All Gens The "What If" Thread V2 - Topic #11: Heavy Duty Boots in DPP

Bughouse

Like ships in the night, you're passing me by
is a Site Content Manageris a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a CAP Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus
With no rest at all, I have to assume that mons with access to other reliable recovery become pretty indispensable to any team that's not pure offense, so that's Starmie, Blissey, Miltank, Porygon2, Meganium, Exeggutor, Umbreon, Espeon, and even Nidoking/Nidoqueen, among a few others I'm sure I'm forgetting.

However, the existence of such Pokemon doesn't really mean a bulky team is going to be particularly viable. Status becomes incredibly potent with Rest gone, and Heal Bell doesn't really have enough PP to reliably beat Toxic spamming on its own. Any such team likely needs 2 Heal Bellers in Blissey and Miltank in order to stand up to such Toxic spam. In reality, I think these teams are limited and offense rules the day.

The meta is likely very focused around offensive mons, sleep-inducers, toxic, paralysis, and spikes. Mons like Nidoking and Gengar likely get much better. Faster mons like Espeon, Alakazam, and Jolteon probably become quite a bit better too since they're more likely to be able to clean when things get worn down more easily. I could see BD Charizard being a bit threat, since it's easier to keep mons faster than it paralyzed, with no rest around.

Totally disagree with cookie about Zapdos. I think it probably becomes much better since Lax and even Raikou to some extent become much less reliable checks (Raikou is really not gonna like taking a permanent Thunder para that it can't rest off). Lax is of course still going to be good, just much more predictable and not impossible to whittle down and break through. Zapdos is spikes immune and can run Protect with Leftovers to maintain its health as it forces lots of switches against the usual suspects. I imagine the go to set for Zapdos is now Tbolt/Thunder, HP, Toxic, Protect.

Other Spikes immune mons aside from Zapdos have this same advantage of being able to run Protect and actually keep a good amount of bulk, at least relative to everything else, though I'm not sure how many of them are really threatening enough to be worth it in this more offensive meta. Moltres can probably do its usual Sunny Day shenanigans, along with ProTox, instead of RestTalk.

The absence of Rest also likely means the absence of Sleep Talk, so mons that use Sleep-inducing moves likely become considerably more powerful. Aside from the usual suspects, I think Spore BD Pass Smeargle could be a bit obnoxious, since teams just don't have sleep absorbers anymore, and the nature of the meta might also lead to a decrease in phazers, since you don't need to worry about things like Curse Rest Lax, or Growth Rest Vaporeon, etc.
 

Jorgen

World's Strongest Fairy
is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Past SPL Champion
Everyone's favorite sleepy boy gets put on a timer. This radically alters the landscape of GSC. Both Lax and the Normal resists that check it become much less important in a more "woke" GSC.

It's unclear, as with many things that hamper Snorlax's effectiveness, whether this actually makes things faster- or slower-paced. Instead of opining one way or the other as I normally would, may I offer that perhaps... both would happen? GSC's current metagame is currently a pretty homogeneous soup of "Balance" teams that rely on Spikes + mixed attackers + a sleep talk Snorlax & Electric to glue things together while still pressuring things. Force Snorlax & the Electrics on a timer, weaken this middle ground, and suddenly the marginal gains of going full offense focus (think 5 exploders or a BP chain) or full defense focus (think Blissey/Starmie/Meganium/Umbreon stalls) are more worthwhile.

Writing all that out, I guess my prediction assumes that Spikes become less potent? Perhaps seen more as a way for stalls to win long-term against other stalls, and less as a way to generate offense in the middle-game? It's hard to imagine Spikes-as-offense falling off completely given just how good it is in the current metagame. I'd have to imagine "Balance" lives on, but with some different standard bearers (e.g., Porygon2) and an equilibrium strategy that favors greater offensive/defensive specialization more often.

Could be interesting. At the same time, "full-defense" being a greater fraction of teams means even more 700+ turn games (even if there are more sub-20 turn games to go with it). Plus, I feel like there's an inefficiency in how people think: all else being equal, losing in 700+ turns is perceived as less humiliating than losing in 20 or fewer turns. So I imagine such a metagame, in practice, is more defensive than the current one on average, albeit with a larger spread about that average.
 
Without Rest Snorlax and Zapdos to absorb Toxic, Blissey is probably on every team. I'd say the dominant strategy is probably Toxic + Spikes with Blissey + Moonlight Umbreon + Ghost. I'm not sure what kind of strategies could be used to beat this. With the huge improvement of sleep moves, I'd imagine most teams would run a Pokemon with Sleep Talk as well.

Sleep probably becomes the most important tool on offense. Toxic immunities would be huge so Nidoking and Gengar stand out. I expect Psychic-types would be used to beat these with Recover and possibly Sleep Talk. So Tox Pursuit Umbreon or Crunch Tar are probably very common alongside these.
 
Skarmory becomes a lot less effective as a wall without its only recovery move which helps teams based around a physically offensive game plan. Baton pass was mentioned but I also think para spreading becomes equally potent. An example team would be something like Starmie, Exeggutor, Miltank, and Zapdos (with T wave) setting up drumlax and marowak for a sweep. One strategy I could see emerging on offensive teams an increase in the use of miracleberry and substitute (something already somewhat common in BP teams). A defensive strategy that’s probably pretty janky but might actually work is using safeguard on Meganium, dragonite, or shuckle.
 

Oglemi

Borf
is a Top Contributoris a Tournament Director Alumnusis a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Researcher Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Top Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis an Administrator Alumnusis a Top Dedicated Tournament Host Alumnus
With Toxic spam you'd probably see some Substitute mons come to the fore a bit. Sub Alaka and something like Sub Primeape sound decently threatening in a Rest-less landscape
 

Typhlito

One Active Dawg
is a Social Media Contributor Alumnusis an Artist Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnus
Excellent responses everyone! Guess that means its time to move on to the next topic. What if Diggersby is in ADV?


This bunny has company in ADV when it comes to its ability Huge Power with Azumaril and Medicham being decent users of the ability and what an ability it is. Huge Power is an ability that doubles the user's attack power which is massive since it turns Diggersby's tiny 56 Attack stat into something threatening. However, what separates it from the other two is its relevant typing and stabs but is it enough for it to be a star in this meta? In this scenario, Diggersby will have access to any move it is capable of learning as long as it exists in ADV. Would new threats rise while old ones fall? You tell me!
 

cookie

my wish like everyone else is to be seen
is a Senior Staff Member Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus
Diggersby can't do much to Skarmory, but it hits everything else pretty hard. Return/Earthquake are strong upgrades to High Jump Kick, as well as having fewer drawbacks.

A CB set with Return/Earthquake/Focus Punch/HP Ghost would hit stuff pretty hard, a bit like a Heracross that can't be revenged by Dugtrio so easily, but still can't really switch into anything.

Swords Dance is pretty interesting: it's immune to Sandstorm damage so a sub/endure + SD set would be a great late-game sweeper, with a curselax like problem: you'd have to forgot one of EQ/Normal/Gengar coverage.

Ground/Normal stabs are great but basically has the same checks as Snorlax, so I don't think it would be particularly broken.
 
Diggersby's biggest asset this gen is probably its utility moves. It has access to Spikes and Knock Off, 2 moves that have extremely limited distribution in ADV. I could see a utility set of Spikes/Return/Knock/EQ being a pretty damn good set. Its ground typing means that it will be able to pivot zapdos tbolts and it can threaten one of the most common spinners, claydol. I could see bold starmie being a more common spinner in a metagame with diggersby, but even then it has to be wary of knock off given the permanent sand in ADV. Overall, I think it will make physical mag offenses a very dangerous play style to come up against.

I think SD sets also have the potential to be great breakers, simply because quick attack makes it harder to revenge with dug, a set of SD/quick attack/eq/return will have the potential to trade teams with mag + suit support.

If I run CB Diggers, I'd probably still run Spikes because its too good a move to pass up on if I have the slot for it.
 

Bughouse

Like ships in the night, you're passing me by
is a Site Content Manageris a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a CAP Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus
Aside from the aforementioned sets, I could see something with Sub Salac w Endeavor EQ and Return/QA/Flail working sort of similarly to SubSalac Swampert. The higher base speed and more threatening stab in Huge Power EQ (potentially CB even) could force more switches and thus give it more opportunities to get a free sub and start the strategy. Once activating Salac as well, the higher base speed really comes into play, since you now outrun Starmie, Dugtrio, Jolteon, and Aero (you can only really Endeavor Aero, but still useful!)

It would however fail against Skarmory and Gengar, which are both a huge advantage for Swampert. Probably not that good of a set but could work?
 

Oglemi

Borf
is a Top Contributoris a Tournament Director Alumnusis a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Researcher Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Top Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis an Administrator Alumnusis a Top Dedicated Tournament Host Alumnus
Diggersby can't do much to Skarmory, but it hits everything else pretty hard. Return/Earthquake are strong upgrades to High Jump Kick, as well as having fewer drawbacks.

A CB set with Return/Earthquake/Focus Punch/HP Ghost would hit stuff pretty hard, a bit like a Heracross that can't be revenged by Dugtrio so easily, but still can't really switch into anything.

Swords Dance is pretty interesting: it's immune to Sandstorm damage so a sub/endure + SD set would be a great late-game sweeper, with a curselax like problem: you'd have to forgot one of EQ/Normal/Gengar coverage.

Ground/Normal stabs are great but basically has the same checks as Snorlax, so I don't think it would be particularly broken.
Any CB set would want Super Fang over Focus Punch imo, it's still basically solely for Skarm except now it's not a bait move that can't just be donked by Protect Swampert and co.



Also IMO Agility has a ton of potential as a late-game cleaner, kind of an Aero on steroids tbh
 

Ununhexium

I closed my eyes and I slipped away...
is a Community Contributoris a Smogon Discord Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Smogon Media Contributoris a Social Media Contributor Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnus
Aside from the aforementioned sets, I could see something with Sub Salac w Endeavor EQ and Return/QA/Flail working sort of similarly to SubSalac Swampert. The higher base speed and more threatening stab in Huge Power EQ (potentially CB even) could force more switches and thus give it more opportunities to get a free sub and start the strategy. Once activating Salac as well, the higher base speed really comes into play, since you now outrun Starmie, Dugtrio, Jolteon, and Aero (you can only really Endeavor Aero, but still useful!)

It would however fail against Skarmory and Gengar, which are both a huge advantage for Swampert. Probably not that good of a set but could work?
Diggersby is also immune to Sandstorm damage which is huge for a Sub + Salac sweeper.

I also think something like Substitute / Swords Dance / Return / Earthquake could be run (similar to something like Heracross but without Sandstorm damage) but again its stopped cold by Gengar and Skarmory, meaning it would definitely need Magneton / Pursuit support. Might be a cool option on Magneton physical offense.
 

Typhlito

One Active Dawg
is a Social Media Contributor Alumnusis an Artist Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnus
Super cool. Feel like Diggersby would have definitely been a really cool addition to the format. Anyway, next up is what if Hreavy Duty Boots was around in DPP?


In a format where stealth rocks made its debut, you would expect there to be a new way to bypass such a game-altering move. The way how it deals damage based on typing really pushed a bunch of pokemon out of favor. Its unfortunate because there are several pokemon that would be much better without having to worry about such a move. So what if that item did exist here? What pokemon would benefit from the addition of Safety Goggles? Would it change the metagame at all? Would it push any current pokemon out because of it? You tell me!
 
Last edited:

Vileman

Actually a Nice Fella
is a Tournament Director Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Former Old Generation Tournament Circuit Champion
UPL Champion
Super cool. Feel like Diggersby would have definitely been a really cool addition to the format. Anyway, next up is what if Safety Goggles was around in DPP?


In a format where stealth rocks made its debut, you would expect there to be a new way to bypass such a game-altering move. The way how it deals damage based on typing really pushed a bunch of pokemon out of favor. Its unfortunate because there are several pokemon that would be much better without having to worry about such a move. So what if that item did exist here? What pokemon would benefit from the addition of Safety Goggles? Would it change the metagame at all? Would it push any current pokemon out because of it? You tell me!
If you want rocks immunity dont you mean the boots instead of safety googles?
 
. Anyway, next up is what if Safety Goggles was around in DPP?
In a format where stealth rocks made its debut
???
did you mean hdb?
not a one liner: as for really simple hdb analysis the entire metagame shifts on its head, just like swsh. no longer can you wear stuff down and stuff like idk ape are much easier to play. also setting rocks as a lead wont be as important so offensive leads w/o rocks are better (sorry i dont know dpp that well!)
 
The lead metagame probably becomes less centralized around SR - there's probably still a lead metagame due to the strength of focus sash but it's much more based on 3 strong attacks + priority rather than leads like aero or SR azelf.

Unfortunately, the rise in boots blissey like we've seen in the SwSh meta probably means mons like boots yanmega don't suddenly become top tier. Some of the mons that benefit the most from boots are bulky zapdos, stallbreaker crobat, and even baton pass togekiss, since they can fit on the balance teams that will likely be the most common team style while being able to make progress against boots walls and provide defensive presence.
 
Ok, so firstly without Teleport I actually think Boots Blissey is not necessarily an auto-fit on balanced teams, as it will suck momentum like nothing else. With its Stealth Rock setting capabilities reduced in potency as well, all it will really do is sit there, take hits, and ToxicToss back.

Infernape I actually think is reasonably unlikely to start spamming Boots. Firstly, the Choiced, mixed LO and sweeping sets need all the firepower they can get-Infernape hasn't got the stats to muscle through walls unboosted without targeted coverage. There is the Lefties set, which conceivably could run Boots instead, but it does nothing about recoil and sand chip. And the odds of seeing Slack Off+Boots Infernape are low since it would just get hard walled by way too much with only 3 attacks. Other mons are more suited to unboosted U-turn spamming, Infernape needs a Choice Band behind its U-turns.

But I think there's a big difference between Gen 4 Boots and Gen 8 Boots no-one has mentioned yet-Knock Off. In Gen 4, it's a situational 20 BP move rather than the first coverage move you slap on any physical mon and an auto-fit on any Dark-type that gets it. So removing Boots is much harder in Gen 4, which makes Boots-heavy games that much harder to force progress in. Only Clefable, Gliscor, Empoleon and possibly Scizor can hope to use Knock effectively.

There are a few mons I think could gain massively from Boots. Firstly, Staraptor might actually have a shot at not being a BL resident. Dual STAB+Close Combat+U-turn/Roost sounds neat as hell, though it does suffer from Rotom's presence.
Secondly, Articuno and Moltres might have a decent shot at moving up the tiers with their respectable bulk and power. Zapdos would be a monstrous mon to try and take down without incurring huge damage, and can fully use its U-turn access as well.
Finally, a couple of Ice types. Weavile becomes much less strenuous to fit on a team and just has to worry about the abundance of Steels and competition from Tyranitar. Perhaps it could use Brick Break or Focus Punch to sort that issue out with its blazing speed. Abombasnow becomes somewhat vaguely playable with Boots on for any team that doesn't like the idea of Steels not being chipped by weather, or just wants to switch into Swampert for free, fire off a Blizzard and pray for a freeze.
 
Last edited:
Hey guys! Welcome to the new and improved What if thread!
Old thread


Thanks Cretacerus for the great banner!

Have you ever considered how your different RBY would be with Heal Bell or ADV with U-turn? How about maybe DPP with an air balloon? If you haven't, prepare to have your horizons of what is possible expanded! Are these changes fun and interesting addition to the format or completely game-breaking? That's where you come in to decide! Here we will discuss topics new and old and if an idea becomes popular enough, we may have a tournament featuring the mechanic! I will try to limit topics to ideas that can be potentially made into a tournament on showdown but I may still bring up "unplayable" topics if the idea is interesting enough.

The topic will change about twice a week or so so stay tuned!

Topic #1: Roost in RBY
Topic #2: No Hidden Power in GSC
Topic #3: Nasty Plot in ADV
Topic #4: Hydreigon in DPP
Topic #5: Toxapex Line in BW
Topic #6: Z-Moves in ORAS
Topic #7: Teleport in SM
Topic #8: Regice + Slaking in RBY
Topic #9: No Rest in GSC
Topic #10: Diggersby in ADV
Topic #11: Heavy Duty Boots in DPP
toxapex would be on sand teams since it's the perfect keldeo counter
 
Sorry but couldn't we have something more interesting for a GSC what if? Every other gen gets something more and the only "what if" we can come up with for GSC is no Rest and no Hidden Power. Among all these choices I'd like to add that this is the only tier with something being taken away from it rather than added to it but it doesn't feel as if we are reaching outside of the boundaries that the tier has to offer. We'd still fundamentally have the same game.
This comes across as a sort of lack of inventive from a certain perspective. It's not a judgement towards whoever came up with the idea. It's just to say that I believe RoA could do better and already has. I recall last year that GSC's"what if" was a lot more interesting "What if GSC had gen4 evolutions (Mamoswine, Weavile, Electevire etc.) or "What if GSC had choice band" (I could be mistaken about the last part).
 
Last edited:
Hard to say. Dnite really enjoys Lum. Nape needs Orb. Jirachi doesnt care about rocks. Maybe Bold Starmie would run it for an easier time spinning?
Yanmega might break out of BL, but the cost to its power would be immense. I think this wouldnt have much impact in OU, since everything has other items they would rather run, but in UU, it would be quite the threat.
 

Users Who Are Viewing This Thread (Users: 1, Guests: 0)

Top