Data The Legend Run Open Source Project: Windswept Meadow Revamp (READ POST #46)

Frosty

=_=
is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnus
IMO:

Lackeys -> Non-Combat -> Combat -> Guardians -> Non-Combat -> Combat -> Guardians

With a chance of one Non-combat resulting in a rare encounter. TBH you can probably tailor the combat and non-combat encounters to be similar in potential damage so rng is less of a factor. So I wouldn't worry about it. But 2 combat scenarios are better to have more pokemon for the player to choose from.

and yes to safari balls.
 
we could do as frosty suggested, and instead of
"TBH you can probably tailor the combat and non-combat encounters to be similar in potential damage so rng is less of a factor."​
we could have rp1/3 share a pool of noncombat and rp2/4 share a pool of combat

rare encounter sounds pretty fun
 
More detail!

Theme-wise, a meadow seems fitting. Shaymin to me evokes tranquility, cherry blossoms and lilies in bloom, like so. I don't think it would make any sort of sense to stray away from rolling plains and calm meadows (which might be a problem later on with the inevitable Abomasnow / Pyroak / whatever encounter but I digress). Also echoing Safari Balls I guess, since they're supposed to work in tall grass here.

Wrt combat/non-combat encounters, I find it more aesthetically pleasing to have the possibility of rolling either an encounter or a non-combat RP for RP1 and then just having the opposite for RP2 as opposed to a determined Combat > Non-Combat > Guardians order, but I guess I'll be in the minority in that regard. In either case, at least one RP per pair should have an encounter, to have some semblance of uniformity wrt difficulty. God my English is awful today for some reason
 
We could make things more difficult for refs by exactly 2 rolls by having them roll for which rp to do first after the lackey and after the guardian. It could get a bit confusing, but I agree that it sounds better.

I was just worried about overloading RPs or overloading battles in certain runs.
 

Dogfish44

You can call me Jiggly
is a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a CAP Contributor
Moderator
General consensus I'm getting is that we should remove the forest section from the original, and go full meadow. General consensus is that we should do something to ensure 2 Combat / 2 Non-Combat. Nobody objected to the Rare Encounter, either - although we may wish to consider if it should be skippable (As they used to be) or not. For now, I'm just going to lock the structure - feel free to continue to discuss ways to change that slightly if you wish!

Windswept Meadow
Difficulty: Legendary
Prerequisites: None
Pokéballs: Safari Balls have an increased capture rate unless otherwise stated

RP Path:
Introduction --> Lackeys --> RP (Non Combat) --> RP (Combat) --> Guardians --> RP (Non Combat) --> RP (Combat) --> Boss
Both Non Combat RPs have a 15% chance to instead become a Rare Encounter. This can happen at most once.

General RPs:


RPs (Non Combat):


RPs (Combat):


Arenas:


Pokémon:


Alright, this is where we need to start making decisions.

  • What Types are we using here?
    I think the fact that we'll be using Grass mons is obvious - as is Flying tbh, but what other types should we consider when deciding mons? Should we ensure that all mons are either part-grass or part-flying, or should we add other types to the roster?
  • Lackeys?
    I've placeholdered for 3 above, but we should ask - how many do you fight, and how many is that RNG'd from? Note that the larger the pool we random from, the less guarenteed we can block some counters - but increasing pool size decreases predictability. Also, general ideas as to who people should actually be fighting.
  • Guardians?
    As above, but I've only placeholdered for 2.
  • Boss?
    As above again - we should also consider if, say, we may wish to add spawns and the like

Faster we get answers, the faster the TLR goes!
 
I for one would be opposed to going overboard on the Flying typing for NM at least. It's not like Flying synergizes extremely well with Grass offensively, and defensively it'd be a nightmare to fend off Ice-spam in doubles/triples when everything is weak to Blizzard. And I don't think just slapping on Pyroak would be the answer since that's only one mon out of maybe ten or fifteen idk.

Also, while we're at it, let's please avoid the obvious Grass/Flying guardian >_>. Basically take the above gripe about Blizzard in doubles and make it 4x weak instead of 2x. Not to mention that Jumpluff and Tropius are awful mons.
 

Frosty

=_=
is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnus
1) Typings:

Grass as main type. There are grass mons enough to overcome their weaknesses.

Flying as back-up type. Not as present as Grass, but there too to patch thing up.

If necessary, include some "forest defenders" mons. No specific typing, just mons that would flavorwise fit. depends on your needs tho.

In other words: Grass and Flying are good enough for the base of it. But don't limit yourself to only them.

2) Lackeys:

Grass mons and Flying mons can be worked with. Grass/Flying mons can't -_-.

I mean, Lileep is a grass type and works vs ice mons. Same with Ferroseed. For flying...uh...wingull and the like can also work. But I agree with YAS in the sense that Grass/Flying mons, frankly, suck.


For lackeys, tbh, I don't see the need for more than 2 options. Reasoning is: they are lackeys, they will lose anyway. Lackeys aren't there to "stop" anything really. So they being predictable isn't a bad thing (it is indifferent really). And I prefer to have the TLR plannable (is that a word?) on all instances it won't harm the overall experience.

Also PLEASE, no Fake Out/Encore users on the lackeys. It adds almost nothing to the difficulty, but it gives the player a powerful and cheap mon to work with.


3) Guardians:

2 Guardians work. No need to rely on rng not bringing that mon you need to crush the opposition.

I would be against background enemies or spawns, unless the latter is there as a anti-stall insurance. Spawn mons are...eh, I just don't like them very much. We can make ends meet with arena mechanics alone. No need to risk everything by including either a mon that can be used to stall against (most spawn) or a free damage user/support mon that, IMO, makes things harder in the least interesting way possible, as, most of the time, your best plan vs a background enemy (and I speak from a long RE experience with them) is "let's move on before this thing deals too much damage". And that kind of unescapable opposing mechanic lacks finesse and doesn't add much to the overall experience. It is just mean. Again: unless it is there as an anti-stall mechanism.

I don't know which mons would be good for the job. Depends on the arena-theme you have on the TLR. If no theme, then any combination of Grass + Flying work fine and dandy. I would just care to include at least one mega pokemon, as I feel the end result deserves one, at least if the player is going for Skymin.

4) Boss:

I suggest Togekiss + Skymin on an arena with sticky web, a "Serene Grace triples secondary effect chance" effect and a mechanic that turns Air Slash into a spread move.

<_<

I don't know. If we are playing by Skymin's strengths, that is the only mechanic I can think off :/.

As for spawns and background enemies, I am not as strongly against them here, as it is the final encounter. But I feel we can make ends meet through ther means.
 
I like the idea of a skippable rare encounter; that way it's cool for the player in that they aren't forced into an extra encounter that they weren't counting on, but if it's great for them they can choose to take the opportunity.

Uhhh, florges comes into mind as a grass-guardian, and there are usually plenty of bugs in a meadow. Imo we should focus on grasses, with a scattering of other types. Arena-flavor-wise, I don't see a need to really focus on flying, even though skymin is flying blah blah.

I agree Lackeys should be a set doubles fight as frosty said
 
In a bit of a rush right now so coherent thoughts will have to come later.

Anyways, if we're getting into the nitty-gritty of which mons go where, starting with the lackeys: I wouldn't be opposed to the lackeys being a 3v3 battle, with the mons RNG'd from a pool of 4. It's not like it'd be markedly more difficult than a 3v2 when all of the lackeys still die to Blizzard×3 or Heat Wave×3.

As far as the mons themselves, Skiddo, Deerling, Petilil and Cherubi fit flavor-wise and don't check any of Frosty's unwanted boxes while being cute, bland Grass-types. Alternatively, Sewaddle, Embirch, Fletchling and Roselia/Budew are all examples of mons that fit much better flavor-wise if you don't mind giving the player yet another mon with super-effective STAB against the entire TLR.

Which leads me to my next question: how much are we basing our choices on difficulty and how much on respecting our "theme"? For example, I think that from a purely technical standpoint, we should have encounters with Abomasnow and/or Cradily in sand at some point. However, it makes very little sense to have a blizzard or a sandstorm in the middle of a fucking meadow. How much are we willing to sacrifice difficulty for the sake of flavor?
 

Dogfish44

You can call me Jiggly
is a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a CAP Contributor
Moderator
Alright, thread is dying.

Lackeys:
I'm liking Cherubi/Deerling/Petilil, as long as Cherubi doesn't get Heal Pulse. Skiddo's out since Milk Drink is mandatory. Pick your two favourites from those in your posts, folks - or suggest other mons. Otherwise if there's no objections I'll just pick 2 so we don't spend too much time on our cannon fodder. Or we could go for all 3. Ideas, folks!

Guardians:
Florges and Pyroak come to mind here. Still looking for ideas, so yeah. Gib thoughts.

Boss:
Open idea of Shaymin & Mega Venusaur - MVenu isn't great vs most counters (Still whallops them though), but it'll handle any captured Guardians, and is an absolute pain to KO. See above.

---

Might as well open the other questions;

Rare Encounter
What's it going to be?

Combat RPs
Should these all be traps? Nests? Hordes? Also, what sort of typings do we want here?
 
cherubi / petilil seem easy enough to flavor (cherry blossoms lgi), but we might want the more physical specimen of deerling

i like florges / pyroak for guardians, could have flavor like part of the meadow is on fire or smthn and they blame humans for it. (idk just tossing ideas out there)

i have 0 experience with mvenu so idk; does it really handle pyroak?

rare encounter could be a bug type; i think you could justify finding a spider in a meadow easily enough. Or maybe a flying type because birds roost there yadda yadda.

i think the combat RPs should have different types of encounters (traps, nests, etc) in the pool
 

Frosty

=_=
is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnus
In terms of difficulty i think nests>hordes>traps. Unless you put on a nest of oddish or something along those lines.

Given it is skymin and we (read: I) dont want that many of them floating around haxxing us I would go with nests mostly and traps if necessary for flavor. Nests and hordes are kinda redundant imo, but that is me.

We should see a lot of ice/flying/fire mons with the ocasional bug and poison. We can probably afford like a lileep nest between guardians and bosses to dissuade people from stacking up on ice or fire (since neither get wide guard iirc). After the guardians because by then the player probably shouldn't have enough health to have the luxury of sticking the weak mons to rock in the back, while still giving a fair chance at evading much pain to the ones that managee to fill in their teams with goodies.

I feel that if we are going the nm/hm route then putting a potential mega on guardians should be considered. Unless we are afraid of it being caught to steamroll the opposition. Which is quite possible.

I am not sure if florges is best suited for guardians. Its typing doesnt counter anything and i think its huge spd is better suited to a singles matchup. I would put it as either a trap or a rare encounter. And put like ludicolo or braviary as guardian. We are lacking in flying.

More thoughts later when I am not to puke ^_^
 
Lackeys:
Pick your two favourites from those in your posts, folks - or suggest other mons.
Personally I'd be partial to having all three--either RNG from a pool of 3 or just fight all three at the same time.

For guardians, I think Ludicolo + Cradily could be a thing, just put in an arena effect where Storm Drain doesn't redirect Ludi's single target moves. They can both deal with Fires and Cradily deals with Ice- and Flying-types pretty well too, while Ludi has some all-important Ice coverage for fliers as well. The issue here might be giving the player another Fake Out user in Ludicolo in case we don't wanna do that. Alternatively, if we don't have a Cradily somewhere, Frosty's Lileep nest works very well too.

Also idk if I want an Abomasnow encounter anymore since the player can just catch it and wreck everything else from that point on with perma-hail, but still. It'd be nice to not auto-lose to Dnite.
 

LouisCyphre

heralds disaster.
is a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributor
Moderator
I maintain that having a harder mode for challengers who desire the Gracidea is highly important, given the huge difference between Shaymin and Skymin.

I don't think the guardians should share a typing at all; the current set of Ludicolo + Cradily folds to a team of Sludge Wave spammers (Nidoking + Dragalge + Tentacruel?). Cradily would be cooler to keep purely from an arbitrary standpoint, and its shortcomings can be finely adjusted using the arena.

I'd like to suggest Crobat, Xatu, Trevenant, Archeops, and Necturna (too much? maybe only during hard mode) as alternative guardians. They each:
  1. Have virtues that help them check possible counters to the TLR: Crobat and Xatu are not Fire-Weak and handle potential Bug-type challengers (Heracross in particular)
  2. Offer significant disruption to put challengers' ordering/subbing skills to the test (Archeops' Rock Slide, even!)
  3. Synergize offensively with Cradily, but not defensively. Depending on which partner you get, the mons will be susceptible to a couple (2-4) but not all spread moves, which is desirable.
  4. Are rarely seen competitively in ASB and bring that necessary cool factor (except Necturna of course). Also gives them the possibility to surprise unwary opponents! "Since when does X learn Y?"
Lastly, I'm of the opinion that guardians should be pulled from a pool. Whether they should be pulled randomly, pseudo-randomly, based on set criteria ("IF Togetic was defeated first in the lackey battle, THEN (...) ), or by ref discretion is for a later discussion.
 

Dogfish44

You can call me Jiggly
is a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a CAP Contributor
Moderator
Lackeys:
Cherubi/Deerling/Petilil it is then

NM RNG 2/3, HM fight all 3 seems good. Lord knows they all die to Sludge Wave/Air Cutter/Heat Wave, but c'st la vie.

Guardians:
My favourite of Lou's suggestions is Xatu, since it's substantially harder to Heal Pulse. As long as it's not given Roost, it can't be such a bastard of a counter to the remainder of the TLR (Although you could bounce Heal Pulses off it... eh). I need suggestions for NM and HM splits here. Remember that we can have Guardians simply not drop their respective Mega Stone (Think Mega Pidgeot, etc.)

Incidentally, I'm partial to not having RNG influence the pool here. Again, thoughts please.

Boss:
Shaymin/MVenusaur on NM, and Skymin + Supporting Mega on HM. Maybe re-using MVenusaur? Again, ideas please -.-'

Traps & Nests:
I don't get paid every time I ask for ideas, but it makes my life easier. Right now I've got 'Ludicolo', 'Abomasnow maybe' and 'Lileep Nest'.

Rare Encounter:
If nobody suggests anything then I'll decide it at my whim. Please don't do that to yourselves.
 

LouisCyphre

heralds disaster.
is a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributor
Moderator
Mega Venusaur as the support on hard mode? It's a great status platform for paraflinch weakening key targets and it's neutral to Fire and Ice that skymin loathes.

Shaymin-Land Forme should be supported by a flyer, I think. Gyarados is Flying-type! Something like the original Archeops?

Ludicolo opening with Whirlpool and Leech Seed would be a nasty trap. I like it. Abomasnow would be interesting, but HIGHLY effective against the boss... perhaps too much so?
 
13:04 YAS alternatively necturna also makes sense for a rare encounter
13:04 <YAS> altho it doesn't do much that's new either
13:04 <Lou> bug neutral
13:04 <Lou> ;v
13:05 <YAS> and poison neutral
13:05 <Lou> with sketched trick-or-treat that goes away when you catch it! /shot
13:05 <YAS> why trick-or-treat over soak tho?
13:05 <YAS> ._.
13:06 <Lou> soakturna is stronger
13:06 <Lou> extremely so in a 1v1 situation
13:06 <Skyla> ooh Necturna trap that uses Soak ~ filler in HM
13:06 <Skyla> that would be awesome
13:06 <Lou> ToT on NM and Soak on HM then
13:06 <YAS> dogfish44: thoughts on soak/trick or treat necty?
13:07 <Skyla> Soak ~ Gravity in HM imo
13:08 <Rainman> Soak necty trap that takes their special attacker
13:09 <YAS> dogfish44 if you don't have an opinion on this I'll just post it on the thread
13:09 <Skyla> Necturna teleports away with <Mon with the highest SpA> and proceeds to Soak them before increasing the Gravity in the area. It will take you 2 rounds to catch up.
13:09 <Skyla> that would be mean
13:09 <YAS> c:
13:09 <YAS> Skyla: what no
13:09 <YAS> "mon with lowest Atk"
13:09 <YAS> much better
Basically Soak Necturna on HM, Trick-Or-Treat Necty on NM.
 

Frosty

=_=
is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnus
If you are putting Necturna to trap a mon it is a trap, not a rare encounter. Similarly, Rare Encounters don't usually have trap moves, although I am guilty of breaking that rule myself, so nvm it.

I like Necturna for a rare encounter otherwise. It is one of the very few grass mons that can perform well on a 1vs1 vs pretty much any opposing mon thanks to soak. I don't see the need for trap moves tho. Perhaps in HM, but in NM it is hardly necessary, given a biased arena is already a must, imo.

I personally don't see that much use for Abomasnow. All mons we have considered thus far (sans the lackeys, since lol lackeys) can fight Dragonite (either with strong stabs or with rock moves or Ice Beam or even Soak). TBH if you REALLY REALLY REALLY REALLY want it, I feel that a mega abomasnow on the boss encounter is the way to go. As long as you put it on a combo 1/1 arena for sheer cold + blizzard goodness, that is.

And I reiterate that lileep nest is a good thing. Although, since I saw a Stunfisk nest around (330hp to take down before the boss, ouch), you can probably just make it a cradily nest and see as hilarity ensues.


Also tangrowth. Dunno where to put it or how would it fit. But I feel I have the personal duty of bringing it up.
 

Dogfish44

You can call me Jiggly
is a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a CAP Contributor
Moderator
Well this died. Lackeys are still as before.

Guardians:
Xatu + Cradily for Normal Mode, Mega Pidgeot + Cradily for Hard Mode.

Boss:
Shaymin + Venusaur on Normal Mode, Skymin + Mega Venusaur on Hard Mode.

Traps & Nests:
  • Nest: Flarelm
  • Nest: Lileep
  • Trap: Ludicolo (Leech Seed + Whirlpool, mon with highest HP)
  • Trap: Florges (Worry Seed + Covet, mon with lowest ATK)

Rare Encounter:
Necturna

Alright folks, speak now, or forever hold your peace!
 

Frosty

=_=
is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnus
To be entirely honest I would put Mega Pidgeot on Normal Mode. Heck, Rare Candy Xatu has similar power, helps against poison types and actually has something resembling a movepool to work with, so it is probably better for that role.

Personally I would rather have Mega Aerodactyl on that slot. Not only it mixes well with Cradily (both flavorwise and strategywise, thanks to storm drain), but also it is a pretty good doubles mon, fits the theme of the end boss (flinch :)) AND isn't that threatening in the long run thanks to neutrality against grass typing.

But seriously, there are several non-mega mons better than Mega Pidgeot -_-. For a Hard mode I don't think it is deserving, unless you intend to put this at a low difficulty overall.

One other thing is Venusaur on NM. Normally it would be fine and dandy. The thing is: Xatu tears it a new one for the most part, so I am not sure if it is worth it putting a mon on boss if its nemesis is on guardians ready to be used against it. I would consider Togekiss instead of Venusaur NM (keeping Mega Venu on HM), since Shaymin is Grass only, leaving the flying slot open, and because Togekiss at least has the movepool to fight back against all potentially catchable pokemon.


aside from those two points, this seems fine and dandy.
 

Dogfish44

You can call me Jiggly
is a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a CAP Contributor
Moderator
That makes sense. Lord knows it'd be much nicer for them to give us, say, Mega Staraptor. If anyone has any other complaints/comments, raise them now, or I will laugh at you later.

Lackeys:
2 of Cherubi / Petilil / Deerling on NM, all 3 on HM.

Guardians:
Xatu + Cradily for Normal Mode, Mega Aerodactyl + Cradily for Hard Mode.

Boss:
Shaymin + Togekiss on Normal Mode, Skymin + Mega Venusaur on Hard Mode.

Traps & Nests:
  • Nest: Flarelm x3
  • Nest: Lileep x3
  • Trap: Ludicolo (Leech Seed + Whirlpool, mon with highest HP)
  • Trap: Florges (Worry Seed + Covet, mon with lowest ATK)

Rare Encounter:
Necturna
 

Dogfish44

You can call me Jiggly
is a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a CAP Contributor
Moderator
So, this is a thing.

Since no objection to the above has been listed in 5 Months, I'm going to assume it's kosher. As such, the above listed mons need profiles. Use this format below if you feel like making some profiles!

Code:
[hide=Species][plain][hide=Species][img]http://play.pokemonshowdown.com/sprites/bw/species.png[/img]
[b]Species (X)[/b] (Or (-) for genderless mons)

[b]Item:[/b] XXX
[b]Drop:[/b] XXX

[b]Nature:[/b] XXX
+1 XXX, -1 XXX

[b]Type:[/b] XXX / XXX

[b]Abilities:[/b] XXX / XXX / XXX [Hidden]

[b]Stats:[/b]
HP: X
Atk: X
Def: X
SpA: X
SpD: X
Spe: X
CHP: X
Size Class: X
Weight Class: X
Base Rank Total: X

EC: X/X (Or N/A)
MC: 
AC: X/X (Or N/A)

[b]Attacks:[/b]
<ALL LEVEL-UP MOVES FROM ALL GENERATIONS IN ALPHABETICAL ORDER. ALL OF THEM>

<FIVE EGG MOVES: DON'T INCLUDE ENDURE, SELF-HEALING MOVES, SLEEP TALK OR SNORE. PICK STRONG/USEFUL ATTACKS OVERALL. IF NO EGG MOVES USE TUTOR MOVES FROM ALL GENS WITH SAME LIMITATIONS>

<FIVE XYTM MOVES: PROTECT MUST BE ONE OF THEM. DON'T INCLUDE ENDURE, SELF-HEALING MOVES, SLEEP TALK OR SNORE. PICK STRONG/USEFUL ATTACKS OVERALL>[/hide][/plain][/hide]
In addition, now would be a good time to start considering ideas for the four non-combat RPs, and throwing them into the thread.
 
Is this project still alive? I am more than willing to help out, by the way, but my inexperience with TLR's sort of limits my expertise to profile building.
 
Hey guys, it's kind of ludicrous how long the renovation of this TLR has taken. We've been working on this project for nearly 2.75 years; all relevant profiles have been completed for almost five months; we've technically had a workable encounter structure for about twenty-two months; and two newer TLR's have been released since I finished writing the profiles for this one (Genesect's TLR was even released on the day its profiles were approved). With these factors in mind, what, exactly, has prevented us from launching Windswept Meadow by now?
 

Users Who Are Viewing This Thread (Users: 1, Guests: 0)

Top