Mienfoo is definitely amazing, it's just not ban-worthy. Definitely not overrated, imo
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Tiering Direction and Changes for XY (read post 24 if you posted recently)
- Thread starter blarajan
- Start date
i feel sort of entitled to post here because i used to be really into lc (i led the tier on PO for a long time before i came to smogon, to give those of you who dont know an idea), and now i think it sucks ass. this should tell you that i'm not a little cup hater just for the sake of it (as in, i'm not one of those people who believes the entire premise of the tier is shit). my problem with the tier is, as many other people have alluded to thus far in itt, the fact that its overcentralized and stale as fuck.
i mean there's also the thing that SO MANY FUCKING GAMES are decided on 19 vs 19 speed ties, but that's the only 'problem' with the concept behind LC itself. notice the quotes around the word problem, btw.
anyway, this might sound a little biased because i'm probably the most banhappy person on smogon (besides maybe jabba lol), but i think unbanning things is the wrong way to go. thinking through it logically, things get banned because they're too good, when things are too good the meta revolves around them, hence unbanning things is going to--in the long run--keep the metagame centralized (granted, around different things, but that's just as bad, if not worse).
i honestly think the correct path to take is the opposite. being more liberal with banning (and unbanning, if you believe you've made a mistake) leads to a more diverse metagame and hits the 'ideal' metagame more quickly (and more often). the metagame will always be centralized around a few top threats, especially when the playerbase is so small, but the less powerful those threats are, the less people will be inclined to use the same 10 pokemon every time.
obviously, as someone who hasn't played the tier seriously in a long time, my opinion isn't worth more than that of those who have been playing regularly recently. however, given that i used to be in love with the tier and am currently a tier leader on smogon, it should be worth something.
i mean there's also the thing that SO MANY FUCKING GAMES are decided on 19 vs 19 speed ties, but that's the only 'problem' with the concept behind LC itself. notice the quotes around the word problem, btw.
anyway, this might sound a little biased because i'm probably the most banhappy person on smogon (besides maybe jabba lol), but i think unbanning things is the wrong way to go. thinking through it logically, things get banned because they're too good, when things are too good the meta revolves around them, hence unbanning things is going to--in the long run--keep the metagame centralized (granted, around different things, but that's just as bad, if not worse).
i honestly think the correct path to take is the opposite. being more liberal with banning (and unbanning, if you believe you've made a mistake) leads to a more diverse metagame and hits the 'ideal' metagame more quickly (and more often). the metagame will always be centralized around a few top threats, especially when the playerbase is so small, but the less powerful those threats are, the less people will be inclined to use the same 10 pokemon every time.
obviously, as someone who hasn't played the tier seriously in a long time, my opinion isn't worth more than that of those who have been playing regularly recently. however, given that i used to be in love with the tier and am currently a tier leader on smogon, it should be worth something.
However, my problem with banning more, is that, firstly, youre just limiting what people can use and creating a really really narrow metagame. Second, you'd be banning the most powerful mons in the tier. That's great and all, but then you have to actually define 'powerful' which differs player to player. Chinchou is powerful to one player who uses it all the time, but to another player, who always uses lileep, chinchou is mediocre, not worthy of a ban.
For the first part, youre removing a large portion of the metagame. They way i interpret 'liberal banning' is basically anything S tier or damn close. Which means weatherless, "M" less metagame. Which in itself wouldnt be that fun, at least imo. And as stated above, the reasons im against liberal banning are twofold. There will always be pokemon that are too good for the current metagame. If you ban the big M's for example, there will always be some pokemon who excel above the sirvivors. Then you end up banning those mons, because they are too good for everything else to handle them, bar currently banned threats. I dont remember who said this, but they said the metagame adapts to check itself. That is one of the truest things ive heard in a long time. The metagame in itself produces things to check/counter other things and so on so forth. The main joy in pokemon is to find those specific niches and utilise them to their fullest. Obviously there are exceptions, i.e arceus in ou or kyurem-b in uu or something stupid like that. What im hoping for in 6th gen is a conservative ban policy. Unbanning everything is also a good idea imo. If theyre broken in lc then we ban them. But theres no sense in keeping scytherand friends banned.
TL;DR no bans lgi
For the first part, youre removing a large portion of the metagame. They way i interpret 'liberal banning' is basically anything S tier or damn close. Which means weatherless, "M" less metagame. Which in itself wouldnt be that fun, at least imo. And as stated above, the reasons im against liberal banning are twofold. There will always be pokemon that are too good for the current metagame. If you ban the big M's for example, there will always be some pokemon who excel above the sirvivors. Then you end up banning those mons, because they are too good for everything else to handle them, bar currently banned threats. I dont remember who said this, but they said the metagame adapts to check itself. That is one of the truest things ive heard in a long time. The metagame in itself produces things to check/counter other things and so on so forth. The main joy in pokemon is to find those specific niches and utilise them to their fullest. Obviously there are exceptions, i.e arceus in ou or kyurem-b in uu or something stupid like that. What im hoping for in 6th gen is a conservative ban policy. Unbanning everything is also a good idea imo. If theyre broken in lc then we ban them. But theres no sense in keeping scytherand friends banned.
TL;DR no bans lgi
The problem is that we DON'T know if those threats will be broken for X/Y. Just keeping things banned without even knowing if they're truly broken or not is not the way to go, and they may not be overpowered or too good. Besides, we don't even know the full X/Y roster and gameplay changes, so maybe the meta will be completely different.
I don't really agree with that, but mostly because 90% of the time, the pokémon we want to ban are not broken, but simply centralizing, and in my opinion, banning a pokémon that's not overpowered isn't the way to go to make an ideal metagame. Besides, even if we ban them, we can't know if the meta will be better or worse, because these pokémon were not overpowered and actually added more options to teambuilding.
@minime1164 : Sorry, I'm confused as to why banning a centralising Pokemon would create a narrow metagame. I'm of the opinion that leaving them in creates a narrow metagame. Murkrow and Misdreavus really restrict teambuilding options as you have to pack about 2 checks to them, particularly in Murkrow's case. It's not as if we're limiting options, if you look at the many Pokemon that are unused in LC that could become usable if we banned Murkrow or Misdreavus. LC doesn't exactly have a shortage of mons that could become usable.
Despite putting forward a pro-ban argument here, I do agree with unbanning most things at the beginning. If only because if we go through and ban lots then we'll have an evolving metagame which will attract new users and stop it being stale if there are tier changes every 3 months or so. (like uu, ru, nu)
On a semi-related note can I ask anyone who knows why we unbanned the big 3 in the first place? Was there anything wrong with the round 5 meta? I think it was the most balanced meta in LC with nothing outstandingly broken and many usable mons, so what drove the council to unban Krow, Missy and Gligar?
Despite putting forward a pro-ban argument here, I do agree with unbanning most things at the beginning. If only because if we go through and ban lots then we'll have an evolving metagame which will attract new users and stop it being stale if there are tier changes every 3 months or so. (like uu, ru, nu)
On a semi-related note can I ask anyone who knows why we unbanned the big 3 in the first place? Was there anything wrong with the round 5 meta? I think it was the most balanced meta in LC with nothing outstandingly broken and many usable mons, so what drove the council to unban Krow, Missy and Gligar?
I kind of agree with that line of thinking. Bear in mind Generation VI will probably last 3-4 years. Even the Pokemon that people are 99% sure would be broken in Gen VI, is it that bad if they're in the metagame for the first month or two?
Except when you start banning, you eventually uncover more centralizing things. Take for example, banning sand. Snow would become extremely centralizing(poor example but it gets my point across).
Except running two checks to murkrow really isnt that hard. With pokemon such as snover, porygon, chinchou, etc being common in the meta, they also have other uses outside checking murkrow. And thats what makes it non ban worthy in my eyes. Unlike (another example, this time higher up in the tiers) keldeo. Where youre forced to run some pokemon who are fairly useless outside countering keldeo
As to many unused pokemon, the majority of them are kinda crap tbh. From d tier down theres honestly never a reason to use them. And from c tier up, i see a lot of people using them. Not as much As something like mienfoo or hippo, but they still get usage. The trouble is most people dont know their niche, or how to use it coreectly. Case in point, i almost got wrecked by kingler12345's deerling in a ladder match, a pokemon almost never used. But in the hands of a skilled player who can find that niche, its a pretty scary pokemon
I'm not saying that running two Murkrow checks is difficult. I'm saying it's limiting to what options you have. Most teams I see that break the 1900 mark on PS ladder are something along the lines of Snover/Murkrow/Missy/Fighter(foo, sometimes burr)/Staryu or Drilbur/Krow check. Now, it's not hard to pack 1 C rank mon. But at least 4 members of every good team will be A rank+. I also played before the unbanning of the big 3 and I honestly think that teambuilding was much less restricting then.
Anyway, we shouldn't be talking about this gen, we should be talking about next gen. I just think that if we end up with another situation where we have a small group of centralising mons such as Murkrow then I think banning would be a better idea.
Anyway, we shouldn't be talking about this gen, we should be talking about next gen. I just think that if we end up with another situation where we have a small group of centralising mons such as Murkrow then I think banning would be a better idea.
I'd really like to just point out one more thing (and thanks for your nice response on the council, blara, I actually agree with you now!)
A lot of people have been complaining about overcentralization, but I think they need to rethink some things. People use Pokemon like Mienfoo, Misdreavus, and Murkrow because they are good. Philosophically speaking, there should, at any given time, be 6 best Pokemon in the meta. Granted, they may not synergize super well, and those 6 may sometimes change, but there should be an objective way to define this based on number of available sets, % of the meta said Pokemon can beat, and ability to work with other common Pokemon. We haven't found a way to objectively identify these 6 Pokemon ever, in any metagame, nor is it likely that we ever will.
A competitive metagame is one in which people are using the best Pokemon in the meta. What you need to understand is that people using inferior choices for style points are not playing competitively. People trying out new things as a potential counter to something commonly used are metagaming, but not if their potential counter is objectively inferior to another Pokemon in the meta. A "competitive" Pokemon needs some sort of niche: and that niche may allow it to rise into prominency or be too insignificant to matter in the long run.
Again, and this is mostly philosophical: there is a clear cut distinction between a competitive metagame and a diverse metagame. They are not always mutually exclusive, but whether or not they are mutually exclusive IS NOT UP TO US, IT'S AN INHERENT ASPECT OF GAME FREAK'S CREATION OF THE POKEMON IN A GIVEN TIER THAT WE HAVE ESTABLISHED.
I believe LC is currently a competitive tier. It is overcentralized, but I believe taking more attempts to decentralize it at this point in the metagame to add diversity are wrong. The reason is that the commonly used Pokemon (people often point to Mienfoo, Misdreavus, and Murkrow - likely 3 of our hypothetical 6) are good, but not imbalanced. Usage does not justify any degree of overpowered-ness. Only stats, movepool, typing, and other components can do that. A Pokemon's effectiveness in a metagame should not be qualifications for being banned. This leads to people not learning to adapt to a meta, ever. Competitively speaking, the best Pokemon that are not inherently overpowered (and most people seem to agree Mienfoo, Missy, and Murkrow are not) should be used as much as possible in order to create the most competitive atmosphere possible.
Eventually, you might counter, people would be fighting the same teams of 6 v 6 Pokemon. The great thing about Pokemon is that even in those circumstances, move choices, who they lead with, EVs, and moves on individual turns would still differ. However, a metagame in which everyone is using the same 6 mons would never last as people would learn to adapt to that exceedingly predictable. In turn, a new 6 Pokemon would rise (perhaps including some of the previous "elite 6") allowing a just as competitive metagame.
If you're worried about diversity, I don't think competitive Pokemon is necessarily for you. What you want is a bunch of different choices where all Pokemon are created equal and games would mostly if not entirely be won merely in teambuilding. To call that healthy for a competitive environment is, in a word, foolish.
Edit (In response to Corkscrew; why were Misdreavus, Murkrow, and Gligar unbanned): These Pokemon were unbanned due to the belief that they were not actually broken, merely banned rashly (Murkrow is a good example of this; as I think it was banned before it had Brave Bird, and if i recall correctly, Gligar only actually got discussed for a few days after people bandwagoned on AcroBat, hyped it endlessly, then banned it). In the end, Gligar was banned (although not due solely to that AcroBat set as its first ban, mind you) again. In the meta previous to this one, Mienfoo was arguably more dominant than now (except in the period Gligar was there) and the metagame was just as stale, revolving heavily around Mienfoo (44% in November 2011), Gastly (who has since been replaced by Missy, at 35% in November 2011) and Chinchou and Scraggy (28 and 24%, respectively, in November 2011). And in December, the last month we had "real" stats before the unbannings, Mienfoo went as high as 51% and Gastly all the way up to 40%. All of this is much worse than anything our current stats portray by as much as 20%.
A lot of people have been complaining about overcentralization, but I think they need to rethink some things. People use Pokemon like Mienfoo, Misdreavus, and Murkrow because they are good. Philosophically speaking, there should, at any given time, be 6 best Pokemon in the meta. Granted, they may not synergize super well, and those 6 may sometimes change, but there should be an objective way to define this based on number of available sets, % of the meta said Pokemon can beat, and ability to work with other common Pokemon. We haven't found a way to objectively identify these 6 Pokemon ever, in any metagame, nor is it likely that we ever will.
A competitive metagame is one in which people are using the best Pokemon in the meta. What you need to understand is that people using inferior choices for style points are not playing competitively. People trying out new things as a potential counter to something commonly used are metagaming, but not if their potential counter is objectively inferior to another Pokemon in the meta. A "competitive" Pokemon needs some sort of niche: and that niche may allow it to rise into prominency or be too insignificant to matter in the long run.
Again, and this is mostly philosophical: there is a clear cut distinction between a competitive metagame and a diverse metagame. They are not always mutually exclusive, but whether or not they are mutually exclusive IS NOT UP TO US, IT'S AN INHERENT ASPECT OF GAME FREAK'S CREATION OF THE POKEMON IN A GIVEN TIER THAT WE HAVE ESTABLISHED.
I believe LC is currently a competitive tier. It is overcentralized, but I believe taking more attempts to decentralize it at this point in the metagame to add diversity are wrong. The reason is that the commonly used Pokemon (people often point to Mienfoo, Misdreavus, and Murkrow - likely 3 of our hypothetical 6) are good, but not imbalanced. Usage does not justify any degree of overpowered-ness. Only stats, movepool, typing, and other components can do that. A Pokemon's effectiveness in a metagame should not be qualifications for being banned. This leads to people not learning to adapt to a meta, ever. Competitively speaking, the best Pokemon that are not inherently overpowered (and most people seem to agree Mienfoo, Missy, and Murkrow are not) should be used as much as possible in order to create the most competitive atmosphere possible.
Eventually, you might counter, people would be fighting the same teams of 6 v 6 Pokemon. The great thing about Pokemon is that even in those circumstances, move choices, who they lead with, EVs, and moves on individual turns would still differ. However, a metagame in which everyone is using the same 6 mons would never last as people would learn to adapt to that exceedingly predictable. In turn, a new 6 Pokemon would rise (perhaps including some of the previous "elite 6") allowing a just as competitive metagame.
If you're worried about diversity, I don't think competitive Pokemon is necessarily for you. What you want is a bunch of different choices where all Pokemon are created equal and games would mostly if not entirely be won merely in teambuilding. To call that healthy for a competitive environment is, in a word, foolish.
Edit (In response to Corkscrew; why were Misdreavus, Murkrow, and Gligar unbanned): These Pokemon were unbanned due to the belief that they were not actually broken, merely banned rashly (Murkrow is a good example of this; as I think it was banned before it had Brave Bird, and if i recall correctly, Gligar only actually got discussed for a few days after people bandwagoned on AcroBat, hyped it endlessly, then banned it). In the end, Gligar was banned (although not due solely to that AcroBat set as its first ban, mind you) again. In the meta previous to this one, Mienfoo was arguably more dominant than now (except in the period Gligar was there) and the metagame was just as stale, revolving heavily around Mienfoo (44% in November 2011), Gastly (who has since been replaced by Missy, at 35% in November 2011) and Chinchou and Scraggy (28 and 24%, respectively, in November 2011). And in December, the last month we had "real" stats before the unbannings, Mienfoo went as high as 51% and Gastly all the way up to 40%. All of this is much worse than anything our current stats portray by as much as 20%.
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Pls, most broken core in LC UU is Growlithe, Exeggcute, Tentacool.
Because of how first evolution pokemon are oriented (some with complete garbage stats/movepool), there will always be a higher class that will be frequently used, same was seen in 4th gen, also there wasnt a "big 3". What people don't realize about one of the great things about a stale metagame is that battles between top players is 100% skill. Sometimes if you play OU, you can just look at your opponents team and say "Well crap I lost this one". Never in LC. pls blarajan baby dont unban yamna lol
And idk why subkrow is still the most popular set, probably the worst one out there.
totally agree on banning everything bar what we already know is inherently broken.
the one thing to note is that next gen foo, missy, and krow will definitely be good, there's no doubt in my mind. there is nothing you can do about overcentralization in little cup, in my opinion, unless you ban everything that is somewhat decent. in the 1850 august stats, only thirteen gen v pokemon made the top 50, 3 in the top ten. little cup is diverse in some regards, but in others it is very stale. missy/krow/foo/snover/scraggy/drilbur is just a good team and people will continue to use teams like that because they're good and the only teams that can compete with them are other missy/krow/foo/snover/scraggy/drilbur teams (to an extent, of course).
it's like the keldeo/ttar/lando core in ou or using jynx/scolipede/golurk/sawk/filler/filler in nu. those teams are good in nature because those are the top-tier threats. the difference is that those metagames are a lot more diverse and much less overcentralized, maybe because perhaps facing a jynx isn't as gamebreaking as facing a murkrow half the time.
i would rather have a metagame that has foo, missy, krow, gligar, carvanha, meditite, drilbur, scraggy, abra, snover, etc than a metagame where there are a lot less top-tier options to choose from. i only ever find myself using the top 20 pokemon right now, maybe even top 15 most of the time.
this metagame is competitive, don't get me wrong. personally i just don't really find it that fun to see balanced offense ever othery match with foo/krow/missy/filler/filler/filler, but maybe then i shouldn't be playing pokemon?
when gen vi comes, there's needs to be a solid amount of time for the metagame to grow as a whole and for people to discover new sets, play with new pokemon, etc.
the one thing to note is that next gen foo, missy, and krow will definitely be good, there's no doubt in my mind. there is nothing you can do about overcentralization in little cup, in my opinion, unless you ban everything that is somewhat decent. in the 1850 august stats, only thirteen gen v pokemon made the top 50, 3 in the top ten. little cup is diverse in some regards, but in others it is very stale. missy/krow/foo/snover/scraggy/drilbur is just a good team and people will continue to use teams like that because they're good and the only teams that can compete with them are other missy/krow/foo/snover/scraggy/drilbur teams (to an extent, of course).
it's like the keldeo/ttar/lando core in ou or using jynx/scolipede/golurk/sawk/filler/filler in nu. those teams are good in nature because those are the top-tier threats. the difference is that those metagames are a lot more diverse and much less overcentralized, maybe because perhaps facing a jynx isn't as gamebreaking as facing a murkrow half the time.
i would rather have a metagame that has foo, missy, krow, gligar, carvanha, meditite, drilbur, scraggy, abra, snover, etc than a metagame where there are a lot less top-tier options to choose from. i only ever find myself using the top 20 pokemon right now, maybe even top 15 most of the time.
this metagame is competitive, don't get me wrong. personally i just don't really find it that fun to see balanced offense ever othery match with foo/krow/missy/filler/filler/filler, but maybe then i shouldn't be playing pokemon?
when gen vi comes, there's needs to be a solid amount of time for the metagame to grow as a whole and for people to discover new sets, play with new pokemon, etc.
I'm pretty sure someone is going to strongly disagree with me here, but I've been saying this for the past year at least on both Pokemon Online and Showdown. One reason LC is fairly stale and overcentralized is because people are simply un-creative and un-innovative. Many players aren't willing to venture outside a team that looks like Mienfoo/Missy/Murkrow/Porygon/Drilbur/Filler. The most exciting things I've seen recently are CM Elygem and a funky Lickitung set with Counter, and the former is hardly anything new.
Let me just give an example. Budew isn't as obvious of a pick as Foongus, but with Spikes, Natural Cure, and good bulk spreads like 23 hp/12 def/16 sdef it's a very strong potential pick. But what tier is it? E. I've never even seen anyone on Showdown use Budew in a couple hundred games. He's perfectly viable against top players, I can attest to that, and it's far more viable than Ferroseed as a Spiker.
Need another example? Cranidos. Clamperl has been recognized as an amazing specially offensive stall breaker, but Cranidos deserves some light too, being able to reach the equivalent of 40 attack with his ability and a Life Orb. With Sheer Force and a movepool of Rock Slide/Fire Punch/Zen Headbutt/EQ/Superpower/Rock Polish, there is no such thing as a safe switch in. Pair it with some U Turn and Volt Switch, and you've got a nifty way to gain momentum. Both perfectly viable against strong players with 1900+ skill level.
These aren't even gimmicks. They are viable sets that need to correct backbone and team to work with. Many people just can't see past "The Big 3" + Hazards and Porygon. Disagree and argue with me if you want, I'm sure that this seems like a very radical point of view, which is why I'm hesitant to express it. With a new generation rolling around, I just hope that once the 6th Gen LC metagame settles in, people won't just spam the same core over and over again then call the metagame stale without bothering to try to venture out and test stupid sets until they find one that works. If a set looks ridiculous on paper, try it anyway. It must be decent enough for you to even consider drawing it up, right?
Let me just give an example. Budew isn't as obvious of a pick as Foongus, but with Spikes, Natural Cure, and good bulk spreads like 23 hp/12 def/16 sdef it's a very strong potential pick. But what tier is it? E. I've never even seen anyone on Showdown use Budew in a couple hundred games. He's perfectly viable against top players, I can attest to that, and it's far more viable than Ferroseed as a Spiker.
Need another example? Cranidos. Clamperl has been recognized as an amazing specially offensive stall breaker, but Cranidos deserves some light too, being able to reach the equivalent of 40 attack with his ability and a Life Orb. With Sheer Force and a movepool of Rock Slide/Fire Punch/Zen Headbutt/EQ/Superpower/Rock Polish, there is no such thing as a safe switch in. Pair it with some U Turn and Volt Switch, and you've got a nifty way to gain momentum. Both perfectly viable against strong players with 1900+ skill level.
These aren't even gimmicks. They are viable sets that need to correct backbone and team to work with. Many people just can't see past "The Big 3" + Hazards and Porygon. Disagree and argue with me if you want, I'm sure that this seems like a very radical point of view, which is why I'm hesitant to express it. With a new generation rolling around, I just hope that once the 6th Gen LC metagame settles in, people won't just spam the same core over and over again then call the metagame stale without bothering to try to venture out and test stupid sets until they find one that works. If a set looks ridiculous on paper, try it anyway. It must be decent enough for you to even consider drawing it up, right?
I'm just going to make one comment. I'll probably post more thoughts later. (Oc = overcentralization)
Overcentralization in LC is a problem, as we've identified for now. However, I'm not sure we all agree on WHY or how to fix such a problem. Here's what I think.
First of all, yeah overcentralization is one of Lc's biggest problems. Other tiers like OU or UU don't really have this problem. When they do, they ban stuff and it's all good, basically.
How is LC different? Well, first and foremost, LC deals with every single first evolution in the game. Just like all final evos differ enough to warrant 5 different singles tiers, all first evos differ in power, stats, ability, etc as well.
UNLIKE the other tiers, unfortunately, LC can not bet on banning things in order to cut down on OC. This is because the spread of power of Pokemon in the LC tier varies just as much as the whole lvl 100 Pokemon spectrum, instead of focusing on just one section determined by power and usage like the standard tiers do. To put things in perspective, LC is like playing in a metagame where both Sandslash and Excadrill are ok. Which would YOU rather use as a Sand sweeper?
Banning things is not our best way of solving this problem because new OCing Pokemon will undoubtedly rise up. This is solely because of the massive power difference in the LC meta. We've got pidgeys fighting Murkrows for spots on teams. Of course Murkrow is going to win 99.99% of the time.
So, really the only thing we can do to alleviate this problem is unban more.
Overcentralization in LC is a problem, as we've identified for now. However, I'm not sure we all agree on WHY or how to fix such a problem. Here's what I think.
First of all, yeah overcentralization is one of Lc's biggest problems. Other tiers like OU or UU don't really have this problem. When they do, they ban stuff and it's all good, basically.
How is LC different? Well, first and foremost, LC deals with every single first evolution in the game. Just like all final evos differ enough to warrant 5 different singles tiers, all first evos differ in power, stats, ability, etc as well.
UNLIKE the other tiers, unfortunately, LC can not bet on banning things in order to cut down on OC. This is because the spread of power of Pokemon in the LC tier varies just as much as the whole lvl 100 Pokemon spectrum, instead of focusing on just one section determined by power and usage like the standard tiers do. To put things in perspective, LC is like playing in a metagame where both Sandslash and Excadrill are ok. Which would YOU rather use as a Sand sweeper?
Banning things is not our best way of solving this problem because new OCing Pokemon will undoubtedly rise up. This is solely because of the massive power difference in the LC meta. We've got pidgeys fighting Murkrows for spots on teams. Of course Murkrow is going to win 99.99% of the time.
So, really the only thing we can do to alleviate this problem is unban more.
Disclaimer: I have never played a Little Cup game in my life. This is for similar reasons to kokoloko having stopped, I don't object to it in principle, it just seems a bit stale to me. The points i make are going to be abstract/philosophical - experienced LC players can fill in their own examples or reject the ideas as having no grounds in reality.
How does a metagame evolve? Well, at the beginning of every generation, the metagame has a ruleset X, decided by GameFreak (at least for OU, Ubers and LC - OU and LC may have initial banlists but these will only be for OBVIOUSLY broken stuff). Ruleset X remains more-or-less unchanged throught the generation, although new abilities and moves are sometimes released through events. Nobody knows what to use in the primordial OU metagame, because nobody knows (a) what is good to use and, more importantly (b) what other people are using, on average (this is important knowledge, an important part of teambuilding is carrying checks/counters to common threats). As a result you can't really build a good team, as some opponent will beat you with some random threat you hadn't accounted for.
Eventually, it becomes clear that some Pokemon are very good indeed. These Pokemon get high usage (usage =/= usefulness, but they are linked). Some may be suspected and/or banned (this adds another component to the ruleset, Y, which is decided on by Smogon). After a while, a metagame is reached where nothing broken remains in the tier, and usage stats do not fluctuate wildly from one month to the next. This is a stable metagame. Only once OU is stable can UU get going, and likewise for lower tiers. UU will also have an initial unstable period, followed by suspect testing, etc etc.
And this is a good thing. A stable metagame is what we all want, otherwise teambuilding is an impossible task. You can only know your enemy in a stable metagame, and knowing your enemy is half the battle.
The problem is when this is taken a stage further. It is good that people have the same idea of what a good Pokemon to use is. When that becomes bad is when players also have the same idea of what is a good team to use. (That's why, in RMT rates, you can change one Pokemon and a couple of moves, but you shouldn't be changing a whole team to one you posted a few weeks ago.) Teambuilding has gone from being impossible to being challenging, and then on to being trivial. A balance must be struck.
But we can't just start banning things left, right and centre to try and increase metagame diversity. We only ban things that are truly broken, not just the best Pokemon in a metagame. This much is obvious: no matter how many Pokemon are banned, there will always be a best Pokemon remaining. A metagame in which all the "best Pokemon remaining" have been removed is no metagame at all. The only way to tackle the problem properly is by innovation.
So, innovate. Do stuff that other people aren't doing. In fact, it may be easier to innovate in a stable metagame than in an unstable one, because you can actually have a fair idea of what an innovative niche might be in relation to metagame staples. Particularly those with the right touch, or those who just try everything on the grounds that something must work, or even those who just get lucky, will discover something new, exciting, and anti-metagame. These new discovered threats will add richness to the metagame. Happily, there is a cascade effect. People will then start looking for ways to counter the new threats, leading to even more richness. The former big threats may even fall by the wayside a little, but that's okay, because as they do so new ones are emerging all the time. Not so fast that players can't keep up, but not so slowly that they become bored. That's what an ideal metagame looks like.
And finally, a corollary. The previous paragraph may have come across as a bit of a slap in the face of the LC community, so let me say this: it is not necessarily thoughtless teambuilding and a lack of innovation that has caused this apparent problem. As I have mentioned before, Smogon does not have total control of the metagame. A large part is designed by a multi-million-dollar corporation for the purposes of extracting money from eight-year-old children and their indulgent parents. We shouldn't really be surprised then, when the playable roster we are given is not automatically best-suited for an entirely different purpose - that of creating a stimulating competitive environment. A craftsman can only work with the tools he has. If it just so happens that the rules thrusted upon us result in a centralised metagame, then, at the end of the day, it could just be bad luck.
Wow, long post.
How does a metagame evolve? Well, at the beginning of every generation, the metagame has a ruleset X, decided by GameFreak (at least for OU, Ubers and LC - OU and LC may have initial banlists but these will only be for OBVIOUSLY broken stuff). Ruleset X remains more-or-less unchanged throught the generation, although new abilities and moves are sometimes released through events. Nobody knows what to use in the primordial OU metagame, because nobody knows (a) what is good to use and, more importantly (b) what other people are using, on average (this is important knowledge, an important part of teambuilding is carrying checks/counters to common threats). As a result you can't really build a good team, as some opponent will beat you with some random threat you hadn't accounted for.
Eventually, it becomes clear that some Pokemon are very good indeed. These Pokemon get high usage (usage =/= usefulness, but they are linked). Some may be suspected and/or banned (this adds another component to the ruleset, Y, which is decided on by Smogon). After a while, a metagame is reached where nothing broken remains in the tier, and usage stats do not fluctuate wildly from one month to the next. This is a stable metagame. Only once OU is stable can UU get going, and likewise for lower tiers. UU will also have an initial unstable period, followed by suspect testing, etc etc.
And this is a good thing. A stable metagame is what we all want, otherwise teambuilding is an impossible task. You can only know your enemy in a stable metagame, and knowing your enemy is half the battle.
The problem is when this is taken a stage further. It is good that people have the same idea of what a good Pokemon to use is. When that becomes bad is when players also have the same idea of what is a good team to use. (That's why, in RMT rates, you can change one Pokemon and a couple of moves, but you shouldn't be changing a whole team to one you posted a few weeks ago.) Teambuilding has gone from being impossible to being challenging, and then on to being trivial. A balance must be struck.
But we can't just start banning things left, right and centre to try and increase metagame diversity. We only ban things that are truly broken, not just the best Pokemon in a metagame. This much is obvious: no matter how many Pokemon are banned, there will always be a best Pokemon remaining. A metagame in which all the "best Pokemon remaining" have been removed is no metagame at all. The only way to tackle the problem properly is by innovation.
So, innovate. Do stuff that other people aren't doing. In fact, it may be easier to innovate in a stable metagame than in an unstable one, because you can actually have a fair idea of what an innovative niche might be in relation to metagame staples. Particularly those with the right touch, or those who just try everything on the grounds that something must work, or even those who just get lucky, will discover something new, exciting, and anti-metagame. These new discovered threats will add richness to the metagame. Happily, there is a cascade effect. People will then start looking for ways to counter the new threats, leading to even more richness. The former big threats may even fall by the wayside a little, but that's okay, because as they do so new ones are emerging all the time. Not so fast that players can't keep up, but not so slowly that they become bored. That's what an ideal metagame looks like.
And finally, a corollary. The previous paragraph may have come across as a bit of a slap in the face of the LC community, so let me say this: it is not necessarily thoughtless teambuilding and a lack of innovation that has caused this apparent problem. As I have mentioned before, Smogon does not have total control of the metagame. A large part is designed by a multi-million-dollar corporation for the purposes of extracting money from eight-year-old children and their indulgent parents. We shouldn't really be surprised then, when the playable roster we are given is not automatically best-suited for an entirely different purpose - that of creating a stimulating competitive environment. A craftsman can only work with the tools he has. If it just so happens that the rules thrusted upon us result in a centralised metagame, then, at the end of the day, it could just be bad luck.
Wow, long post.
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I started playing LC last year. I'm not sure Little Cup is a annoyer tier. Indeed, playing with same circle of pokemon, increases skill and how you have to play to have good results, I like play LC. It's not natural drops/raises like the other tier, this is the real constraint about LC, which is without a real "shuffle the card".
I trust those who are more expert than me, I really hope to be able to actively participate in an LC XY even more compelling and well balanced.
PS: Thanks to Ray Jay, I like very much his message.
I trust those who are more expert than me, I really hope to be able to actively participate in an LC XY even more compelling and well balanced.
PS: Thanks to Ray Jay, I like very much his message.
Just gonna say good to be back on the forums! Been too long. Anyway, regarding X and Y LC, the main solution I see would be unbanning everything bar Scyther, Sneasel, Sonicboom, Dragon Rage, and Berry Juice. (I don't see Tangela being broken or overcentralizing if Vulpix is let back in.) Gen 6 is going to bring many new moms to integrate into LC, along with the new mechanics. Gen 5 has gotten stale not because we ran out if ideas, but because the appeal of just stacking S rank threats looks very enticing to new players. I mean how many krow/missy/foo/snover/hazards/filler teams have you seen? There are hidden gems still in this meta. Me and superwiicube64 found an offensive SR Pawniard we liked, and sets like CM elgyem and subpunch munchlax have been showed to me by GlassGlaceon. There are still ways to make this meta fresh, even if it's by bringing one underrated mon into the spotlight. Gen 6 LC would benefit from a giant unbanning for at least the first month. Threats like carvahna, Gligar, yanma etc may be neutralized by new pokemon. also, the thrill of a new meta will be very appealing to veteran players.
Overall, I trust the LC leaders into bringing This fine tier new life. (if my grammar/ spelling was bad I'm on a bus sry)
Overall, I trust the LC leaders into bringing This fine tier new life. (if my grammar/ spelling was bad I'm on a bus sry)
Goddess Briyella
Banned deucer.
Generation VI Little Cup is going to be very different. Something I have not seen mentioned in this whole thread is the new Fairy type, which will resist Fighting, Dark, and Bug (making it able to stand up to top threats such as Mienfoo and Murkrow, as well as the previously banned Sneasel and Scyther, among other things). I think it is safe to say that this new addition to Little Cup is going to take Fighting, Dark, and Bug types (as well as moves) down a notch. For instance, Snubbull being retyped from Normal to Fairy will allow it to destroy Scraggy, Timburr (whose typical offensive coverage is Dark/Fighting), as well as Mienfoo (whose typical offensive coverage is also Dark/Fighting; it still has U-turn to be able to switch out but it is resisted by Fairy as well), and also allows it to stand up to Murkrow, resisting its STAB Dark attacks, threatening it with super effective STAB Fairy attacks, and having Intimidate to take the sting out of its STAB Brave Bird.
This shift will also force Pokemon that haven't been considered really viable before to step up and use Poison or Steel coverage in order to check the new Fairy types (the only big two I can think of that won't be new are Foongus and Pawniard... there's Bronzor but it's setup/Taunt bait). Gastly will finally have a definite use over Misdreavus: STAB Sludge Bomb to nail Fairy types with. It should be noted that the new influx of Poison and Steel STAB being carried to deal with Fairy types will make Ground even more important as an attacking type, making Drilbur even MORE dangerous, and maybe even broken, since it also has Mold Breaker to let it slam Levitating Steels and Poisons such as Gastly and Bronzor with Earthquake for super effective damage. The point is, the only two types that are super effective on Fairy are also weak to Ground, and thus Drilbur will benefit incredibly from this addition of Fairy type, and it was already a top threat in LC before this (I also do not support Gligar being unbanned for similar reasons).
Another important thing I would like to note is that (according to iss) the move Knock Off will have 65 Base Power this gen, which also gets a damage boost (unspecified how much, but still significant) if the target of the move has an item, in ADDITION to removing the target's item. With the sheer importance of Eviolite that we saw in Generation V (more or less helping mons to actually have a chance and not be KOed in one hit), this will change a lot, now that Knock Off can actually hurt things and be used as a Dark coverage move. Misdreavus won't be switching in on Mienfoo like it used to, that's for damn sure. I was very surprised to hear how much of a buff the move got (Knock Off was already pretty good even with just 20 Base Power because the fact that it did SOME damage meant it could break Sashes and work even while Taunted, in addition to item removal) and as it stands now, I personally feel this will either end up broken, or it will make the metagame lean toward much less emphasis on items. Tons of random mons get Knock Off and it's a crippling move that can be used when ANYTHING is forced to switch out. This will be something big to look out for in the new XY LC meta.
I've seen it expressed here that the reason for the same core 12 or so mons being used on practically every team is that they just outclass everything else, and this is a fair point. I'm not going to use Mankey when there's Mienfoo. As much as I dislike how so many other mons never ever see usage due to this, it's hard to argue because it's the truth. Hopefully the new Fairy type, the possibility of cool new held items, and the openness to implementing complex bans will help to make this generation of Little Cup less centralized and more inclusive to a larger group of Pokemon.
I joined the community during the BW2 LC period, which is fairly late, I know, and I wasn't around for the Generation V bans that took place. I do agree that the metagame was largely overcentralized in Generation V, at least when I came into the community, and to be honest, it can be debated, but I found the issue of overcentralization in the tier sort of unsolvable, unless LC could have been split up into tiers where Pidgey and Murkrow didn't have to fight over a team slot, as Electrolyte said. They are in entirely different classes, just as Sandslash and Excadrill are, except Sandslash and Excadrill are separated into different tiers so that both of them can shine in their respective environments. If competitive at Level 100 didn't have a NU tier, or weren't divided into tiers at all, how many of those mons do you think would actually be used? Well, LC in Generation V from my point of view is almost directly comparable to competitive at Level 100, but without tiers. THAT is a big part of why many mons never saw usage, because all of Little Cup's "overused" mons were simply better.
Edit: Also, critical hits now do 1.5x the damage instead of 2x. This will make hax a lot less game-changing rather than in previous situations where a mon at full health could be OHKOed by a critical hit. Crits will still be annoying, but I think this is a significant change to look forward to nonetheless. :)
Edit regarding Knock Off: Knock Off has been confirmed for 65 base power but it has been also confirmed that it does NOT get a damage boost if it hits a target that is holding an item.
This shift will also force Pokemon that haven't been considered really viable before to step up and use Poison or Steel coverage in order to check the new Fairy types (the only big two I can think of that won't be new are Foongus and Pawniard... there's Bronzor but it's setup/Taunt bait). Gastly will finally have a definite use over Misdreavus: STAB Sludge Bomb to nail Fairy types with. It should be noted that the new influx of Poison and Steel STAB being carried to deal with Fairy types will make Ground even more important as an attacking type, making Drilbur even MORE dangerous, and maybe even broken, since it also has Mold Breaker to let it slam Levitating Steels and Poisons such as Gastly and Bronzor with Earthquake for super effective damage. The point is, the only two types that are super effective on Fairy are also weak to Ground, and thus Drilbur will benefit incredibly from this addition of Fairy type, and it was already a top threat in LC before this (I also do not support Gligar being unbanned for similar reasons).
Another important thing I would like to note is that (according to iss) the move Knock Off will have 65 Base Power this gen, which also gets a damage boost (unspecified how much, but still significant) if the target of the move has an item, in ADDITION to removing the target's item. With the sheer importance of Eviolite that we saw in Generation V (more or less helping mons to actually have a chance and not be KOed in one hit), this will change a lot, now that Knock Off can actually hurt things and be used as a Dark coverage move. Misdreavus won't be switching in on Mienfoo like it used to, that's for damn sure. I was very surprised to hear how much of a buff the move got (Knock Off was already pretty good even with just 20 Base Power because the fact that it did SOME damage meant it could break Sashes and work even while Taunted, in addition to item removal) and as it stands now, I personally feel this will either end up broken, or it will make the metagame lean toward much less emphasis on items. Tons of random mons get Knock Off and it's a crippling move that can be used when ANYTHING is forced to switch out. This will be something big to look out for in the new XY LC meta.
I've seen it expressed here that the reason for the same core 12 or so mons being used on practically every team is that they just outclass everything else, and this is a fair point. I'm not going to use Mankey when there's Mienfoo. As much as I dislike how so many other mons never ever see usage due to this, it's hard to argue because it's the truth. Hopefully the new Fairy type, the possibility of cool new held items, and the openness to implementing complex bans will help to make this generation of Little Cup less centralized and more inclusive to a larger group of Pokemon.
I joined the community during the BW2 LC period, which is fairly late, I know, and I wasn't around for the Generation V bans that took place. I do agree that the metagame was largely overcentralized in Generation V, at least when I came into the community, and to be honest, it can be debated, but I found the issue of overcentralization in the tier sort of unsolvable, unless LC could have been split up into tiers where Pidgey and Murkrow didn't have to fight over a team slot, as Electrolyte said. They are in entirely different classes, just as Sandslash and Excadrill are, except Sandslash and Excadrill are separated into different tiers so that both of them can shine in their respective environments. If competitive at Level 100 didn't have a NU tier, or weren't divided into tiers at all, how many of those mons do you think would actually be used? Well, LC in Generation V from my point of view is almost directly comparable to competitive at Level 100, but without tiers. THAT is a big part of why many mons never saw usage, because all of Little Cup's "overused" mons were simply better.
Edit: Also, critical hits now do 1.5x the damage instead of 2x. This will make hax a lot less game-changing rather than in previous situations where a mon at full health could be OHKOed by a critical hit. Crits will still be annoying, but I think this is a significant change to look forward to nonetheless. :)
Edit regarding Knock Off: Knock Off has been confirmed for 65 base power but it has been also confirmed that it does NOT get a damage boost if it hits a target that is holding an item.
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The Main Problem I see with Fairy becoming dominant in the new meta is that all the Gen 1 through 5 pokemon confirmed to be fairy type are awful. Most have horrendous base stats, and the only ones I can see being used are as you said snubbull, and possibly Mime Jr. I am speaking without knowing gen 6 LC valid pokemon. X and Y may bring us new threats that are fairy type. What i do see though, is fairy coverage moves to start being used. Dazzling Gleam, a base 80 fairy special move
has been confirmed as a TM. This will serve as a deterrent to krow, foo, scraggy etc. Just looking at designs, I could see chinchou and magnemite reciving this. Fairy coverage would effect this meta more than the fairies themselves just evaluate of how pitiful we know all the old moms retyped to fairy are. If gen 6 brings amazing fairy types, feel free to laugh in my face, but for now, I think fairy isn't going to be as groundbreaking
This is my current opinion on matter, but right now the Pokemon we already know are inherently broken are...nothing. Pokemon like Scyther and Tangela might not even be broken this gen and we shouldn't assume they are. We don't want to repeat the mistake we made in BW LC by not carrying out a proper suspect testing session for every Pokemon we deem could be broken because of a lack of time near the end of the meta. Let's do it right from the start this generation. There is nothing wrong with just testing a Pokemon in the current meta, so why would we ban them right away?
So in conclusion just unban everything, even Scyther, Tangela, Sneasel etc and suspect them if necessary
edit: except Sonicboom and Dragon Rage heh
I would like to point this out because of how true this is. GF took the second best move in Little Cup (after Stealth Rock ofc) and made it even better. Items like Eviolite and Choice Scarf will be far less reliable and a possible liability when you can not only use Knock Off for removing items but also for general coverage. With that being said, I predict that there will be a switch to instant-use items (Red Card, Power Herb, Air Balloon, Weakness Policy, etc) and/or Eviolite Sticky Hold users (Shellos, Trubbish, Grimer and Gulpin). This will probably make the metagame much more offensive than it was in Gen V. I would like to point out that I don't believe Knock Off should be banned because of this, and that we should wait and see what "anti-Knock Off" strategies people come up with.
Goddess Briyella
Banned deucer.
Good perspective. I'm interested to see how players deal with Knock Off as well. There may be more of an influx of Trick, Covet, and maybe even Thief, to be able to steal items after losing one. I'm excited!
so blarajan has been too lazy to post this stuff so im just gonna say scyther is gonna be insta banned with moody dragon rage and sonic boom, while everything else is unbanned for the joy of testing
also no flight gem gligar so lets all feel bad as we cant use that set for a long time :( well until flight gem gets found in game
also no flight gem gligar so lets all feel bad as we cant use that set for a long time :( well until flight gem gets found in game
Anybody else think lc should have its own tiers like regular metagames so there would be like lc ou uu ru nu and ubers as such this could stop the giant over centralizing of the tier this would lead to more diversity and fun in lc as it would be like the normal tiers where everything is viable someway in a certain tier. Ex ponyta over shadows all fire types (besides maybe darumaka) it's lc ou then in lc uu you could use something like growlithe or charmander. Overall I personally think this would be the best way as to make it into its own series of tiers.
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