Data The Legend Run Open Source Project: Windswept Meadow Revamp (READ POST #46)

Its_A_Random

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It has been 3000 years...

Anyhow as you might have known, Windswept Meadow—the Shaymin TLR—was closed 458674856754968596 months ago and was supposed to have been revamped. But with the original creator "gone", DF and I busy with other projects, and no one really expressing some remote interest in taking on a revamp job i wonder why, I have decided to Open Source the revamp of this dungeon.

Because the data is as long as DJD's post telling BMB his Aurumoth CAP was shit, you may find the old TLR in all its glory here.

To summarise the structure of the TLR:

Lackeys → Pick/Do not pick the flower → 2× Field RP → Guardians → Tree of the future → 2× Grass RP → Special shearing RP if you picked up the flower → 2× Forest OR Pond RP (Depending on tree) → Boss.

Before we get to the nitty gritty of the revamp, first I want to get some things settled down:
  • The Structure of the TLR. What changes should we make to the structure of the TLR? Is it too long, too short, or just right?
  • Since this TLR was closed, a special item called the Gracidea was introduced as a way of codifying the Forme changes for Shaymin. How different should the TLR be if the player was to pick up the Gracidea? How harder should the TLR be? When should the player have the option to pick up the Gracidea? Obviously it should disappear if Skymin is not caught but yeah.
  • How difficult do you feel the pre-vamp TLR is? Too hard? Too easy? Just right? Do bear in mind that this is an Uber Level TLR which has default combination timers of 2/3 Status/Damaging.
These questions should help define the TLR before we get around to constructing the TLR revamp. I will handle the Lackeys/Guardians/Boss and other mandatory RP's so need to worry about those.

Fire away well whoever has a remote interest anyway!
 
Ah Windswept Meadow...

To put it simply, I think this dungeon was way too hard and long for the Pokemon you get out of it. Yes Shaymin-S is a very solid Pokemon, but worth an entire Uber dungeon? For a Pokemon whose coverage consists of Grass, Flying, Ground, Psychic, and Hidden Power (ok and Dazzling Gleam)? No way.

To answer the specific inquiries.

The Structure of the TLR. What changes should we make to the structure of the TLR? Is it too long, too short, or just right?
As stated before, the dungeon is a bit too long. Since then we've more or less codified how long a typical TLR should be. That said, I think it should keep relatively the same format, just with a few less extra roleplays (cut the tree of the future and shearing rp and we'd be pretty close). At least, that's the case if we decide to keep it Uber difficulty

Since this TLR was closed, a special item called the Gracidea was introduced as a way of codifying the Forme changes for Shaymin. How different should the TLR be if the player was to pick up the Gracidea? How harder should the TLR be? When should the player have the option to pick up the Gracidea? Obviously it should disappear if Skymin is not caught but yeah.
Given the relative strength of Shaymin to the rest of the legendaries in the game, I honestly think we should demote this to a Legendary dungeon. The best way to pull this off would be something similar to Almaz Mine, make the dungeon of moderate difficulty if you're just going for regular Shaymin, then make it almost Uber difficulty if you go for the Shaymin-S (I wouldn't make it as hard as Almaz Mine becomes though, Shaymin to Shaymin-S is less of a leap in power than Diancie to Mega Diancie). Naturally, this means the Gracidea should be picked at the start before the Lackeys.

How difficult do you feel the pre-vamp TLR is? Too hard? Too easy? Just right? Do bear in mind that this is an Uber Level TLR which has default combination timers of 2/3 Status/Damaging.
Again, too hard for something like Shaymin. Shaymin is a good Pokemon, really good, but does it really compare to stuff like Reshiram and Kyogre? Uber Level is just too much for this thing.

Just my two cents on the matter.
 

Mowtom

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I agree with Maxim wrt to dungeon difficulty. Base Shaymin is good, but not above the level of Deoxys or on the same level as the Lati twins. It should be legendary, with an option at the beginning to make it much harder for Shaymin-S. As such, this legend run is much too long, and should be cut down to probably something like:

Pick/Do not pick the flower → Lackeys → RP1 → RP2→Guardians → RP3→RP4→Boss.
 

Its_A_Random

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So basically what you guys want will be to reduce the length of WM to standard length and to demote the difficulty of it to Legendary, correct?

Also it would be really lovely if there was more participation in this; the more responses we get in a smaller period of time, the faster we can get this thing ready. Okay?
 

Frosty

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Regular Shaymin is certainly worse than the Regis IMO (horrible movepool, meh abilities, good but not GREAT stats). Since it is more hyped, I would aim at Regis as far as difficulty level goes. Lower than Diancie because the rock/fairy mon has certainly more perks.

Skymin is...eh. I find Mega Diancie (and Mega Lat@s) to be way way worse, but I suppose that speed and serene grace may warrant some limitations. I would do something like Almaz Mine, only with it being possible to trainers that don't have/wanna use their master balls 9_9.


Regarding the TLR itself, my first reaction was: I am not going to read all of it -_-.

But I did regardless.

It is obscenely huge. To the point of being 100% ridiculous. The run is huge as is the data. While all those options are nice and funky, it makes it really hard to read. And I thought DNA had tons of rooms -_-.

To answer the questions:

  • The Structure of the TLR. What changes should we make to the structure of the TLR? Is it too long, too short, or just right?

Too Long and too...uh...spread? dunno the right word here. There are too many possibilities within possibilities. A Scenario usually can result in three different outcomes based on luck and there are a shitload of scenarios to choose from, making the end result a tad too much.

I would do as mowtom said and go Lackeys → RP1 → RP2→Guardians → RP3→RP4→Boss. I would include 1 or 2 extra RPs in case of Gracidea instead of bumping the difficulty of all encounters up, as I find it easier to control how harder I want it to be that way (although Boss and maybe guardians should be a little bit more difficult if Gracidea).

There are too many scenarios options. I like the idea of many possibilities, but this has too many. You can probably keep the several hazards the TLR has (deducing from the number of traps as applicable) without resorting to a gazillion scenarios.


  • Since this TLR was closed, a special item called the Gracidea was introduced as a way of codifying the Forme changes for Shaymin. How different should the TLR be if the player was to pick up the Gracidea? How harder should the TLR be? When should the player have the option to pick up the Gracidea? Obviously it should disappear if Skymin is not caught but yeah.

I don't see the new Gracidea as something special to be considered. If Gracidea (or whatever other item you use as trigger) is picked, you include 1 or 2 extra RPs and bump the difficulty of the Boss (maybe the guardians too, although I'd rather not, unless you include only 1 more RP). I dunno what to compare it to, but the end result should be a tad easier than Almaz Mine HM (I was going to say "Regular Lati@s level", but then I remembered that TPF probably could use a toning down itself...). But really, apart from the 100% annoying serene grace air slash, Skymin isn't that much of a big deal, as it doesn't hit THAT hard (you can probably hit harder with most A-rank mons and their signature items), has horrible coverage and bad typing. Only bonus is speed and serene grace and even then I would probably prefer to use Togekiss as my haxer of choice.

  • How difficult do you feel the pre-vamp TLR is? Too hard? Too easy? Just right? Do bear in mind that this is an Uber Level TLR which has default combination timers of 2/3 Status/Damaging.

Uh...

The sheer number of encounters made it a bit hard. I won't say "too hard", as, if I remember correctly, Lad managed to reach Skymin with a still-somewhat-alive team, which was a big deal considering it was the secret era and the TLR wasn't scouted (or scouted properly). The encounters itself (looking at you guardians) are easy and the mons are eh. The problem lies on the big number of encounters and how it is too luck based (partly due to size and partly due to it being hidden before). If you remove some of the encounters and with the newfound sunlight, the odds are that you will need to increase the power of the mons for the difficulty level to be just right. Simplying cutting fat will result in an easy TLR IMO.
 

Its_A_Random

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Okay time to move this on.
  • Windswept Meadow will be downgraded to Legendary Difficulty.
  • Windswept Meadow will adopt the standard legendary dungeon format of Lackeys → RP1 → RP2 → Guardians → RP3 → RP4 → Boss.
  • For ease of first round updates, the Gracidea pickup will be before the Lackey Fight though I am thinking of having it in the same RP with a choice to pick it up etc.
  • Picking up the Gracidea will result in a harder TLR though both modes should not be as difficult as Almaz Mine or something.
  • I am not fully sure on whether to make RP's more difficult or add extra RP's for Gracidea takers though.
Okay with that in mind, there is a bit more discussion to do.

The major talking point here is how we will structure the RP's in terms of choices and whatnot. To give a gist of what I am talking about, here are a few routes we could take (these are not all the routes):
  • Fully Linear Dungeon (Though not exactly due to Gracidea): The easiest approach in terms of effort and time. This allows for a concrete structure and allows us to get a consistent difficulty level. The main issue is that these tend to have easier TLR's because there is no perceived "Fake Difficulty" which can result in easy mapping. This is not necessarily a bad thing though. There are a couple of ways to go about this, each introducing a little more randomness:
    • Fixed locations.
    • RP's can be done in any order.
    • The RP's are done randomly.
    • etc.
  • Branched Linear Dungeon: Basically the above but Gracidea takers take on completely different RP's. A bit more resource expensive but can allow for further specialisation. We could also do Ruined Eden style and have options after each major and have separate RP's.
  • Random RP Dungeon: Basically we create a bank of possible scenarios (Either one big pool or two or more smaller pools for parts of a TLR) with possible branching for Gracidea takers. This increases unpredictability and generally paves the way for fake difficulty and can be expensive depending on pool size and number of pools but unpredictability is not a bad thing and can be a good way to make something a bit more difficult by default because the player does not know what is coming.
  • Choose Your Own Adventure Dungeon: See above but with randomness taken out and the player having a say in where to go next, therefore removing the fake difficulty aspect from not knowing what comes next. This can also allow for dynamic difficulty where taking on harder RP's can result in an easier ride at the major encounters. The other big advantage is that we can throw in something like the Mewtwo RP in DNA for another legend and not force people to do it. There are two ways to go about it:
    • DNA-Style: Choose your next RP but have some sort of structure in where to go next.
    • Fully CYOA: Basically pick any RP to do next.
  • Anything else I missed.
We need to pick a structure and no matter what we pick, it is possible to incorporate the Gracidea aspect of the TLR.

The other thing we need to do is decide how people get the Gracidea for good whether it be by catching Skymin or simply winning the boss battle or something else.

That is all I can think of for now. Fire away folks!
 

Geodude6

Look at my shiny CT!
What do you guys think about adding a couple of Flying-types to the Lackey pool? I'm thinking Wingull @ Durin Berry and Pidove @ Yache Berry. This would be added to the "current" pool of Chikorita, Treecko, and Turtwig. I also think we should replace Chikorita's Swords Dance with Natural Gift.

Also, I'm a fan of implementing the Linear Branching style like AM (but for ppl without master balls)
 
Personally, I am partial to random rp dungeon; I liked when TLRs where "secret", and needed to be scouted out properly before a successful attempt at the legendary could be made. It gave ASB that thrill of a new, unexplored adventure; I could compare it to when settlers would cross oceans for months not knowing what exactly to expect!

We can't really bring that this "secret" aspect of TLRs back due to obvious reasons, but by choosing Random RP Dungeons, we get the next best thing; the trainer, while being able to check the possible RPs she/he might encounter, won't know exactly what to expect until it happens!

If we were to implement Random RP Dungeon style, and we wanted to stick to matching this revamp as close to the old TLR as possible, we could have two pools for possible RPs [grass/field rps and forest/pond rps], with the first two RPs pulling from the former pool, and the last two RPs pulling from the latter pool. But, that's my suggestion if we want to movie the previous version (if we want to get this done quicker hah)

(Also Geodude6 I think we've got a few more steps to get through before we get to the actual Pokemon in the TLR)
 
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Random bump time.

Personally, I'm a fan of more linear type dungeons for TLRs in general, because it allows the player to come up with a strategy for how to beat the TLR. What I really dislike about random dungeons is that not only is it incredibly resource intensive (just look at Deoxys) but it also allows for fake difficulty. I think we should be focusing more on real difficulty, essentially picking traps and such that are difficult to find 3 Pokemon that answer everything, but at least a team of 3 that can do moderately well. In a case like Shaymin, I'd prefer to see a Branched Linear Dungeon to create more challenge for those going Shaymin-S. It should not be a dramatic increase in difficulty like Mega Diance, but a jump nonetheless.

That being said, there's something I want to address here. How should we distribute evolution items such as the Gracidea for those who have Shaymin? While I know nobody has a Shaymin yet, I can see issues with legendaries getting a primal/mega/etc in the future and then that person would have to...capture another version of that legendary just to get the item? It seems a little silly. I'd like to see a way to get the Gracidea without Shaymin.
 

Dogfish44

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My thoughts would be to go Almaz Style - Normal Mode and Hard Mode, picked before anything else.

Something along the lines of
Mode Choice --> Lackeys --> RP 1 --> RP 2 --> Guardians --> RP 3 --> RP 4 --> Boss

With a pool of, say, 5 RPs (NM and HM) for RP1 and RP2 to pull from, and a seperate pool of 5 RPs for RP3 and RP4. Shaymin I think we shouldn't have completely linear - a little bit of randomness, using the Lackeys and Guardians as the main point for which we prevent complete counterteams.

I think that Gracidea should be unlocked by beating the HM boss. I don't have a problem with people having to rerun the gauntlet (Doing NM to catch then HM for Gracidea), but having to capture seems counter-productive.

lateedit: Uh, I believe that's a Random RP Dungeon, effectively. I passed reading comprehension, promise!
 
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Dogfish44

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I'm going to take over leading the discussion here then. Gracidea is a Shaymin-HM Drop, that can be gained by beating WMHM.

00:34:04 ~ <&dogfish44> @pick Shaymin's TLR will be of the Branched Linear Style, Shaymin's TLR will be of the Random RP Style
00:34:05 ~ <+ASBot> Shaymin's TLR will be of the Random RP Style

---

Alrighty then!

Our RP Path, as stands, is

Mode Choice --> Lackeys --> RP 1 --> RP 2 --> Guardians --> RP 3 --> RP 4 --> Boss

I think this opens the following questions;

  • Should we use separate RP Pools for RP1/2 and RP3/4, or do we want one large pool?
  • Should HM be differentiated in the # of RPs you go through, or the difficulty of said RP?
  • Should HM influence the difficulty of Lackeys, Guardians, and the Boss?

Please answer these questions openly ^^'
 
I like the idea of a single pool for rp1/rp2 and another one for rp3/rp4

Differentiate by difficulty probably, because having too many RPs means a: more to make and b: longer TLR (and those are long enough)

I think arena/movepools on guardians/lackeys should be harder on HM, but the boss will probably be painful enough on NM and we do want the thing to be catchable.
 
  • Should we use separate RP Pools for RP1/2 and RP3/4, or do we want one large pool?
Oh look! A wild self-answer appeared!
With a pool of, say, 5 RPs (NM and HM) for RP1 and RP2 to pull from, and a seperate pool of 5 RPs for RP3 and RP4.
I think this is pretty much an ideal scenario, maybe not exactly five RPs for each set since they might be a bit too resource-intensive (since I'm advocating for tweaked scenarios between NM and HM, but that's a point to be made later), but at least have a pool of 3-4 scenarios shared between RP1 and RP2, then a separate pool for RPs 3 and 4. Having one large pool for all of them just seems muddled to me, and having that tiny bit of structure should make for a good balance with the unpredictability of random scenarios.

As for the change in difficulty between the scenarios themselves, I think it'd be best to have the same number of scenarios for NM and HM but with an adjustment in difficulty. So, the basic gist of the RP stays the same instead of having to rewrite the whole thing, but with a marked difficulty hike. This I believe should affect all encounters, boss and guardians included, since in the end it's encounters that determine the actual difficulty of the thing.

Also, it's not like Skymin has the best coverage or the most tricks outside of annoying Air Slash hijinks, so players should have an easy enough time counterteaming the thing, to the point where I don't think that a simple "oh btw the guardians spawn a lotad every three rounds" will make up for the jump from NM to HM. We don't even need to be ham-fisted about it and change the mons substantially or anything, we can follow the example from DNA to an extent and give one of the guardians a mega stone instead of its regular item, or alternatively buff the arena effrcts substantially in subsequent encounters.

EDIT: I'm passing out right now so let me know if any of the above doesn't make sense outside of a sleep-deprived context
 

JJayyFeather

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1) Keeping pools for RP1/RP2 separate from pools for RP3/RP4 sounds like a good idea to me

2) Same sized pools for the RPs whether it is in NM or HM, EDIT @ Below: Make them harder in HM

3) I think opting to take the Gracidea should make the whole TLR more difficult, but with a noted way the encounter becomes more difficult. For example, in DNA, the guardian fight becomes more difficult if you chose 'easy' RPs for RP1 and RP2 with a specific way to make it harder. I like this idea throughout. I also really like the idea of Shaymin sensing the Gracidea and taking it from you and becoming Shaymin-S before the boss fight begins, similar to how Latios and Latias know when you decide to take the Soul Dew in TPF
 
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2) Same sized pools for the RPs whether it is in NM or HM
I think the question is less about the size of the pools and more about whether HM should have more RPs than NM or just harder RPs. doggie pls correct me if I'm wrong I haven't slept well this week
I had more comments but then I realized I'm not sure if I read them wrong. Carry on.
 

Dogfish44

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Uh, my poor wording. One option was to have;

Paths said:
RP Path (NM):
Gracidea --> Lackeys --> RP1 --> RP 2 --> Guardians --> RP3 --> RP4 --> Boss

RP Path (HM):
Gracidea --> Lackeys --> RP1 --> RP 2 --> RP3 --> Guardians --> RP4 --> RP5 --> RP6 --> Boss
The other option would be just to make HM have all RPs be objectively more difficult - this seems to be what most people are advocating for, so yeah.

It'd also be generally useful to see what size people want each pool of RPs to be - both for if we go one-big-pool style, or two-pool style.

---

These are structural questions, so I'd like to get these finished by Friday?
 

Frosty

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Whatever option is the shortest. Increase the difficulty of the encounters if necessary, but we don't need a long TLR to make it harder, especially since longer means with more opportunities to catch up.
 
Echoing Frosty and my past self from last night: HM should have the same number of RPs, just harder through increased sacrifices/jacked arena effects/background opponents/spawns, etc. For the pool size, I'd say either 3 or 4 RPs per pool (keeping two separate pools of course). 4 RPs in particular sounds like an ideal number but I may elaborate further on this later.
 

Dogfish44

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Alright, general consensus;

  • RP1/2 will pull from a pool of 4. RP3/4 will pull from a separate pool of 4.
  • Hard Mode will be numerically more difficult than NM, but of the same length. This will also make lackeys/guardians more difficult.

Next step might seem a bit early, but we should establish a coherent theme, which will guide our decisions for flavour later. We can also answer another important question whilst we're at it...

Theming and Setup
  • In what general setting is this TLR? The original Shaymin was a Meadow/Forest hybrid - should be carry on with that?
    • Any special Pokéballs (Safari, Park, Sport, etc.) in effect?

RP1/2/3/4
  • Should all RPs result in combat or damage?
  • If no, should we force at least 1 RP per pair to involve combat?

Basically, 'to what extent are we caring about fake difficulty'. If we have some RPs without damage and some with, then that can theoretically be a problem, since some players will have objectively more difficult runs. otoh, we can just ignore this and move along.
 
i think all of one pool could be damage/combat while the other could be all other stuff;

or maybe we just want damage > damage > guardian > damage > damage (which i dont really like)
 

JJayyFeather

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I'm thinking have RP1 and RP3 be non-combat pools while RP2 and RP4 are the Traps/Nests/Hordes. Having all RPs do damage isn't the worst possible idea, it would just spread the challenge around more, but I like the idea of 1 per pair being a combat RP
 
the problem with "1 per pair being combat" is bs rng which will make things unfair for certain players because luck of the dice screws them over.

a player could get neither combat rp that way, or they could get all combat RPs; the only control given the types we voted is to restrict the pool to be all one type, and then change the other pool.

OR we could change things that rp1/rp3 share a pool, and rp2/rp4 share a pool.

~~~

oh yeah, I like the idea of meadow etc; which i guess would mean safari balls?
and i am strongly in favor of each pool being mostly homogeneous in composition, because rng rng rng.
 
I'll put more detail into this later, but I think Encounter > Encounter > Guardians > Encounter > Encounter, with the only difference being "oh you fight ludicolo instead of roserade this time" sounds very very boring. I'm aware that encounters are what make the runs challenging and all, but I think the reduced difficulty of non-combat RPs could be circumvented by either having 3 encounters / 1RP per pool or having 2 encounters / 2RPs with the proviso that if a non-combat RP is rolled the first time, the second RP must be one of the two encounters.

EDIT: Also, just have the non-combat RPs be jacked so they're not easy wins ._.
 

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