All Gens The Most Dominant Pokemon in History - #9-10 Position Debate

[Crystal_]

I think 7-10 should definitely include dragonite, alakazam, maybe jolteon, and definitely suicune. CroCune = gen 3.

Alakazam was only good in one gen, so definitely no. I mean, to put it into perspective, there is no way Alakazam deserves more than Exeggutor.
Jolteon was an bottom OU at best in every gen so not either.

Jirachi is extremely good (and OU) in ADV/DPP/BW. This seems like it deserves a spot on the top10.

BW is not being considered though (notice this is a RoA thread), so Jirachi is essentially a two-gen good, two gen non-existent Pokemon. Say, if I go back to the Exeggutor comparison again gen1/gen2 egg >= gen3/gen4 jirachi, and egg at least existed in the other two gens.

I think the three remaining slots should be filled with Dragonite, Celebi and one of the two spikers, in no particular order. I don't think Blissey alone deserves to be above any of these.

 

[kd24]

i dont understand how this guy from chile nyara is saying zam should be 10 but dnite shouldnt get on at all.

anyway, it should be suicune and celebi for sure at 7 and 8 and now i want to throw Raikou's name in the mix. im not going to say its the best mon in GSC like LN does but its certainly top 3 and meta defining, its really good in adv vs unprepared teams (in fact read the first line of raikous adv analysis: http://www.smogon.com/rs/pokemon/raikou - THE BEST SPECIAL SWEEPER IN THE GAME), and its actually really good in dp and can be very good on a lot of teams (and some very good teams in dpp used it)

im going raikou for number 9

 

[Nyara]

Dragonite without Wrap on RBY = Barely BL
Dragonite on GSC = Not great, not bad, avarage
Dragonite on ADV = Good, but not great, great.
Dragonite on DPP = Great

Alakazam without Wrap on RBY = Totally OU
Alakazam on GSC = Not great, not bad, avarage
Alakazam on ADV = Good
Alakazam on DPP = Good

And if we look at the title, it say "in History", and Wrap was not so abussed on the past as its being today, so, Alakazam mantains an edge over Dragonite along the time, but, yeah, both are kinda similar, anyway, also, I DIN'T say "put Alakazam on the place 10!", I just said it can be a possibility, but I doubt that could be a good possibility.

Anyway, considering the free slots for the Top 10, I could say: Suicune (#7), Blissey (#8), Raikou (#9), and maybe Cloyster for the number 10 to put a non-Skarmory Spiker over there, and Cloyster was OU on RBY, giving him an edge over the other spikers, or just Exeggutor (or Starmie).

 

[M Dragon]

Alakazam is terrible in DPP Ou and bad in GSc and ADV, while Dnite is great in RBY and DDP, and decent in GSC and ADV

 

[Borat]

suicune and some/both spiker deserves a spot in top 10. can we decide 7 already, seems like cune is pretty much a lock.

 

[kd24]

Celebi, Raikou, Cloyster or Dragonite are my official picks for the final 3 - deciding between Dnite and Cloyster is too tough for me, but let's hurry up and get Celebi number 8 cuz you're not going to find a better one.

 

[Magcargo]

Blissey seems like a number 8. Blissey literally destroyed all special attackers in GSC, RSE, and DPP. While it can still take the most powerful special moves, it falls to powerful physical hits like lucario's close combat and scizor's superpower. Nevertheless, blissey still remains a metagame changing pokemon, walling most special attackers.

 

[Jellicent]

Yeah, Suicune's locked at 7. Celebi at number 8.

Blissey, even though RBY Chansey isn't being looped in with it, should make it on the list, imo. While it's setup bait for a lot of Pokemon, its ability to switch in and wall almost any purely special sweeper makes it a dominating defensive threat. It also has a good variety of support moves, so there's quite a bit of versatility.

Forretress or Jirachi are what I lean mostly towards for the other spot, though there are quite a few contenders that I'd be happy with.

Magcargo2, BW isn't included in this list~

 

[kd24]

Yeah, Suicune's locked at 7. Celebi at number 8.

Blissey, even though RBY Chansey isn't being looped in with it, should make it on the list, imo. While it's setup bait for a lot of Pokemon, its ability to switch in and wall almost any purely special sweeper makes it a dominating defensive threat. It also has a good variety of support moves, so there's quite a bit of versatility.

Forretress or Jirachi are what I lean mostly towards for the other spot, though there are quite a few contenders that I'd be happy with.

Magcargo2, BW isn't included in this list~

ok i'm going to do my best to change your mind

in gsc, blissey is a weaker mon that aims to just support the team. it's not horrifically bad, but i dont see what it brings to the table thats so special. i havent seen it once in gsc

in comparison, raikou is unquestionable a top 3 mon in GSC, some would argue its almost as good as lax is and is proly #2

in adv, blissey is vital for walling some of the biggest threats and is actually a capable mon with a cm set as well.

but in adv, raikou can beat those same mons with calm mind like suicune and is fast enough to do serious damage without setting up. it also is a much better check vs threats like gengar who are almost uncounterable in advance. both are "weak" to dugtrio, so that issues seems like a wash to me

in dpp, blissey is a great mon but isnt the attacker it is in adv and just sits around stalling but once again, raikou is also great. it's popularity skyrocketed towards end of dpp, finding homes on teams as a scarfer and a strong fast cmer

gsc raikou is wayyyy better than gsc blissey
adv blissey is about equal to adv raikou
dpp blissey is slightly better than dpp raikou

i think raikous dominance in gsc only takes this for raikou

 

[Crystal_]

Dragonite without Wrap on RBY = Barely BL
Dragonite on GSC = Not great, not bad, avarage
Dragonite on ADV = Good, but not great, great.
Dragonite on DPP = Great

Alakazam without Wrap on RBY = Totally OU
Alakazam on GSC = Not great, not bad, avarage
Alakazam on ADV = Good
Alakazam on DPP = Good

Alakazam is pretty far from Dragonite in both GSC and ADV. And it's only UU in DP. I think it's very clear Zam should be out the discussion. No hating here, Zam is a very cool Pokemon but it just doesn't belong to this list at all.
And I don't agree with the fact that you considered RBY without Wrap. Okay, Wrap moves didn't work properly for a long time in the past, but right now Dnite is in OU where it should be. Although sometimes these moves may be banned I think we should be consistent with the fact that this is Smogon and in Smogon Wrap moves have always been allowed.

 

[Antihaxxer]

Alakazam in GSC was far better than Dragonite with Elemental Punch + Recover + Thunder wave + Psychic stab ... The only problem ? Blissey, Snorlax everywhere.

 

[Borat]

Alakazam in GSC was far better than Dragonite with Elemental Punch + Recover + Thunder wave + Psychic stab ... The only problem ? Blissey, Snorlax everywhere.

No.

 

[Awoken]

ok i'm going to do my best to change your mind

in adv, blissey is vital for walling some of the biggest threats and is actually a capable mon with a cm set as well.

but in adv, raikou can beat those same mons with calm mind like suicune and is fast enough to do serious damage without setting up. it also is a much better check vs threats like gengar who are almost uncounterable in advance. both are "weak" to dugtrio, so that issues seems like a wash to me

adv blissey is about equal to adv raikou

Not really, Blissey >>> Raikou in ADV. Raikou is a pretty bad defensively; it gets worn down with spikes, sandstorm, and no reliable recovery to check things like Gengar, and can only at best force a Calm Mind war with things like offensive Jirachi and Celebi, which CM Bliss can beat handily. It also can't take Earthquakes at all, whereas Blissey can serve as a last-ditch answer to things like Dragon Dance Salamence or Gyarados, living an HP[Flying] and firing back with an Ice Beam or Thunderbolt.
Most importantly, Raikou is extremely susceptible to Dugtrio. Jolly Dugtrio can switch into any move of Raikou (except the extremely uncommon Roar, which doesn't really do anything) and guarantee a KO, while Jolly Dugtrio doesn't even always 2HKO Blissey and risks being KOed by Ice Beam, being Toxic stall, even facing the uncommon Counter Blissey. Yes both are "weak" to Dugtrio, but Raikou's vulnerability to Dugtrio is like Skarmory's to Magneton, while Blissey's vulnerability is more comparable to Metagross's to Magneton (must be significantly weakened, cannot switch in, etc.).
That being said, Raikou is a more immediate offensive threat, but one that is held back by its crippling vulnerability to Dugtrio.

 

[Borat]

But Blissey's straight up bad in GSC. And if it weren't for so many mediocre players continually using it, it'd be BL. In fact, it is BL in the upper echelons of play.

 

[Awoken]

Though Raikou is undisputably better than Blissey in GSC, Raikou isn't close to comparable to Blissey in ADV, being maybe top 20 whereas Blissey is easily top 6. From my limited experience in DPP, Blissey is also far better there as a hard wall to the immensely powerful special attackers of the tier. On a whole, Blissey is at least equal to Raikou.

 

[Lavos]

blissey really should be above raikou on the list, there isn't much of a question about it. of course raikou's way better in gsc, but blissey's also way better in dpp, so to me it comes down to adv in order to determine which is above the other. raikou is a rather mediocre special sweeper that's beaten by a bunch of different stuff depending on what hidden power it's running. it's also beaten by any form of blissey, which is super common in adv, and for good reason. it's an absolutely integral pokemon on stall teams, which many old players regard as the best adv playstyle. blissey's also way more diverse, as it can run a cleric set, a wish set, or a calm mind set, compared to raikou, which only really has one set (ok it can run roar too but who does that). and as for the dugtrio argument, hell no it's not a wash are you kidding me? dugtrio straight up ohkos raikou, and it can switch in unexpectedly on a tbolt or calm mind to do that. blissey is barely 2hko'd by dugtrio, outside of sand it often isn't, and bliss can ohko duggy right back with either an invested ice beam or counter. raikou doesn't have that option. overall i think blissey's definitely the better pokemon.

 

[Jellicent]

in dpp, blissey is a great mon but isnt the attacker it is in adv and just sits around stalling but once again, raikou is also great. it's popularity skyrocketed towards end of dpp, finding homes on teams as a scarfer and a strong fast cmer

dpp blissey is slightly better than dpp raikou

Blissey was in the top ten most used for a good chunk of the generation, and was consistently in the top 15 Pokemon. Raikou was UU / BL for the entire generation and only started seeing a rise in usage after tiering for DPP ended, so I don't see how Blissey was only slightly more dominant... Also, Blissey's ability to sponge hits from any special attacker is the main reason Explosion and Trick are so common on them (neither of which Raikou was lucky enough to receive). It's also the face of stall...

While Blissey isn't an offensive powerhouse by any means, it does have a tendency to lure in physical attackers, and its movepool is fantastic. Over Seismic Toss, it can run Ice Beam, Flamethrower, or Thunderbolt. After Stealth Rock (which it can set up), it can lure out and damage beyond repair Gyarados, Scizor, Dragonite, and Flygon, all of which usually love coming in against Blissey. Ice Beam actually OHKOes Salamence after Stealth Rock. Like I said, it's not great, but it can still beat common switch-ins, which is always a boon.

 

[kd24]

i dont think you can measure something by usage because thats a horrendous way of determining power level. in the same way i dont think scizor is the best pokemon in dpp, i dont think blissey is as good as top 10 usage indicates. its role was to keep the extremely power sweepers like raikou in check but as dpp has progressed over time, i think players have shifted towards other mons to do so like celebi or pert which have offensive presence back. outside of stall and ipl's para team, you will probably not find many good players and teams in dpp using something like blissey randomly and i think that while you can list positive traits of blissey, you can do so for any mon. maybe i'm alone in thinking this, but i think you're severely overrating purely on usage statistics which is just foolish.

 

[Jellicent]

I'm not saying its better because of high usage, just a more dominant force in the metagame. The more often a Pokemon is used, the more the metagame is shaped around it. Blissey shaped the metagame much more than Raikou.

Also, comparing the two directly is difficult, seeing as one is offensive and the other's defensive. That said, I think Blissey has a much more dominant role on defensive teams than Raikou has on offensive teams.

 

[Jorgen]

Raikou for #9, Blissey for #10 is my opinion atm. Raikou is top 3 in GSC, can't leave something like that out of this list.

Blissey, on the other hand, has always had a constant presence, at least starting in ADV, that forced offenses to plan around it. In GSC it doesn't really matter since Snorlax, Raikou, and Miltank are everywhere anyway, but ADV onward it definitely shapes the metagame.

Sorry Forry/Cloy, your Spikes are nice but you're not that great.

 

[Borat]

From the sound of it, raikou/blissey are both OU in 2 gens and BL in one (stretch BL, but bl nonetheless). How is perennial 4 gens of OU dragonite not ousting them?

And if we're speaking not in terms of consistency, but in terms of dominance, Egg has 2 top 3s under its belt. Either egg or dragonite is more deserving, depending on your criteria

 

[asterat]

Dragonite was BL for gen 2 and gen 3 but I still think it deserves #9, with cloyster at #10. Leaving out raikou sucks but it was only top for 2 generations, really much less good in gen 4.

 

[Dre89]

It depends if you're talking about dominance historically or theoretically.

If wrap functioned on the old RBY simulators properly, and wrap had been the standard this whole time, then dragonite would have rivalled tauros as the "King of RBY" and would probably be an auto- entry on this list.

 

[Jorgen]

From the sound of it, raikou/blissey are both OU in 2 gens and BL in one (stretch BL, but bl nonetheless). How is perennial 4 gens of OU dragonite not ousting them?

And if we're speaking not in terms of consistency, but in terms of dominance, Egg has 2 top 3s under its belt. Either egg or dragonite is more deserving, depending on your criteria

Dragonite is hardly a "perennial" OU. It's historically BL in RBY and even now is still kind of seen as a gimmick, it's BL by name in GSC (and its OU power is very debatable), and it's been overshadowed by Mence in ADV and DPP. As a result, it's decisively BL in ADV and is only considered a top-tier OU threat in recent DPP now that all the better dragons are banned.

As for Egg, there's a far better argument for him. Basically mandatory on an RBY team, and a top-tier offensive threat in GSC. I think the biggest points against it are 1) its extremely sharp drop-off after GSC, which I'd say hurts it enough to be worse than just not existing for two generations; and 2) the variance of its performance in GSC that makes its position as a "top 5" quite debatable.

Say what you will about Blissey being nothing more than setup bait, but it's a known quantity in every match and the best at what it does. Offenses NEED to have a way to deal with it to be successful in ADV and DPP (it's basically an automatic member of most stall teams in these generations), and it was good enough in early GSC to make SkarmBliss a thing (and a moderately successful thing at that), even if the modern bias toward offense in GSC would lead you toward thinking it's total shit (which it isn't, that's hyperbole and you know it).

I'm going to expand on my decision of Raikou at #9; basically, imo it is a shoe-in for that slot. It's got top 3 status in GSC, is one of the most fearsome sweepers of ADV, and is apparently still pretty good in DPP. It doesn't have Eggy's severe drop-off; its peak is way more impressive than Blissey's (Blissey was always just kind of there, never outright defining a metagame but constantly shaping it in some way); and I'm not even going to dignify Dragonite because the fat dragon has no business on this list. Other things it could compare to include Jirachi, which Kou matches or surpasses in peak dominance and which Kou has beat on generation count; Forretress, which has always been a one-trick pony and not even necessarily the best at its job (just the most specialized); and Cloyster, which people seem inclined to dignify like Dragonite even though it faces an Egg-like drop-off in usefulness without ever really being as good as Egg was in RBY/GSC.

I'm more open to #10. However, on the surface, it feels wrong not to include Blissey, but I feel like that's in part because it has the stats and movepool to make it the perennial go-to special wall for generations to come, and not just because of its performance in GSC-DPP. That being said, the only real competitors I see for Blissey's slot are Jirachi and Forretress. Mayyybe Salamence too, although on second thought not really because it's kind of average in RSE whereas its dominance in DPP was very brief and the result of a metagame where tiering decisions were constantly in flux. As for other things people are bringing up, Egg's drop-off is too severe and everything else was never good enough to begin with.

 

[Dre89]

But with wrap dragonite would have rivalled tauros in terms of dominance.

I'm not talking about 'get it in on something sleeping straight away and set up' play. I'm talking about 'get rid of gengar and rocks, keep it hidden for end-game when they don't have enough HP to stall it' kind of play.