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Theorymon Discussion and Viability Ranking
- Thread starter Chou Toshio
- Start date
It would make Ditto more viable but it would be all about timing. I personally think late game would be better to use Ditto. Weaken some stuff and then have a good late game sweeper by coping theirs. Or a solid wall if you copy one of theirs that very little in their team can stop. Team Preview kinda ruins Ditto's appeal IMO. If you know it's there you can prepare it a bit easier than if it suddenly appears
MikeDawg
Banned deucer.
I don't mean worse, perse. I mean easier to deal with.
With aura sphere you are getting consistent, albeit weaker, power
With fblast, you have the potential for 60 more bp total over two hits, but that isn'y guarenteed.
However when you are facing gengar, trying to wall a 90bp attack is much easier than trying to get lucky against a 120bp one as the pressure is on the defender, not gengar.
If aura sphere was added, everyone would use it so gengar would get technically weaker
It's a weird concept
What if Cryogonal gained 70 bases point in Def and his type became Ice/Ghost?
PS: 70 (Max 344)
Atk: 50 (Max 218)
Def: 30+70 (Max 328)
SAtk: 95 (Max 317)
SDef: 135 (Max 405)
Speed: 105 (Max 339)
Cryogonal @ Leftovers ICE/GHOST TYPE
Trait: Levitate
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SDef
Calm Nature (+SDef, -Atk)
- Recover
- Rapid Spin
- Ice Beam
- Toxic / Magic Coat
Cryogonal is one of the few Spinner with Recovery move different than Rest. And if his new typing became Ice Ghost he can also became an antispinner.
So what do you think will happen?
PS: 70 (Max 344)
Atk: 50 (Max 218)
Def: 30+70 (Max 328)
SAtk: 95 (Max 317)
SDef: 135 (Max 405)
Speed: 105 (Max 339)
Cryogonal @ Leftovers ICE/GHOST TYPE
Trait: Levitate
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SDef
Calm Nature (+SDef, -Atk)
- Recover
- Rapid Spin
- Ice Beam
- Toxic / Magic Coat
Cryogonal is one of the few Spinner with Recovery move different than Rest. And if his new typing became Ice Ghost he can also became an antispinner.
So what do you think will happen?
I don't think that this would helpt it one bit. An additional two weaknesses to common special attacks in low tiers, Dark and Ghost, in addition to being totally and completely anihilated by Pursuit (even Reflect can't save it) is not worth it for being immune to Fighting attacks (Cryogonal cannot take on physical attackers anyway and most special Pokemon use Fighting moves for coverage, which Cryogonal takes pretty comfortably) and being able to spinblock, as Kabutops, the best spinner in RU, laughs at Cryogonal. A secondary typing that would actually help it would be Poison, making it immune to Toxic (a common way to cripple it on defensive Pokemon), and a complete counter to special Sceptile, Tangrowth, Rotom-C, and Accelgor, while not losing against anything it didn't before (most Psychic Pokemon use Psyshock in RU, which already OHKO/2HKOes Cryogonal.What if Cryogonal gained 70 bases point in Def and his type became Ice/Ghost?
PS: 70 (Max 344)
Atk: 50 (Max 218)
Def: 30+70 (Max 328)
SAtk: 95 (Max 317)
SDef: 135 (Max 405)
Speed: 105 (Max 339)
Cryogonal @ Leftovers ICE/GHOST TYPE
Trait: Levitate
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SDef
Calm Nature (+SDef, -Atk)
- Recover
- Rapid Spin
- Ice Beam
- Toxic / Magic Coat
Cryogonal is one of the few Spinner with Recovery move different than Rest. And if his new typing became Ice Ghost he can also became an antispinner.
So what do you think will happen?
But anyway, this is a OU thread, and no matter what secondary typing Cryogonal got in 5th gen, i don't think it would be OU viable. Scizor and Tyranitar are the bane of Cryogonal, and they are able to OHKO it even if it resists Pursuit (Bullet Punch and Stone Edge respectively). That pitiful physical bulk makes it totally unusable in OU, where really good Pursuit users reside.
But, the typing that will have the best chance (a very small one) at making Cryogonal OU viable would be Ice / Fighting. Focus Blast would be able to OHKO Tyranitar with investment, and you could actually switch out from Scizor once (Pursuit vs switching 248 HP / 168 Def Cryogonal: 35.56 - 41.98%). Also, it would make Cryogonal SR neutral, an awesome trait for a spinner. Finally, Ice + Fighting provide really good coverage, meaning that a set of Rapid Spin + Recover + dual STABs would have everything it needs. But still, it would be a mediocre spinner that can't get past the best spinblocker in OU, Jellicent, but we already have a common spinner that can't do shit to Jellicent in OU too (Forretress), so Ice / Fighting Cryogonal could find some use maybe.
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What If Recover became a universal TM like Hidden Power or Toxic?
This make sense because all living things have the ability to heal themselves if they get hurt, so wouldn't it make sense if they all got recover?
This would affect OU a lot. Defensive teams could use pokemon they have always wanted, and pokes like ferrothorn and heatran would get recovery, improving their defensive sets by a lot.
So what do you guys think?
This make sense because all living things have the ability to heal themselves if they get hurt, so wouldn't it make sense if they all got recover?
This would affect OU a lot. Defensive teams could use pokemon they have always wanted, and pokes like ferrothorn and heatran would get recovery, improving their defensive sets by a lot.
So what do you guys think?
It wouldn't be Ledian. Are we not talking about realistic changes here?
Anyway, Recover would be immense on things like Ferrothorn and Heatran, it really is the only thing holding them back from being top, top threats (besides the 4x weaknesses). Also, an honourable mention to Politoed which would be awesome.
Anyway, Recover would be immense on things like Ferrothorn and Heatran, it really is the only thing holding them back from being top, top threats (besides the 4x weaknesses). Also, an honourable mention to Politoed which would be awesome.
They have stated many times that stat changing should not count as theorymons because the only way a pokemon is going to get its stats raised is through a mega evolution ( and I doubt a mega evo would raise 35 attack to 100 ).
But anyway, Ledian would still be unviable because of stealth rock chipping away at half its health. And also, it would be easily revenge killed because mach punch doesnt have stab and has horrible physical bulk.
Seriously, I doubt gamefreak would ever give Ledian these stats.
Yeah Politoed would be cool, and Tyranitar would be an even better trapper.
Any other thoughts on Recover being a universal TM?
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BurningMan
fueled by beer
Difficult to say unless you specify exactly what would get it through TM, most things that get Recover are psychic types so flavour wise Pokemon like Tar, Ferro, Heatran and Politoed propably wouldn't get it and i can't think of any Pokemon where Recover would fit flavour wise that don't already get it outside of some defensive Ghosts that propably wouldn't get that much better, because Jellicent is still outclasss them (Water immunity is just huge in the current metagame.). The only things in OU that would have a chance to get it are propably Metagross and Jirachi (maybe Rotom, but that is more wishful thinking than anything else) and Jirachi already has Wish and Metagross has simply no use for recover.
He means universal TM, like Hidden power or toxic-esque
Basically, any pokemon that can learn TMs learns it.
Yea I mean everything that can learn TMS gets it. And its kinda far-fetch'd but if you get a cut it will eventually heal, which is a loose connection to recover.
Since all pokes are alive (in the game) I think they should all get them. Sucks wobuffet can't learn TMs, It would like recover.
What if Lapras had Drizzle?
it would be OU and probably used over politoed
Hmm this thread has started getting really pointless, the last two pages have been mostly bad and totally unrealistic suggestions that don't even take into account the purpose of this thread. Three ways to solve this are stricter moderation, stricter rules, or PM theorymon ideas to Chou and he approves whatever he finds appropriate.
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MikeDawg
Banned deucer.
What if Hydreigon got Dragon Dance?
Hydreigon, like Kyurem-B, is one of the slower dragons that is not graced with Dragon Dance. While it certainly specializes in special attacking, it still has a very respectable base 105 attack. This, combined with the ability to run adamant and its fantastic coverage, has the potential to make it into the surprise Dragon Dancer that Latios wishes it could be. Here's the possible set:
Sporting both much higher attack and much better coverage than Latios, Hydreigon manages to turn the DDios gimmick into a major threat! Given how easily Hydreigon forces switches, setting up a Dragon Dance should be no problem. That's not all, though. After the opponent switches in their Heatran/Blissey/Jirachi to tank the likely Draco Meteor, they will be forced to either switch out again or risk a potential 1hko, giving opportunity for either more set up or major momentum. Here's a few calcs:
252+ Atk Life Orb Hydreigon Outrage vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Landorus-T: 82.81 - 97.5%
+1 252+ Atk Life Orb Hydreigon Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 108 Def Jirachi: 89.35 - 105.44%
+1 252+ Atk Life Orb Hydreigon Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Tyranitar: 91.33 - 108.16%
+1 252+ Atk Life Orb Hydreigon Earthquake vs. 164 HP / 0 Def Metagross: 94.15 - 111.11%
As you can see, Hydreigon is packing quite a punch! With Dragon Dance, Hydreigon can combine the utility of wallbreaking with that of sweeping, increasing not only its concrete viability but also the variety of its roles.
The slashes vary depending on what you want out of Hydreigon. Fire Blast is generally superior to Draco Meteor unless you offer Magnezone support, in which case Draco Meteor is a very welcome and powerful alternative to Outrage. Outrage is preferred for power, but Dragon Claw is useful in the event that you want to take full advantage of Dragon Dance's surprise factor: you don't have to risk getting locked into a Blissey, for example, only to have the opponent switch to Skarmory.
Dragon Dance Hydreigon seems to be outclassed by Salamence, which it is on paper, but in reality Hydreigon has a few quirks to make it the better option. The most obvious is the surprise factor. The appeal of a special set, compounded with Hydreigon's current unpredictability, allows for plenty more set-up opportunities. Hydreigon's inclination to run Adamant gives it very similar power to the usually speed-boosting Salamence. Hydreigon has the opportunity to run a wide variety of coverage moves such as Superpower and Dark Pulse/Crunch that give it a possible niche. Hydreigon's typing gives it more setup opportunities and more general bulk (Mamoswine's Life Orb Ice Shard only does around 65%); the Stealth Rock neutrality is also nice.
So, would Dragon Dance finally give Hydreigon a proper shot in OU, or would it still remain as the "outclassed" Dragon?
Hydreigon, like Kyurem-B, is one of the slower dragons that is not graced with Dragon Dance. While it certainly specializes in special attacking, it still has a very respectable base 105 attack. This, combined with the ability to run adamant and its fantastic coverage, has the potential to make it into the surprise Dragon Dancer that Latios wishes it could be. Here's the possible set:
Hydreigon @ Life Orb
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 Atk / 252 Spd / 4 SAtk
Naughty Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Fire Blast/Draco Meteor
- Earthquake
- Outrage/Dragon Claw
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 Atk / 252 Spd / 4 SAtk
Naughty Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Fire Blast/Draco Meteor
- Earthquake
- Outrage/Dragon Claw
Sporting both much higher attack and much better coverage than Latios, Hydreigon manages to turn the DDios gimmick into a major threat! Given how easily Hydreigon forces switches, setting up a Dragon Dance should be no problem. That's not all, though. After the opponent switches in their Heatran/Blissey/Jirachi to tank the likely Draco Meteor, they will be forced to either switch out again or risk a potential 1hko, giving opportunity for either more set up or major momentum. Here's a few calcs:
252+ Atk Life Orb Hydreigon Outrage vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Landorus-T: 82.81 - 97.5%
+1 252+ Atk Life Orb Hydreigon Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 108 Def Jirachi: 89.35 - 105.44%
+1 252+ Atk Life Orb Hydreigon Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Tyranitar: 91.33 - 108.16%
+1 252+ Atk Life Orb Hydreigon Earthquake vs. 164 HP / 0 Def Metagross: 94.15 - 111.11%
As you can see, Hydreigon is packing quite a punch! With Dragon Dance, Hydreigon can combine the utility of wallbreaking with that of sweeping, increasing not only its concrete viability but also the variety of its roles.
The slashes vary depending on what you want out of Hydreigon. Fire Blast is generally superior to Draco Meteor unless you offer Magnezone support, in which case Draco Meteor is a very welcome and powerful alternative to Outrage. Outrage is preferred for power, but Dragon Claw is useful in the event that you want to take full advantage of Dragon Dance's surprise factor: you don't have to risk getting locked into a Blissey, for example, only to have the opponent switch to Skarmory.
Dragon Dance Hydreigon seems to be outclassed by Salamence, which it is on paper, but in reality Hydreigon has a few quirks to make it the better option. The most obvious is the surprise factor. The appeal of a special set, compounded with Hydreigon's current unpredictability, allows for plenty more set-up opportunities. Hydreigon's inclination to run Adamant gives it very similar power to the usually speed-boosting Salamence. Hydreigon has the opportunity to run a wide variety of coverage moves such as Superpower and Dark Pulse/Crunch that give it a possible niche. Hydreigon's typing gives it more setup opportunities and more general bulk (Mamoswine's Life Orb Ice Shard only does around 65%); the Stealth Rock neutrality is also nice.
So, would Dragon Dance finally give Hydreigon a proper shot in OU, or would it still remain as the "outclassed" Dragon?
I also agree that the quality of the posts in this thread have decreased dramatically-- and I'm not sure how it should be handled. There also seems to be little interest in my testing/ranking idea. I'll be considering on ways to improve the theorymon thread; but ultimate I think this (and other would-be major projects in OU) will probably get swept aside with XY coming out. After sufficient research is done on XY, be sure we'll have a new theorymon thread over there-- hopefully one with a format that can encourage better posts.
(also sorry guys, I haven't been able to see this thread over the last few days since my permissions got messed up when I was modded for UT, and I didn't realize it was just me).
We already talked about Drought Arcanine. Drizzle Milotic does sound a bit like a rain form of Hippowdon, if that makes any sense.
What if Hyper Beam worked the same way as in Gen1?
In gen1, HB didn't recharge if you get a KO. So ...
@ Life Orb
Adaptability
252 SAtk/252 Spe
Modest
- Agility
- Hyper Beam
- Dark Pulse
- Nasty Plot
Meet Double-booster Porygon-Z. Boasting the ability to launch 300 base power LO-boosted Hyper Beams off a potential 810 special attack, this thing is sure to get you a lot of KOs. You can always chose to run HP Fighting over NP since two turns of setup can be difficult to pull off, and HP Fighting hits Rock-types (outside of sand) and Steel-types (barring Jirachi, Bronzong, Scizor, Forretress and Metagross) decently hard off the bat.Actually, I wrote that to show HP Fighting sux. You can also try Download if running HP Fighting, since it can potentially boost your SpAtk, as opposed to Adaptability only boosting HB.
However, the real fun is in NP. If you can somehow grab that boost, it's gg. And I mean that literally.
SpD Ttar is the only thing that can take a hit, while Breloom can revenge it with Mach Punch, not to mention P-Z's defenses are nothing to write home about so it won't be absolutely unstoppable, but just think about it.
In gen1, HB didn't recharge if you get a KO. So ...
Adaptability
252 SAtk/252 Spe
Modest
- Agility
- Hyper Beam
- Dark Pulse
- Nasty Plot
Meet Double-booster Porygon-Z. Boasting the ability to launch 300 base power LO-boosted Hyper Beams off a potential 810 special attack, this thing is sure to get you a lot of KOs. You can always chose to run HP Fighting over NP since two turns of setup can be difficult to pull off, and HP Fighting hits Rock-types (outside of sand) and Steel-types (barring Jirachi, Bronzong, Scizor, Forretress and Metagross) decently hard off the bat.
However, the real fun is in NP. If you can somehow grab that boost, it's gg. And I mean that literally.
+2 252+ SpA Life Orb Adaptability Porygon-Z Hyper Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Tyranitar in sand: 56.93 - 67.32%
+2 252+ SpA Life Orb Porygon-Z Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Sableye: 78.94 - 93.09%
+2 252+ SpA Life Orb Adaptability Porygon-Z Hyper Beam vs. 180 HP / 0 SpD Tyranitar in sand: 82.9 - 97.66%
+2 252+ SpA Life Orb Adaptability Porygon-Z Hyper Beam vs. 4 HP / 252+ SpD Blissey: 85.73 - 101.22%
+2 252+ SpA Life Orb Adaptability Porygon-Z Hyper Beam vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Heatran: 85.97 - 101.29%
+2 252+ SpA Life Orb Adaptability Porygon-Z Hyper Beam vs. 252 HP / 236+ SpD Jirachi: 86.63 - 101.98%
+2 252+ SpA Life Orb Adaptability Porygon-Z Hyper Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 87.21 - 102.69%
+2 252+ SpA Life Orb Adaptability Porygon-Z Hyper Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Multiscale Dragonite: 89.63 - 105.44%
+2 252+ SpA Life Orb Porygon-Z Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 220+ SpD Jellicent: 90.84 - 106.93%
+2 252+ SpA Life Orb Porygon-Z Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Sableye: 78.94 - 93.09%
+2 252+ SpA Life Orb Adaptability Porygon-Z Hyper Beam vs. 180 HP / 0 SpD Tyranitar in sand: 82.9 - 97.66%
+2 252+ SpA Life Orb Adaptability Porygon-Z Hyper Beam vs. 4 HP / 252+ SpD Blissey: 85.73 - 101.22%
+2 252+ SpA Life Orb Adaptability Porygon-Z Hyper Beam vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Heatran: 85.97 - 101.29%
+2 252+ SpA Life Orb Adaptability Porygon-Z Hyper Beam vs. 252 HP / 236+ SpD Jirachi: 86.63 - 101.98%
+2 252+ SpA Life Orb Adaptability Porygon-Z Hyper Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 87.21 - 102.69%
+2 252+ SpA Life Orb Adaptability Porygon-Z Hyper Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Multiscale Dragonite: 89.63 - 105.44%
+2 252+ SpA Life Orb Porygon-Z Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 220+ SpD Jellicent: 90.84 - 106.93%
SpD Ttar is the only thing that can take a hit, while Breloom can revenge it with Mach Punch, not to mention P-Z's defenses are nothing to write home about so it won't be absolutely unstoppable, but just think about it.
Better yet, expand that caveat (if a move lands a killing blow, it doesn't recharge) to ALL 150 BP / 90 ACC moves, such as Giga Impact, Blast Burn, Hydro Cannon, and Frenzy Plant. We would certainly see some more Normal Gem Giga Impact Gyarados, who now have much safer KOs on some of the Pokemon that can live a Normal Gem-boosted Double-Edge, as well as taking away recoil. Still, there's always the danger of something that can live your attack coming in and then you're truly up shit creek, seeing as they now have a free turn to do whatever they damn well please.
That being said, I remember the time I ran Specs-Z with Adaptability Hyper Beam. I OHKO'd someone's defensive Arcanine and he ragequit. Of course, I stopped using it shortly after that game because locking yourself into Hyper Beam is one of the most laughable things you could possibly do, but getting those few OHKOs were pretty funny.
That being said, I remember the time I ran Specs-Z with Adaptability Hyper Beam. I OHKO'd someone's defensive Arcanine and he ragequit. Of course, I stopped using it shortly after that game because locking yourself into Hyper Beam is one of the most laughable things you could possibly do, but getting those few OHKOs were pretty funny.
Slaking says hi. The other moves wouldn't make that much impact, barring Frenzy Plant maybe on Venusaur or Blast Burn on Charizard:
+4 252 SpA Life Orb Venusaur Frenzy Plant vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Latias: 316-372 (86.81 - 102.19%) -- 93.75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+6 252 SpA Life Orb Venusaur Frenzy Plant vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 676-797 (96.02 - 113.21%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Choice Specs Solar Power Charizard Blast Burn vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Latias in sun: 291-342 (79.94 - 93.95%) -- 43.75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
I...don't...even...
Earlier I mentioned what if Smeargle got Simple? I didn't get any answers about that. It would be quite a good Baton Passer, since it can learn every boosting move (with XY around, Simple Geomancy would be stupidly good). Passing doubled Shell Smash, Shift Gear, Quiver Dance, TAIL GLOW, Cotton Guard, Amnesia, etc. would be epic. With +6 Defense, Blissey...just no. Also, you can use it in Ubers to pass doubled Minimizes...yeah this thing is going to be good.