All Gens The "What If" Thread V2 - Topic #11: Heavy Duty Boots in DPP

[Typhlito]

Lets move on then. How about if Hydreigon existed in DPP?

Hydreigon is a dark/dragon type from bw that can be quite the powerhouse against the right team. However a few things always held it back from being a star in future gens. However is that also the case here in DPP? How would the metagame adjust to this Pokemon? Would it only be okay or an absolute beast? Would old threats fall while new ones rise in response? You tell me!

And yes assume he has access to his bw moveset here as long as the move exists in DPP.

 

[spookysocialist]

Hydreigon would probably be uber in DPP. In a direct comparison to Salamence, while it loses a very crucial point of speed, relying on speed ties is never fun. Hydreigon in exchange gets an extra 20 spat to fire off draco meteors and fire blasts, while still having superpower for blissey. Levitate gives it switch in opportunities and it can either run roost in it's last slot to offset chip or earth power to wreck heatran without having to superpower (although heatran can't do much to you without the very meh dragon pulse). While probably not as good as salamence overall due to lack of boosting speed it still cleaves through stall and balance and it can tear through it's checks/counters with one good prediction, so I'd say it would probably go to uber around the time mence did.

Edit: I was going to make a post about how Hydreigon is also possibly the #1 VGC pokemon, but sadly it is not eligible for gen4 VGC without an event since it does not evolve until level 64. It would at least be a top tier doubles mon, resisting surf, discharge and immune to EQ while also being one of two non flying type tailwind setters (or the only one if Latias is banned, don't know if doubles has latias legal).

 

[Empress Mobile]

Are we using its Gen 5 learnset? The moves that existed in gen 4, of course.

I am on the fence as to whether it would be too much for OU. I agree with many of the points made by spookysocialist, but I do feel Hydreigon is much more dependent upon its coverage moves to be successful. Furthermore, it's much more vulnerable to priority moves like Mach Punch and Vacuum Wave from Breloom, Infernape and Lucario, while maintaining Mence's vulnerability to Ice Shard from Weavile or Mamoswine. U-Turn's from Scarf Flygon and Jirachi would give it a really tough time. If it lacks a Fighting type move, then it's setup fodder for Empoleon and walled endlessly by Blissey and Tyranitar. Mixed sets could alleviate this to a degree but will likely force a Hasty or Naive nature which only makes the priority issue worse. And without a speed boosting move (assuming gen5 learnset) it's easily revenge killed by Jolteon, Raikou, scarf Magnezone, etc., all of which would be easy pickings for a +1 Mence. I think it's got an unfavorable matchup against Vaporeon and Suicune as well, which could be overwhelmed by Mence.

Still, it's hard to deny it would have a huge impact on the tier. If it does stay in the tier, I imagine Scarf Heracross would be considerably better. Hydreigon has a great matchup against Rotom-A, potentially combating attempts to suffocate Rapid Spin and possibly breathing new life into niche choices that rely on RS to thrive like Moltres or Yanmega. It can threaten Latias and Starmie on the switch, though they both outspend and threaten massive damage in return.

Ultimately I think it'd be a huge threat. I think its speed tier is unfortunate and keeps it from threatening many of the things it would normally want to push damage on.

Edit: On further reflection I think scarf could be a good set for it, alleviating its matchup against Jolteon, Starmie, Gengar, Raikou, Latias, etc. It can force switches for effortless U-Turns.

 

[Hipmonlee]

It's definitely uber lol.

Nothing can switch in, it cant be trapped or pursuited, it can roost, it can taunt, it can uturn to dugtrio, mostly hazards immune. Stall is just not viable against it.

The only thing I can think is like, because rotom is going to be shitty in a metagame with hydreigon, you might be able to keep hazards away, so something like a specially defensive Togekiss might check it? Struggling to come up with a better option tbh.

 

[Oglemi]

Hydreigon doesn't have any counters in BW as it is, and pickings are even slimmer in DPP. If we assume Superpower and Fire Blast will be the mainstay coverage moves on it, SpD Heatran is about your most reliable switch in, but it auto-loses to Earth Power so it's hard to say how well it'd actually do in the long run. SpD Hippowdon is a pretty good general check to Scarf Hydreigon and can emergency check most other sets lacking Surf, but it can't switch in, especially into LO or Specs.

Most likely we would see a shift to more offensive teams and an erasure of the current Clefable/Jirachi teams that are dominating the meta. Once the meta shifts more offensively, Hydreigon looks a bit weaker. In this sense, Hydreigon would remind me a lot of BW RU Nidoqueen. Its somewhat middling speed means that it's actually comparably easy to revenge kill, especially with stuff like Latias and Infernape, but it's a crapshoot to deal with once it's in, it's almost impossible to punish it from switching in and out, and you'd have almost no reason to not run one yourself considering you 2HKO most of the game with DMeteor/Superpower/Fire Blast/Dark Pulse. Whether or not it'd be banned would depend largely on if the meta was stable or not, or if it really was a coinflip to deal with in the way mence was.

 

[Bughouse]

As in BW, it's going to punish bulkier builds and (comparatively) struggle with more offensive builds since its speed tier just isn't quite good enough.

The most obvious set is a LO mixed breaker, which compares to Infernape or Dragonite. It's probably better than either in general, but there are still things those mons do that Hydreigon can't.

I'd also be interested in what a Taunt Roost stallbreaker set could do. It would certainly handle several mons on stall better than for example Gliscor does.

Finally, I think a choice specs nuke with U-Turn as the 4th filler move is pretty interesting as well, considering it hits a little bit harder than Specs Latias (a lot harder if you also go Modest) which is already a decent pick, and it will be able to do cheesy shit with U-Turn that Lati cannot. It also can't be pursuit trapped after the sac to Draco Meteor drop like Lati can.

All in all, it would probably be a top 10 mon (Dragonite/Infernape/Latias/Gliscor are all already in that general vicinity and I think Hydrei would be better than each of them at particular roles) and would force the meta to become faster. In a modern tiering system, the way Hydreigon would likely invalidate bulky teams would probably result in it being banned. For DPP standards at the time, I'm not sure. The metagame was generally more offensive when it was the current gen and stall teams are more of a modern resurgence. I don't know that it would have gotten the axe then.

 

[BKC]

stall was not only popular but even dominant in current gen dpp, while salamence was around, no less. the taylor-inspired scarftar/forry/gyara style was the most prominent, but ew/gouki's double spin and zak91's 5 spike immune team were also really successful. hell even lady bug's hail. I think hyd definitely would've gotten axed during current gen. if anything, today's more aggressive brands of stall would deal with hyd more effectively.

I don't think rotom would be much worse. ttar/tran/clef are much bigger thorns in its side than hyd (who is not exactly a perfect rotom switch, willowisp being the main but definitely not the only reason - hp ice and sub are already popular) and rotom still manages to thrive.

bulky latias would be defensive teams' best interim defensive-offensive measure much like it was against mixmence (of course without the possibility of switching into a dragon dance) since you can't go pure defense against every hyd set, though there are exceptions against a few (most prominent example being that taunt hyd needs help against spdef jirachi/bronzong - tauntwisp gar sounds like a great partner). you'd also see ice beam become used a lot more as the fourth move on bulky starmie.

 

[Typhlito]

Before I post the next topic, I'm curious. If it did end up being sent to ubers, would it do decently there or would it get outclassed by the pokemon like salamence and garchomp in that tier?

 

[BKC]

it would definitely be a good choice scarfer. it's held back a bit by its sub-palkia speed but it's got a ton of great traits:

• (toxic) spikes immunity. no other scarfer is spikes immune. (I guess shaymin-s, but it's sr weak and nowhere near the best skymin set.)
• u-turn.
• still more than fast enough to outpace scarf kyogre/dialga and revenge kill dd rayquaza.
• reliably revenge kills mewtwo thanks to stab dark pulse.
• while weakened draco meteors would get pp stalled, locking into dark/dragon pulse means wobb can't do anything to it, since hydreigon is immune to mirror coat.
• dark resist; not only does this let it pivot into darkrai's dark pulse, it prevents it from getting pursuited by scizor/ttar.

life orb and specs sets might also be good. solid speed tier, can chase out choiced water/electric moves and get the jump on the base 90s, especially with some riskier switches (such as groudon/gira-o earthquake) that allow it to launch that fearsome draco meteor in return. the (t)spikes immunity is incredible on a wallbreaker, as is taunt + roost for blissey and stab dark pulse for lugia.

 

[zf]

it would definitely be a good choice scarfer. it's held back a bit by its sub-palkia speed but it's got a ton of great traits:

• (toxic) spikes immunity. no other scarfer is spikes immune. (I guess shaymin-s, but it's sr weak and nowhere near the best skymin set.)
• u-turn.
• still more than fast enough to outpace scarf kyogre/dialga and revenge kill dd rayquaza.
• reliably revenge kills mewtwo thanks to stab dark pulse.
• while weakened draco meteors would get pp stalled, locking into dark/dragon pulse means wobb can't do anything to it, since hydreigon is immune to mirror coat.
• dark resist; not only does this let it pivot into darkrai's dark pulse, it prevents it from getting pursuited by scizor/ttar.

life orb and specs sets might also be good. solid speed tier, can chase out choiced water/electric moves and get the jump on the base 90s, especially with some riskier switches (such as groudon/gira-o earthquake) that allow it to launch that fearsome draco meteor in return. the (t)spikes immunity is incredible on a wallbreaker, as is taunt + roost for blissey and stab dark pulse for lugia.

Agree with all of these points but Hydrei falls much short of the mark since Farceus is now standard. Fightceus, Steelceus, Ghostceus, and EKiller are the most prevalent formes and Hydrei matches up poorly versus 3/4 of them - hell it even struggles to break Ghostceus once it nabs a CM. Still might be an alright scarfer thanks to its immunities but it really struggles against any Arc forme.

In Pre-Arceus DPP aka Real DPP Ubers, Hydreigon would rock

 

[Typhlito]

Alright good to know. On to the next one then. How about if we added the Toxapex line to BW?

Toxapex is a pokemon that can be hard to break in the newer generations due to it having access to regenerator, recover, scald and many other support moves. However, how would it do in a format where its poison typing is not quite as strong? In this scenario, both Toxapex and Mareanie would be added in. They will have access to all moves they can learn in the current-gen except for moves that dont exist in BW such as baneful bunker. Would it be a strong addition to the format or will it get overpowered by the threats currently there? You tell me!

 

[Kurowlet]

Toxapex might struggle to find a team slot. On rain, it competes with the almost staple Tentacruel. Tentacruel's rapid spin and faster, more powerful scald are difficult advantages to give up. Toxapex itself is also vulnerable to spikes and adding too many grounded mons necessitates a spinner, further limiting the teams Toxapex might find itself on. It could find a home on balanced sands, but even here it doesn't appreciate sand chip and without rain boosting the power of scald, Thundurus-T is free to set up substitutes and even Gliscor can freely switch in and stall you out of scalds.

Toxapex also doesn't particularly enjoy the current meta. Against magic guard sand, it can only threaten Alakazam and Reuniclus with a weak knock off. Breloom is used on sand and rain and after proccing its toxic orb, uses Toxapex as substitute bait. Toxic spikes only annoys about seven of the S through A mons on the viability rankings and is absorbed by Tentacruel. No toxic spikes leaves you with nothing to do on free turns except a predictable double switch or trying to catch the incoming threat with scald/knock/toxic. The above threats aren't scared by any move you choose.

The biggest change to the metagame if Toxapex became common would be Keldeo losing some viability, particularly its Specs set. I don't think Specs Keldeo would be as bad as the current generations with Toxapex. In BW, the higher hydro pump and hidden power bp, along with much more regular hazard and sand damage/rain water boost would give Specs Keldeo a chance of breaking past Toxapex. Jellicent competes in this role of Specs Keldeo counter, but is forced to switch out if it eats a super effective hidden power and has a much harder time recovering the damage due to no regenerator.

Another change would be the introduction of a pokemon that could very viably run haze. Volcarona would suffer heavily as haze Toxapex puts an end to any chance of a sweep. Sub dd roost Dragonite with dragon claw as coverage would be stalled out by Toxapex. Nasty pass Celebi teams might run psychic on their Celebi to dissuade Toxapex from switching directly in. They'd also have to find a newer receiver as choice scarf Keldeo can't sweep past a Toxapex.

Overall, I think Toxapex would be a decent addition, but would struggle more than in modern generations due to a hostile meta.

 

[Ortheore]

Interesting. As mentioned above, Tenta is far better in terms of playing for hazards, which holds true in true BW2 (aka ubers). So in order to truly make use of it, you need to capitalise on its superior durability to leverage it as a defensive threat. Unfortunately, I don't think it has a great deal going for it in that regard, as its typing doesn't make it a particularly great check to very many things. It can potentially Haze CM Arc, which is nice, but even then +1 0 SPA Arc Judgment deals 41-49% (assuming max/max+ for Tox), which spells trouble for Tox once hazards start to come into play. It can sponge weaker Draco Meteors, and is actually pretty damn solid against Genesect, but otherwise there aren't many threats that it does particularly well at walling. It can ofc exploit opposing support mons, but Tenta also does that pretty well while also threatening to Spin.

In conclusion it would be viable, but I have doubts about it being particularly strong

 

[Eo Ut Mortus]

Toxapex would be great; it'd be the best pivot against the current iteration of Latios, and even if Psychic/shock resurges, you can afford to run Payapa thanks to Regenerator. It's pretty much just a better version of Amoonguss; even with an Electric weakness, it still sits on Rotom-Wash as it does in later gens, and if you really want to, you can tailor your set/spread to beat Breloom (Iron Defense/Gastro Acid).

Although we all know how broken Regenerator is, Merciless is kind of appealing in a gen where crits are still 2x and the power level is low enough to allow you to get away with it.

0 SpA Toxapex Venoshock (130 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Breloom on a critical hit: 336-396 (103.7 - 122.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
0 SpA Toxapex Scald vs. 244 HP / 0 SpD Gliscor on a critical hit: 270-318 (76.7 - 90.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Poison Heal
252+ SpA Poison Gem Toxapex Venoshock (130 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Reuniclus on a critical hit: 459-540 (108.2 - 127.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

 

[BKC]

payapa pex would also help against the inevitable psychic gem volcarona that would pop up, though losing health in sand (where pex seems best) seems ugly, especially with 12% burn (which is a nuisance but overall is a weapon for pex more than it is against it), so I think it'd be more a fringe option. gastro acid would be excellent, ruining not just breloom but also the magic guard psychics and gliscor. knock off is incredibly irritating.

pex being a better version of amoonguss, as eo mentioned, can also be seen in how it completely dominates keldeo and doesn't care at all for pursuit. even moong had to be careful of stronger ones at low health.

the trio of offensive grounds, chomp/lando/exca, become even better. heatran doesn't care for that, but it loves that pex can't handle it at all. maybe zam starts to run recover. cm reun has to run a ton of speed creep to beat it - maybe it starts running life orb more often (which it already sometimes does, helping against other reun, but can still get knocked off by pex) or takes a cue from zam and also runs an offensive recover set. keld would primarily run lefties scald sets. protect would still be great, but subcm would probably be decent as well - I haven't done the math but I imagine that with pex losing health from burn then keld would stand a decent chance at outstalling its hazes.

 

[Triangles]

Toxapex in BW would be an evil bastard. Thank you for coming to my TED talk.

 

[Bughouse]

It's not even just that Pex has better supportive options than Amoonguss (now that Spore is gone). Recover is infinitely more reliable recovery than Amoonguss's Synthesis in this weather-dominated metagame. It's a lot harder to gradually wear down Pex over a game than it is Amoonguss. Closer in terms of long term annoyance to Slowking/bro, except not pursuit weak.

 

[mad dawg]

Slowking/bro also are toxic weak. I think the poison typing goes a far way for sand balance teams, in terms of toxic immunity and soaking t spikes. Also would be interested in eject button shenanigans for trapping, Specs psychic ohkos but you're still opening yourself up to the hard ttar.

 

[Typhlito]

Very cool. Moving to the next topic, what if Z Moves existed in ORAS alongside Mega evolutions?

So Z moves are basically one-time-use moves that can deal massive damage to their target. Its also a move that can be used by any pokemon unlike the lucky few blessed with their Megas. These 2 mechanics were kept apart but what if they were included together? Would certain pokemon make great use of this move? Would mega pokemon have a hard time dealing with this? Would new threats rise while old ones fall? You tell me!

Edit: And yes please assume pokemon must hold their mega stones to mega except for Mega Rayquaza since it is the only pokemon that ignores this rule.

 

[Bughouse]

So - I'm assuming this works like Mega Rayquaza where you're just free to Mega Evolve without the stone and therefore you can hold another item instead, and in this case it's the Z Crystal, something even GF was smart enough to avoid allowing on Mega Rayquaza (I mean we still had to ban mega ray anyway, but geez).

I'll get the obvious stuff out of the way first and I don't really want to theorymon beyond that. The mega and z move user would pretty much always be the same mon. I can't see any scenario in which this combo isn't absurdly broken. Either the combination gets banned or z moves get banned, period. But this metagame presumably also tons more problems than normal if Megas can be used with items, even if it's not the z crystal. Can you honestly imagine the raw power added by LO to most offensive megas or adding the bulk of lefties to Mega Slowbro, etc. would be remotely ok? Lots of stuff is getting banned.

 

[Blitz]

P sure he means Megas and Z-Moves co-existing with one another ala Gen 7, except its ORAS instead, which gets rid of certain threats and moves to bolster with the Z-Crystals.

EDIT: So this post isn't so barren, I guess a candidate that would love this would be Talonflame, as having a priority Supersonic Skystrike that can be used at any moment, whether it's after Rocks or an SD, is kinda scary to think about. It would also probably benefit from the increased usage of Z-Hyper Beam Serp and Z-Anything Volcarona.

 

[Typhlito]

I'd like to give this until tomorrow to get another opinion or 2 before I start the next one. Otherwise, I'll just move on.

 

[p2]

I suck at theory in situations like this but I think the main winners would be the mons that benefit massively from them in SM. Things like Torn can now weasel past Rotom / Ttar / Heatran / Mgross with almost no effort, I think it would single handedly be the best abuser in ORAS. Volc would benefit a lot too but from a quick glimpse over whats in the tier, it doesn't really need one imo (no pex to z-psy, hp ground cant be z'd) a nuke on its stabs would definitely be handy for trying to smack some resists i suppose.

You'd also see some rotom sets using Z again like it did in SM, stuff like Manaphy busting through chansey/resists easier. In general wallbreakers get access to 100% acc coverage or just some superpowered stabs again, think Garchomp/Lando/Dnite/Gengar/Heatran/Bisharp. Think it would be appreciated on stuff like Slowbro/Reuni for reducing knock off damage too

 

[Typhlito]

Alright, that's long enough. Thanks for the responses but its finally time to move on. Now, what if teleport works the was it does in gen 8 in SM?
thanks fnh for the idea

So the way this move works in gen 8 is that it allows you to slow "switch" your pokemon out after almost any action your opponent does. This allows you to potentially gain momentum. In gen 8, Clefable was able to abuse this with great success. However, with a more diverse pool would it be able to still abuse the move to the same effect? Would other pokemon be able to effectively use the move as well? You tell me!

 

[p2]

Going off Gen8 Nat Dex learnsets, all of the following would gain access to Teleport (As low as RU, a couple NU + PU mons do gain access but I don't believe they're worth noting):

There's honestly not a lot but the obvious winners are Clefable, Chansey and Slowbro/King. Clefable we can see just how good it is in SS already but you could probably make a case for it being slightly worse in SM as opposed to SS as it's generally a more offensive meta with more offensive threats. But with that said, Clef can be tailored to doing anything it wants in SM really, it's not forced to run 252+ SDef in this tier. Some ideas I'd imagine would work would be stuff like Clef + Mag to punish steels or pairing it with breakers that longevity (Tapus, Kart, Gren, Vic, Tran, Maw etc)

In regard to the Mag idea, I think it would work very well. It lets Clef put pressure on common counterplay much easier than normal - If you have Tangrowth or Pex out vs Clef then that Clef has a 100% free move here, if you switch out to something like Scizor or Kartana, you run the risk of him Teleporting out to his Scarf Mag and picking them off for free, meanwhile if you switch out to Heatran you run the risk of him getting a Wish off and thats a fully free switchin for his Greninja (as long as tran lacks the right Z) & we all know how dangerous this thing gets when it's kept healthy while your checks are falling apart. Meanwhile if you choose to sit on it with Pex, you cannot stop it from fully healing it's teammates, however Pex is usually safe in this situation provided it has TSpikes but as I mentioned SM has a larger variety of breakers that can fully abuse Pex & Teleport would be insane for enabling this, stuff like Maw doesn't need to risk Scald burns anymore if it wants healed.

I hope that was clear-ish it just started feeling like rambling to me but I was just trying to apply SS Clefable to SM which I do think would be a pretty fucked up addition, it throws traditional counterplay out the window and gives SM's superpowered breakers second lives without resorting to Healing Wish or sketchy normal Wish passing (which opens mons up to getting caught out by random Toxic/burns/para).

As the SS DLC is not out yet, nobody has had a real chance to explore Chansey/Slowbro with Teleport yet, I'd imagine it's going to make things a bit of a shitshow, but I still think Clef is far by the best user