U-turn Discussion and Poll

[ShootingStarmie]

I think U-turn needs to go under the same category as stealth rock, it's really powerful and it reshapes the metagame but we live with it anyways. I know there are tons of people that want stealth rock banned, u-turn banned, and politoed (drizzle) banned. There will always be something at the top of OU, if you ban it then there will be something else at the top of OU, you can keep banning but the problem with never be solved until magikarp is ubers.

There's a difference between high usage and being broken. I don't think anyone has considered Scizor to be broken, but it usually sits at #1 in usage stats. Landorus-I wasn't receiving the best usage, but it was voted into the Uber tier because people believed it was broken.

Usage =/= brokenness

 

[superstar]

There are many reasons why U-turn is undesirable, and Shrug has listed the major ones:

1. Circumvents the risks involved with switching - you will always get the upperhand or at least not take major losses from switching out
2. It punishes opponents from switching, even though that's the most desirable option otherwise
3. It exacerbates entry hazard damage by forcing many switches (Deo Spike-stacking VoltTurn Offense is as brainless as it gets)
4. Forces many 50/50 scenarios that broke multiple Pokemon
5. It is widely distributed, allowing a team to heavily abuse VoltTurn with high success

Reasons 4 & 5 are the main reasons why we're pushing for a test on U-turn rather than Volt Switch / Baton Pass

Basically U-turn takes skill out from the match by giving you many safe switch-in opportunities and favorable match-ups with very little to no cost. All the while it adds chip damage, unlike Baton Pass, and it cannot be blocked by immunity, unlike Volt Switch.

1: Yes, it does circumvent the risks with switching in some scenarios. But it doesn't help with them at all a lot of times. Lets take the simple example of Scarf Jirachi vs. Dragonite with MS broken. The opponent has a Heatran and a ~50% Scizor waiting in the wings. There are two options for the Jirachi user. Either switch out using U-turn, or Ice Punch. It's a 50-50 gamble, and if you guess wrong Dragonite will set up and do major damage, or against Ice Punch Heatran and Scizor will come in for free. Baton Pass is the same as U-turn here.

Lets compare that to Scarf Keldeo (for arguments sake we'll assume rain isn't up). With Keldeo, you can either Surf or Icy Wind. Once again, if you guess wrong, you are in a bad spot. I fail to see what makes U-turn so great here. Obviously U-turn shows it's real power when it can be used with literally no downside against Lati@s, Alakazam, or Celebi, but if you think it is broken then don't use physically frail bug-weak Pokemon.

2: It does punish opponents for switching. So does spamming Specs Hydro Pump or Band Close Combat or using Hydregion. So do entry hazards. Half of a game of Pokemon is about trying to punish opponents for switching.

3: It does exacerbate entry hazard damage, but this is a 50-50. The U-turn user is taking entry hazard damage as well, possibly even more since all the abusers bar Rotom-W are Spikes weak and all bar Jirachi are SR neutral. If you have Spikes + SR on your side of the field and the opponent's side is clear, you're at a major disadvantage no matter what they are doing.

4: Okay, like I've said before, Genesect was not broken because of U-turn, most voters said that the RP set was what made it broken. Tornadus-T was broken because it had like 3 counters who all lacked recovery, plus wasn't punished for simply dry switching into a counter for their Jirachi or Rotom. Landorus is possibly the only Pokemon that was banned because of U-turn -- and as Panamaxis said, that's because Bug/Fight/Ground/Ice coverage is unwallable, not because of U-turns switching effect.

5: It is not widely distributed. The abusers in OU are Scizor, Jirachi, Tornadus-I, and Landorus-T. Thunderus-T and Rotom-W are the two Volt Switchers. Hydregion has much better uses of its moveslots than U-turn -- there's no point switching out of a counter when you literally have no counters. Gliscor has a weak U-turn and generally is strapped for moveslots anyway. Infernape sucks and should be UU; Victini and Darmanitan are much better (although these two do abuse U-turn very well, they are quite hazards weak and sun-reliant). Celebi prefers Baton Pass to U-turn. Xatu uses U-turn well to use the slow switch out of threats, but might as well be using Baton Pass for all the damage it's doing, and probably would be using Baton Pass > U-turn for Ttar if it had access to it.

Scizor is great because of U-turn, but Jirachi's U-turn is weak, and really only used on the certainly not broken Scarf version. Landorus-T handily uses U-turn to pivot. Tornadus-I hates using it because it is losing 25% of its health each time, and should really just be spamming Specs Hurricane when it gets a rare switch-in chance since very little walls it.

I agree with Panamaxis that this thread is silly. This is basically a "Scizor is broken thread" since I don't think anyone would argue that (U-turn) Jirachi or Landorus-T are even close to as powerful as Keldeo or Kyu-B or Loom or Terrakion or Latios or the other threats in BW2 that are more worthy of a discussion than this move.

U-turn was much better in Gen 4 when you actually needed to scout and such. It was much better in BW1 when those damn VoltTurn teams were everywhere. Nowadays, it's not too great

EDIT: Also, for those saying that the argument isn't about U-turn's abusers, you are wrong. Yeah, if Kyu-B, Terrakion, and Tyranitar got U-turn I might think about banning it, but they don't so we have to look at what actually can use it.

 

[Pocket]

superstarr, Genesect was not banned because of the RP set - go read the Genesect suspect thread again. Scarf U-turn was definitely a main factor here. Combined with Download boost, U-turn, and impeccable coverage, it was among the best Scarfers in its time. It was Scarf Genesect that allowed Duggy Sun team to be highly successful. RP set was dangerous, but it lacked the amazing momentum-grabbing utility of Scarf Genesect. It was also U-turn that made Genesect highly unpredictable. Without U-turn, Genesect would be the first one unbanned.

rolen120, this is a discussion on U-turn, don't bring up Stealth Rock (lol) and Drizzle into the discussion. Their suspect statuses have nothing to do with U-turn's uncompetitiveness.

 

[reyscarface]

if you think this thread is about scizor being broken you should really stop posting here because you literally dont have a clue

 

[superstar]

if you think this thread is about scizor being broken you should really stop posting here because you literally dont have a clue

U-turn is good on landorus because it forces switches easily and u-turn hits a couple of its select few counters
U-turn is good on genesect/scizor because of stab and because they both force switches easily.
There's a couple of others that u-turn is good on but that's just because the pokemon themselves are good rather than the move imo.

In general, u-turn is really not that great of a move.

I'd like to see a good example of an abuser currently OU other than Scizor because I'm not seeing one right now. I personally don't think "principle" is a good enough arguement

And Pocket, the Genesect thread appears to have been deleted or something, but iirc a lot of people were saying that the scarf set was borderline Uber, but that the RP set pushed it over the edge

 

[Terraquaza]

celebi and landorus-t? uturn is imo the best move (and you can't block it like voltswitch) in this gen with sr, and momentum is a big deal in bw from what i've experienced. it was like a win/win situation if you uturned with genesect (or scizor) and pocket already mentioned how good uturn worked with dugtrio.

 

[Subject 18]

I'd like to see a good example of an abuser currently OU other than Scizor because I'm not seeing one right now. I personally don't think "principle" is a good enough arguement

Jirachi
Celebi
Landorus-T
Thundurus-T (not really The biggest abuser but it's handy for catching Celebi's and others)
Infernape
Hydreigon

 

[Shrug]

I'd like to see a good example of an abuser currently OU other than Scizor because I'm not seeing one right now.

Take what Terraquaza said (Celebi, Landorus-T) add in stuff like Jirachi, Thunderus-T (it does run it on some scarf sets, which says a lot considering it has ridiculous Special Attack) that are good and still run it then take stuff like Infernape who are only viable because of it
edit: ninja'd look at that

a lot of people were saying that the scarf set was borderline Uber

Think of a Scarfer with mediocre speed with four unSTABed coverage moves and find a place for it on your team
Borderline Uber? No? That's Genesect sans U-Turn, so that says a lot

 

[superstar]

Yes, I realize other mons can use U-Turn, but I'm arguing that it is only really good on mons that are already good for other reasons (and Scizor/Genesect). See the quote I posted by Panamaxis. Please do not discuss Infernape or Hydregion, the first is barely viable and should really be UU, as pretty much everyone agrees. The latter struggles to switch in; it has much better things to do once it is in than switch out -- i.e. kill something because it literally has no counters. Thundy-T basically just uses it as a coverage move for Celebi and Lati@s, although I suppose it does have use in switching when you don't want to risk a ground-type coming in. Celebi prefers Baton Pass due to Pursuit trapping and possible Nasty passing. Jirachi and Landorus-T both use it well, but is it really broken on those two?

I see I'm outnumbered here so this will be my last post, this is more a philosophy and opinion topic than anything else.

Think of a Scarfer with mediocre speed with four unSTABed coverage moves and find a place for it on your team
Borderline Uber? No? That's Genesect sans U-Turn, so that says a lot

Yeah, but think of a set-up sweeper with one easily trapped counter. Genesect would be banned fairly quickly again if U-turn was banned imo. But like I'm saying, Genesect was good with it because of it's high attack, Download, and STAB boost on U-turn. None of the current OU abusers (bar Scizor) can boast that

 

[Shrug]

Thundy-T basically just uses it as a coverage move for Celebi and Lati@s

U-Turn is never a coverage move, even on things where it would make sense like Landorus-I, and why the hell would Thunderus use it as a coverage move with 145 Special Attack, please explain

Yeah, but think of a set-up sweeper with one easily trapped counter.

Please post your surefire Terrakion counter here, or better yet, Lucario. It's checkable, and it even has a counter, unlike some things, which aren't broken. No bearing.

Genesect was good with it because of it's high attack, Download, and STAB boost on U-turn.

That made Genesect harder to switch into, sure, but the real reason it was good is it could always ensure an excellent matchup for any other pokemon. (Like Jirachi can with U-Turn). I actually remember a post by someone who said Genesect was more a support pokemon as it offered offensive teams often crippling momentum on a silver platter. That's the biggest reason it was banned, and if you think it can do that without U-Turn, then...

 

[Halcyon.]

U-Turn is never a coverage move, even on things where it would make sense like Landorus-I, and why the hell would Thunderus use it as a coverage move with 145 Special Attack, please explain



Please post your surefire Terrakion counter here, or better yet, Lucario. It's checkable, and it even has a counter, unlike some things, which aren't broken. No bearing.



That made Genesect harder to switch into, sure, but the real reason it was good is it could always ensure an excellent matchup for any other pokemon. (Like Jirachi can with U-Turn). I actually remember a post by someone who said Genesect was more a support pokemon as it offered offensive teams often crippling momentum on a silver platter. That's the biggest reason it was banned, and if you think it can do that without U-Turn, then...

Just wanna point out that Thundurus-T uses U-turn for this EXACT reason. It's the same reason Landorus uses it. It's a way to put a huge dent in Celebi or Lati@s which are considered good counters to Thundurus-T. Why else would it run U-turn over Volt Switch? Like you said, it has much, much better special attack. The only reason to use it is to hit those Pokémon harder than normal.

 

[kalamadude]

Just have to throw my 2 cents in:

A lot of people are talking about U-Turn like there are no penalties to using it. While this may be generally true, I found a fun way to punish it: Rough Skin/Iron Barbs + Rocky Helmet! Every time they use it they take ~30%. Coupled with hazards this adds up terrifically fast. Scizor or Lando-T are worn down and punished for using it. Fits really well on my rain stall team ^^

 

[Schpoonman]

Thundurus-T uses U-turn so that it doesn't lose momentum from immunities. Genesect and Scizor make U-turn fucking incredible because they're backing it with STAB and high base Attack stats, but that's because they're adding this crazy damage on top of the momentum. Unfortunately, Honko is down right now, so I can't show the damage differences with empirical evidence, but I'm pretty sure that HP Ice is hitting harder against Latios at least than U-turn is. Celebi and Latias aren't hit as hard, Celebi because she is very often EVd as a special wall and is 4x weak to U-turn and Latias because she's so naturally specially bulky, but that's a small by-product of U-turn's typing and damage type, not an end to be reached.

 

[Agent Gibbs]

Lord of Bays is right in that U-turn is primarily used on Thundurus-T for the utility, but its coverage is important as well. Assuming a Naive Expert Belt set with a 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe EV spread (this is what I use, at least), HP Ice is still hitting a bit harder against Lati@s than U-turn. However, SpD Celebi is hit much harder by U-turn, and so Thundurus-T can take advantage of U-turn's coverage against Celebi in a similar way that Expert Belt Keldeo does with HP Bug. The Pokemon Showdown! Honkalculator is still working, so here are some calcs for reference:

4 Atk Expert Belt Thundurus-T U-turn vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Celebi: 254-302 (62.87 - 74.75%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Expert Belt Thundurus-T Hidden Power Ice vs. 252 HP / 236+ SpD Celebi: 146-173 (36.13 - 42.82%) -- 95.8% chance to 3HKO

4 Atk Expert Belt Thundurus-T U-turn vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Latias: 139-166 (38.18 - 45.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Expert Belt Thundurus-T Hidden Power Ice vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Latias: 161-190 (44.23 - 52.19%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

4 Atk Expert Belt Thundurus-T U-turn vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Latios: 154-182 (51.16 - 60.46%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Expert Belt Thundurus-T Hidden Power Ice vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Latios: 185-218 (61.46 - 72.42%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Take from that what you will.

 

[vyomov]

A lot of people are talking about U-Turn like there are no penalties to using it. While this may be generally true, I found a fun way to punish it: Rough Skin/Iron Barbs + Rocky Helmet! Every time they use it they take ~30%.

Yes, but it comes at a price:
a) Garchomp(or any other mon with Rough Skin) must now forego CB or any other boosting item that makes it far less dangerous to deal with and easily revenge-killed by Scarfed mons.
b) Ferro(the only mon with Iron Barbs) now loses recovery making it way easier to beat out on the special side.

 

[ginganinja]

U-Turn is never a coverage move, even on things where it would make sense like Landorus-I, and why the hell would Thunderus use it as a coverage move with 145 Special Attack, please explain

Please post your surefire Terrakion counter here, or better yet, Lucario. It's checkable, and it even has a counter, unlike some things, which aren't broken. No bearing.

That made Genesect harder to switch into, sure, but the real reason it was good is it could always ensure an excellent matchup for any other pokemon. (Like Jirachi can with U-Turn). I actually remember a post by someone who said Genesect was more a support pokemon as it offered offensive teams often crippling momentum on a silver platter. That's the biggest reason it was banned, and if you think it can do that without U-Turn, then...

Firstly, U-Turn is used ON Thundurus-T because it nails specially defensive Celebi thus removing it from the number of safe switch-ins Thundurus-T has. As a bonus, it also hits its Lati@s, another common switch in, for good damage (lets say 40%?) on the switch, giving you the advantageous switch, forcing it out (not giving it the chance to recover), after its taken the U-Turn + SR damage, and thus discouraging it from freely switching in again, least it bite another U-Turn. This also works in conjunction with shit like Keldeo, which really enjoy a Latias being forced out with 48% health remaining, as it means Latias cannot really switch into it anymore.

Also Shrug, just watch your tone and attitude, as you sometimes come off as rude or abrasive which has resulted in me having to edit your posts occasionally. Just be as civil as you can man.

 

[Tassa]

Superstar (and some others) > Thundurus-T can make use of U-Turn too, and since it absolutely destroys some of its usual counter (I don't know why I'm thinking about Celebi, mmm...) while having no immunity problem that it has with Volt Switch. [EDIT : Arf, ninja'ed by ginga ^^]

I don't feel to make a long post to explain what others explained better thant I would have, but to summarize my opinion : U-Turn is maybe not "broken" but takes out a lot of skill and has a too low risk:reward, which is really a problem from a competetitive side.

 

[Creative]

I really hope I don't get torn apart for my opinion on this.

I want to start off by saying that I think U-Turn should not be banned. Though it is present on many teams and several good Pokémon, it is not somethiing around which players cannot play. It is a big part of the shift towards offense that we've all undoubtedly noticed with Gen V, and that's not something that we can easily counteract without many more bans than just this. As for the argument about damage: it does rack up, which is just another reason why it's good, not broken; however, as for momentum: the proponents of banning the move (and even some on the other side just arguing the point) seem to be consistently referring to U-Turn using as "mindless," "predictionless," "instant," "risk-free" momentum, and implying that it is always the optimal play, which is isn't. These may be oddly specific, and even a tad extreme, but bear with me on my examples:

1. The 50/50 scenario of Landorus v. Jirachi. Jirachi's optimal play is obviously not U-Turn, because it could very easily get blasted by Earth Power.

2. Specially Defensive Celebi v. Infernape. Celebi's optimal play is also obviously not U-Turn, because it could easily get nuked by a Fire move or a U-Turn before it got its own Turn off.

I realize that both of these scenarios are with potential U-Turners on the offensive side, so let's change that up a little bit.

3. Say your Landorus has just scored a KO after its first switch-in, allowing a free switch into Mamoswine on the side of the opponent. Given that [252 Atk Mamoswine Ice Shard vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Landorus: 288-340 (90.28 - 106.58%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock], the optimal play blah blah blah, I've already said it twice.

And so it goes on. Yes, in all these instances, should the defending potential U-Turner make the play to stay in and go for it, (s)he could be rewarded if the opponent does not make the expected, highly-damaging play with some nice, juicy momentum that we all want so desperately. Keep in mind that this is not debunking the fact that U-Turn gives good momentum and keeps offensive pressure (because it does, very nicely so), but rather it is saying that this is usually only relevant when the U-Turner is faster (or if a switch is necessitated on the opponent's side), and that using it is not always 100% guaranteed, free, easy momentum. That being said, I do acknowledge that it is a very good move, but it is not "broken" or bannable, in my humble opinion. I realize that I have not covered all possible scenarios, so there may be gaps in my story or flaws in my logic, and I apologize in advance. Just be gentle (+SpDef, -Def) when criticizing me, please.

 

[AJC]

it doesn't have to be 100% guaranteed just being being 80 or so guaranteed is enough.

u-turn's safeness as a move is so far above every other move it's pretty disturbing actually imo.

 

[Scotti]

I felt like posting somewhere because i was bored,and i felt like discussing the power of U-Turn, so here i am. Anyway i think U-Turn is not broken. Here is a Scenario.

Your opponent just killed one of your pokemon with U-Turn and went to Landorus-T. You have a sun team and sent out Venusaur. Well now the opponent is in the losing situation. You may say well Landorus-T just can U-Turn to some other pokemon to wall Venusaur, but lets be reasonable what is he going to go to Heatran, well you have Earthquake. You may say another pokemon, but come on who has 1million ways to beat Venusaur. My point is after a U-Turner kills one of your pokemon or finally decides to do something beside U-Turn it is easy setup Fodder sometimes. Venusaur can grab a boost and sweep the opposing team. You may say they can just U-Turn / Volt-Switch to the counter, but come on in almost every post it talks about how the U-Turner can just U-Turn on the opposing pokemon, but seriously how can you opponent counter your whole team. You may say there are some ways, but thats just bad teambuilding. There might be 1 or 2 counters, but if you get past those counters what can your opponent do U-Turn to another NO. When I fight U-Turn i look for a pokemon that i can setup on with ease and easily sweep. The problem with U-Turn is that you lose most of your Momentum after you actually defeat something. It allows your opponent to easily come in and sweep.

Though this may not be the best example or the best post, but come on U-Turns weakness is how you lose momentum after you take out a pokemon. It easily allows the opponent to setup. I may be wrong about everything i just said, but this is what I THINK. This is just my opinion of how i think U-Turn is not broken. This is where you discuss about U-Turn you could be wrong and not even know it, but were just posting our opinions and discussing others. Were not at war or anything, were not trying to win, were just discussing U-Turn from our own and others point of view.

 

[PK Gaming]

Ok that's enough.

The poll results speak for themselves, and the current discussion is going nowhere. I am doing the fair thing by warning you guys in advance, but it will stop here. I don't want this issue brought up ever again. If you really want to take this further, you're free to bring this up in PR and then deal with the decision the community makes there, but I don't want to see any talk of banning U-turn in the OU subforum.