG posted calcs involving an Lv. 10 Abra.

--

Then as the argument went on, LG made it clear that they were thinking on a Speedrun perspective.

I also posted calcs of a level 21 Kadabra and Alakazam that showed an inconsistent ability to 1v1 Miltank (Kadabra straight up can't do it at all unless Miltank uses Rollout). You ignored those in favor of mocking me for the level 10 calc that demonstrates Abra has no immediate capacity to contribute to efficiency. Pretty much equivalent to if I highlighted Abra's gen VII performance instead of GSC, it really doesn't look good for your "argument" if you continually ignore the actually meaningful calcs in favor of mocking the obviously unfavorable one. Exclusively picking on the weakest link of an argument without addressing any of the more relevant points just makes it look like you either don't have an actual counterargument to those points or are more interested in trying to mock the person you're replying to than having an actual argument. The latter is my pick, personally, and frankly that's a trend I've picked up on when criticizing the IGTL's methodology. People defending it tend to be more interested in being smug jerks than having meaningful discourse.

As for speedrunning perspective, I've repeatedly clarified that it's a lot more nuanced than that despite your insistence otherwise. I'm routing out RNG as best I can and restricting items so no X boosters or healing nonsense, none of that is conducive to speedrunning the game. I'll reiterate, for Blue I ran a team of Squirtle/Spearow/Dugtrio/Zapdos (run's uploaded if you want to check it, made a topic for it but no one replied). That far more closely resembles a high tier IGTL team than a speedrun team. While routing the other starters for GSC, Geodude was far and away more efficient than grinding Chikorita or Cyndaquil to beat Falkner. I think most people contributing to the IGTL would agree with that sentiment too, regardless of opinions on Geodude's performance afterwards, and also that Geodude has zero business being used for a speedrun. I don't know what kind of partners I'll end up with for Totodile on the GSC run, but Abra is not an efficient pick, and I very much doubt that the final result will resemble a speedrun more than a fairly optimized challenge run. You can keep mitigating criticism of Abra by insisting I'm pulling a speedrun route where Totodile solo is the only viable strategy, but I am very obviously not, and it goes closer to a modified IGTL ruleset. Seeking efficiency as defined as a combination of speed, consistency, and self-sufficiency. Everything about that can be defined in concrete terms, unlike whatever the mess the IGTL topics has going on.

 

[CPU]

Oooh I love unpopular opinions!!!

• Gen 6 is my favorite gen. Not only is it my first and nostalgic,
• 3d pokemon > pixellated pokemon

Yeah this checks out

 

[ChrystalFalchion]

I'm really looking forward to Terastalisation. I think it'll make the metagame much more diverse and give life to Pokemon that historically always struggled with lousy typing. I predict that at first people will spam same type terastal for the power, people will bitch about it being broken, then people will find ways to counter it and use it defensively too. Wolfe Glick did a great video about how it will help Ice types.

I also think it will be much less broken in game than Megas and Z moves. Although let's be honest, the Pokemon series have never been difficult games. Mainly because they're intended for children under 10.

 

[Volt-Ikazuchi]

*Snip*

I'm not sure we can talk about anything SV-related outside of the SV threads.

As for an Unpopular Opinion to wash away the stupidity from the last 2 pages (including mine, of course...)

I don't think Normal was a bad type before Gen 8. They usually have plenty of coverage to deal with Steel-types, I'd argue that Gen 5 introducing a ton of good Fighting-types is what made them tough to use.

After Gen 8 removed Return, made Close Combat a TR, and the ever increasing power creep rendered a lot of formerly good Normal mons useless, then I'd have to argue that it's pretty unviable.

Hell, people are seriously considering the possibility of Ursaluna being an actual OU-tier threat if it's available outside of PLA.

Speaking of which...

Wow GF, really? No update for PLA transfers to BDSP?

 

[Coronis]

I'm really looking forward to Terastalisation. I think it'll make the metagame much more diverse and give life to Pokemon that historically always struggled with lousy typing. I predict that at first people will spam same type terastal for the power, people will bitch about it being broken, then people will find ways to counter it and use it defensively too. Wolfe Glick did a great video about how it will help Ice types.

I also think it will be much less broken in game than Megas and Z moves. Although let's be honest, the Pokemon series have never been difficult games. Mainly because they're intended for children under 10.

Plz still no Gen 9 spoilers!!

 

[Rarycaris]

My unpopular opinion is that the Distortion World was a neat spectacle in itself but took away from Giratina's overall lore. The original idea of Giratina as lord of a cave where the life and afterlife blended really gave the whole area a "you're not supposed to be here" vibe. The Distortion World itself has that vibe, but it also takes a lot away from the area around it; it makes Turnback Cave feel just sort of weird, rather than like you're trespassing on ground mortals shouldn't step on.

What I'm trying to say is I enjoy the idea of Giratina as a cross of Lucifer and Hades a lot more than it being the god of antimatter, and I liked its characterisation in PLA for similar reasons: it made Giratina feel scary for reasons other than it being powerful and unfamiliar.

 

[KalosianPorygon]

Wow GF, really? No update for PLA transfers to BDSP?

In my opinion, BDSP would have benefited greatly from the PLA Pokémon, especially if you can catch them in-game. Even as a post-game thing, it would be neat to see, I mean it's not like BDSP is a 101% copy of DP anyway (E.g., the Underground).

 

[Muhammad al-Khaliq]

dynamax is fucking awesome, fuck everyone who hates it

 

[PokemonCrusader]

Generation 9's designs are the bottom of the barrel.

 

[KalosianPorygon]

dynamax is fucking awesome, fuck everyone who hates it

We might have a winner!

Anyway,
The Treecko like is my least favorite Grass starter, and yes, I played Explorers of Sky.
Sorry.

 

[Siggu]

Anyway,
The Treecko like is my least favorite Grass starter, and yes, I played Explorers of Sky.
Sorry.

I'll swap the argument and say that it surprises me that most fans who like the Treecko line only liked it after Explorers of Sky.

I mean, it was my favourite starter until Snivy came along, and that favouritism came along way before Gen 4 was released...

 

[Nitro Indigo]

Gen 3 is the only generation where I can't choose a favourite starter, so there's that.

 

[DrumstickGaming]

I know it might be weird to say this when Pokemon is the biggest media franchise ever, and it's probably a cold take but screw it, I want to say it anyway:

Pokemon is a good franchise that is just in such an impossible position. It can't slow down with the games because it needs one released every year, and, because it's a famous cash cow franchise, people will nitpick regardless of what they do or how much long they take anyway. It's just what happens when a series gets such huge appeal - and no, nitpicking isn't inherently bad if it's out of wanting to see something better.

It's also hard as heck to get new media properties greenlit or heck, even feel confident in what you create even WHEN you have all the time in the world - just look at how much franchise integration and shared universes are pushed nowadays. Do something different and people will go: "I just want Pokemon" but stay the same and others will be "man the games are so stale now." - heck I can feel that way myself sometimes, the duality of man and whatnot. I've been writing a book for almost three years now, and only after double digit rewrites and endless worry I am at a point when I am satisfied with it. There is nothing worse as a creative than having a time limit looming over your head, and I pity the guys at Game Freak being swallowed by their own success.

Another thing: hard as it is to imagine as an adult: the game's main demographic is children - that's not to say games for kids can't have multiple demographic appeal, look at mainline Mario games - but with all the deadlines and pressure from other portions of the franchise, it is inevitable they wouldn't have the time to make the ultra-super-engaging-OU-maingame I, an adult, would actually not want a main series game to be - give me an easy but enjoyable over a hard game purely for the sake of being hard any day (hi Crash Bandicoot 4: It's About Time, which I drained my soul by 106%ing).

Yeah this post is kinda scattered but I also don't want to go into some huge tirade - there's plenty of videos that have probably said it beforehand. I'm not saying the newer games are exempt from criticism, but rather it's inevitable the quality will erode when executive meddling forces its hand. The developers are just doing the best with what they are given.

 

[Pikachu315111]

It can't slow down with the games because it needs one released every year, and, because it's a famous cash cow franchise, people will nitpick regardless of what they do or how much long they take anyway.

Let's pretend that they can't slow down (which they can, they said so themselves they decide the game's timeframe, but let's pretend), and that they care about a minority of nitpicky fans about how long the games take (they don't), still I feel GF has ignored or even got in a way of potential workarounds that'll let them have a game longer in development. Simply put, hire 3rd party companies to make side games to fill the void if they MUST make a game every year. GF aren't ever going to let a 3rd party make a main series game, but they've let plenty make side games. Why not set an initiative where they, say, let two other companies develop a side game that will be the "main attraction" for two years in a row giving GF about 3 more years of development time.

It's also hard as heck to get new media properties greenlit or heck, even feel confident in what you create even WHEN you have all the time in the world - just look at how much franchise integration and shared universes are pushed nowadays.

I'm guessing this thought is toward the GEAR Projects and the failure of Little Town Hero? Yeah, that's a steep hill to climb and I do feel bad for GF that, though they also don't help themselves when they refused to change their development cycle.

Little Town Hero feels like a side project game stretched to be at least a double A game, given triple A marketing, but given no extra time to have its mechanics more thoroughly built upon, graphics to be more polished (& coming up with a system to make the non-major NPCs be different models), and story fleshed out (at the very least so that that you reach the story ending and not a "to be continued"). If GF REALLY felt like LTH had a strong franchise opportunity, what they should have done was develop it over time for a few years with little to nor corners cut. But, whether because they refuse to change their development cycle methods or were desperate to have a new franchise to focus on (or maybe a combination of both), they rushed LTH making it have the same shortcomings are modern Pokemon games and, well, if I want that I'd play a Pokemon game. They themselves ruined LTH's chance, and that's something I can't feel sorry for them about.

Yeah this post is kinda scattered but I also don't want to go into some huge tirade

As you said, these thoughts are complicated and are as much about the developer as it's about the franchise. Especially a franchise that has a complicated ownership on top of everything else.

 

[KalosianPorygon]

I have a more general opinion that longer development time has been put on a pedestal as something that magically makes every video game better. (It's not.)

But back to Pokémon, why do people never ever talk about trees in other video games? We get it, SwSh's Wild Area has trees that would be at home on a Nintendo 64 game, but why does nobody talk about the trees and grass of other games?

 

[Nitro Indigo]

Because the Sword and Shield graphics controversy quickly turned into pointing-and-laughing.

 

[Worldie]

But back to Pokémon, why do people never ever talk about trees in other video games? We get it, SwSh's Wild Area has trees that would be at home on a Nintendo 64 game, but why does nobody talk about the trees and grass of other games?

Realistically speaking, because the fanbase (and thus, haterbase) of Pokemon games is much, MUCH bigger than any other franchise.

Do not underestimate how absolutely huge Pokemon is as franchise compared to literally anything else.