Gen 5 The OU Viability Ranking thread

[Kingler]

@thepostabovespinda
Your post was quite hard to read, with all those grammar errors, and tbh most of it didn't make much sense to me(or any sense at all for that matter). Anyway, Tyranitar for me is S-rank, but I definitely see the A+ rank arguments. It's the most reliable Pursuit trapper, can run a mixed set, CB set, CScarf set, and so on. It essentially has a 670 BST. But where it gets fucked up is its Speed, which just sucks. It has a HORRIBLE typing(like seriously, abomasnow resists Water and Electric, along with Ground, all prominent types in the metagame, though it has more weaknesses). Almost no useful resistances from Ghost- and Psychic-, maybe Fire-type moves but idk. It has a weakness to Water-, Ground- and a 4x weakness to Fighting-type moves. All of these are prominent attacks in the metagame. While its Pursuit trapping skills are arguably the best, most of the stuff it Pursuit traps has ways to get around it. Jellicent will-o's it, and other crap I said in the keldeo suspect test. It has excellent versatility and stuff, and I could understand it being either S- or A+ rank. But A-rank imo is too harsh, like srsly look at dat total bst

 

[Qualna]

I never said it was a good set, though it isn't bad either and it could certainly catch you off guard..

Anyway, I know it should be sent out against pokemon they fare well against, I'm just saying its weaknesses and lacking speed limit that pool of pokemon by a lot.

You're being condescending, insulting my battling skills ( Clearly, you don't know how to use CBand or CSpecs very well. ), etc. without any real basis.

Also, besides being a defensive pokemon, what exactly are the similarities between hippowdon and ferrothorn?

Oh right they both have a h in their names

"I never said it was a good set" Then, don't even bother saying it! This is OU Viability thread, you should say things that defend your argument and not some gimmick.

"certainly catch you off guard" I remember a thread with "gimmick sets to catch opponents off guard" You know, something like Physical Latios, it can catch something off guard, but its usefulness stops there, hence, a gimmick at best.

"insulting my battle skills" I just said you don't know how to use CBand or CSpecs very well, where's the insult there(truth hurts much lol)? Sorry if I sounded harsh, but there's no other reason why you said that(the spammable moves).

Because you said that CBand ttar was not good because it lacks "spammable moves".
The reason why you think CBand Tyranitar isn't S Rank worthy is because you are using it wrong, you don't spam moves there, you use it as a hit-and-run. And this also applies to most other Band or Specs mons.

"Asides from being defensive..." There are many, first, both have great STAB but poor coverage moves. Second, the only thing hindering them from S-Rank is poor speed and exploitable weaknesses. Third, they are reliable hazard setters. Fourth, they demand(most of the time) the same teamates and similar support. And of course, they wall a good chunk of the tier. So, it's unfair for Ferrothorn to NOT get S-Rank when Hippowdon does. There are more similarities, but do I even need to list them all?

I can see why you want Tyranitar down(I doubt it) but I don't see any reason why Hippowdon should be S-Rank.

That's my point from the start: I can't see any reason why Hippowdon is worthy of S-Rank.

Kingler12345 That's why Pokémon like Jellicent are OU staples, they have ways to get around the best Pursuit-trapper, Celebi uses Baton Pass and etc. etc.
I don't see many grammar errors in my post, I may have used poor words, but they're correct in grammar. I also know that Grass offers great resistances, I even said it in my last post. But vulnerability to hazards, mediocre Physical bulk, and seven weaknesses is just too much for Abomasnow. Abomasnow's only niche is to distrupt other weathers, which it does very well, since other weather starters can't switch in, except Air Balloon Ninetales.

Viability also doesn't come from bst, poor Metagross got killed by Explosion's nerf. Yeah, I use Metagross a lot, so I know its shortcomings and strengths.

 

[Stone RG]

"I never said it was a good set" Then, don't even bother saying it! This is OU Viability thread, you should say things that defend your argument and not some gimmick.

"certainly catch you off guard" I remember a thread with "gimmick sets to catch opponents off guard" You know, something like Physical Latios, it can catch something off guard, but its usefulness stops there, hence, a gimmick at best.

"insulting my battle skills" I just said you don't know how to use CBand or CSpecs very well, where's the insult there(truth hurts much lol)? Sorry if I sounded harsh, but there's no other reason why you said that(the spammable moves).

Because you said that CBand ttar was not good because it lacks "spammable moves".
The reason why you think CBand Tyranitar isn't S Rank worthy is because you are using it wrong, you don't spam moves there, you use it as a hit-and-run. And this also applies to most other Band or Specs mons.

"Asides from being defensive..." There are many, first, both have great STAB but poor coverage moves. Second, the only thing hindering them from S-Rank is poor speed and exploitable weaknesses. Third, they are reliable hazard setters. Fourth, they demand(most of the time) the same teamates and similar support. And of course, they wall a good chunk of the tier. So, it's unfair for Ferrothorn to NOT get S-Rank when Hippowdon does. There are more similarities, but do I even need to list them all?

I can see why you want Tyranitar down(I doubt it) but I don't see any reason why Hippowdon should be S-Rank.

That's my point from the start: I can't see any reason why Hippowdon is worthy of S-Rank.

Kingler12345 That's why Pokémon like Jellicent are OU staples, they have ways to get around the best Pursuit-trapper, Celebi uses Baton Pass and etc. etc.
I don't see many grammar errors in my post, I may have used poor words, but they're correct in grammar. I also know that Grass offers great resistances, I even said it in my last post. But vulnerability to hazards, mediocre Physical bulk, and seven weaknesses is just too much for Abomasnow. Abomasnow's only niche is to distrupt other weathers, which it does very well, since other weather starters can't switch in, except Air Balloon Ninetales.

Viability also doesn't come from bst, poor Metagross got killed by Explosion's nerf. Yeah, I use Metagross a lot, so I know its shortcomings and strengths.

Ill just save some time if i respond to this myself, tho idk if i should argue with a guy that thinks weavile is the best pursuit trapper in OU and that contradicts himself in the same sentence.

1. Gimmicks, as most people call them, are the reason sweepers can run past supposedly fool proof counters, as well as vice versa, some pokemon are walled by gimmicks. Ill make you an example: keldeo is hard countered by celebi in most occasions, then the ebelt set came out, it was a gimmick at first, just like Spinda was saying, and its arguably worse than the scarf set, but when youre catching an opponent off guard like that (and killing their special wall like that), you gain advantage easily. Battling 101 for you. I can go on and on with the examples: shuca berry icy wind rachi beats sash chomp, ice gem terrakion cleans up for partner physical sweepers etting rid of landorus t, etc.

2. The contradiction i was talking about: how, may i ask, can you know if a person is good or not at using a set by the way they talk? Im serious, id like to know how to do it myself. On a serious note, yeh, you can use a pokemon as slow as tyranitar as hit and run; i hope this will not sound cocky but i use choice ttar in half my teams, and i know it was created with ONE and only ONE purpose: pursuit trapping. You can try and say crunch and Stone Edge are spammable moves when they are both resisted by Tyranitar's natural, choice band or not, switch-ins, but theyre not, period. Hit and run pokes are Choice Band Terrakion and Scarf Latios, who often mean a dead poke the moment they enter the field freely, have excelent speed, and a powerful STAB that doesnt miss 8/10 times... wait wut?

3. Im not supporting Hippo for S, lets leave that clear, im neutral on that area, but as of walling, Hippowdon is hands down, one of, if not THE best physical WALL (not pivot like Lando T) currently, i think we all know that, right? It has all the characteristics, defensively-wise, to go to S-rank, and its sole problem is that its one-dimensional, ill give you that, and i think thats important, but thats why Spinda mentioned a gimmick that lets Hippo go a different side.

 

[TrippingRocks]

While Tyranitar is arguably the best pursuit trapper in OU, to say that he's only good as a pursuit trapper would be a massive mistake. His defensive typing isn't too good but that doesn't completely nullify his 100/110/100 defensive stats. And in the sandstorm (which he can summon himself) his Sp.def stat jumps up further by 50%. A defensive Tyranitar is certainly viable with that kind of defense, even if his defensive typing is bad. While he might not be as good of a wall as OU's best like Hippowodon or Celebi, he can still set up rocks and provide a good amount of offensive power. Thanks to his 134 attack stat, Tyranitar can still hurt things even without Attack EVs. If a steel type wants to switch on him, Tyranitar can use fire blast on them. Even w/o attack investments, a pursuit still OHKOs a 4/0 Lati@s after stealth rocks if they're trying to switch out.

 

[Kingler]

Qualna
Jellicent is NOT OU because it gets around ttar. It's OU as it's the best defensive spinblocker, rain counter, and due to its excellent defensive typing. Please don't say it's OU because of ttar, imo you're embarrassing yourself. Also your new post doesn't make much sense at all. Not spam moves?!?!?!? Hit and run? CB ttar lacks a good STAB move unlike terrakion who can just spam CC, and CB is rather slow despite its excellent bulk and extremely vulnerable to fighting-types. Also how do you justify Tyranitar being an excellent pursuit trapper by saying that Pokemon that would be pursuittrapped but get around it 'are OU staples'. You don't make a clear argument for tyranitar for S.
as for hippo for S, spinda can explain that
Edit- uhh, i still don't understand your argument at all. Terrakion has an excellent stab in cc, and ttar doesn't have that kind of stab. Ttar and terrakion might play differently, but this hurts it a lot.

 

[Monte Cristo]

Damn you, PK. You dropped the Angriest Bird That Ever Was. *ahem*

Keep Starmie in A+. It cannot get past SpDef Jellicent without Thunder or Analytic boosts, and if it's not the full-tilt offensive variant it's not getting past even with Thunder. It's also entirely walled by Ferrothorn barring the EXTREMELY rare HP Fire, and that LO Analytic boost is only for one move, and you have to predict very well in order to make use of it. Keldeo hits that hard literally all the time. And for fuck's sake, can we please stop talking about Choice Scarf Magnezone? I remember the last time I saw Crobat in OU. I don't remember the last time I saw Scarfzone.

That being said, Jellicent really is the only spinblocker that puts up a fight against Starmie, so its spot as the best offensive spinner in OU and in A+ is well-deserved.

Sdef jelli is really shitty, it can't even wall most of the shit it's supposed to wall, it's just a dumb set popularized purely so people would stop bitching about keld, utility wall is like 100x fucking better:
252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 36 Def Jellicent: 188-224 (46.53 - 55.44%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Thunder vs. 252 HP / 220+ SpD Jellicent: 205-242 (50.74 - 59.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

let me tell you this is WITHOUT analytic, please tell me more about how jelli can stop the fiercest water in OU (there, I said it, this thing is better than keldeo people IMO, it's like 3x harder to switch into due to analytic, supportive as hell with rapid spin, has amazing subtyping and has an amazing offensive and supportive movepool with moves like recover, spin and thunder and has a insane speed tier)

 

[DoABarrelRoll]

Choice Scarf Gengar is by far the best answer to starmie out of all spinblockers.

 

[Spinda]

I agree that getting OHKO'd on the switch is the best answer to starmie

 

[Schpoonman]

Sdef jelli is really shitty, it can't even wall most of the shit it's supposed to wall, it's just a dumb set popularized purely so people would stop bitching about keld, utility wall is like 100x fucking better:
252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 36 Def Jellicent: 188-224 (46.53 - 55.44%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Thunder vs. 252 HP / 220+ SpD Jellicent: 205-242 (50.74 - 59.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

let me tell you this is WITHOUT analytic, please tell me more about how jelli can stop the fiercest water in OU (there, I said it, this thing is better than keldeo people IMO, it's like 3x harder to switch into due to analytic, supportive as hell with rapid spin, has amazing subtyping and has an amazing offensive and supportive movepool with moves like recover, spin and thunder and has a insane speed tier)

If Jellicent is supposed to be OU's best spinblocker, it sounds like you're running a pretty shitty set if you can't get shut down every spinner in OU, which I would absolutely prioritize over walling some other shit. You'll notice that sometimes Keldeo gets past its checks by brute fucking force, which Starmie does not have. Again, Keldeo hits that hard literally all the time, whereas Starmie gets one move boosted by Analytic on the switch, and you can be fucking sure that if the Pokemon is faster than Starmie they are going to crush it thanks to 60/85/85 defenses. Analytic relies on how well the player predicts which is not something we take into account when ranking a Pokemon. Using a physically defensive set on Jellicent means you are cleanly 2HKOd by Grass Knot and Thunderbolt, which are far more common on Starmie's sets than Thunder or Analytic.

 

[Spinda]

I agree that Starmie never bruteforces itself past its checks. Also I can't remember the last time I've seen an offensive non-analytic starmie.

252 SpA Choice Specs Analytic Starmie Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 208 SpD Ferrothorn in rain: 176-207 (50 - 58.8%)

 

[MCBarrett]

Thunderbolt still 2hko's after SR on the switch. You simply aren't stopping Starmie from spinning on a team with Jellicent, bottom line. You basically need Jellicent plus a Scarf Ttar waiting to trap to have a chance at stopping Starmie with Jellicent. Even then Scarf Pursuit only does around 58-69% if they stay in so Starmie can still get a spin off even after 2 rounds of LO recoil and SR damage (99ish% chance to do so since you're at 68%).

 

[Schpoonman]

I agree that Starmie never bruteforces itself past its checks. Also I can't remember the last time I've seen an offensive non-analytic starmie.

252 SpA Choice Specs Analytic Starmie Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 208 SpD Ferrothorn in rain: 176-207 (50 - 58.8%)

Congratulations, that Hydro Pump only does that damage once, immediately after which Ferrorhorn has its way with you. Again, Analytic is a really shitty argument for high tiering (because A+ isn't damn good anyway, who needs to be categorized as one of the best Pokemon in the metagame) because it relies on prediction. So, even when you predicted that Ferrothorn was coming in under the rain when you have a Life Orb and Analytic, you STILL can't manage the 2HKO.

 

[Halcyon.]

Congratulations, that Hydro Pump only does that damage once, immediately after which Ferrorhorn has its way with you. Again, Analytic is a really shitty argument for high tiering (because A+ isn't damn good anyway, who needs to be categorized as one of the best Pokemon in the metagame) because it relies on prediction. So, even when you predicted that Ferrothorn was coming in under the rain when you have a Life Orb and Analytic, you STILL can't manage the 2HKO.

Not only that, but that's Specs damage -___-

 

[Spinda]

Congratulations, that Hydro Pump only does that damage once, immediately after which Ferrorhorn has its way with you. Again, Analytic is a really shitty argument for high tiering (because A+ isn't damn good anyway, who needs to be categorized as one of the best Pokemon in the metagame) because it relies on prediction. So, even when you predicted that Ferrothorn was coming in under the rain when you have a Life Orb and Analytic, you STILL can't manage the 2HKO.

Wait, going for hydro pump is predicting? It's not switching in a second time tho, Keldeo isn't realistically breaking most of its checks without predicting the first switchin either.

Also Halycon., specs starmie is the only starmie I use nowadays, why are you pointing it out?

 

[Monte Cristo]

If Jellicent is supposed to be OU's best spinblocker, it sounds like you're running a pretty shitty set if you can't get shut down every spinner in OU, which I would absolutely prioritize over walling some other shit. You'll notice that sometimes Keldeo gets past its checks by brute fucking force, which Starmie does not have. Again, Keldeo hits that hard literally all the time, whereas Starmie gets one move boosted by Analytic on the switch, and you can be fucking sure that if the Pokemon is faster than Starmie they are going to crush it thanks to 60/85/85 defenses. Analytic relies on how well the player predicts which is not something we take into account when ranking a Pokemon. Using a physically defensive set on Jellicent means you are cleanly 2HKOd by Grass Knot and Thunderbolt, which are far more common on Starmie's sets than Thunder or Analytic.

I love how you forget that psyshock starmie is really damn good in the current meta, and again another usage based argument, yes thunder and psyshock aren't that commen, but when a A+ rank pokemon are literally in the fucking 30-40s in the usage stats (Latias) you've got to call bullshit on usage honestly. also 60/85/85 defenses are really minor when you resist every major OU priority bar random lower tier sucker punches and lucario's Espeed cacturne (scizor BP, breloom MP, all aqua jets etc. all are resisted) and are one of the fastest things in OU (jolteon is the only directly faster one that can dammage it too bad, duggy is debatable, and alakazam needs to not take any prior hits since non LO signal beam fails to KO)
And if you want to debate scarfers lets not even bring up keldeo's speed tier

 

[ShootingStarmie]

Eh, I don't have too much of an opinion about Starmie's ranking, but I don't think it's fair to say that Alakazam doesn't check Starmie, because it does.

252 SpA Alakazam Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Starmie: 204-242 (78.16 - 92.72%) -- 31.25% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

Even without Stealth Rock, Starmie is so easily worn down thanks to Life Orb recoil, while Alakazam out speeds and can always live a hit thanks to Focus Sash.

As for my opinion on Starmie? It doesn't sound like it's S rank to me. This is mainly because it's very prediction heavy, worn down easily, easily revenge killed by any Scarfer, and still has solid checks. Let's face it, there's only two sets being currently used in the metagame. LO with Analytic, and defensive Starmie with Recover. While I think it's safe to say no one is thinking Starmie is S rank because of it's defensive set, I'm going to be talking mainly about the LO Analytic set.

Yes it's true that Jellicent can't spin block it. Nothing in OU can spin block Starmie, because with correct prediction, it can 2HKO every spin blocker. However, with recoil in the form of LO, Sand, switching into SR, and potentially an attack, it's only going to be spinning once per a game. Starmie is also trapped very nicely by Scarf Tyranitar, and it's generally countered pretty nicely by Ferrothorn. If it KOes something, it's easily forced out by opposing Choice Scarf Pokemon, and it usually doesn't find time to Spin afterwards. What I mean by this is that you can't both Rapid Spin and KO everything, it's one or the other.

I dunno, there's just so many bad points to Starmie that makes me think it shouldn't be S rank. I guess I could be convinced, and I'd love to see it up there (for obvious reasons), but A+ is still very very good. S rank is the kinda tier you place potential suspect Pokemon in, not very good Pokemon.

 

[Qualna]

Qualna
Jellicent is NOT OU because it gets around ttar. It's OU as it's the best defensive spinblocker, rain counter, and due to its excellent defensive typing. Please don't say it's OU because of ttar, imo you're embarrassing yourself. Also your new post doesn't make much sense at all. Not spam moves?!?!?!? Hit and run? CB ttar lacks a good STAB move unlike terrakion who can just spam CC, and CB is rather slow despite its excellent bulk and extremely vulnerable to fighting-types. Also how do you justify Tyranitar being an excellent pursuit trapper by saying that Pokemon that would be pursuittrapped but get around it 'are OU staples'. You don't make a clear argument for tyranitar for S.
as for hippo for S, spinda can explain that

That's not what I meant. I did not said they were OU because they get get around ttar because even things like Cofagrigus can also get around it. What I meant was they are difficult to check/counter because they can get around their usual check. Of course I know Jellicent is great in OU because of it's great typing and access to Recover and etc.

CBand was ALWAYS a prediction set, it's a hit and run, it's stupid to spam moves with CBand, unless it is late game, where Pokémons that resist it are gone or weakend.

spamming CC is like saying:

hah! I finally sent out Terrakion, spam CC! Oh a Gliscor, idc just CC! WOOOOOO!!!!!!!1!


Your points about Tyranitar's offense is correct but it's like saying: "many things wall Specs Politoed's Hydro Pump, should be A lol" Hydro Pump might have 120 BP but remember kids, there are way more pokémons in OU that resist Water than Dark and Rock.

"How do you justify Ttar as a good pursuit trapper..."

Tyranitar is an excellent trapper because it's not only good at trapping, let's take the CBand set, and what you get when using it.

When you use the CBand set, you get: a Trapper, a Weather Starter, a Tank(omg it haz many waeknesz), and a Brutal Wallbreaker(doesn't all CBand do this?).

Now, tell me, what other Pokémon can boast doing so many things with only one set? Jirachi is the only other pokémon who can boast doing so many things in one set like Tyranitar.

From what I noticed, the people who wants Tyranitar down says that it is outclassed by Terrakion as a CBander, outclassed by Hippowdon as a weather starter, etc. etc.

But what they forget is that Tyranitar just does so many things in one teamslot, giving you more teamslots and flexibility. And that's why it is S Rank. Rightfully.

FYI, I even said Weavile (would be) the best Pokémon in pursuit trapping a couple of posts ago, but Tyranitar just do so many things, that's why it is the best trapper.


"As Hippo for S" haha, no. It's not S Rank. I bet you didn't say why Hippowdon is S Rank is because you don't even have reasons, I can understand you, since there aren't really any reasons(lol). If you do know why, then tell me.

 

[Qualna]

1. Gimmicks, as most people call them, are the reason sweepers can run past supposedly fool proof counters, as well as vice versa, some pokemon are walled by gimmicks. Ill make you an example: keldeo is hard countered by celebi in most occasions, then the ebelt set came out, it was a gimmick at first, just like Spinda was saying, and its arguably worse than the scarf set, but when youre catching an opponent off guard like that (and killing their special wall like that), you gain advantage easily. Battling 101 for you. I can go on and on with the examples: shuca berry icy wind rachi beats sash chomp, ice gem terrakion cleans up for partner physical sweepers etting rid of landorus t, etc.

Lures and Gimmicks are one of those things that are quite similar, but are very different. All of the stuff you said are lures, not gimmick. Lure is a customized usual set to beat their biggest counters while a gimmick is something that goes out of usual, but is ineffective after the surprise.

A gimmick, like a Rapid Spin Smeargle, is used to spin away entry hazards, it is almost surefire because the enemy is not expecting it. But it's usefulness ends there because it's unlikely to get a second chance in spinning because there are many faster things that can kill it before spinning, sporing(or dbond or something).

While a lure like Ice-Gem Terrakion, lures in their biggest counter and kill it and proceed to do your stuff.

"Battling 101 for you" says the guy who can't differenciate lures from gimmicks.

I understand that some people call Lures as gimmicks but let's be specific here.

About number 2, my post above says something. I'm also not sure if you meant scarf ttar or band.

Hmm.. my bad sentence construction is catching up on me... About Weavile, my post above should clear it up.

I sense there are still things people won't get, so just say it so I(or someone else) will clear it up.

sorry for double post but I didn't notice this one

 

[Stone RG]

Lures and Gimmicks are one of those things that are quite similar, but are very different. All of the stuff you said are lures, not gimmick. Lure is a customized usual set to beat their biggest counters while a gimmick is something that goes out of usual, but is ineffective after the surprise.

A gimmick, like a Rapid Spin Smeargle, is used to spin away entry hazards, it is almost surefire because the enemy is not expecting it. But it's usefulness ends there because it's unlikely to get a second chance in spinning because there are many faster things that can kill it before spinning, sporing(or dbond or something).

While a lure like Ice-Gem Terrakion, lures in their biggest counter and kill it and proceed to do your stuff.

"Battling 101 for you" says the guy who can't differenciate lures from gimmicks.

I didnt understand jack of what you tried to say after that, but as for this...

So a lure isnt a gimmick? Your definition of lure is alright, we're ok on that, but a lure is a gimmick itself, last time i checked a mixed terrakion sucks in every sense of the word, and theres a reason it isnt used, except it works at catching a gliscor or an landorus T off-guard. All lures are gimmicks yet not all gimmicks are lures, at least thats how ive seen it during my relatively short time at competitive battling.

Bold: i lold, no sarcasm intended.

 

[PDC]

luretar was a gimmick, then it became an actual set that was put on site. not every lure is a gimmick forever really. kind of goes with ebelt keldeo as well.

 

[Qualna]

I didnt understand jack of what you tried to say after that, but as for this...

So a lure isnt a gimmick? Your definition of lure is alright, we're ok on that, but a lure is a gimmick itself, last time i checked a mixed terrakion sucks in every sense of the word, and theres a reason it isnt used, except it works at catching a gliscor or an landorus T off-guard. All lures are gimmicks yet not all gimmicks are lures, at least thats how ive seen it during my relatively short time at competitive battling.

Bold: i lold, no sarcasm intended.

But not all lures are gimmicks, take the Keldeo you said for example. Choice Bluffing is a known strategy, and using it isn't gimmicky in the slightest sense.

"Not all gimmikcs are lures" yep, and the Hippowdon that was mentioned isn't a lure.

But imo, we aren't really talking about relevant stuff here anymore.

 

[Monte Cristo]

But not all lures are gimmicks, take the Keldeo you said for example. Choice Bluffing is a known strategy, and using it isn't gimmicky in the slightest sense.

"Not all gimmikcs are lures" yep, and the Hippowdon that was mentioned isn't a lure.

But imo, we aren't really talking about relevant stuff here anymore.

Sand Force hippo isn't a gimmick, it's a fucking threat

 

[Punchshroom]

Yeah, but you need a T-Tar to set up Sand for it, defeating the whole purpose of running Hippo in the first place.

 

[Schpoonman]

Running Hippowdon as a Sand Force physical attacker is like running Landorus-I in BW1 as a Sand Force physical attacker. The idea of Hippowdon as a weather setter is, maybe understandably so, ingrained in your head to the point where you fail to see any other option for it. Punchshroom, what you just said is one of the most wildly point-missing posts I've seen in a while. Try to understand the purpose of a particular set before you start to call it out as shit because you clearly don't know what it was in the first place.

 

[Punchshroom]

Running Hippowdon as a Sand Force physical attacker is like running Landorus-I in BW1 as a Sand Force physical attacker. The idea of Hippowdon as a weather setter is, maybe understandably so, ingrained in your head to the point where you fail to see any other option for it. Punchshroom, what you just said is one of the most wildly point-missing posts I've seen in a while. Try to understand the purpose of a particular set before you start to call it out as shit because you clearly don't know what it was in the first place.

Um...okay? Pot calling the kettle black here? How is Sand Force Hippo even similar to Sand Force Lando-I aside from sharing the same ability? (Put it simple, Lando-I sweeps and perhaps scouts, Hippo tanks, wildly different) That's like saying Poison Heal Breloom plays similarly to Poison Heal Gliscor.

I get that the Hippo is Sand Force, but what reason is there to use it over say, Landorus-T, Garchomp or Mamoswine? Slack Off and huge physical bulk could work in its favor, but other Ground-types don't need to tank hits to perform. Other Ground-types also don't need Sand to pack their punch, while using Sand Force Hippo means you need a Tyranitar on your team so your Hippo isn't underperforming compared to other Ground-types. Lando-T can tank physical hits with Intimidate and even hits about as hard as Hippo while knowing moves like Rock Polish and U-turn, Garchomp has a decent speed tier and wondrous dual STABs compared to Hippo's mono-Ground coverage + Stone Edge or weak ass elemental fangs, Mamoswine also has great dual STABs and also priority to deal with rampaging Dragons better. Hippo kinda sits there, which it should be doing, but it shouldn't be forgoing its greatest benefit in Sand Stream and trying to wallbreak or whatever, while also being forced to run a Tyranitar alongside so that your Hippo won't be total deadweight against other weather. Why try to get a power boost from Sand (and run an alternate weather setter) when wallbreaking is done better by other dudes and, more importantly, when you can just set up Sand yourself and save a teamslot?