Serious The Nazi foundations and orientation of "olympics", normalization / anti-normalization, [any other related issues]

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i began this discussion regarding the annual roa-"olympics", was locked by forum mods and i was directed to continue it here (tho it kind of is mons-related, but idk this is where i was told to put it.)

here are the original posts on the other thread, up to the point when it was locked. (u can ofc just click the first link and then scroll down from there, but i copy/pasted all of the posts individually in case thats easier for anyone for whatever reason.)

// content warning: racial violence, gender violence

https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/roa-olympics-vii-round-4.3709470/post-9374473
https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/roa-olympics-vii-round-4.3709470/post-9374488
https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/roa-olympics-vii-round-4.3709470/post-9374543
https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/roa-olympics-vii-round-4.3709470/post-9374733

this thread can be for anyone else to express their thoughts, or to continue from the specific points being discussed before the other thread locked, maybe add in anything related that was left out / or that we hadnt gotten to yet, etc.

per the moderator post further down in this thread (november 3rd approx 8pm gmt), cong mods are excluding specific discussion of smogon policy re roa-o on this thread. (tbc i am not a cong mod.)
 
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Vulpix03

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I agree with everything the OP says. I also believe that the World Cup of Pokémon should be renamed because 6000 people died for the FIFA World Cup in Qatar and this fact upsets, or at the very least should upset, a lot of people.

Also, please stay safe.
 

chimp

Go Bananas
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Genuine asking out of genuine me wanting to learn,

is there not room for a difference between “The Olympics” (i.e. the IOC and their nonsense) and the general concept of ‘Olympics’ (i.e. the concept of countries playing against each other for medals). Like one can reject FIFA but still enjoy soccer, or more specifically the concept of the world cup?

i really dont care either way cuz i have no involvement in the tournament but i find the discussion interesting
 

Sabelette

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Everyone who laugh reacted at the original post is an ass, no joke - like put away the privilege for a sec, stop hiding behind "it's a childrens game who cares lmao," and consider words and gestures have consequences. Nobody is expecting Smogon changing little things will change the world, nor for Smogon to perfectly navigate these issues, but for some of us, the way these things currently stand are little extra papercuts in deep wounds. Seeing "Israel" recognized as a legitimate state for country-based tournaments, as a person with living relatives who were thrown out of their homes and a person who survived missile attacks from them, feels like an extra little twist of the knife. It's not even remotely as painful and impactful as, say, watching the usa continue to throw money their way and murder people, but it hurts and continues to reopen traumatic wounds. I wish it didn't, and people can call me soft, oversensitive, whatever the fuck they want, but you try getting bombed as a 10 year old by a genocidal settler-colonial state that is slowly starving and ethnically cleansing your cousins, and tell me you would come out of that feeling okay. As a trans person and Arab, I want Smogon to defend and uplift Palestinians to the same extent it would defend me from anti-trans hate happening here and uplift the LGBTQ+ community.

I also have empathy for the people who experience harm from the Olympics and the World Cup as well, even if they aren't my own direct experiences. Renaming these things, even a little, isn't a big deal - someone suggested "Olympiad" and even that's a nice little mild dissociation from the modern Olympics, to me. These things are small, and many won't see the point I'm sure, but also... they're not that hard to change. They really are not. I hope it will at least be considered.
 

Sabelette

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You guys should really stop inventing problems for yourselves honestly, it is just a tournament named after the biggest sports event on the planet on a kids game, let us fight each other with our magical pets in peace
Really happy for you that you don't have to deal with the effects of colonizer violence or care about world issues - some of us do. Your country colonized mine and stole our wealth while fostering sectarian violence and enforcing your language, culture and values on us under threat of death.
 
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Really happy for you that you don't have to deal with the effects of colonizer violence or care about world issues - some of us do. Your country colonized mine and stole our wealth while fostering sectarian violence and enforcing your language, culture and values on us under threat of death.
but what's the correlation between this and an event that gather all nationalities from all continents to compete peacefully in most sports? and what's the correlation between this and a kids game website? I'm not minimizing, you're just very off-topic
 
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but what's the correlation between this and an event that gather all nationalities from all continents to compete peacefully in most sports? and what's the correlation between this and a kids game website? I'm not minimizing, you're just very off-topic
nothing is “just” anything, theolympics arent “just” the “biggest sports event in the world”, the olympics had been irrelevant or nonexistant prior to the past 90 years of rich powerful nazis turning it into “the biggest sports event in the world” (whatever definiton of biggest idk not focusing on that).

theres no interpretation of ‘biggest’ that is neutral. its ‘analagous to’ saying, well idc what happened in the past white people should have all the power in american politics since they/we are a demographic majority, and the majority rules. ignoring that white ppl have deliberately become ‘the majority’ through genocide and other war crimes. similar applies to the occupation of palestine (the settler state claiming to be a democracy when its settler majority is continuously maintained by the genocide of palestinians.) the olympics have the prestige, power, fame etc that they do, specifically and only because the IOC serves and operates on behalf of imperial and white nationalist interests. “its the biggest” is entirely circular and could be used to justify pretty much any horrific symbol or apparatus or actions of those in power.

and maybe the “correlation” is that u come on here complaining that colonized people should ‘leave u in peace’, when ur home nation started the war. like how dare u complain that colonized people are “disturbing your peace” by … literally talking about their experiences of colonization.

[tbc this is j my own response im not speaking for anyone else]
 
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Knight of Cydonia

I COULD BE BANNED!
Why single out Israel as not deserving to be in tournaments or be recognised as a country? Maybe you should remove China as well for their current genocide and crimes against humanity, also against muslims, or treatment of their neighbouring countries? How about you remove USA as well, I'm sure there are plenty of people around the world that don't want to be reminded of their unjust wars and murder of civilians, or countless other crimes? How about remove UK for supporting the USA, or having a lot of its wealth built on colonialism and slavery etc. etc.? You better scrap Brazil as well because of their treatment of indigenous people? Ban Russia as well, no one wants to see them with their war in Ukraine. How about you make up new names for these countries if Israel gets to be labelled the zionist state. I can give you a reason for nearly any country to not be recognised. Is it just because of anti-semitism? If in fact the real issue is that you have a problem with country based tournaments then just say that instead.

Also I never new the nazis created the olympics, but good to know. Overall I think the idea that people associate the olympics with these problems, beyond boycotting some games because countries don't want to show support for the hosts, is quite a stretch. When I hear olympics I think of Usain Bolt, so they haven't done a great job proving white people are better if that was the supposed goal.
 

Myzozoa

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I agree with everything the OP says. I also believe that the World Cup of Pokémon should be renamed because 6000 people died for the FIFA World Cup in Qatar and this fact upsets, or at the very least should upset, a lot of people.

Also, please stay safe.
being a fan of pro (association) football in 2022 is not much different than being a fan of opec. doomed n cursed.
 

BIG ASHLEY

ashley
is a Community Contributor
Maybe you should remove China as well for their current genocide and crimes against humanity, also against muslims, or treatment of their neighbouring countries? How about you remove USA as well, I'm sure there are plenty of people around the world that don't want to be reminded of their unjust wars and murder of civilians, or countless other crimes? How about remove UK for supporting the USA, or having a lot of its wealth built on colonialism and slavery etc. etc.? You better scrap Brazil as well because of their treatment of indigenous people? Ban Russia as well, no one wants to see them with their war in Ukraine.
unironically yes
 
Also I never new the nazis created the olympics, but good to know.
The Nazis (specifically Nazi Germany, not literally Hitler himself) also created Fanta, the Volkswagen Beetle, helicopters, meth, and Jägermeister. No one is boycotting those just because of their origins.

It's possible to oppose the views and actions of the creators of a concept or good, but still find that concept or good useful. No reasonable human supports Nazi Germany, but who among us doesn't love the refreshing taste of Fanta!
1666964739869.png

Nazis = bad but whatever the initial concept for the Olympics was it has morphed into a semi-friendly competition between nations, one that typically transcends global issues and relations.
 
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While most of my reaction to the Olympics is "I don't follow sports," there's a part of me that reflects back on my elementary school days and becomes concerned for humanity.

People will do irrational things if they're a strong fan of something. This isn't exclusive to sports, but there are a lot of strong fans of sports teams. At least some of the time, people are also fans of their country. So having large sporting events with teams fully based on countries seems... I guess I can call it volatile?

I remember the winter of 2010, the last time I watched any coverage of the Olympics. I was in Grade 7 or 8. The Olympics were in Vancouver, 3000+km away but still within our borders, so at least as far as the teachers seemed to be concerned, it was their obligation as Canadians to hype the events as much as possible. This culminated in a themed activity day or somesuch. Most memorable of the makeshift events was the attempt at replicating curling. Lacking an ice rink, the school somehow decided it was a good idea to slide blocks of ice down a hallway with a tile floor. For six hours. A hallway that just happened to contain my locker. The floor was completely destroyed and it took several months to replace, all because "show hype for sports in the country" took precedence over sanity.

This isn't directly related to the historical context of the Olympics, I just support the idea of de-emphasizing nationalism in sports in general.
 

phoopes

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Locking this thread for now because it’s probably going to get out of hand.

In the meantime, Senior Staff and RoA Leadership hear the concerns raised and are currently discussing changes to future iterations of the tournament. This includes the name, format, countries recognized, and probably some other stuff. When we come to any decisions we’ll let you know.

I’ll leave it up to Cong mods whether to repurpose this thread into general discussion or whatever decision they’d like to make on the topic as a whole.
 

antemortem

THE ORIGINAL DAVE
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Socialization Head
Hi juoean and others in this thread:

I wanted to give everyone an opportunity to continue discussing this topic at-large (i.e in a broad sense, rather than focusing specifically on its relationship to Smogon or Smogon-affiliated projects). Please cater your arguments to the content of the original thread/posts if you will, but refrain from responding to the RoA Olympics specifically as it perpetuates cross-site inflammation.

Cong mods will continue editing ad hominem and tangents out of posts if necessary.

Otherwise, this convo is unlocked & free game.
 

Aqua Jet

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This isn't directly related to the historical context of the Olympics, I just support the idea of de-emphasizing nationalism in sports in general.
I think that nationalism is kinda fun in sports as long as it remains in the spirit of fun. I remember during Vancouver 2010 my Grade 4 teacher Ms. Edey had us do a project on a single Canadian athlete. I did Heather Moyse, a female bobsledder, who ended up winning a Gold medal which was pretty cool. It made me really happy to feel like a part of me was on the team too, even if I obviously wasn't. Flash forward to 2021, I remember feeling a surge of pride when I was competing in UUWC II under Canada, which was my first-ever Smogon team tournament. I went negative there (1-2) but I remember feeling really happy that I was representing the country that I live in. I felt and feel proud representing the country that my family fled to two generations ago from Italy to escape poverty. I continue to participate almost exclusively in lower-tier World Cups to this day because every time I do I get to represent my country which means more to me than representing a different team.
Obviously, I understand this is not the case for all people, for example here in Canada our First Nations. If you're unaware of Canadian history, were treated extremely poorly with conditions similar to Nazi Germany's death camps.
I think that because of this there is definitely a conversation to be had about people not wanting to represent the country they live in because they / their ancestors are/were treated extremely poorly.
 
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antemortem

THE ORIGINAL DAVE
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Socialization Head
So I want to address something in light of some PMs I’ve received and posts itt:

D2B697C5-20F1-4AB3-B6FC-97D22B4641D6.jpeg


Moving forward in this discourse, remember that we’re dealing with historical precedents and violent histories that can’t be excluded from modern day conversation; the former informs the latter. This means that the sensitivities of people living as victims of both past and present abuse of other countries is valid even when not every citizen of a country with a violent history necessarily agrees with that history.

Respect each other by not trivializing responses with Haha reacts or PMs filled with passive aggressive bullshit wherever possible.
 
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Sabelette

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I think that nationalism is kinda fun in sports as long as it remains in the spirit of fun. I remember during Vancouver 2010 my Grade 4 teacher Ms. Edey had us do a project on a single Canadian athlete. I did Heather Moyse, a female bobsledder, who ended up winning a Gold medal which was pretty cool. It made me really happy to feel like a part of me was on the team too, even if I obviously wasn't. Flash forward to 2021, I remember feeling a surge of pride when I was competing in UUWC II under Canada, which was my first-ever Smogon team tournament. I went negative there (1-2) but I remember feeling really happy that I was representing the country that I live in. I felt and feel proud representing the country that my family fled to two generations ago from Italy to escape poverty. I continue to participate almost exclusively in lower-tier World Cups to this day because every time I do I get to represent my country which means more to me than representing a different team.
Obviously, I understand this is not the case for all people, for example here in Canada our First Nations. If you're unaware of Canadian history, were treated extremely poorly with conditions similar to Nazi Germany's death camps.
I think that because of this there is definitely a conversation to be had about people not wanting to represent the country they live in because they / their ancestors are/were treated extremely poorly.
I would love to play for Lebanon or Palestine cause that’s “home” and has been for well over 1000 years for my family (Syria and Egypt too but those are further back/less connection) before borders got put there. That’d be my ideal but I don’t live there, can’t really go back at this point thanks to my identity (whole other topic), and can’t even safely go to Palestine while it’s occupied anyway lol. I’m very anti nationalism but like, there are ways to have harmless pride in your origins - like “Lebanon” as a state means nothing to me but I’m proud to be from that area and of my culture and of the many ties I have there. That’s a very different thing from the sorts of national pride centered on a flag, exclusion of certain people, cultural superiority, etc.
 
i either dont understand or dont agree with how posts on this thread are being modded/infracted. (i feel i should speak to this since im the one who opened this, and therefore i take some responsibility for anything that happens on this thread.)

in the fourth post on this thread, someone decided to not only condescend to ppl participating in this discussion but claim we were harming them by infringing on their personal ‘peace’. this comment was left alone by mods. then the subsequent post responded to them and pointed out that this “disturbing the peace” rhetoric comes from a place of privilege, which is a relevant substantive contribution to this conversation. (it could perhaps be considered a micro-scale version of ppl who blame protests for ‘disrupting their day’, while absolving blame of the perpetrators of violence that sparked protest in the first place. which comes from a place of privilege ‘in a similar way’.) however the sentence referring to the comment coming from a place of privilege was suppressed by mods.

then yesterday after a mod came and haha reacted a bunch of posts including some of my own, someone commented how this was upsetting, and their whole comment was removed. i dont see how this discussion can rly function if ppl arent allowed to express how they/we feel being ridiculed with dozens of haha reacts (and esp when someone goes thru and haha reacts all our posts like as if the first haha react wasnt enough to get the message across lol). and particularly when it comes from a mod, who holds some sort of power in this discussion (i dont have a great understanding of smogon admin organization so i dont know if the mod in question is a mod on this forum specifically), if they are willing to haha react us here then we have every reason to think they will act punitively in this or another situation in which they have the power to do so. ofc its only ‘power’ on smogon, but nonetheless. [dave’s post above does address some of this, but doesnt mention that a mod was engaging in this ridicule; also the people who experienced ridicule should be allowed to speak about it themselves.]
by not allowing ppl to talk about mod behavior openly, it is potentially providing cover for this mod and anyone else who might do a similar thing going forward, and it means for example that some other interpersonal harmful action later might be taken less seriously, and more importantly ppl would be less likely to speak up if they think they are the only one who has experienced xyz. plus, it being in the open likely makes a mod take the situation more seriously than if it is swept under the rug.
it is not meant to be punitive toward them, it is a matter of transparency and accountability.

aside from these concerns about modding, good to see the discussion is opened again. and im rly sorry to anyone who has been impacted by ridicule, particularly those for whom this touches on personal experiences of oppression. fwiw my msgs are open if eg theres something someone wants to express but isnt comfortable doing so publicly (given the extent of ridicule and slander in response to this thread).
 

Sabelette

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Sorry but the OP is being wildly antisemitic. There is nothing wrong with allowing Israel to compete in the Olympics.
It's not antisemitic to be against settler-colonial genocide, and calling anti-Zionism antisemitic directly minimizes actual antisemitism.

Edit: Also nobody is saying to ban the Palestine occupiers from playing at all, just to not let them play under the flag of a genocidal ethnostate. I don't care if they play under the Middle Eastern, MENA, or European region, but I do care that they don't get to rep a flag that exists to perpetuate genocide.
 
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There's a difference between saying a state shouldn't exist and pretending it doesn't exist even though it does. Israel is a de-facto state. As are the Palestinian territories. As is Taiwan and Transnistria and Abkhazia and I'm sure I'm missing a few but you get the idea. I believe that in order to be fair any body that functions as a de-facto state should get their flag included. Eventually all the annoying countries will boycott one another and so the only places left in the Olympics will be countries too irrelevant to give a shit like Iceland. I believe that this will achieve world peace.
 

Sabelette

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There's a difference between saying a state shouldn't exist and pretending it doesn't exist even though it does. Israel is a de-facto state. As are the Palestinian territories. As is Taiwan and Transnistria and Abkhazia and I'm sure I'm missing a few but you get the idea. I believe that in order to be fair any body that functions as a de-facto state should get their flag included. Eventually all the annoying countries will boycott one another and so the only places left in the Olympics will be countries too irrelevant to give a shit like Iceland. I believe that this will achieve world peace.
There is a very real difference between the Zionist genocide doers and Taiwan, being as they’re actively doing opposite things. The Zionist occupation is actively committing genocide through the use of a mythology that tries to place Palestine as a not-real place and a place that was actually the Jewish homeland since time immemorial, stolen from under them by the evil Palestinians. The Zionist occupiers depend on their legitimacy for financial support and to avoid sanctions. Normalizing it as “how things are” in the space that is occupied Palestine normalizes buying their products, recognizing them on the world stage, and so on, and directly inhibits efforts to boycott, divest, and sanction them to make their colonization too costly to maintain. The attitude of “well they’re there so we have to recognize them” is what they are banking on - simply do this until it becomes so normal that nobody even cares to try to impede them as they gun down, bomb, imprison, torture, and starve Palestinians. Yes, de facto they have control of the region, but the less spaces recognize them as legitimate, the easier it is to strip them of funding and support.

After all, if you saw a product in a store that said “made by Al Qaeda,” you probably wouldn’t buy it, right? A lot of people wouldn’t buy something made in Russia due to recent events and its legitimacy as a state *has* been under fire. Why is that easier and more actionable to people than resisting ethnic cleansing of Palestinians?

Also the glib tone people keep taking toward this shit (annoying countries and so on) is really starting to piss me off.
 
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