Resource SWSH LC Viability Rankings

[wesh papillon]

From B- to B+
See Munch lower than cotonee or drillburr seems very weird... It walls some of the top meta threats such as the rising Ponyta-Galar and more importantly is an excellent koffing check wich can switch into anything but sometime pain split and absorb statues thanks to facade. In balanced teams, Munchlax is a very menacing staple. It always has a problematic weakness to fighting types and only works in fatest teams, making it unable to rise much in my opinion.

I wanted to write my own thoughts on munchlax for a while but it seems someone beat me too it lol. I've used Munchlax a lot and I want to write a more in depth paragraph on it.

From this point on, I will be making the assumption that this is the set being used:

guardian (Munchlax) @ Berry Juice
Ability: Thick Fat
Level: 5
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 76 Atk / 196 Def / 236 SpD
Careful Nature
- Facade
- Fire Punch
- Curse
- Recycle

This is because its the one I have the most experience with (note: Munchlax and Munchlax builds are probably under developed, tho I will get to that later)

in any case, using the current vr, this is how Lax deals with everything In b+ and up

S
Mienfoo

pretty obviously you lose this most of the time, tho for arguments sake

0 Atk burned Mienfoo High Jump Kick vs. +1 0 HP / 196 Def Munchlax: 12-15 (40 - 50%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO

If you can get mienfoo burned ( like say you are using flame body larvesta or ponyta) lax can set up a curse and then you can handle the 1v1, assuming you drank ur juice before hand. tho in all fairness you may sometimes need to 50/50 fake outs vs high jump kicks ( if you recycle as they fake out then can knock off the juice, note than getting burned or poisoned makes this situation an almost guaranteed win)

A+
Abra

sash abra without counter is hard walled by lax ( bar ridiculous hax)

236 SpA Abra Psychic vs. 0 HP / 236+ SpD Munchlax: 10-13 (33.3 - 43.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO ( scouting for counter is usually pretty simple from my experience, tho this could be problematic if ur using lax as your only psychic resist)

If they are life orb, the usual plan is too recycle until you get a good roll and proceed to beat them up

236 SpA Life Orb Abra Psychic vs. 0 HP / 236+ SpD Munchlax: 13-17 (43.3 - 56.6%) -- 59.4% chance to 2HKO
Possible damage amounts: (13, 13, 13, 13, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 17)

Diglett

unless you have significant prior damage and aren't at +1, diglett cant trap with earthquake

236 Atk Life Orb Diglett Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 196 Def Munchlax: 17-21 (56.6 - 70%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

final gambit can be tricky, but of the time you can play around it so some degree


Grookey

grookey usually should be beating munchlax unless you can get a boost prior to it switching in

236 Atk Life Orb Grookey Grassy Glide vs. +1 0 HP / 196 Def Munchlax in Grassy Terrain: 12-16 (40 - 53.3%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO after Grassy Terrain recovery

+1 76 Atk Munchlax Fire Punch vs. 0 HP / 36 Def Grookey: 22-28 (104.7 - 133.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Koffing

Munchlax food, considering getting status is good for you ( facade + reliably chipping you dont to bj range so you dont have to play mind games)

Just dont get thieved lol

Pawniard

Ppl seem to think pawniard is a lax check, it really isnt if you can drink ur juice and get to +1 as it switches in ( you can even kinda yolo it but its unreliable)

156 Atk Pawniard Iron Head vs. +1 0 HP / 196 Def Munchlax: 7-10 (23.3 - 33.3%) -- 0% chance to 3HKO

Ponyta

Munch food, especially if you can get burned

236 Atk Ponyta High Horsepower vs. +1 0 HP / 196 Def Munchlax: 7-9 (23.3 - 30%) -- 95.3% chance to 4HKO

Staryu

Same as ponyta lol

196 SpA Life Orb Staryu Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 236+ SpD Munchlax: 13-17 (43.3 - 56.6%) -- 59.4% chance to 2HKO

you can sorta reliably switch in on even lo (not sure how to calc analytics lol), every other set does even worst

special mention to scald which is so bad vs munch lol

Timburr

You lose to this lol, switch out. Iron fist can get burned, but If you're laddering imo you need to respect guts at least somewhat if your planing to use lax as a wincon.

A
Ferroseed

You setup on this if you drink juice

Foongus

You setup on this if you can get statuses by something else or get something else to sleep

Mudbray

This one also isnt great to run into

196+ Atk Mudbray Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 196 Def Munchlax: 26-32 (86.6 - 106.6%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO

You should prob just switch out

196+ Atk Mudbray Close Combat vs. +1 0 HP / 196 Def Munchlax: 20-24 (66.6 - 80%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

(20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 22, 22, 22, 22, 22, 22, 22, 22, 24)

even at +1 it out damages juice most of the time

A-
Frillish

This is a pp stall war that you usually should win from my experience if you can burn it with fire punch, super boring to play against tho lol

Magnemite

You easily beat this 1v1 but you dont block volt switch and you cant recycle, making this a surprisingly tricky pokemon to play around if you aren't using a ground type)

Mareanie

You beat this if you drink your juice

Ponyta-Galar

this is one is tricky, status lax always beats pony-g

If lax can setup first, pony-g also loses

if pony-g sets up as lax switch in, this is the most common a sorta tricky situation, bc you cant actually hurt ponyta

+1 236 SpA Ponyta-Galar Psychic vs. 0 HP / 236+ SpD Munchlax: 13-16 (43.3 - 53.3%) -- 39.1% chance to 2HKO

you can fish for a better roll, but if they cm on a recycle when u alr have your juice you are in a bad position

In short, this one is unreliable if lax is ur only check

Porygon

+1 236 SpA Ponyta-Galar Psychic vs. 0 HP / 236+ SpD Munchlax: 13-16 (43.3 - 53.3%) -- 39.1% chance to 2HKO

(13, 13, 13, 13, 13, 13, 15, 15, 15, 15, 15, 15, 15, 15, 15, 16)

Much like abra, you can fish for a roll on this one. (this is assuming you switch lax in on a pory that got a good boost from Download and is eviolite (modest), this is what scarf looks like FYI: (13, 13, 13, 13, 13, 13, 15, 15, 15, 15, 15, 15, 15, 15, 15, 16))

For tri-attack hax, burn is good for you, para is fine if they dont get lucky after wards, freeze sucks,

Basically, dont get greedy unless they already got a burn

It prob goes without saying that switching pory in on lax is terrible and you get an attack buff from dl, so u do fuck all lol

B+
Natu

Does fuckall, para is good for you in worst case scenario, u-turn is the only sorta tricky one ig but really you should be fine unless you've a million hazard on the field since u-turn does so little damage.

Trapinch

196 Atk Trapinch Superpower vs. 0 HP / 196 Def Munchlax: 26-32 (86.6 - 106.6%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO

You need to get cursed to live a trapinch hit, but after that, you can set up on it (assuming it has this much attack, most dont)

196 Atk Trapinch Superpower vs. +1 0 HP / 196 Def Munchlax: 18-22 (60 - 73.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Archen

Another tricky mon to run into, since they most often carry knock off, and dual wing beat does quite a bit even at +1,

if you can setup to +1, you can technically beat, tho be noted that you do very little back to archen if you aren't statused

If they run rock blast, the unreliability of the damage can get you in an awkward spot where you need to recycle, but it might not chip you below 50, in which case you can get knocked.

Archen is quite rare tho so take this one on a case by case basis tbh

Dwebble

You prob shouldnt let it setup shell smash or hazard spam lol, I mean you can setup on hazard spam technically but its not really recommended lol

Vulpix

lol


So basically, lax can beat a lot, and even setup on, a lot of viable pokemon. It can act as a solid check/counter to a lot of common mons and acts a solid late game wincon if you can neutralise the opponents fighting type. The longevity allows it to play the long game a lot of the time.

Does wincon lax (guardian), require you to have a fat team like Loulonlou said? Atm, it seems like it sadly. Since the only way wincon lax works is if you outlast mienfoo and timburr, as such, for a longer game to happen, the rest of the team also needs to be good for the long game lol.

Does this mean this is only way to use Munchlax however? I dont think so, like I said, munchlax is very underdeveloped atm, and its move pool might allow it bypass some checks. For example, protect lax can bait mienfoo into missing hjk, their are many possibilities here that might be overlooked for munchlax builds that aren't super ultra fat.

Basically, I think Lax could be at A-, tho this is my super biased opinion, I think B+ is a lot more reasonable than the current B- tho

Edit: (the first of maybe many who knows)

Thank you to Collette for the insight

Stuff I missed mostly cuz I really only used my own lax team, but this is prob a section you should read If you intend to use anything other than mega fat

1. Lax actually has a lot of attack, with max attack and adamant, lax can actually pressure stuff like mienfoo and switch in, same with pawniard, that a fatter guardian lax would not pressure at all

236+ Atk Munchlax Body Slam vs. 0 HP / 196 Def Eviolite Mienfoo: 9-12 (42.8 - 57.1%) -- 12.1% chance to 2HKO
Possible damage amounts: (9, 9, 9, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 12)

236+ Atk Munchlax Fire Punch vs. 0 HP / 36 Def Eviolite Pawniard: 10-14 (47.6 - 66.6%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO

236+ Atk Munchlax Body Slam vs. 88 HP / 156 Def Eviolite Timburr: 9-12 (36 - 48%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

This lax set also benefits using koffing along side it the most, to pressure mienfoos a lot, making foo an unreliable switch in to lax, which is scary

This makes the overlap of stuff that can switch in and stuff that you wall cover basically the entire tier.

2. Using body slam over facade

As noted by colette, facade less isnt as bad as you would think, given that you still spread para and wall everything you stone wall

Body slam greater power and para switch makes it much harder to switch around, which if you are using a more "normal" team, you would really want to consider

3. Other options to consider

Toxic: to beat frill

protect: I already mentioned it before but doing it again, you can lure mienfoo hjk and punish it

Double edge: much stronger than body slam, also can chip you into range of berry juice


Munchlax @ Berry Juice
Ability: Thick Fat
Level: 5
EVs: 236 Atk / 36 Def / 236 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Recycle
- Fire Punch
- Body Slam / Facade / double edge
- Protect / Facade / Curse / Toxic / facade

if you aren't planning on fishing for burns with a larvesta, this is prob what should be considered

If you have something else you want to add to the Lax thesis dont hesistate to message me on smogon lol

 

[PyProd]

My two cents on Munchlax since it is a mon I've experimented quite a bit with as well! I am used to running more HP as it helps with a lot of rolls actually!

Munchlax @ Berry Juice
Ability: Thick Fat
Level: 5
EVs: 236 HP / 36 Def / 236 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Facade
- Fire Punch
- Curse / Endure / Encore
- Recycle

You check LO Abra, Staryu and Porygon as well as other Special Attackers I may have forgotten much more reliably and it makes it harder for Diglett to trap you. The added Def can also allow you to soft-check Ferroseed and Pawniard when Berry Juice is popped (and you are therefore itemless) as they can't ko you unless you're in range. This can be quite handy in a pinch! Oh, and you check Koffing and Ponyta very well too!

Over Curse, as potential options, I've really liked Endure, so as to be able to win against Trapinch as it doesn't OHKO from full with Superpower as well as to handle Dig easier. This can give you quite an upper hand against Fire Spams and Abra + Trapper cores. You can also scout shit from Scarved Pokémon such as Mudbray with this, to make it less effective against your team. You can also fish for an HJK miss for a single turn against Mienfoo in dire situations for what it's worth. Encore is another potential slot, specially designed to check Ponyta-Galar as it tries to set Calm Minds up on you to blow through you eventually. You can also simply use it to enhance setup sweepers.

Too bad Odor Sleuth was cut from the games, it is exactly what Curse Munchlax would need to beat Frillish.

 

[TheKingKarp]

Making a nomination!
from B+ to A-

Looking at recent SCL replays and how the metagame has begun to really rely on Poison/Steel cores makes Xatu especially solid in my eyes. I'd love to hear what others think.

1. Xatu can heavily pressure common poison/steel cores. The most common one that I've been seeing in SCL and running into in my own games is Mareanie/Koffing and Ferro. The combination of Psychic and Heat Wave really pressures a core that so many teams utilize to stay afloat. In addition to that, if you can trade knock offs with Mienfoo, you're in a good spot to OHKO foo with Psychic as well.
2. Ground Immunity and Roost are great tools. Reliable recovery makes switching into the above core much easier, not having to worry about stray t-waves and being able to deny SR and Spikes is excellent, and can really limit the opponent's moves. Another great thing is the immunity to trapping, especially with trapinch becoming more popular lately, Natu has a nice advantage over ponyta-g in that regard.
3. the last move offers a lot of flexibility, t-wave is great for crippling opposing psychic types (especially ponyta-g), substitute and u-turn are also great options that take advantage of the switches Natu can force.
4. although it can fit on standard builds it's also been getting love on Sun teams as it offers rocks deterrent and can take advantage of those sun-boosted heat waves without having to risk giving pawniard a defiant boost.

all in all, I feel like these really positive traits warrant putting natu in A-, I just find it's more useful/consistent than those in B+ (except maybe trapinch) those are just my thoughts, I'd love to see what others think about Natu :D

 

[ACNT]

S :

A+ :
A :
A- :

B+ :
B :
B- :

C+ :
C :
C- :

Unrank :

S/A Rank

The nominations are nothing extraordinary but I still justify them. Mienfoo is the best pokémon of the tier, no surprise. The A+ pokémon are certainly the most splashable pokémon in the tier, Ponyta and Koffing are probably the least good, but BJ Pony has very few switch-ins, while the Flame Body versions can punish Foo and Grook which are absolutely everywhere while Koffing is benefiting extremely well from the resurgence of the Mienfoo / Ferro / Marea cores right now. On the A Rank side, Ponyta-Galar is not a surprise as the CM version has dizzying winrates at the moment, but is not as spammable as the aforementioned mons. This is also the case of Mudbray which has its limits but takes advantage of the lack of good flying pokémon to be very dangerous with its scarf set, while also being good as a SR setter. Timburr loses influence because of the opportunity cost of not playing Mienfoo (except for fightspam) which is extremely strong right now. Abra is not great either at the moment, Mareanie is coming back strong but remains vulnerable to trap, unlike Koffing. Porygon doesn't seem as strong as the rest of the A+ but I admit I don't have much of a case for him, it's personal. Finally, for the A- rank, Foongus is really not very good at the moment, Grookey's Grassy Seed sets prevent him from being completely sure to counter it, and the omnipresence of Mienfoo + Ferroseed cores make him very passive since he often gives Ferroseed the opportunity to place his hazards, and in a meta that lacks hazard control, this is extremely punishing. Natu, on the other hand, takes advantage of the lack of good flying types and the resurgence of Ferro-Mareanie cores to gain in importance, in addition to handling most versions of Grookey acceptably and being quite good against most of the current metagame. Trapinch definitely deserves better than B Rank and has been making a good comeback recently. Vulpix is not as played as many A Rank, but is still very threatening offensively. It was most likely underrated, and a entire playstyle (not that good though) revolves around him.

B Rank

The best "average" pokemons of the tier are found at rank B+. Munchlax is quite undervalued, it is not as passive as it looks and the set curse can destroy unprepared teams. Furthermore, it is quite reliable against Ponyta-Galar which is a pokémon that is clearly on the rise in high-level usage, as well as Ponyta, Vulpix and versions of Abra that don't play Counter. Add to that a plethora of good options, and we have probably the best pokémon in B Rank. Frillish on the other hand is on the downhill slope due to heavy competition from other water types like Staryu and Mareanie, but is still the best spinblocker in the tier at the moment (and I suspect the spikes offense is still pretty underutilized at the moment compared to its viability), as well as a decent pokémon against many threats like Abra, Ponyta-Galar, Koffing or Staryu. It also has a nice number of options, and a scarf set that is quite anecdotal but can occasionally surprise. Finally, Archen is one of the best birds in the tier with Natu. With a big attack and a lot of options, he is also a real offensive threat who can easily crack defensive cores, and can also compress multiple roles when needed, which allows him to be played a bit more often than the rest of the B Tier. In the B Tier, Magby and Zigzagoon are terrific sweepers, but very matchup dependent. Still, they are not extremely hard to place in the current meta and are among the best set-up sweeper choices available for Hyper Offense. Magnemite could be ranked higher, but I personally don't like this pokémon because it relies so heavily on 50/50s. Granted, the Analytic set hits hard, and its matchup against teams without ground type is amazing. But most solid teams play with a ground type, and in these match-ups, you have to win the 50/50 to not lose the momentum or get trapped. For this reason, I have a hard time considering Magnemite as a reliable pokemon, especially since it does nothing but hit hard and try to keep the momentum.
B - ranked mons are either strong in the few things they do but extremely specific, or more splashable but generally outclassed or poorly suited to the current metagame. In the first category, we find mainly Dwebble who is the best LC suicide lead (not really hard) and a quite decent spikes setter for Hyper Offense. Spritzee and Slowpoke are defensive pokémons that are not very well adapted to high-level LC currently, especially because of the rise of Koffing and their passivity. They are still solid defensive pokémons on paper that can work in some teams with specific needs. Larvesta is a bit in between the two categories, it benefits globally from the current metagame but requires too much hazard support to be as reliable a choice as Ponyta despite good resistances and a rather dangerous Choice Scarf set.

C Rank and Unranked

C+ pokemons have more faults overall than those above them, but can be found (quite rarely) at high levels. Wingull is a good example: on paper, its good speed and double STAB is excellent, but this pokémon is simply unreliable because of the precision of its main STAB, which means that playing it in a tournament is always a major risk. Its speed, its ability to make holes and its excellent synergy with Diglett make it one of the best pokémon of the C rank. Tyrunt is a powerful sweeper that is not that difficult to place and is sometimes (rarely) played at a good level, but suffers from less power compared to pokemons like Magby and Zigzagoon. Croagunk should be a better pokémon in this metagame at least on paper, but it suffers as usual from its poor speed and vulnerability to trap. Nevertheless, it is possibly the best pokémon in the C Rank, the Nasty Plot set is still particularly dangerous for unprepared teams, and the pokémon is packed with different options, making it one of the most anti-metagame threats in the tier.
Charmander is an extremely specific pokémon that is only interesting when played in tandem with Vulpix. Although it has a lot of raw power, this pokémon is extremely predictable and is only interesting in one particular team style. Nevertheless, it certainly has better high-level uses than the rest of the C Rank, which justifies its place in C+. Finally, Onix and Drilbur continue to fall into the abyss of mediocrity. The former has become quite bad since the departure of Vullaby and the omnipresence of Staryu and Grookey, the latter is outclassed by Staryu as a spinner, and by Mudbray as a rock setter and Scarf. Onix nevertheless remains played from time to time, while Drilbur can compile the role of rock setter and spinner, which he is one of the few to do in LC. His SD set can also make big holes, but Grookey's presence greatly impacts his viability. At the C Rank level, we find Amaura who is not as bad as it seems. Its main interest in the current meta is probably its Scarf 3 Attacks + Aurora Veil set, in an HO archetype. The other sets are suboptimal; and unfortunately, I think the pokémon is generally misunderstood in the current metagame when used, often played as a Scarf without Aurora Veil, while the pressure this set provides often allows for Aurora Veil to be safely placed on its switch-ins (like Mareanie, who hardly plays Haze anymore, or Staryu). Nevertheless, this pokémon is better than many C- rated pokémons on the old ranking and it is in my opinion a better dual screen setter than the very passive Natu. It is also the best hail setter by far, but Hail Offense is usually terrible, let's be honest. Shellos, Carvanha and Wynaut may deserve a little upgrade to from C- too, I just feel they are currently better than the others C- mons, Shellos is outclassed but overall very solid against most of the metagame and has a good niche with Sticky Hold, Wynaut is a bad trapper but see some uses from time to time, and Carvanha is a very underrated finisher, hindered by the raise of Grookey, granted, but with a surprisingly wide kill range. It does not need that much support, some spikes and knock off are often enough, even if playing it represents a huge opportunity cost and unbalances most of the teams, and this is the reason he is not higher, but the rise of CM Galarian-G Pony makes it a lot better than it was some months ago. Pump-Super definitely needs a ranking, it's probably the second best spinblocker of the tier, it's no longer passive since poltergeist exists and it's a decent mon overall. And we have the C- rank, the bottom of what's more or less playable. I won't last long there, I'll just say that Cottonee needs a severe downgrade for obvious reasons : it's just bad since Scraggy got banned, and I don't think i need to explain why, it's not even a good mon amongst the C- rank. Meowth and Bunnelby are even worse atm : Meowth is just a waste of a teamslot, it has some strong priorities, and that's it. It is frail, has a poor coverage, is usually terrible against everything that is not heavy offense, and heavily unbalances a lot of teams by doing nothing outside of speed control, and since webs are gone, Meowth should disappear as well. Bunnelby on the other side is just terrible right now, it was probably better when sticky web was still a thing, but now it's either too slow for the Life Orb / SD, either not strong enough to be worth it for the Scarf. I see no point using Bunnelby in the current metagame. And last but no least, i'm really sad about it but I don't think my boy Snover deserves to be ranked now. It's just a worse Amaura that does not hit very hard, does not have aurora veil, and the scarf gets trapped by Pinch.
I think that's it.

 

[freezai]

munchlax sucks, zigzagoon is A- Tier, hail is good

 

[PyProd]

> arrives
> "Munchlax sucks"
> refuses to elaborate
> leaves

 

[London13]

Pumpkaboo's a v cool mon atm which i'm surprised hasnt had any usage in scl yet. Covers meta trends of pawn going down, ferro going up, in addition to offering a way to deter hjk spam from foo, tri attack from scarf pory and a ground resist.

I'll edit this later with more stuff, just rambling.

 

[harmony96366]

Pumpkaboo's a v cool mon atm which i'm surprised hasnt had any usage in scl yet. Covers meta trends of pawn going down, ferro going up, in addition to offering a way to deter hjk spam from foo, tri attack from scarf pory and a ground resist.

I'll edit this later with more stuff, just rambling.

i second that. it lures pawn with a 2hko with fire blast/flamethrower, psychics mareanie, has s sneak, packs magic coat, and its stabs are good too.

overall a great mon for supporting, especially sun, but a lot else too.

 

[jns0808]

I think ferroseed should be A+ , it easily keeps up with pawniard and gives it very tough competition for the steel type slot. It is also the ultimate foongus counter, and in general just as good a mon as pawniard is. LPL usage shows they were neck and neck, at 41.88% and 38.03% for pawniard and ferroseed respectively. Yeah, I think this should be an obvious A+

 

[Grapo]

Some stuff about the current metagame in my opinion :
Unranked --> around C or B-
After playing a few games against it and seeing some replays, I definitively think that Sinistea should be ranked. Altough it has its niche in HO (mainly in screens) and is fully walled by Pawniard, Sinistea actually can do amazings tricks when it has the right match up. After its Weak Armor makes effect, Sinistea turns into a devastating threat without many appropriate answers but Pawniard or maybe grookey as a revenge killer. Sinistea also makes a good teammate for the rising zigzagoon in HO teams , since it has the same check in Pawniard which can easily be wear down.

:farfetch C --> C-
Farfetch'd's niche lied in its ability to break through foong thanks to its access to brave bird. now that foongus has fallen a bit, I honestly don't understand why you would run farf over any other physical attacker. Honestly think it should drop to UR.

C- --> B-
I dont know how much Carvanha should rise and maybe I'm not fully objective, but seeing it in the same tier as Shellos (or the textbook definition of useless) is very weird... Carvanha almost always moves first thanks to its great ability speed boost, and it hits hard (especially when paired with Trapinch). Overall a good late game sweeper which can switch-in on the like of Ponyta-Galar or Natu. However it's very weak to commons priority moves such as mach punch and grassy glide. Take in note thats its good attack stat enables it to OHKO a knocked off foo w psy fangs.

Unranked --> C
(Talking about Pumpka-XL) A good Ghost/Grass type allows Pumpkaboo to do some tricks such as reliably switch on Mudbray or Staryu lacking of Ice Beam, act as a sleep absorber, or prevent mienfoo from spamming HJK... Coupled with some key moves such as Fire Blast, Synthesis or Will-o-Wisp, Pumpkaboo actually could be an interesting pick for Bulky Offense teams.

 

[PyProd]

in A-

Seriously, Foongus sucks atm. Ferroseed and Natu being almost omnipresent means it has little room to actually fire off Spores, one of the main things it is good at. In what little room it has left considering matchups are other teams with Foongus where it needs to not get Knocked Off in order to win the Foongus war (which is hard considering what it has to check) and teams without a Spore switchin which have ways around this. Add this to the fact that unlike Koffing or even Mareanie, two better Fighting-checks than Foongus, Foongus has very little means to force progress and is as a result very passive in a game where sequences matter. Psychic-types such as Abra or Ponyta-Galar (and the aforementioned Natu) and Ponyta-Kanto as well as other strong attackers such as Porygon popping back being pretty prevalent in the meta hurts Foongus all the more, while trends on what it checks such as Staryu running Analytic Ice Beam and Grookey dropping a bit in usage (due to recent metagame trends such as Koffing being the most prevalent Fighting-check and Natu, Ponyta and Trapinch usage going up) are not welcoming to Foongus. It still checks somewhat solidly what it needs to, but Foongus has been on a downslope lately.

, and maybe should rise in A too! Ponyta-Galar and Porygon are pretty self-explanatory, while Mareanie cores have been a bit more trendy lately due to the ability to check a plethora of popular mons such as Ponyta or Mienfoo as well as the ability to force progress with Knock Off. Mareanie rising also would reflect the actual metagame in which Foongus is our worst Fighting-check.

EDIT after seeing Timburr nom: should drop to A- too, it suffers from concurrence too great and checks what it has to check less reliably than said concurrence due to being chipped easily. It is like Foongus not something I want to use while building, although it is the only somewhat viable Defogger atm, which is a notable niche.

 

[TheKingKarp]

gotta agree with to A-. Don't want to reiterate too much of what PyProd said but yeah the prevalence of psychic types really make this thing feel so lackluster.

couple other noms
to A

I think the prevalence of psychic types really hinders timburr's ability to thrive in the current metagame. The rise of natu in conjunction with pony-g becoming more popular and the ever-present abra make timburr a really tough choice. Also choosing to use timburr means pretty much committing to fightspam or not using the best pokemon in the metagame (foo)-- so quite a bit of opportunity cost there. Moreover, with the lowering popularity of foongus, the poison that timburr can break with ice punch, just makes it less relevant in my eyes, especially with how popular koffing and mareanie are right now. (thunderpunch timburr??)

to A+
this is a nomination that I'm not extremely keen on but since it was brought up previously I thought I should say something. I think it's a valid point. It offers so much defensive utility but natu's presence holds me back a bit. however the lowering popularity of timburr and increase of porygon's does make this a strong pick

 

[Expulso]

hello, lot of minor tweaks and 2 big issues i have with this vr.

the big ones:

Koffing: A+ -> S- or S
Although it has not equaled Mienfoo's >90% SCL usage, I think that Koffing is clearly the second-best Pokemon in this metagame and should be put in the S ranks. It combines excellent defensive utility with great offensive presence, checking basically every single physical attacker in the tier while also being genuinely difficult to switch into. Chipping down Mienfoo and other Regen mons with Neutralizing Gas is the icing on the cake. The only points I can see against it are:
1) lack of recovery - good removal and/or Pain Split can mitigate this very well, if your Koffing is taking hazards and cant pain split it off that is your fault in the builder
2) abused by uturn into threatening psychics (pony-g, abra, natu a tiny bit) - trappers are super good partners with koffing and completely cover this weakness
3) exploitable by HO - currently true, but koffing can run wisp for mons like onix and tyrunt that now feel more free to setup on it, clear smog to prevent anything from getting that boost, or tspikes to cripple entire HO teams. i think such experimentation is easy to justify in this meta, since koffing only truly Needs sludge bomb + fire blast

Natu: B+ -> A
Natu is way too disrespected on this VR. This mon is extremely good; it completely shuts down Ferroseed and can routinely cripple half a team with Twave backed by its threatening Psychic + Heat Wave combo. Uturn works too if u need the pivot; this move pairs particularly well with trappers, letting u eliminate pawn very easily. since you naturally wreak havoc on ferro teams, natu + trapper can get a super good mu vs just about every team comp. it also is the only flying type, making it a useful check to scarf bray, and it also checks grookey, foo, etc. (albeit shakily due to the 17 spe tie). natu is really good!


=====
minor tweaks:

A+ -> A
All really good mons but A+ is a bit too overcrowded and they're in the ballpark of ferro / mudbray more than diglett / koffing

foongus: A -> B+
foongus is terrible right now, mienfoo knocks and uturns on you for a ton of damage as they freely go to ferro or natu, which are on a ton of teams, block you from sporing and force you out. foongus also really doesnt check anything prominent in this meta besides.... idk, magnemite? non acro grookey? staryu eats you alive, foo does a ton, and 50% or more of the meta outright beats you

magnemite: a- -> b+
hes a bad fish, trappers are really good and so is ferro - this mon just doesnt make much progress. sturdyjuice could be cool in zig era but overall not a good mon

charmander: B- -> B or B+
sun good, better than most mons in b+

zigzagoon: B -> A-
big ass threat that has shown itself to be extremely effective on HO (screens or spikestack) and balance when paired w one mon like memento dug or cottonee. way better than most of what's down in the B ranks

onix: B- -> B+ (maybe B?)
DD is a legitimately good mon. mienfoo brings it in against koffing with uturn, then it dds and kills stuff. the only real common ground type is diglett (not too much mudbray atm) which cant take an attack from onix at all. timburr fell off; you eat a mienfoo hjk so if it's worn down at all it loses (not to mention the possibility of tect). even if you do run into grookey that just means you cant sweep, it can still wallbreak rly hard with the combo of EQ and Head Smash.

munch: B- -> B
he isnt great. but hes ok. checks a ton and you can do funky trap the fighter stuff with it so that he can actually win some games sometimes

 

[PyProd]

Agree with everything but (which should drop to A- imo) and to S. I would like to say that I really love Koffing (as a matter of fact it is on almost all my teams), but for the sake of discussion, I'll focus on its negative points as an answer to Expulso's post.

At first glance, it is true that Koffing is a very splashable Pokémon that can answer most common Pokémon in one slot. However, Koffing looks too exploitable to me to be S. Its limited longevity and it being outsped by Mienfoo means that it ultimately can't outlive Mienfoo to deny Regenerator as long as it would like, due to taking an attack and then being u-turned on or simply being u-turned on and getting against a Pokémon that forces it out, essentially meaning free chip. That means its niche as a Regenerator-denying Pokémon is limited when not talking of things outsped by it. Other Regenerator Pokémon can also cripple Koffing in the long run, with a potential Knock Off or Scald chip from Mareanie, or Psychic coming from Slowpoke. (Foongus is annoying to Koffing with Spore too but Koffing is often paired with Ferroseed or Natu and this Pokémon sucks lmao.) It is not even that durable despite Pain Split somewhat mitigating this, especially if one takes into account that either Pain Split victims are Regenerator Pokémon that can't heal up using the ability or Pokémon without healing moves. It is bound to get blown up due to recovery eventually running low and Mienfoo getting Regenerator back often. Koffing without Pain Split is even less good at checking what it wants to check. Mienfoo isn't the only thing Koffing wants to check however. Grookey, despite its usage being low, can fare similarly to Mienfoo against Koffing and even mean faster chip when both Mienfoo and it are together on a team. If Koffing already has trouble checking what it needs to check, its niche as a catchall physical check is bound to be limited too. I would personally like as least chip as possible on my Koffing when using it due to the place it holds on a team and considering how much checking Mienfoo is important, although if it is paired with Natu it can be used less sparingly.

Koffing still stays a strong behemoth with superb firepower for such a defensive-leaning Pokémon. This is why metagame trends have shifted towards covering it as best as possible. The rise in Natu as a bulky Psychic-type that can't be trapped and has a good matchup against most of the tier certainly spells bad news, especially since it can come against Koffing if Mienfoo has clicked U-turn on the turn Koffing came in. As checks, I need to mention Ground-types such as Trapinch, Diglett, even Mudbray, and another bulky Psychic-type in Ponyta-Galar. Even Onix has resurfaced to punish Koffing's presence in the metagame. They either force Koffing out as it doesn't do anything to them, and thus in a game of interactions can make it so Mienfoo will soften it further, or straight up use it as setup bait. In the meanwhile, Mienfoo will have gotten little to no damage from Koffing. It is true Koffing can run Will-O-Wisp to circumvent some of these trends, but as mentioned earlier, it sets Koffing on the backfoot in its interactions against what it wants to check and the move on that slot can be scouted easily. Koffing can also run Levitate to reverse the matchup against Ground-types, but it is situational in that it doesn't allow Koffing to perform its main role anymore.

As other options, Clear Smog and Toxic Spikes clearly don't offer as much mileage as Pain Split or Will-O-Wisp to me due to these moves being somewhat matchupy and thus not being seen as worth using on most matchups. As I mentioned earlier, even Will-O-Wisp struggles to find use over Pain Split due to the role Koffing desperately wants to keep as much as possible in a team. A special mention to a similarly niche slot in Memento Koffing which is underutilized as a companion to Zigzagoon.

Now I also think Koffing is the second best Pokémon in the tier, hence I am a bit torn between seconding and disagreeing with it in S- rank.

 

[Pamplona]

(I support munchlax rising to B from the peeps above)

Only one new nomination from me and that is shellos rising from C- to B-. After trying it out, it's actually deceptively pretty good in this meta. Grookey is still frustrating for it, but outside of that notable struggle it matches up very well vs a lot of the current meta pokemon. The Facade/Recover/Curse/Amnesia set is the one I'm referring to. If you dodge grookey, I've had matches where if you just get the base 1.5x from curse or 2x from amnesia you can actually close out matches relatively early on (of course it means you're risking crits the earlier you set). Shellos can even catch the meta extremes that stray away from balance (ex. sun) and become a savior.

I've been spectating SCL matches and noticing its uptick in usage there too which led me to experiment a bit with it. Laroxyl got it to work this week (he also got the 1 grookey set [no LO or wood hammer] where shellos can have decent 1v1 odds after a single curse). Luthier arguably should have won with his shellos (after using it I really would have set up a curse earlier than he did for the mudbray) and showed how potent it can be if you don't run into a grookey (legit had 1v6 potential if abra isn't counter). Grookey isn't vital for every team and it's fairly common to miss it considering how prevalent ponyta and koffing are among others which benefits shellos making it not as risky to bring. Also a shoutout to Enzolapras and Osh who have swiss replays with it netting victories if you wanna see more of shellos.

Overall I found shellos pretty simple to use. With proper team support to fight off grookey you can build some solid squads with it for better consistency which is reflected by wins against established names and teams. If you haven't tested shellos out yet I would mess around with it -- hopefully the replays give off some motivation!

SCL replays are pretty easy to find so here are the two swiss ones I mentioned before:
Osh (4-0) vs Expulso (4-0) in round 5 swiss
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8lc-1442748968-v4luza2uu2v5kzifvxfeiki9xqmuom8pw

Enzo (2-1) vs Prodigezz (2-1) in round 4 swiss
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8lc-1439787817-dbrrcs11d4n2o2kv10gv5jnnwl65gpmpw

 

[PyProd]

Seconding to B-. I agree with everything Pamplona said, but I want to talk about counterplay to Shellos.

It turns out Shellos is really hard to play around once it has gotten a boost, only really being able to be broken by the likes of LO Grookey. However, Grookey is a Pokémon that has fallen out a bit atm. It is also checked by popular Pokémon such as Natu, Koffing, and revenge-killed by Trapinch (it can get around Trapinch with the rare Protect, but it has an opportunity cost of not using another potentially better move). Its Life Orb and Wood Hammer recoil is a problem too when it wants to stay healthy for Shellos.

Other counterplay to Shellos takes the form of weakening it to Final Gambit range from Diglett but even that is shaky if Diglett has been chipped by Koffing or by Spikes since bringin Shellos to its range can be a pain. Trapinch teams, due to using Trapinch as their trapper, can't have this way of dealing with Shellos. Most of the time, you also get in a situation where you have sacked two Pokémon to bring down Shellos by using this method of dealing with it, which can have consequences in the remaining of the game.

Since Webs ban, Taunt isn't used at all on Mienfoo sets. Moreover, using it means not using Fake Out on Mienfoo. Taunt also has even less value since the decline of Foongus. Clear Smog or Taunt Koffing and Haze Mareanie are similar, but even worse in that these Pokémon have no place to fit these attacks, and they are unadvisable due to how matchup fishy they are. Even things such as Encore Abra could be considered, but then one realises how useless it is on any other matchup and deems it unworth of the cost. Though these moves can also aid in dealing with HO, they aren't even considered most of the time.

Pokémon that are deemed less viable such as the minute Wynaut can deal with Shellos fine thanks to Encore. However, Wynaut is a less reliable trapper than Diglett and Trapinch. Frillish can put a full stop to Shellos and it is somewhat viable, but it suffers from concurrence and is exploitable. Spritzee packing Encore is another example in that it is a Fighting-check that doesn't check Grass-types in this metagame, which is too much of an opportunity cost.

Luck is the most straightforward counterplay to such a setup behemoth in the tier, but luck is unreliable even though in theory the more time Shellos spends boosting up, the more chance it has to be struck by a Critical Hit. However, theory stays theory, and percentage maths don't reflect reality by essence, only the chance for events to take place or not. Crit chance can also be somewhat dealt with by spreading Paralysis, and Paralysis also helps for Shellos to boost the wanted stat before the opponent can use an attack.

The point is, counterplay to Shellos is shaky at best, and recent metagame trends make it a winner since using moves or Pokémon that can deal with Shellos comes with a huge opportunity cost on other matchups. Add this to Shellos' raw natural bulk meaning it can soft-check most of the Pokémon used in balance teams, so it isn't only a one-trick setup sweeper. I wouldn't raise Shellos higher than B- though, as it still needs a bit of support to truly work well and is a bit luck-reliant while setting up.

 

[Accentgrave]

Hello, i would like to name a few pokemon that I've seen to be quite effective from my experiences with them

B to A

This thing is the main core of any HO teams. With screens support it easily survives a hit and belly drums, and from there its game over. Extreme speed kills any neutral target, Thief kills ghost and steel types, and Seed bomb kills rock types. Thanks to its ability Quick Feet it only really fears burn and paralysis. No pokemon comes without its checks, of course. Eviolite Duskull can survive +4 Thief and punish Zigzagoon with Will o Wisp, assuming it hits. Lastly, Zigzagoon synergies very well with Natu, as Natu is capable of setting up both screens. Thanks to its ability Magic Bounce, with a ghost type it is very easy to keep stealth rocks up, to break sashes.

B- to B+
Onix is a really straightforward pokemon. Thanks to its great 70 speed, Onix is capable of outspeeding most pokemon in the tier. It's job is very simple. Stealth rock, then explosion. Onix also packs protect to stop Fake out. Normal resist with base 160 defense is also really good, and while it's hp is quite low, it more than makes up for it. As such, i believe it is worthy of at least B+ thanks to Sturdy, Normal Resist, Berry Juice, Stealth Rock and Explosion.

(Im also quite new to the forum, am i doing it right?)

Edit 2: After playing even more, i have 2 more nominations UR to C+
I really do believe Duskull deserves a spot on the ranking, at least C+, if not even B-. It's niche is enough to differentiate itself from other ghost types. For starters it has base 90 in both defenses, EV investment can somewhat make up its low HP stat. Duskull has the same tools as the previous generations. Pain Split provides recovery, Will o Wisp is a great tool against Mienfoo and physical attackers in general, Haze is great for stopping sweepers, Taunt is great for keeping hazards up (although a bit prediction reliant since Duskull is quite slow). I would also like to talk about a big new tool it got in gen 8: Poltergeist. Just the sheer power of this move means it deals about 70% to a neutral target, if not even more. I also haven't really seen any pokemon in the meta go no item. Overall I think Duskull is a great pick with a solid niche with enough tools to differentiate itself from other ghost types.

B to A
Natu gets a lot of great tools. Dual Screen is great for HO, which is then complemented by a slow U Turn for a safe switch. Magic Bounce is great to keep Hazards up and to not get taunted, but also to keep hazards off your own side. Psychic typing is great for the many poison and fighting types of the metagames, Roost is reliable recovery, Ground Immunity is always great. Overall, I believe Natu is a great pokemon in HO Dual Screen which I believe warrantes it a place in A

Also, here are all of the sets for the pokemon i nominated:

Onix @ Berry Juice
Ability: Sturdy
Level: 5
EVs: 100 HP / 196 Def / 196 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Protect
- Stealth Rock
- Body Press
- Explosion

Natu @ Light Clay
Ability: Magic Bounce
Level: 5
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpD
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Reflect
- Light Screen
- Roost
- U-Turn

Zigzagoon @ Berry Juice
Ability: Quick Feet
Level: 5
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
- Belly Drum
- Extreme Speed
- Seed Bomb
- Thief

Duskull @ Eviolite
Ability: Levitate
Level: 5
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Spe
Impish Nature
- Taunt
- Pain Split
- Poltergeist
- Will-O-Wisp

 

[Kipkluif]

Hi I have two noms for C tier.
Nothing switches into Poltergeist, Earthquake and Dynamic Punch. Hits that 14 speed for a scarf set. Dies to Grassy Glide and Sucker Punch, 1v1 to most healthy targets will be lost, really needs to threaten a KO to make progress, but if you get in that position that progress will be made.

Remember when we had a mon with Nasty Plot and Weak Armor in the tier? Well here's another, except it's immune to Fake Out and has an actual special attack stat. Can set up on Mienfoo which doesn't OHKO it with Knock Off even after rocks, you just can't break dark types whatsoever and your speed is middling if your opponent plays around Weak Armor.

 

[Accentgrave]

Hi I have two noms for C tier.
Nothing switches into Poltergeist, Earthquake and Dynamic Punch. Hits that 14 speed for a scarf set. Dies to Grassy Glide and Sucker Punch, 1v1 to most healthy targets will be lost, really needs to threaten a KO to make progress, but if you get in that position that progress will be made.

So i have experimented with Golett a bit and tried to come up with a set

Golett @ Weakness Policy
Ability: No Guard
Level: 5
EVs: 84 Atk / 252 SpD / 4 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Rock Polish
- Dynamic Punch
- Earthquake
- Poltergeist

Now, i will start by its weak points. Golett dies in any matchup with a Grookey, Diglett or Pawniard in it, all of which are very common. It also loses to Sash Abra and Scarfers

So, first of all you will need Screens support. You want to be hit by a super effective move while using rock polish. Putting you in a good position to start punching holes in the opponent's team.

Relevant Calculations

196 SpA Life Orb Staryu Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 252 SpD Golett through Light Screen: 19-23 (86.3 - 104.5%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO

0 SpA Frillish Scald vs. 0 HP / 252 SpD Golett through Light Screen: 7-10 (31.8 - 45.4%) -- 100% chance to 3HKO

92 SpA Mareanie Scald vs. 0 HP / 252 SpD Golett through Light Screen: 7-10 (31.8 - 45.4%) -- 100% chance to 3HKO

236 Atk Mienfoo Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Golett through Reflect: 11-14 (50 - 63.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+2 252 Atk Golett Poltergeist vs. 0 HP / 196 Def Eviolite Mienfoo: 19-24 (90.4 - 114.2%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO

+2 252 Atk Golett Earthquake vs. 196 HP / 20+ Def Eviolite Mareanie: 32-42 (133.3 - 175%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+2 252 Atk Golett Earthquake vs. 36 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Koffing: 32-38 (152.3 - 180.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+2 252 Atk Golett Poltergeist vs. 116 HP / 156 Def Eviolite Staryu: 19-24 (90.4 - 114.2%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO

+2 252 Atk Golett Dynamic Punch vs. 84 HP / 108+ Def Eviolite Ferroseed: 20-24 (90.9 - 109%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO

+2 252 Atk Golett Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 36 Def Magnemite: 100-124 (526.3 - 652.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Overall, i believe the set is quite niche.

Another set that came to mind while writing this was a specially defensive (252 hp 252 spdef 4 def) eviolite set with Curse. Dunno how well that would do, i havent really tested it out.

 

[caribouism]

Lickitung from UR to C
When I first started playing LC I was pretty devastated to find lickitung was considered to have no legitimate niche in the meta. It is my favorite pokemon so I ran it anyway. Most of my teams for LC include a lickitung with wish, knock off, body slam, and protect. To my surprise it is actually a solid wall against a good deal of pokemon. With eviolite it is extremely tanky and can take a lot of neutral attacks and then hit back hard with STAB body slam. I have found it surprisingly can win matchups against mienfoo if you can get a protect against their high jumpkick and cause them to crash they are in body slam range. Lickitung definitely suffers from 4 move syndrome as it would greatly benefit from heal bell, however dropping any of its other moves make it extremely passive. Without knock off it can't get do much of anything to normal resists, and no longer has a strong move against abra. Without body slam it has no stab and no means of spreading status which makes it a pretty awful wall. Without protect it can't reliably get off consistent wishes. Without Wish it isn't even a wall at that point. It definitely isn't an S tier pokemon but its high defense and special defense make it a pretty good wall on both sides of the attacking spectrum, and it has won me a good chunk of games as an off meta pick, and without a strong fighting move or status you will have a hard time getting it off the field, even if it's eviolite gets knocked off.

 

[Éric]

hi so lcwc is done for me and i wanted to share my opinions on this metagame bc this thread is dead af LOL this would be my personal, ordered viability ranking with brief explanations:

S rank

come on it's mienfoo

A+ Rank

i think having a poison and a steel is mandatory in every balanced team at this point, and koffing and pawniard are the best of each respectively in my eyes, providing both a lot of utility both offensively and defensively. natu i think provides a whole lot of defensive utility as well, which lets it be in many teams. on the other hand there's porygon, who provides a ton of offensive utility, and is useful in every single match you bring it. so would be diglett, who is able to trap potentially most of the metagame, holding teams defensively and being generally useful

A Rank

all the pokemon in this tier are always good like the a+ guys but dont offer as much either offensively or defensively, like mareanie and ferroseed might be better defensive mons than koffing and pawniard, but losing momentum with them makes them a little inferior in my eyes. ponyta and abra are both very good offensively, but ponyta gets trapped or might get walled depending on the opposing team, and even tho abra is broken (hot take) it doesn't offer a thing defensively, which makes it less justifiable in some teams. trapinch traps a shit ton of stuff in paper, but only will do so like once in a match (twice if you can first impression something), while diglett can trap multiple times throughout a match

A- rank

these mons i find being generally very good, but having some matchups where they won't do much, or have very strong competition. grookey is very strong, and priority is very useful. it can even pick its checks between knock+u turn/drain punch, protect, wood hammer, etc, but in the end it's you can pivot into it or wall it if you play well your poison or ponyta, plus if you're protectless trapinch will trap you. galarian pony i think would be higher if it didn't have the opportunity cost of not being able to run it with kanto pony, and abra and natu being superior offensively and defensively (in natu's case). mudbray is a powerful scarfer that outspeeds porygon, but loses to grookey and natu so it's not unstoppable, and competes with other grounds.

from here i won't go into much detail, might only explain some stuff for each mon

B+ Rank

foongus sucks but if there's no natu and you trap the ferroseed it's useful. frill is cool but passive and staryu or mare offer competition (use offensive frill tho it's fire). onix checks pony and koffing, which makes it useful given it can either set rocks for ferro to set spikes or dd and win. carv can break and is useful with koffing, and dwebble is still a great ho lead imo

B Rank

idt there's anything weird here, other than stunky. stunky is a very good mon that turns its defensive presence (checks psychics and grookey) into breaking power. i explained it in more detail here

B- Rank

i think timburr sucks and pancham is as good because it has zen and better stats. sun sucks too because there are waters, ponytas, stealth rocks, fake outs and trappers everywhere, and vulpix alone is a worthless mon

C+ Rank

the mons here are bad but can be usable. farfetch'd is very good alongside mienfoo, since it hits harder, with better coverage, eject packs with cc for easy traps, and gambits. wynaut can trap one mon each game, which can be huge, but doesnt do that much if your opponent is aware. larvesta sucks and so does defensive spritzee, nothing new

from here the mons are imo close to or even unviable mons, so i won't explain a thing.

hate this list if you want, at least that'd revive this thread a bit LOL

 

[ACNT]

S :
A+ :
A :
A- :
B+ :
B :
B- :
C+ :
C :

Not sure for some of these, but something like that.

 

[Fiend]

We're working on an update again, but this time we are doing something a little different. A few people expressed a great interest in having a community sheet available for more direct input, a lot like other communities already do. For them, I have made a sheet that anyone can contribute to. Please include your name at the top of the column with your ranks. You can look at my example ranking or reach out if you are confused. The Pokemon are in alphabetical order and include almost anything with usage. Further additions will remove the worst of these. If you feel that a Pokemon should be included but was not, you can dm/pm me about it. Do not dm me about .

You can find the sheet [here] and you can find the list of Pokemon to be ranked [here] to help. We will come back in a few days with the rankings in mind.

 

[Fiend]

The OP has been updated with a few changes--39 changes. You can find them in the hide tag below.

VR Changes

A- --> A+
A- --> A+
A+ --> A
A- --> A
A+ --> A
A+ --> A
A --> A-
A --> A-
B+ --> A-

C- --> B+
A- --> B+
B- --> B+
A- --> B+
A+ --> B+
C --> B+
B+ --> B
B- --> B
B- --> B
B- --> B
C- --> B
B- --> B
B+ --> B
B+ --> B-
UR --> B-

B --> C
B- --> C
UR --> C
UR --> C
UR --> C
C- --> C
B- --> C
B- --> C-
UR --> C-
C --> C-
UR --> C-

The VR council has a private sheet for ranking, and overall the trend was that we ranked Pokemon higher than the community at large did. Some of this feels directly like the fault of wesh papillon and Acehunter1 who have joined us. However, we used a mix of the ranks to make an OP that would reflect the metagame as best as we could. Notably, we kept Abra in A+ despite the community ranking it as middle A. Abra is very potent with a few sets that are not easily telegraphed from preview. This leaves the user with a lot leverage during the match. There are some downsides with of how Abra matches up into the Steels given its current coverage and potentially random stuff like Ponyta-G, but overall Abra gives a lot of leniency to the user and can be supported with myriad of Pokemon. It is too strong to be ranked in A.

On the other hand, the aggregate ranking of Magnemite and Timburr from the VR council was were both A-, while the community ranked these Pokemon lower. As a result we followed the community on Timburr, as it seemed simply more in line with its poor win rate (35%) and low usage (8.62%) in LCWC. For Magnemite, we split the difference and ending up with B+ as well. Trap Magnemite with Salac Berry hasn't been panning out as well now, but still remains a menace. Scarf Magnemite is as okay as ever. Magnemite should be ranked lower if its sets continue to fall off. The last set of Pokemon I wanted to specifically note were Charmander and Vulpix, which the community placed in B- and B+. This seemed very odd, given how much these Pokemon depend on each other for relevancy. Vulpix does see usage without Charmander, but it does not perform much better without its strongest partner. Both really fit very well with the middle B crowd.

Differences

Pokemon, VR Council, Community
a+, a
b, b-
b, b-
c-, ur
b-, b
a-, b+
ur, c
b+, b
a-, b
b, b-
c, ur
c, ur
b, b-
b, b-
c, b-
b-, c
a-, b+
c, ur
b+, b
b, b+

We will need to revise this again after LCWC ends as I suspect a few Pokemon are currently overrated relative to how they perform. But for now, thank you to everyone who contributed in this thread, in the LC discord, and with the process.

 

[Fiend]

Following the conclusion of LCWC, we have gone back and shuffled around a few Pokemon. The changes we have made are as follows:

• lowered Ponyta from A to A-
  • Ponyta slides downward still, and this is only partially due to Diglett. Ponyta can still be a menace offensively, but the durability of Ponyta isn't helping it any. This move is a reflection of Ponyta being considered a bit more in the builder, and defensive resources for it generally trending upwards.
• raised Frillish from B+ to A-
  • Frillish was shuffled down to B+ before LCWC, but proved yet again to be an excellent defensive Pokémon throughout the tournament. As trends develop,. Frillish keeps finding ways to be irksome despite more Pokemon supplying coverage for it.
• lowered Ponyta-Galar from A- to B+
  • Ponyta-G has been struggling. It was probably a collective oversight not to lower it during the prior update. Trends towards Pawniard and teams more prepared for Psychic-types are unideal. Using Ponyta-G is often more frustrating that simply running another Psychic with better coverage. There's not too much to it.
• raised Onix from mid B to B+
  • While Onix will miss a Head Smash that would have otherwise made life more pleasant, it has proved to be a great way to supply more pressure against a variety of teams. As a defensive resource that can DD up against more offensive archetypes, the current status quo of common cores is actually rather decent for Onix.
• lowered Timburr from B+ to mid B
  • Few are feeling that Timburr deserves a teamslot, and the metagame trends against it with Foongus being the least used poison-type. It's hard to keep Timburr ranked up with Pokemon who force unequal matchups while Timburr usually stalls out against your common Koffing.
• lowered Shellos from mid B to B-
  • Shellos is generally considered less good than Munchlax at a generally similar role. The Shellos does have some unique qualities, but they are poorly served in this metagame and is nonoptimal.
• raised Farfetch'd-galar from C to B-
  • Perhaps controversial, but Fetch has enough positive qualities that it should be differentiated from the unusables. Maybe I just think it is neat.
• lowered Spritzee from B- to C
  • Spritzee has seen nearly 0 usage forever, and it is time to just admit that no one is using Spritzee, and no one is pretending they can either.
• cut Golett.
  • It is Golett.