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If they are Steel and attack on the turn you Rock Tera, they've oneshot your Loom and removed your Tera from the future.
If you don't Tera, and they Tera Acro, you know their set and can bring in another mon to kill from there. Plus you keep your Tera for the future. You disregarding options that can give you a better position is reductive at best. Especially since if they switch, they lose their Booster Energy boost, weakening their mon in the future.
If I'm Steel RM, I will never choose to Iron Head a Breloom because I'm never going to assume Breloom's Tera typing is Rock in the first place.
If their only check to Steel RM is Breloom, then I'm more than satisfied to lose my Booster Energy to keep my RM alive 100% of the time.
If I'm Flying RM, I will never not Acro because I'm never risking the chance of getting hit by Spore.
If I kill Loom with Acro and they bring something like Chien-Pao to revenge kill. I'm more than happy to switch out my RM, and come in later when I've gotten rid of their speed control.
The Breloom player is the only one who has to make high roll plays here, or just accept that Breloom does not answer RM.
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Honestly I actually find Tera quite balanced.
Type changing as a mechanic inherently favours defensive play, but the power boost and free coverage is there to incentivise offensive play.
But I want Tera to be banned even if it is not broken at the current moment just because of technicality.
As long as it is still around, this debate is going to continue when we have the suspect test for the next broken abuser of it, and the next, and the next.
And when it eventually get banned one day (it will once there are enough collateral damage), there will be voices of testing said collateral damage mons we banned along the way back down to OU, which just feels so backwards as a process.
I think it is WAY too early to be making a big, binary decision about Terra, especially considering that one of the main topics brought up on both sides is unpredictability. Terra is not only not Dynamax but not even remotely comparable to Dynamax, which was a brainless "instant sweep/tank" button only consistently beatable with another Dynamax and I think a lot of people have forgotten how bad it really was. The community seems very split on this, and I'd like to see a bit longer of a sample period than a week before such a major decision is made on such a major mechanic.
Kudos to the council for wanting to speed things up this generation! I do appreciate that and I think a lot of people do as well. Judging by the Policy Review thread, smogon Mods seem pretty equally split on what to do, so I don't really envy OU leaderships position, but I think a ban at this time would be a big mistake.
Most of the above only applies to the "quick ban or nothing" mindset a vocal group of people seem to have, the team preview solution in particular is one I'd like to see tried more than anything
Again, the meta is still unstable. We won't be able to determine the effects of Tera until it is a less volatile game.
Additionally, both sides get Tera. If one user sweeps with it, it's usually either an outplay or a broken mon anyway (see RM and Annihilape). Conflating extraneous factors with Tera being broken will leave us in a blander meta that is still plagued by RM and Annihilape.
I haven't played this metagame yet so I'm not going to give my opinion on whether it should be banned or not, but there's another option for limiting it that doesn't seem to have been brought up.
Since the "when" is seemingly the most unpredictable part of terastalizing, one way to limit the unpredictability would be to force someone to tera the first time they use a move, or not at all. In other words, a mon who has already used a move without tera-ing cannot tera. This would severely limit the effect of reversing matchups as well, since they'd have to reverse it turn 1 instead of after countering something else, and it would prevent using tera to kill something which should be a revenge killer.
It seems like this argument has come up multiple times now, and I really really dislike it. I’ve heard multiple times now that “Tera has no opportunity cost” which is just straight up not true. It does have less opportunity cost than other mechanics, but saying it has none is disingenuous at best. So far I’ve seen 3:
1- Only one Pokémon can Tera per game. This one is so obvious that it blows my mind it gets passed over. You can only do it once per game, and if you end up wasting it, you just lost a huge resource. Once you use Tera you’re stuck with your decision, even if another Pokémon would have been better, and every Pokémon that faints in a match is one less option you have.
2- Every Pokémon on your team can only have 1 type at a time. This is part of why I dislike people saying it’s completely unpredictable, it’s not. As many other people have pointed out, most of the unpredictability comes from the meta being unstable, and only partially from the mechanic. If you have a Tera type that’s bad in the current match up, there’s nothing you can do about it because you chose it before the game started
3- the surprise factor. Once you Tera, your plan and usually your set are revealed to your opponent. Knowledge is power in competitive Pokémon, and Tera gives your opponent a huge amount of know even if you get put into a disadvantageous position. A bad Tera can give a good player a huge advantage in terms of knowledge, and that alone can swing a game
Generally speaking there is plenty of opportunity cost to both picking a Tera type and using it in a match, And I’d love to see other counter arguments as to why we should ban Tera instead of this. So far I’m in the camp of taking our time and slowly rolling out restrictions with a total ban being a last resort, and I have yet to be convinced otherwise.
I personally im interested on the option of tera-less meta, more as an experiment rather than of personal preference.
I don't think thre is any way to complex ban Terastalizing without it A) not being a huge stretch that makes the mechanic not fun or B) still not solving the core problems with the mechanic. I have seen arguments for revealing the terastal typing in team preview, but that doesn't stop people from using the mechanic whenever they want, so every turn becomes a guessing game as to if the enemy is going to use the tera or not. Many argue that their is an opportunity cost to using tera, that oportunity cost is minimal at best when one good removal thanks to terastalising means that you have suddenly shifted the battle's momentum to your favour. I have similarly heard arguments for the banning of tera blast, which could be reasonable as a ban in the tera-included meta but not in the current one, as some of the biggest tera abusers (Annihilape, Volcarona, Roaring moon) still are able to make use of their coverage options to stomp out their threats. The continous banning of offensive threats ultimately acomplishes nothing since many more mons are able to replicate their effect, meaning that good chunk of offensive mons get banned to keep the mechanic alive.
Had terastalising been implemented in a more balanced manner (aka removing STAB boosts once type changes, not giving an adaptability boost) then the mechanic would have been very fun, but as it stands right it would be healthier to have the option of a seperate Terastal ladder for those who still want to use the mechanic and the actual ladder without terastal. Otherwise you can just ban terasatlizing.
I kinda want to address all these posts I’m seeing that say something along the lines of “it’s too early!” or “give it a few more months!” I highly disagree with this notion and I think it’s doing nothing but further muddying an already muddy discussion.
Ol’ Finchy was pretty clear in the OP about the timeline of this tiering decision. December is the planned month for the suspect test, which could last at max 3 weeks. That means we are likely to not see an official implementation of any decision until essentially 2023- give or take. This is plenty of time for a somewhat-healthy decision to be made.
There are literally thousands of OU battles occurring every day, and a big tour occurring simultaneously. The longer we wait the more the metagame warps around Tera and given the general consensus of what I’m reading in this thread… no one really thinks that would be a good idea.
I may not be qualified for an actual vote but I'll just give my thoughts based on what I've observed in the first week of SV. Terastallization should not be banned outright, however, I would be in favor of showing Tera types on team preview. It's something that could be replicated at actual tournaments on the cartridge by just telling your opponent what your Tera types are ahead of the match. Terastallization as a mechanic is powerful but it can be managed unlike Dynamaxing, so I find the team preview suggestion to be the best option.
The longer we wait the more the metagame warps around Tera and given the general consensus of what I’m reading in this thread… no one really thinks that would be a good idea.
I would say you are selectively reading then, because the support for the pro-Tera side appears to be equal (if not stronger) than those opposed. And this thread isn't even representative of the player base at large, as it's a well known fact that people with grievances are more likely to be vocal, while those who are content remain quiet.
I'm on the BAN TERASTALIZATION train.
He has no place on a competitive place/tier like dinamax have and such needed to be banned. We are prove that we can ban "gen gimmicks" last gen so not much to discuss.
My problem is that the Restricted form doesn't eliminates the problem of Tera. Showing the tera type on preview doenst change the posibility of having 6 mons wkch can terra, limiting the mons wich can terra doenst take the existence of 18 diferents types they can choose from, limiting to only STAB only buff offensive mons bc defensive mons dont care about having Adaptability and banning only terablast only affect few mons like Physical Pult.
It is uncompetitive and need to be ban..
Lock in which which Pokémon on your Team can tera during team builder. You as the player know, the opponent during team preview can make an experienced guess, the suprise factor is maintained, but still neuters.
or no ban.
Many experienced players have proven to be able to predict a Tera and even force the opponent into one with pressure.
I would say you are selectively reading then, because the support for the pro-Tera side appears to be equal (if not stronger) than those opposed. And this thread isn't even representative of the player base at large, as it's a well known fact that people with grievances are more likely to be vocal, while those who are content remain quiet.
Wat. We reading the same threads? If by pro-tera you include the various restrictions people want, then sure, but that was what I was talking about as well. So I think we are on the same page!
After playing several games, I'm of the opinion that defensive Terastalizing alone is overpowered, let alone offensive Tera-ing of STABs or offensive-defensive Tera-ing for a stronger coverage move or better Tera Blast typing along with a better defensive typing (though, make no mistake, Fighting is Chi-Yu's best Tera type when it runs Tera Blast because you get to smash Tyranitar/Hydreigon/Blissey/opposing Chi-Yu really hard with it and you get a Stealth Rock resistance to boot). Here are 3 games where my defensive Terastalizing - where I carry no moves that get the Tera typing's STAB - wins me the game, especially games I would have otherwise lost, and honestly, I think I'll keep ending up playing more such games:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1714546220 (Tera Steel Great Tusk wins the ending 1-vs-1 against Chien-Pao somehow; all I can assume is that the opposing Chien-Pao was Swords Dance/Ice Shard/dual STAB)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1713976884-vvkd5f4ugw60s3ccm2a9vsyvz8r6sibpwv (While I had previously figured that Fairy was RestTalk Annihilape's best Tera typing due to its sweet resists and neutralities, tanking a Flutter Mane Shadow Ball with Tera Fairy Annihilape and then stealing back the game from there (admittedly starting with a lucky Sleep Talk roll) was really clutch)
Thought I'd contribute this before (or during since this took so long to research?) the Great Terastal Talk:
How to Check a Mon That Can Tera Into Any Type With One Other Mon
I'm honestly of the belief that the Terastal type-assigning meta is already deceptively solved. Just because you can make your mon any of the 18 different monotypes doesn't mean you should. Bug's pretty lame when you don't already get STAB (and preferably First Impression) on it, for example.
Given worries that Roaring Moon and Dragapult (and very possibly more) are overpowered due to Terastal, let's see how well those worries stand up!
We'll try seeing how hard it is to check an example mon that I don't think anyone thinks is broken in OU that can Tera into any type it wants: Iron Treads. For simplicity's sake, we'll assume that no weather and no terrain will be set in all test sets.
Since you may have busted your Tera on another mon already, we'll currently assume that Iron Treads can Tera but you cannot.
Now, typically, Great Tusk should be able to check Iron Treads (note that Corviknight already has big trouble checking the Adamant Choice Band Wild Charge set and Ting-Lu has big trouble checking Iron Treads's Body Press):
252+ Atk Choice Band Iron Treads Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Great Tusk: 144-171 (33.1 - 39.4%) -- 13.1% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Iron Treads Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Great Tusk: 192-226 (44.2 - 52%) -- 14.1% chance to 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Iron Treads Ice Spinner vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Great Tusk: 156-184 (35.9 - 42.3%) -- 91.5% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Iron Treads Ice Spinner vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Great Tusk: 104-124 (23.9 - 28.5%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Iron Treads Ice Spinner vs. +1 252 HP / 252+ Def Great Tusk: 104-124 (23.9 - 28.5%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Def Choice Band Iron Treads Body Press vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Great Tusk: 81-96 (18.6 - 22.1%) -- possible 6HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Great Tusk Close Combat vs. +6 252 HP / 252+ Def Iron Treads: 104-126 (27 - 32.8%) -- 60.4% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Great Tusk Earthquake vs. +4 252 HP / 252+ Def Iron Treads: 116-138 (30.2 - 35.9%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
4 Atk Choice Band Iron Treads Ice Spinner vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Great Tusk: 114-136 (26.2 - 31.3%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
4 Atk Choice Band Iron Treads Ice Spinner vs. +1 252 HP / 252+ Def Great Tusk: 78-92 (17.9 - 21.1%) -- possible 5HKO
+2 252+ Def Iron Treads Body Press vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Great Tusk: 107-127 (24.6 - 29.2%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252+ Def Iron Treads Body Press vs. +1 252 HP / 252+ Def Great Tusk: 73-86 (16.8 - 19.8%) -- possible 7HKO after Leftovers recovery
+4 252+ Def Iron Treads Body Press vs. +2 252 HP / 252+ Def Great Tusk: 81-96 (18.6 - 22.1%) -- possible 6HKO after Leftovers recovery
+6 252+ Def Iron Treads Body Press vs. +3 252 HP / 252+ Def Great Tusk: 86-102 (19.8 - 23.5%) -- possible 6HKO after Leftovers recovery
+6 252+ Def Iron Treads Body Press vs. +4 252 HP / 252+ Def Great Tusk: 72-85 (16.5 - 19.5%) -- possible 8HKO after Leftovers recovery
+6 252+ Def Iron Treads Body Press vs. +5 252 HP / 252+ Def Great Tusk: 62-73 (14.2 - 16.8%) -- possible 9HKO after Leftovers recovery
+6 252+ Def Iron Treads Body Press vs. +6 252 HP / 252+ Def Great Tusk: 54-64 (12.4 - 14.7%) -- possibly the worst move ever
4 Atk Iron Treads Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Great Tusk: 23-27 (5.2 - 6.2%) -- possibly the worst move ever
0 Atk Great Tusk Headlong Rush vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Iron Treads: 206-246 (53.6 - 64%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Def Great Tusk Body Press vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Iron Treads: 186-218 (48.4 - 56.7%) -- 89.5% chance to 2HKO
252+ Def Great Tusk Body Press vs. +2 252 HP / 252+ Def Iron Treads: 92-110 (23.9 - 28.6%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 Atk Great Tusk Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Iron Treads: 56-67 (14.5 - 17.4%) -- possible 6HKO
0 Atk Great Tusk Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Iron Treads: 75-89 (19.5 - 23.1%) -- possible 5HKO
0 Atk Great Tusk Rapid Spin vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Iron Treads: 19-23 (4.9 - 5.9%) -- possibly the worst move ever
Just let Iron Treads go Tera Ground and *welp* looks like Great Tusk needs to use Ice Spinner and an offensive boost (be it Choice Band or Bulk Up) in order to be a solid check:
252+ Atk Choice Band Tera Ground Iron Treads Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Great Tusk: 192-228 (44.2 - 52.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Tera Ground Iron Treads Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Great Tusk: 256-302 (58.9 - 69.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Tera Ground Iron Treads Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Great Tusk: 130-154 (29.9 - 35.4%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Tera Ground Iron Treads Earthquake vs. +1 252 HP / 252+ Def Great Tusk: 130-154 (29.9 - 35.4%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Tera Ground Iron Treads Earthquake vs. +1 252 HP / 4 Def Great Tusk: 170-202 (39.1 - 46.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ Atk Tera Ground Iron Treads Earthquake vs. +1 252 HP / 252+ Def Great Tusk: 88-104 (20.2 - 23.9%) -- possible 6HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Choice Band Tera Ground Iron Treads Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Great Tusk: 176-208 (40.5 - 47.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Choice Band Tera Ground Iron Treads Earthquake vs. +1 252 HP / 252+ Def Great Tusk: 118-140 (27.1 - 32.2%) -- 48.4% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
4 Atk Choice Band Tera Ground Iron Treads Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Great Tusk: 188-222 (43.3 - 51.1%) -- 4.7% chance to 2HKO
4 Atk Choice Band Tera Ground Iron Treads Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Great Tusk: 142-168 (32.7 - 38.7%) -- 4.5% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
4 Atk Choice Band Tera Ground Iron Treads Earthquake vs. +1 252 HP / 252+ Def Great Tusk: 96-114 (22.1 - 26.2%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Def Great Tusk Body Press vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tera Ground Iron Treads: 124-147 (38.6 - 45.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+1 252+ Def Great Tusk Body Press vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tera Ground Iron Treads: 186-219 (57.9 - 68.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Def Great Tusk Body Press vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tera Ground Iron Treads: 93-109 (24.2 - 28.3%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Def Great Tusk Body Press vs. +2 252 HP / 252+ Def Tera Ground Iron Treads: 46-55 (11.9 - 14.3%) -- possibly the worst move ever
252+ Atk Choice Band Great Tusk Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tera Ground Iron Treads: 279-328 (86.9 - 102.1%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Great Tusk Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Tera Ground Iron Treads: 277-327 (72.1 - 85.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Great Tusk Ice Spinner vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tera Ground Iron Treads: 368-436 (95.8 - 113.5%) -- 75% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Great Tusk Rapid Spin vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tera Ground Iron Treads: 51-60 (13.2 - 15.6%) -- possible 7HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Great Tusk Ice Spinner vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tera Ground Iron Treads: 322-380 (83.8 - 98.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 0 Atk Great Tusk Rapid Spin vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Tera Ground Iron Treads: 58-69 (15.1 - 17.9%) -- possible 6HKO
+1 0 Atk Great Tusk Ice Spinner vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Tera Ground Iron Treads: 372-440 (96.8 - 114.5%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
+1 0 Atk Great Tusk Rapid Spin vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tera Ground Iron Treads: 44-52 (11.4 - 13.5%) -- possible 8HKO
+1 0 Atk Great Tusk Ice Spinner vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tera Ground Iron Treads: 276-328 (71.8 - 85.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 0 Atk Great Tusk Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Tera Ground Iron Treads: 208-246 (54.1 - 64%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
One of the nightmare defensive Teras against Great Tusk is Flying...we're dang lucky that Ice Spinner smashes that as hard as it smashes Tera Ground. Let's see how well Tera Flying Iron Treads can OHKO Great Tusk:
252+ Atk Choice Band Tera Flying Iron Treads Tera Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Great Tusk: 306-362 (70.5 - 83.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Tera Flying Iron Treads Tera Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Great Tusk: 234-276 (53.9 - 63.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Tera Flying Iron Treads Tera Blast vs. +1 252 HP / 252+ Def Great Tusk: 156-186 (35.9 - 42.8%) -- 93.1% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Tera Flying Iron Treads Tera Blast vs. +1 252 HP / 252+ Def Great Tusk: 156-186 (35.9 - 42.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
4 Atk Choice Band Tera Flying Iron Treads Tera Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Great Tusk: 170-204 (39.1 - 47%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
4 Atk Choice Band Tera Flying Iron Treads Tera Blast vs. +1 252 HP / 252+ Def Great Tusk: 116-138 (26.7 - 31.7%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
Hot dang, that was close. Defensive Bulk Up Ice Spinner Great Tusk pulls it out again! And so does Adamant Choice Band Great Tusk!
Another strong defensive Tera against Great Tusk is ironically Bug; guess we've got to check that, too:
252 Atk Choice Band Great Tusk Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tera Bug Iron Treads: 420-496 (109.3 - 129.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Life Orb Great Tusk Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tera Bug Iron Treads: 364-432 (94.7 - 112.5%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO
+1 0 Atk Great Tusk Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tera Bug Iron Treads: 344-408 (89.5 - 106.2%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO
+1 0 Atk Great Tusk Ice Spinner vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tera Bug Iron Treads: 69-82 (17.9 - 21.3%) -- possible 5HKO
Oh man, I'm gonna hate getting the Ice Spinner vs. Stone Edge gamble right, especially since the Defensive Bulk Up Great Tusk set needs Rapid Spin for the crucial speed boost and chip damage. At least Adamant Choice Band Great Tusk can spare the moveslots.
So it looks like a good general defensive Tera for Iron Treads is Water; now we have to check that:
252+ Atk Choice Band Great Tusk Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tera Water Iron Treads: 172-204 (44.7 - 53.1%) -- 28.1% chance to 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Great Tusk Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tera Water Iron Treads: 207-244 (53.9 - 63.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Great Tusk Earthquake vs. +2 252 HP / 252+ Def Tera Water Iron Treads: 87-103 (22.6 - 26.8%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Life Orb Great Tusk Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tera Water Iron Treads: 179-212 (46.6 - 55.2%) -- 68% chance to 2HKO
+1 252+ Atk Life Orb Great Tusk Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tera Water Iron Treads: 269-317 (70 - 82.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252+ Atk Life Orb Great Tusk Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Tera Water Iron Treads: 360-425 (93.7 - 110.6%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO
4 Atk Great Tusk Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tera Water Iron Treads: 87-103 (22.6 - 26.8%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 4 Atk Great Tusk Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tera Water Iron Treads: 130-154 (33.8 - 40.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+1 4 Atk Great Tusk Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tera Water Iron Treads: 156-184 (40.6 - 47.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+1 0 Atk Great Tusk Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Iron Treads: 174-205 (45.3 - 53.3%) -- 35.5% chance to 2HKO
+1 0 Atk Great Tusk Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Iron Treads: 208-246 (54.1 - 64%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+3 4 Atk Great Tusk Earthquake vs. +6 252 HP / 252+ Def Tera Water Iron Treads: 55-66 (14.3 - 17.1%) -- possible 9HKO after Leftovers recovery
+3 4 Atk Great Tusk Close Combat vs. +6 252 HP / 252+ Def Tera Water Iron Treads: 66-78 (17.1 - 20.3%) -- possible 7HKO after Leftovers recovery
+3 252+ Def Great Tusk Body Press vs. +6 252 HP / 252+ Def Tera Water Iron Treads: 58-69 (15.1 - 17.9%) -- possible 8HKO after Leftovers recovery
+6 4 Atk Great Tusk Earthquake vs. +6 252 HP / 252+ Def Tera Water Iron Treads: 87-103 (22.6 - 26.8%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery
+3 4 Atk Great Tusk Rapid Spin vs. +6 252 HP / 252+ Def Tera Water Iron Treads: 19-23 (4.9 - 5.9%) -- possibly the worst move ever
So the Defensive Bulk Up Great Tusk set still manages to 1-vs-1 Tera Water Iron Treads! ...Except possibly the Iron Defense ones. Adamant Choice Band Iron Tusk looks like it's unable to KO Tera Water Tera Blast Iron Treads in time, though.
Perhaps the true nightmare might be Iron Defense Body Press Tera Fighting Iron Treads; let's check that one:
+2 252+ Def Tera Fighting Iron Treads Body Press vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Great Tusk: 160-190 (36.8 - 43.7%) -- 99.7% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252+ Def Tera Fighting Iron Treads Body Press vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Great Tusk: 214-253 (49.3 - 58.2%) -- 98.8% chance to 2HKO
+2 252+ Def Tera Fighting Iron Treads Body Press vs. +1 252 HP / 252+ Def Great Tusk: 109-129 (25.1 - 29.7%) -- 0% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
+4 252+ Def Tera Fighting Iron Treads Body Press vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Great Tusk: 321-378 (73.9 - 87%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+4 252+ Def Tera Fighting Iron Treads Body Press vs. +2 252 HP / 252+ Def Great Tusk: 121-144 (27.8 - 33.1%) -- 86.3% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
+6 252+ Def Tera Fighting Iron Treads Body Press vs. +3 252 HP / 252+ Def Great Tusk: 129-153 (29.7 - 35.2%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
+6 252+ Def Black Belt Tera Fighting Iron Treads Body Press vs. +3 252 HP / 252+ Def Great Tusk: 154-183 (35.4 - 42.1%) -- 87.4% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Great Tusk Play Rough vs. +2 252 HP / 252+ Def Tera Fighting Iron Treads: 208-248 (54.1 - 64.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Great Tusk Play Rough vs. +4 252 HP / 252+ Def Tera Fighting Iron Treads: 140-168 (36.4 - 43.7%) -- 99% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Great Tusk Close Combat vs. +2 252 HP / 252+ Def Tera Fighting Iron Treads: 103-123 (26.8 - 32%) -- 35.9% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
+3 4 Atk Great Tusk Play Rough vs. +6 252 HP / 252+ Def Tera Fighting Iron Treads: 132-156 (34.3 - 40.6%) -- 42.4% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
4 Atk Great Tusk Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tera Fighting Iron Treads: 14-16 (3.6 - 4.1%) -- possibly the worst move ever
This Iron Treads set might be beatable for Defensive Bulk Up Great Tusk, but it seems pretty sequencing-dependent. At any rate, you'll be leaning on Play Rough like mad...and hey neat, Adamant Choice Band Great Tusk pulls it out yet again with Play Rough!
These days, Choice Band Ground attack/Fighting attack/Ice Spinner/Stone Edge/Play Rough looks pretty silly against Air Balloon Gholdengo, making that set get forced out at least once.
Overall, non-Tera Great Tusk is forced into 50/50s in the teambuilder dealing with all possible Tera Iron Treads sets - and winning enough of those 50/50s with one set can leave it open to other prominent meta threats.
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Sweet sheesh, that was a Great Wall of Calcs - once more unto the breach, let's analyze Tera Iron Treads vs. Dondozo!
Dondozo typically should be able to check Iron Treads:
252+ Atk Choice Band Iron Treads Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Dondozo: 159-187 (31.5 - 37.1%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Iron Treads Wild Charge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Dondozo: 192-226 (38 - 44.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery (12.5 - 14.7% recoil damage)
4 Atk Choice Band Iron Treads Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Dondozo: 117-138 (23.2 - 27.3%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery
4 Atk Choice Band Iron Treads Wild Charge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Dondozo: 140-166 (27.7 - 32.9%) -- 80.9% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery (9.1 - 10.8% recoil damage)
0 Atk Dondozo Liquidation vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Iron Treads: 158-188 (49.2 - 58.5%) -- 98% chance to 2HKO
0 Atk Dondozo Liquidation vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Iron Treads: 156-186 (40.6 - 48.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
0 Atk Dondozo Liquidation vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Iron Treads: 116-140 (30.2 - 36.4%) -- 57% chance to 3HKO
Dondozo no longer checks Tera Electric Iron Treads(!!!):
252+ Atk Choice Band Tera Electric Iron Treads Wild Charge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Dondozo: 288-338 (57.1 - 67%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery (22.4 - 26.3% recoil damage)
252+ Atk Choice Band Tera Electric Iron Treads Wild Charge vs. +1 252 HP / 252+ Def Dondozo: 192-228 (38 - 45.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery (14.9 - 17.7% recoil damage)
252+ Atk Choice Band Tera Electric Iron Treads Tera Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Dondozo: 254-302 (50.3 - 59.9%) -- 82.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Tera Electric Iron Treads Tera Blast vs. +1 252 HP / 252+ Def Dondozo: 170-204 (33.7 - 40.4%) -- 37.4% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
4 Atk Dondozo Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tera Electric Iron Treads: 124-148 (38.6 - 46.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Let's see how well Dondozo can check Choice Band Tera Grass Tera Blast Iron Treads:
4 Atk Dondozo Avalanche (120 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tera Grass Iron Treads: 148-176 (46.1 - 54.8%) -- 58.6% chance to 2HKO
Overall, Tera Electric Iron Treads can even break through non-Tera Dondozo! I suppose Yawn Dondozo can at least make Iron Treads fall asleep, though...?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Let's go for a sillier example - the Iron Bundle match-up!
Iron Bundle typically smokes Iron Treads to kingdom come:
252+ Atk Iron Treads Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Iron Bundle: 192-228 (75.8 - 90.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Def Iron Treads Body Press vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Iron Bundle: 162-192 (64 - 75.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Iron Bundle Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Iron Treads: 464-548 (144.5 - 170.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Iron Bundle Hydro Pump vs. 4 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Iron Treads: 210-248 (65.2 - 77%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Iron Bundle Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Iron Treads: 210-248 (54.6 - 64.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Iron Bundle Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Iron Treads: 314-372 (81.7 - 96.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
But Tera Rock Iron Treads smashes every Iron Bundle but Scarf ones!
252+ Atk Tera Rock Iron Treads Stone Edge vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Iron Bundle: 288-342 (113.3 - 134.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Iron Bundle Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Iron Treads: 464-548 (144.5 - 170.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Iron Bundle Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Iron Treads: 510-600 (158.8 - 186.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Tera Electric Iron Treads doesn't do too badly, either - it just probably KOs itself against Scarf Iron Bundle in the process:
252+ Atk Tera Electric Iron Treads Wild Charge vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Iron Bundle: 260-308 (102.3 - 121.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO (19.7 - 19.7% recoil damage)
252 SpA Iron Bundle Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Tera Electric Iron Treads: 232-274 (72.2 - 85.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Iron Bundle Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Tera Electric Iron Treads: 255-300 (79.4 - 93.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Heck, even Tera Fighting Iron Treads doesn't do too badly, either - it can even scout for Scarf Iron Bundle without getting immediately KOd, and it still has a reasonable chance of KOing Scarf Iron Bundle on the spot:
252+ Def Tera Fighting Iron Treads Body Press vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Iron Bundle: 242-288 (95.2 - 113.3%) -- 75% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Tera Fighting Iron Treads Tera Blast vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Iron Bundle: 234-276 (92.1 - 108.6%) -- 50% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Iron Bundle Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Tera Fighting Iron Treads: 232-274 (72.2 - 85.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Iron Bundle Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Tera Fighting Iron Treads: 255-300 (79.4 - 93.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Overall, even non-Tera Iron Bundle can no longer check the right Tera Iron Treads set!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
At this rate, I've got a feeling that pretty much any seemingly non-broken mon can break through a whole bunch of its checks with the right Tera types and the right sets.
Here comes the fun part: in real games, you can Tera your prospective check, too! Calculations for every Tera against every other Tera get nuts Camomons-style. Of course, run walls of calcs like these and you can figure out when you're forced to Tera (especially in mid- to late-game) or you're forced out when they reveal their Tera (especially in the early-game).
And if you play sloppily enough and lose a mon or three, your opponent can figure out which of their remaining mons is mathematically the best to Tera with - even if it's none of them at all.
EDIT: Mucked up the Dondozo calcs - turns out that Dondozo fares even worse against Tera Iron Treads than I previously put down.
Sadly, I ended up concluding in that "How to Check An Unrestricted Tera Mon With One Other Mon" post that, similarly to the OP, Terastalization breaks too many checks for the same mon all the way down. Even Iron Treads the universally good but not broken (or even format-warping like Gholdengo or arguably Dragapult) suddenly has a lot fewer checks when it can Tera and (for the sake of trying to pull things off even when you've already busted your Tera) you cannot. Heck, anyone found a universal check set for any-Tera Iron Treads?
My opinions on these:
Banning Tera Blast
Let's get this out of the way - as I've outlined in my first earlier post, even defensive Terastalizing and gaining no new STAB attacks this way produces too many incredible comebacks by flipping checks and counters around.
Showing Tera type at Team Preview
This makes me deeply uncomfortable because it stops replicating the SV team preview screen - I am in 100% agreement with this post:
Hmm, that is a good point. I am thinking of matching up with someone on ladder to be the 6v6 singles equivalent of VGC ladder. If there is information not present in that team battle screen, I don't think it should be present in our team preview either. This is why for example, you can't tell which Urshifu or Silvally form you are playing into based on team preview. It depends on what you think we are simulating I guess, without getting too existential about it.
We've similarly bent over backwards fully implementing Xerneas and Zacian form sprites in team preview, even though we all 100% know which form changes Xerneas will undergo and when (unlike Zacian, who can stay in Hero form all fight if it's sent in).
When it comes to a cartridge version of implementing this, this feels like forcing both players to write all their team members and their Tera types to the judge and either trusting that the judge keeps this information private until team preview actually starts or not trusting the judge and just sending the same information to the opponent (hopefully right at team preview time, but real-life availability varies). Clauses such as the OHKO Move Clause are different: for such clauses, the judge can publicly post the banned moves/abilities/items/etc. in a place every single tournament player can access and never worry about needing to keep information private.
Not only does showing Tera types at team preview make me deeply uncomfortable, it also doesn't solve the teambuilder's problem of needing to either check every Tera of every mon or throwing in the towel against some sets.
Take this Dragapult example:
I've scouted the opposing Dragapult. It's Specs. I've Teraed, but my opponent hasn't. Dragapult switched into Stealth Rock once, and that's all the damage that typical coward took. Dragapult and friends took out part of my team, but luckily, I have revenge killers:
252+ Atk Choice Band Baxcalibur Ice Shard vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Dragapult: 296-350 (93.3 - 110.4%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Sword of Ruin Chien-Pao Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Dragapult: 368-436 (116 - 137.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Choice Band Sword of Ruin Chien-Pao Ice Shard vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Dragapult: 316-372 (99.6 - 117.3%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Dragapult Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Baxcalibur: 600-708 (161.7 - 190.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Dragapult Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Chien-Pao: 373-441 (123.9 - 146.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Sadly, Baxcalibur's worn down enough that it can be OHKOd by Specs Shadow Ball, and Dragapult can clean the rest of my team from there. (I actually was that Dragapult-wielding opponent in that earlier post.)
My team gets swept if I don't use priority, but oh you bet Dragapult will Tera:
252 Atk Choice Band Sword of Ruin Chien-Pao Ice Shard vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tera Fairy Dragapult: 158-186 (49.8 - 58.6%) -- 98.4% chance to 2HKO (Baxcalibur deals less damage)
252 Atk Choice Band Sword of Ruin Chien-Pao Ice Shard vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tera Steel Dragapult: 79-93 (24.9 - 29.3%) -- 100% chance to 4HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Sword of Ruin Chien-Pao Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tera Steel Dragapult: 274-324 (86.4 - 102.2%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Choice Band Sword of Ruin Chien-Pao Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tera Fairy Dragapult: 137-162 (43.2 - 51.1%) -- 5.5% chance to 2HKO
I can have even further revenge killers in the back, but how pleasant is cramming both Scizor and Breloom/Pawmot in the team along with Chien-Pao/Baxcalibur, really?
252+ Atk Choice Band Technician Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tera Steel Dragapult: 102-121 (32.1 - 38.1%) -- 97% chance to 3HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Technician Breloom Mach Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tera Fairy Dragapult: 102-121 (32.1 - 38.1%) -- 97% chance to 3HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Iron Fist Pawmot Mach Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tera Fairy Dragapult: 75-89 (23.6 - 28%) -- 89.8% chance to 4HKO
...so now you're telling me that, with the proper Tera and if I don't prepare 3 mons for it, Dragapult has a chance of tanking both of my priority users and cleaning up my team right through them?
Also consider the part where Dragapult will never Tera in front of Breloom/Pawmot. Then consider that late-game Pult might Tera Steel anyway in front of Scizor and tear through both of my priority users that way, even though Chien-Pao came second.
Even nastier, early enough in the game, your opponent can just switch out their Dragapult and make Sucker Punch look really silly (and make Ice Shard look kinda silly).
You can tell me during team preview that your Dragapult is Tera Steel all you want; it doesn't prevent me from also needing Scizor if I want to Check All Specs Dragapults in the teambuilder (along with All Dragon Dance Dragapults).
Limiting the amount of Pokemon on any given team that have access to possibly Terastallize during a battle
This notably leads to the same underlying problem as the team preview Tera list one does assuming that the limit is a text one similar to the Tera type preview list: even if both players restrict it to one mon per team, it doesn't prevent teambuilders from finding that a lot fewer mons to perhaps none check a given set and therefore needing multiple checks for the same set. A huge alarm bell for me in terms of whether I think a mon is banworthy is indeed needing multiple checks for it on the same team in order to not lose to it.
More far-fetched limitations that restrict mons' sets further such as "only itemless mons may Tera", "only mons at Level 70 or below may Tera", and "only mons that have Tera Blast in their moveset may Tera" may actually cripple mons enough to keep most of their previous checks as actual checks, but these limitations start looking weirder and weirder.
Limiting Tera typing to previously existing STAB types
This still notably does not eliminate defensive Terastalizing for any dual-typed mon. Note that, in my above example, Dragapult going Tera Ghost is enough to dodge the Ice Shard OHKOs, and Pult going Tera Dragon is enough to drastically reduce the chance of getting OHKOd by that Choice Band Chien-Pao Sucker Punch.
No Tiering Action
Due to checks for a ton of mons and a ton of sets suddenly being in direly short supply with unrestricted Terastalization and therefore needing multiple checks for the same set too often, the only way I'm supporting No Tiering Action is if a separate Tera-legal OU ladder/challengeable is added, even if it only gets Other Metas levels of support. Other Metas levels of support is enough to get tournaments.
If we do keep restricted Tera (or unrestricted Tera), be prepared to ask a Camomons player for teambuilding advice. They're used to seeing any mon get way too many available typings, including typings we don't even need to currently prepare for like Normal/Ghost and Ground/Fairy.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I suppose it's hilarious that, regardless of the Tera typing picked, every single Tera typing turns an effective resistance to Tinted Lens Lokix's STAB priority attacks into a neutrality or weakness. Lokix may ironically be the least affected in the teambuilder by Terastalization, ensuring slightly more blanket checking than usual.
There are 8 options for you, but only 2 options for them because they are aware of their own Tera type.
If they are Flying, they Acro you.
If they are Steel, they switch out.
If you Tera Rock, you win 50% of the time, and the other 50% of the time you just made a Tera Rock Breloom, grats.
If you don't Tera Rock, you don't get anything 100% of the time.
You have to play 4D chess to win 25% of the time.
Your opponent just needs to decide to switch or not.
Either they outplayed you to get a favorable matchup in, in which case they should obviously be at an advantage, or Roaring Moon came in as a revenge killer after Breloom killed something, in which case they should be at an advantage.
The correct solution is to switch out into your Roaring Moon check. If you didn't bring one, that's a failure of team building and you're being punished for it, and if it's dead, then that's just a cleaner going to work after its checks are gone, nothing unique to terastalizing there.
showing at preview:
doesn't help, in fact it can make things more complicated
since theres no cost to having optimal tera types on all 6 of your mons with no drawback at preview, you further turn the game into "I normally can beat/wall this but it has tera [type] so can I really risk switching [pokemon] in? what if its the "real" tera sweeper of their team?
the opponent doesn't carry (or need to carry) tera blast on all 6 of their mons but you are likely to assume it for more than you normally would at the moment, in this case giving out further information constricts your options in how to deal with it since it's so vague in terms of showing the pokemons actual capability for that battle - its like playing a previous gen knowing pokemon have hidden power [type] even if they don't actually use it, can you really risk every time that when X mon comes in that it isn't actually carrying tera blast to destroy your check? knowing each mon could potentially have a win button in the back with 0 cost? it makes even bluffing tera blast under these circumstances effective... using the same team and only switching what tera types your opponent sees can make the game come out so different - I don't know if tera typing at a certain level would become more important then the team you make itself but it feels like at some point it could turn that way
To begin with, I'd like to know if the 3 week suspect test is set in stone or not. Assuming it is, personally, I think theres only 2 logical choices that properly advance the meta (depending on the choice to go for restrict/complex or not):
1) Suspect test with 2 options: Ban or No Ban -> basically a no brainer, if the path of complex ban is not chosen
2) Suspect test with 2 options: Ban or Restrict -> the best option when going for the complex route
The majority of players have realized that something has to be done. A suspect test with the option to either Restrict or Doing Nothing seems pointless to me, considering even my 90 yr old grandma knows that tera in its full form is never gonna stay. Basically 3 weeks down the drain for an obvious result. Judging from this and the metagame discussion thread, the decision will be between full ban or complex ban.
Theres some people who want to do nothing or "wait a few months and let the meta develop", which imo is the worst decision of all. Tera is not magically gonna fix itself. Judging from the past, Gamefreak is not gonna change/nerf tera either, really no point in waiting. (and then you could still re-suspect if this miracle happened)
I really hope this community will vote whether to ban this or not based on the actual merits of the mechanic instead of it being a de facto popularity contest. I've seen a lot of people who talk about how "fun" they think this mechanic is or how much they like it, but this is merely subjective opinion.
I fear this is exactly what the discussion/suspect is gonna derail into. Popularity bias towards no ban, since I doubt there are (m)any people being pro ban DESPITE thinking its balanced. You even have people straight up saying "I know tera is uncompetitive but I still want to keep it". The discussion should only be about objective arguments and facts. I have seen a good amount of pro-tera people saying stuff like:
- "its fun"
- "its interesting"
Highly subjective. Some people love tera, some people hate it.
- "its the identity of gen 9"
What even is an "identity" of a gen? Do gen 1-5 have no identity? Should we not have banned any paradox mons because they are a big part of gen 9s "identity"? Or dragapult in gen 8 natdex? Being gen 8's pseudo he is a big part of that gens identity for me! - Completely subjective again
- "you shouldnt ban the gimmick two generations in a row, gen 8 was shit and gen 9 will be too!"
I'd place that into the "smogon is gonna die if you ban gimmick again!!!!111eleven" - doomposting category. Every mechanic, mon or whatever should be looked at individually. Gen 8 was "shit" despite the dynamax ban.
All in all I believe the main focus of the discussion has to be whether to go down the rabbit hole of tera-clause/restriction. Afaik that falls into the category of complex bans that smogon does prefer to avoid unless its absolutely worth it. Personally, I do not believe this to be the right course. I believe the 2 most important aspects of tiering decisions are transparency and consistency.
Transparency has been amazing so far, big thanks.
Consistency? I think doing complex ban(s) for tera to keep it at any cost for the sake of keeping it is wrong. You open the door for people to come in and (rightfully?) demand complex bans on any and everything. For example, Urshifu will be too broken in the future, people gonna demand a complex ban for Urshifu + SD over just banning Urshifu. Are you gonna deny that? But you did an exception for tera, and Urshifu is "fun" too. Does smogon now cherry pick and do exceptions only for the stuff they like? Is Smogon biased? DOES SMOGON LOVE STALL?!?
Why is that important? Well, I believe the main reason why the route of restriction is being considered in the first place, is the popularity of tera. Trying to piss off less people seems to be atleast part of the motivation behind it (correct me if I am wrong).
Maybe other people do not value consistency as much as I do, but I do not like doing exceptions just because its the "generational gimmick". To me its just another (new) element of the game, like new mons, moves, abilities. What I am trying to say here: Theres always people who gonna be unhappy about tiering decisions and I think tera should not be treated differently to make a group of people less angry, it isnt and shouldnt be a popularity contest. Obviously you can just do as you please and say "eat it", but I felt like this aspect hasnt been discussed much and is not irrelevant.
Now onto actual arguments why I do not think the tera-clause is the way to go:
1) Only allow tera into a STAB type -> benefits strong STAB/Priority way more and takes away the only interesting part of the mechanic, might aswell just ban it then. Basically keeping tera for the sake of keeping tera, destroying its essence and soul in the process.
2) Ban terablast -> doesnt change anything.
3) Limit to 1 dedicated Tera mon + team preview -> this is the heaviest restriction I can think of without adding some "tera orb" or modifying the game on cartridge itself. This mostly fixes the "in-match" issues, because you know exactly that your enemy has that normal-tera dragonite and you can play around it. However, it doesnt fix the teambuilding issue because you now have only 1 dedicated tera mon and have to prepare your team for dozens of (tera)-threats. Yes you know what you face once you are in the game, but preparing for it in the builder is overwhelming.
Also this doesnt fix another issue: mons getting pushed over the edge because of tera and the next best thing(s) replacing them, potentially warranting bans again. That sounds especially awful in an already heavily dex-cut metagame.
Oh and obviously, if the restrictions do not suffice, you have to either restrict again or outright ban. Meta will take alot longer to stabilize, mons banned during "tera 2.0" have to be re-suspected etc. If you are willing to do such amount of work for the community to have the best metagame possible, very noble indeed.
Lastly, is it even clear how and which restriction its gonna be in the end? Is there gonna be a poll? Will you consider the 38 solutions people come up with? How long will it take? How do you justify choosing one over the other? So many questions...
Concluding, I think that the decision to choose the restricted route should have REALLY good arguments backing it up and outright banning the mechanic will be less controversial overall.
I'm thinking I'm repeating myself at this point still, my thoughts.
Ban Terastalization, simple as. Giving three stabs or Adap boost while switching match ups it's ridiculous, also I seen a lot of people saying the only reason Tera seems busted right now it's because the meta is new and later on things will get stable and predictable, that's a load of BS.
No, things won't be stable and predictable because with tera if you start to get counters, you can simple tera to another typing to give you an edge over those counters/checks and then the said counters/checks start to tera to awnser the new tera set people will start to find another tera to suit their needs, it's a bloody arms race waiting to happen.
That mechanic might not be as stupid as D-Max, but that's like saying shoting a missile ain't as bad as shotting a Nuke, preserving a broken mechanic because its the gens mechanic won't be good in the long run, in Gen8, Ubers tried to preserve D-Max but they ended up getting rid of it in the end, even OU doubles who had it for the longest time eventually kicked out, maybe it could be good in other tiers since it's not as ridiculous in a Bulkier meta like Ubers or Doubles as it is in OU.
tl/dr: Tera is busted, meta will be a mess, banning Tera Blast, the mechanic best abusers or any of the other choices is like clogging one leak in a Dam about to bust.
A lot of the arguments pro-ban tend to address the guessing game of Tera. While something like Tera does create a high-stakes mind game for both sides, it's similar to Sucker Punch mindgames or games of Bulk Up chicken. The mindgames will become more docile as we get progressively closer to a "normal" meta. "Skill" in Pokemon has often relied closely or directly upon a player's ability to make accurate predictions. I find a meta with Tera to be more skillful and active than one without. As the metagame progresses, HO teams that can sweep with Tera will get countered more often by bulky teams that can take attacks from powerful mons. Therefore, it's reasonable to assume that the chaos we see now in limited form will eventually die down into a competitive (albeit prediction-based) metagame.
Youtube frogs aside, this is about where I'd expect the showdown community at large to stand. If Tera gets flat out banned in this meta landscape, it will definitely be some sort of power play. The anti-Tera crowd is loud, but probably not very numerous relatively speaking.
For the sake of discussion of the mechanic itself, which is what this thread is about, lets take some time to look at the Negative aspects of terastilizing your pokemon and the mechanic itself. Note that when I say negative, I mean as it in terms of why you would not want to terastilize.
1) Team Building: While I am trying to limit comparisons to other mechanics, this is the one time I need to bring it up. Terastilization forces players to pick tera types for there teams in team building. While this is similar to Dynamax in that any Pokemon can perform it, unlike dynamax it is not an auto win button. In fact in many instances I have seen and experienced, players end up withholding their Terastilization until "Uh oh, the tera type isn't one that can help me here." The 50/50 argument falls flat on its face imo when you factor in that just because a pokemon can terastilize, it doesnt mean it has a tera type worth using in that instance. These so called "50/50" situations stem from players trying different tera types on pokemon and seeing what works. With the exception of normal and electric, every type has more than one weakness. Just because a tera type can cover a weakness, doesnt mean it covers every weakness.
2) The turn after the type change: While terastilization can negate a pokemons type weaknesses, it can also negate a mons type strengths. Monotypes often fall too lower tiers because the one type by itself isn't enough. While Terastilization retains former STABS, becoming monotype has major downsides. Using Infernape as an example (yes I know he isn't in the game but bear with me), if you Tera type too Pure Fighting type to get some extra damage on a pokemon and KO it, great, mission accomplished. But now Infernape has a problem he never dealt with before, he can get burned. There are tons of small instances like this that you have to factor in before you Terastilize. Blow your load to early and you also open that pokemon up to new weaknesses the team may not be able to cover for.
3) Permanent type change: This is similar to discussion point 2. Once you Terastilize you can never revert back to your original typing, even by switching. As stated before, this opens you up too other weaknesses many times. What I haven't seen any discussion of on this thread is how many mons that Terastilize become more prone to hazard and chip damage by changing types. Tera type Fire and Flying are good offensive tera types, but now you also get the added bonus of taking 25% from Stealth rocks. Sand teams also have to pick there tera types carefully, even going as far to limit themselves to rock, steel, or ground soley so they don't start racking up their own chip damage from sand on their sweeper.
4) No stat change: Simply put, STAB may be augmented to greater heights and a mon can type change into something to resist a move, but at the end of the day, it's stats haven't changed at all. This isn't me trying to downplay the added damage output or resistances gained, however the fact that Health & Speed are factored out of the equation should be stressed.
I would also like to point out, once again, that we are coming off a meta where Dynamax, Z-Moves, and Megas were not present. Meaning that many players aren't used to a new playstyle, let alone a non existent metagame. I would also like to point out that I believe the reason many players are perceiving the mechanic to be more powerful than it is not only has to do with this fact stated above, but also by their choice of items used. And by choice of items, I am referring to Choice Band, Scarf, and Specs. I have caught myself and others liking and using these items less and less while playing with the new mechanic due to the nature of locking into one move only. After I realized my reliance on these items for team building was netting me losses, I limited team building to Choice scarf only on occasion and saw my wins sky rocket. This isn't even because of Tera, I just feel like the versatility of not locking your moves in right now is far better. Furthermore, alot of interesting items were introduced that can often be substituted for the immediate damage output of specs and band. Just thought I'd add this piece in.
I haven't posted here in maybe 10+ years, but I really have to say this because I've been seeing this falsely repeated on here, YouTube, 4chan, Reddit, everywhere I go, and I can't bear it anymore seeing people repeat this and getting hundreds of likes or upvotes.
Sleep clause and freeze clause were absolutely 100% NOT invented by us here on Smogon, or by any competitive Pokémon community.
Sleep clause was taken from an official Pokémon tournament, Pokémon Stadium and I THINK it was even in Pokémon Yellow. It was introduced in Nintendo Cup 97 I believe (freeze clause maybe 98 or 99), which I guess was the equivalent of VGC back then. It's in Pokémon Stadium, which had a big influence on the competitive scene back then as most NetBattle players were Stadium players. As for Pokémon Yellow, in the link battle mode they had Poke Cup, Pika Cup, etc, formats which may have had sleep and freeze clause although not 100% certain on that.
It was something directly copied from Nintendo basically, it wasn't something we came together on a forum and decided to implement.
You guys can do what you want but it shouldn't be used as justification to nerf terastallization, since it's a very different situation.
If, hypothetically, they showed tera types in team preview or restricted it to 1 Pokémon or only STAB types in VGC, a spin-off game and had a Wi-fi mode in SV that did it and you wanted to copy that, that would be more akin to the sleep clause situation.
I haven't posted here in maybe 10+ years, but I really have to say this because I've been seeing this falsely repeated on here, YouTube, 4chan, Reddit, everywhere I go, and I can't bear it anymore seeing people repeat this and getting hundreds of likes or upvotes.
Sleep clause and freeze clause were absolutely 100% NOT invented by us here on Smogon, or by any competitive Pokémon community.
Sleep clause was taken from an official Pokémon tournament, Pokémon Stadium and I THINK it was even in Pokémon Yellow. It was introduced in Nintendo Cup 97 I believe (freeze clause maybe 98 or 99), which I guess was the equivalent of VGC back then. It's in Pokémon Stadium, which had a big influence on the competitive scene back then as most NetBattle players were Stadium players. As for Pokémon Yellow, in the link battle mode they had Poke Cup, Pika Cup, etc, formats which may have had sleep and freeze clause although not 100% certain on that.
It was something directly copied from Nintendo basically, it wasn't something we came together on a forum and decided to implement.
You guys can do what you want but it shouldn't be used as justification to nerf terastallization, since it's a very different situation.
If, hypothetically, they showed tera types in team preview or restricted it to 1 Pokémon or only STAB types in VGC, a spin-off game and had a Wi-fi mode in SV that did it and you wanted to copy that, that would be more akin to the sleep clause situation.
Someone said it earlier, but public team sheets have been required to compete in vgc tournaments for at least the last year (it may be longer, I’m not a vgc player) and that would presumably require writing down your Tera type, as you had to note if a Pokémon was gigantamax or not. The proposed Tera clause doesn’t violate policy, as should be clear by the fact that a member of the council proposed it. Please find a different argument against tera
The only acceptable step forwards would be an out-right ban. Let's not have a repeat of Baton Pass, and get to a place where the meta can finally develop, please.
You're not even willing to try restricting tera? This isn't like baton pass where it's just one move that we ban because people set up entire teams around abusing it. Realistically you can only have 3 or maybe 4 pokemon on you team that you will ever actually tear type in any game if that. Like, when was the last time you saw an Anhiliape team that didn't tera water the ape? What percent of the time do you see a Roaring moon and it doesn't end up tera typing? Finally, if you get rid of terra type as a whole the meta game is going to explode with broken attackers. Half of what is holding balance together right now is defensive terra typing and the other half is corveknight. Granted I'm only playing at about the 1400's level, but most people on the OU ladder are. There's only 500ish people who can play at the 1700's level and for the rest of us tera type is just a lot of fun. If anything I think we should at least try the team preview option and if it ends up not working then we can have another discussion but an outright ban out the gate is so not what we should do. What's the point of having a new gen if all we do is ban the new pokemon and ban the core mechanic?
