Resource SWSH LC Viability Rankings

[Flou]

Bunnelby from C -> D/UR

I don't think Bunny should be kept at C rank. It's a Pokemon that can hit relatively hard with help from huge power, but its combination of Normal type and 16 max speed betray it. Mienfoo outspeeds and OHKOs Bunnelby with High Jump Kick, and Bunnelby can't do anything back without a Swords Dance boost + Quick Attack, which won't OHKO the Mienfoo if it hasn't lost its eviolite (Which also only has a 6.3% chance to KO Foo if it did get knocked)

Bunnelby also loses to Choice Scarf Pokemon like Mudbray Close Combat and Porygon if it gets a Special Attack boost from Download.
Additionally Bunnelby lacks good coverage to hit neutral targets, almost exclusively having Normal, Rock and Ground moves at its disposal.

Another talking point is Porygon. If you wanted a normal type for your team, you're likely playing Porygon, due to its versatility ranging from defensive sets, offensive scarf and agility, teleport pivot, there's no reason to put the bunny on the team unless you want a physical attacker.

Bunnelby just feels really average compared to one of the few good normal types in Porygon, and isn't worth slotting on a team for it to do nothing super well besides maybe putting a hole in a team before dying, and with its 16 max speed, (and the sample running Adamant for 15) may be useless for the whole game.

Overall, I don't think Bunny has what it takes to be in C rank, due to tough competition as a normal type, lack of good coverage options, poor speed stat and poor versatility to make up for it like Pory can, and more.

First post on forums, so if I did something wrong, lmk

 

[CigSig]

Not to be that person but I think Torchic is criminally underrated, been using it for awhile and just hit top ten with it. It sets up for free on most mons in the tier that can only hit it neutrally and can muscle through bulky waters with +2 rockslide considering it lives scalds from the likes of mareanie and frillish especially with berry juice, which also helps its survivability when throwing off flare blitz. Ponyta is major competition but I prefer the ability to OHKO stuff like eviolite trappinch and koffing. Overall I don’t think it should be A tier or anything but I think it’s wild that it’s unranked considering the strength of fire types in the tier, so I believe it should be a minimum of C tier.

 

[wesh papillon]

Not to be that person but I think Torchic is criminally underrated, been using it for awhile and just hit top ten with it. It sets up for free on most mons in the tier that can only hit it neutrally and can muscle through bulky waters with +2 rockslide considering it lives scalds from the likes of mareanie and frillish especially with berry juice, which also helps its survivability when throwing off flare blitz. Ponyta is major competition but I prefer the ability to OHKO stuff like eviolite trappinch and koffing. Overall I don’t think it should be A tier or anything but I think it’s wild that it’s unranked considering the strength of fire types in the tier, so I believe it should be a minimum of C tier.

what was ur team?

 

[CigSig]

what was ur team?

Torchic, dwebble, abra, trappinch and the other two are subject to change

 

[DaSlabhead]

made a smogon acc for this cuz i think some things need desperately addressing:

larvesta need to move up to A at least. that shit with hdb is so good bruh. wisp/blitz/u-turn/morning sun how is anyone dealing w that shit? virtually unresisted stab, spreads burns, checks the most dominant pokemon in the tier, able to u-turn outta any threat. hdb means it can come in on fights without worrying bout rocks cuz let's be honest w evio ur getting knocked off anyway so why waste that item slot when you can check fights better. pair it w diglett and honestly it's one of the most broken pokemon in the tier.

mienfoo down a few tiers. maybe a+. i don't think it's an s rank mon personally. hypothetically let's take this situation: foo vs foo. you lose both speed ties. then it's a complete guessing game on whether you wanna die to the hjk or let a pokemon get knocked. ur neutralised by koffing, larvesta, trapped by diglett. i think it's overrated as shit personally.

koffing needs to move to the s tier too. neutralising gas is easily the most broken and best ability in the game. checks the most broken pokemon in the tier. it's self explantory. blanket checks everything, makes mienfoo almost unviable, and w pain split it has super good longevity it's crack how it's only a+. every time i play it i wanna kms. such a good pokemon and deserves more respect

 

[Éric]

so you think mienfoo is overrated because it might lose the speed tie to itself

to avoid being a oneliner ig: drilbur should move up a few ranks. its been finding success with both the bad 14 speed sets and the good 17 speed ones. its clear that ground type is one of the best in the game to just spam mindlessly, and also being a rocker that guarantees them on natu and spins gives it a ton of utility added to that typing (that allows it to check stuff like koff tyrunt and pony for example). its obviously not the most splashable since it has its problems (competes w other grounds that trap stuff, grook or star food) but should probably be around b somewhere. maybe it is now i have no idea i just wrote this to not get my post deleted

 

[DaSlabhead]

so you think mienfoo is overrated because it might lose the speed tie to itself

to avoid being a oneliner ig: drilbur should move up a few ranks. its been finding success with both the bad 14 speed sets and the good 17 speed ones. its clear that ground type is one of the best in the game to just spam mindlessly, and also being a rocker that guarantees them on natu and spins gives it a ton of utility added to that typing (that allows it to check stuff like koff tyrunt and pony for example). its obviously not the most splashable since it has its problems (competes w other grounds that trap stuff, grook or star food) but should probably be around b somewhere. maybe it is now i have no idea i just wrote this to not get my post deleted

that's 1 of the reasons. yall cant possibly tell me w a straight face a pokemon that has to rely on winning ties and also avoiding getting favouroable rolls is good enough to be s? if u lose both ties w mienfoo, u genuinely lose the game unironically. assuming ur opponent gets the 50/50 right cuz ur foo switch in either gets knocked, or u straight up lose ur mienfoo. this isnt the case w 13 spe foo and i fw 13 foo heavy but thats not meta rn. if it was then it'd be a diff case yk i'd still like it being S

the other reasons like i said is cuz of the presence of koffing just stops its biggest strength. 17 spe gets trapped by dig if it's knocked. lot of things

its a cool pivot and all but it's not THE best mon in the tier. that's koffing

 

[Drifting]

that's 1 of the reasons. yall cant possibly tell me w a straight face a pokemon that has to rely on winning ties and also avoiding getting favouroable rolls is good enough to be s? if u lose both ties w mienfoo, u genuinely lose the game unironically. assuming ur opponent gets the 50/50 right cuz ur foo switch in either gets knocked, or u straight up lose ur mienfoo. this isnt the case w 13 spe foo and i fw 13 foo heavy but thats not meta rn. if it was then it'd be a diff case yk i'd still like it being S

the other reasons like i said is cuz of the presence of koffing just stops its biggest strength. 17 spe gets trapped by dig if it's knocked. lot of things

its a cool pivot and all but it's not THE best mon in the tier. that's koffing

You do realise that if the biggest weakness a pokemon has is losing the tie to itself, that in and of itself is an indicator that the Pokemon is incredible? I mean Mienfoo literally gets like 90+% usage in tournaments for a reason, its combination of power and utility is kinda invaluable (even if I myself generally prefer Timburr).

As for Koffing, that mon is broken for sure but it's got some big weaknesses. Major 4mss between Wisp/Thunderbolt/Thief, being easily switched into by ground types, and most of all it's lack of access to recovery beyond the infamously unreliable pain split means it gets chipped kinda easily, especially considering that it often won't have an Eviolite most of the game (and who is the reason for that? Mienfoo).

I'd say Koffing is a top 5 mon, maybe even top 3. Foo and Natu are a cut above though and the usage stats back that claim up.

 

[DaSlabhead]

You do realise that if the biggest weakness a pokemon has is losing the tie to itself, that in and of itself is an indicator that the Pokemon is incredible? I mean Mienfoo literally gets like 90+% usage in tournaments for a reason, its combination of power and utility is kinda invaluable (even if I myself generally prefer Timburr).

As for Koffing, that mon is broken for sure but it's got some big weaknesses. Major 4mss between Wisp/Thunderbolt/Thief, being easily switched into by ground types, and most of all it's lack of access to recovery beyond the infamously unreliable pain split means it gets chipped kinda easily, especially considering that it often won't have an Eviolite most of the game (and who is the reason for that? Mienfoo).

I'd say Koffing is a top 5 mon, maybe even top 3. Foo and Natu are a cut above though and the usage stats back that claim up.

i aint denying its a good pokemon, im just saying its not the best cuz it does have flaws. it just has less flaws relative to the rest of the tier. and like i've been saying i tihnk koffing just got less flaws so i don't think foo should be in s when there's a better pokemon sitting in the tier below.

ground types can switch into koffing all they like but they just get burned. wisp pain split sludge bomb tbolt. spreading poison/burns, stopping foo regen, checking grookey, etc bro is just a menace to play again it's not useless vs any pokemon.

i dont fw natu cuz it's a guessing game vs most hazard removers but that just my personal opinion yfm

 

[Drifting]

i aint denying its a good pokemon, im just saying its not the best cuz it does have flaws. it just has less flaws relative to the rest of the tier. and like i've been saying i tihnk koffing just got less flaws so i don't think foo should be in s when there's a better pokemon sitting in the tier below.

ground types can switch into koffing all they like but they just get burned. wisp pain split sludge bomb tbolt. spreading poison/burns, stopping foo regen, checking grookey, etc bro is just a menace to play again it's not useless vs any pokemon.

i dont fw natu cuz it's a guessing game vs most hazard removers but that just my personal opinion yfm

Genuinely, what flaws does Mienfoo have that don't have anything to do with opposing Mienfoo? I really cannot think of any, the mon is a perfect all-rounder.

Dropping your fire move on Koffing just means steel types wall you, which is obviously undesirable, since Koffing has no pivot moves (e.g slows your momentum to a halt), it just becomes Knock and hazards fodder. I prefer sludge/wisp/blast/split, but even with this set it doesn't change Koffing's main weakness. It counters Foo and Grookey sure, but can it counter both? Or counter one for an extended period of time? Not really, it just gets chipped way too easily. Many things that exploit Koffing don't care about getting burnt also (e.g. RestTalk Mudbray, Frillish)

As for Natu, Magic Bounce is just a small facet of why it is so good. in many ways it's like Mienfoo, with access to pivoting, reliable healing, and good stats (especially speed). Obviously you cant just switch it into Pawniard without getting blown up sometimes, but its presence will always make an opponent hesitate to click rocks, and as for Ferroseed it literally can just come in on it easily. Add to this the impossible to switch into (except for like Frillish and Defensive Porygon) Psychic/Fire coverage, an immunity to Arena Trap, and a huge variety of viable sets and roles, makes Natu easily the second best mon in the tier (I think it is S alongside Mienfoo but the haters try to silence me).

I hope this helps get my point across more, since the last post was pretty brief.

 

[DaSlabhead]

Genuinely, what flaws does Mienfoo have that don't have anything to do with opposing Mienfoo? I really cannot think of any, the mon is a perfect all-rounder.

Dropping your fire move on Koffing just means steel types wall you, which is obviously undesirable, since Koffing has no pivot moves (e.g slows your momentum to a halt), it just becomes Knock and hazards fodder. I prefer sludge/wisp/blast/split, but even with this set it doesn't change Koffing's main weakness. It counters Foo and Grookey sure, but can it counter both? Or counter one for an extended period of time? Not really, it just gets chipped way too easily. Many things that exploit Koffing don't care about getting burnt also (e.g. RestTalk Mudbray)

As for Natu, Magic Bounce is just a small facet of why it is so good. in many ways it's like Mienfoo, with access to pivoting, reliable healing, and good stats (especially speed). Obviously you cant just switch it into Pawniard without getting blown up sometimes, but its presence will always make an opponent hesitate to click rocks, and as for Ferroseed it literally can just come in on it easily. Add to this the impossible to switch into (except for like Frillish and Defensive Porygon) Psychic/Fire coverage, an immunity to Arena Trap, and a huge variety of viable sets and roles, makes Natu easily the second best mon in the tier (I think it is S alongside Mienfoo but the haters try to silence me).

I hope this helps get my point across more, since the last post was pretty brief.

gets knocked and it becomes a liability to lo dig, basically made useless by koffing, has to try avoid burns from larvesta. 3 main ones.

now compare this to koffing's flaws: 4mss. it ain't even that big of a deal cuz i personally feel the set i mentioned earlier covers everything. sure it can't touch ferro but getting a burn on ferro still huge then you can switch into like natu. alternatively drop tbolt for flamethrower but u give up any ability to touch marenie even tho ig you can stop regen which is kinda huge.

so in my honest opinion, koffing and mienfoo should switch ranks.

i agree w you on natu tho. it's a good pokemon top 3 in the tier fs, but i think it's a bit worse than koffing personally

 

[Berks]

gets knocked and it becomes a liability to lo dig, basically made useless by koffing, has to try avoid burns from larvesta. 3 main ones.

now compare this to koffing's flaws: 4mss. it ain't even that big of a deal cuz i personally feel the set i mentioned earlier covers everything. sure it can't touch ferro but getting a burn on ferro still huge then you can switch into like natu. alternatively drop tbolt for flamethrower but u give up any ability to touch marenie even tho ig you can stop regen which is kinda huge.

so in my honest opinion, koffing and mienfoo should switch ranks.

i agree w you on natu tho. it's a good pokemon top 3 in the tier fs, but i think it's a bit worse than koffing personally

if you gave Koffing reliable recovery, I think you'd actually be correct here. as it stands, Koffing is easy enough to pressure and wear down - especially because it has to eat Knock Off from Mienfoo every game - that its impact on a match is never S-tier impact.

everything knocked and trappable is a liability to LO Diglett, Koffing gets worn eventually, and Flame Body Larvesta (and Ponyta too) have to fish for burns. Miento is consistently impactful, versatile in its sets, and difficult to wear down. it's S-tier, always has been, and probably always will be!

 

[wesh papillon]

I think if ur repeatitly risking speed ties with mienfoo for no good reason then yeah, it would suck. The key to meinfoo is really pivoting with regenerator. You can blanket check a decent amount of pokemon and u can nab momentum of predicting safe u turn and knocks. if you always lead mienfoo, fake out, trade knock, and insta click HJK, then mienfoo isnt the issue.

As for koffing, it is good for sure. I personally think its the third best pokemon (my #2 might surprise you), but its not without flaws. Mainly, that, despite having maybe the best stab+coverage combo, it can often time get stuck clicking pain split a lot. after it gets knocked, which afaik is almsot innevitably( unless ur playing thief ig), it takes 30% from HJK and 25% from a knock from a standard foo, meaning with rocks up, u essentially need to stay at 70% or move to live 2 hjk, at lower health (60% and lower with rocks or 55 with no rocks, which isnt even that low), you can lose mid ground options since knock into hjk kills.

its also important to note that koffing shares a lot more competition then mienfoo. Marianne, foongus, larvesta, morelull, and even spritzee if ur weird can all check mienfoo, where as mienfoo really isnt contested at all, timburr is a fighting type but it doesnt have regenerator or u-turn so it function pretty much as a duelist/ setup sweeper/ removal, and isnt a good pivot at all. The only other mon that has access to pivoting moves and regenerator and a pivot move is slowpoke, which is too slow and weak to really put pressure the way mienfoo does ( im not saying I think its bad but Mienfoo being able to force stuff out and nab momentum obv makes it way better than slowpoke).

Finally I think foo also has a lot more versatility than ppl give it credit for, imo fake out is very overrated and shouldnt be used as often as it is, the only moment where I think its good is when ur losing Half ur team to magby and ur forced to slowly kill it with fake outs ( I love magby). I think mienfoo isnt stuck is as rigide of a copy paste sets as people and very small details can impact mu a lot, tho I will keep these a secret for me and the scrubs if u dont mind :3.

 

[DaSlabhead]

I think if ur repeatitly risking speed ties with mienfoo for no good reason then yeah, it would suck. The key to meinfoo is really pivoting with regenerator. You can blanket check a decent amount of pokemon and u can nab momentum of predicting safe u turn and knocks. if you always lead mienfoo, fake out, trade knock, and insta click HJK, then mienfoo isnt the issue.

As for koffing, it is good for sure. I personally think its the third best pokemon (my #2 might surprise you), but its not without flaws. Mainly, that, despite having maybe the best stab+coverage combo, it can often time get stuck clicking pain split a lot. after it gets knocked, which afaik is almsot innevitably( unless ur playing thief ig), it takes 30% from HJK and 25% from a knock from a standard foo, meaning with rocks up, u essentially need to stay at 70% or move to live 2 hjk, at lower health (60% and lower with rocks or 55 with no rocks, which isnt even that low), you can lose mid ground options since knock into hjk kills.

its also important to note that koffing shares a lot more competition then mienfoo. Marianne, foongus, larvesta, morelull, and even spritzee if ur weird can all check mienfoo, where as mienfoo really isnt contested at all, timburr is a fighting type but it doesnt have regenerator or u-turn so it function pretty much as a duelist/ setup sweeper/ removal, and isnt a good pivot at all. The only other mon that has access to pivoting moves and regenerator and a pivot move is slowpoke, which is too slow and weak to really put pressure the way mienfoo does ( im not saying I think its bad but Mienfoo being able to force stuff out and nab momentum obv makes it way better than slowpoke).

Finally I think foo also has a lot more versatility than ppl give it credit for, imo fake out is very overrated and shouldnt be used as often as it is, the only moment where I think its good is when ur losing Half ur team to magby and ur forced to slowly kill it with fake outs ( I love magby). I think mienfoo isnt stuck is as rigide of a copy paste sets as people and very small details can impact mu a lot, tho I will keep these a secret for me and the scrubs if u dont mind :3.

turn 1: i lead mienfoo, my opponent leads mienfoo
turn 1: i click fake out, he clicks fake out. i lose speed tie
turn 2: i click knock off, he clicks knock off. i lose speed tie (cuz why tf would i click another move yk cuz then i gain nothing so knock 2nd turn always the play)
turn 3: see now im in a situation i can die to hjk. i aint gonna click uturn but i also dont want my foo check getting knocked literally turn 4 into the game. i can make the aggressive play, stay in absorb the u-turn and click knock but that just a 50/50 w the possibility of either my foo check being knocked so early in the game or me losing my foo entirely. if ur opp clicks u-turn he a pussy that can't capitalise off of a potentially deadly turn i'm sorry. hjk is 9/10 the play but if ur opp is feeling ballsy he can knock too. too luck reliant to be a sustainable lead at times unles ur using 13 spe foo, but even then w the opposing 17 spe foo getting some favourable rolls you can still get into the same situation.

losing the initial 2 speed ties puts u in a horrendus spot. i'd argue if u lose the 2 speed ties w foo u basically lose my game. i promise u if i conducted a stastical analysis of this it'd be heavily skewed towards the ppl losing the 2 speed ties losing the game. can a pokemon rlly be s tier if it winning a tie dictates the game?

as for koffing, idk about u but i don't ever run koffing as my main foo check personally. koffing is always essential on any one of my teams. then i usually go for larvesta, sometimes foongus if i'm feeling a lil bit feisty. koffing is always an insta lock on my team just cuz it can blanket check most the meta and annoying offensively. i don't think u lose anything by putting koffing on ur team, whereas regen foo, ur forced to lead it, and if u lose both speed ties u lose the game. my opinion personally i think foo is great but overrated as shit, maybe i gotta start using cb more that's kinda heat. 13 spe foo a lil bit more favourable for the lead mu

 

[Merritt]

turn 1: i lead mienfoo, my opponent leads mienfoo
turn 1: i click fake out, he clicks fake out. i lose speed tie
turn 2: i click knock off, he clicks knock off. i lose speed tie (cuz why tf would i click another move yk cuz then i gain nothing so knock 2nd turn always the play)
turn 3: see now im in a situation i can die to hjk. i aint gonna click uturn but i also dont want my foo check getting knocked literally turn 4 into the game. i can make the aggressive play, stay in absorb the u-turn and click knock but that just a 50/50 w the possibility of either my foo check being knocked so early in the game or me losing my foo entirely. if ur opp clicks u-turn he a pussy that can't capitalise off of a potentially deadly turn i'm sorry. hjk is 9/10 the play but if ur opp is feeling ballsy he can knock too. too luck reliant to be a sustainable lead at times unles ur using 13 spe foo, but even then w the opposing 17 spe foo getting some favourable rolls you can still get into the same situation.

losing the initial 2 speed ties puts u in a horrendus spot. i'd argue if u lose the 2 speed ties w foo u basically lose my game. i promise u if i conducted a stastical analysis of this it'd be heavily skewed towards the ppl losing the 2 speed ties losing the game. can a pokemon rlly be s tier if it winning a tie dictates the game?

as for koffing, idk about u but i don't ever run koffing as my main foo check personally. koffing is always essential on any one of my teams. then i usually go for larvesta, sometimes foongus if i'm feeling a lil bit feisty. koffing is always an insta lock on my team just cuz it can blanket check most the meta and annoying offensively. i don't think u lose anything by putting koffing on ur team, whereas regen foo, ur forced to lead it, and if u lose both speed ties u lose the game. my opinion personally i think foo is great but overrated as shit, maybe i gotta start using cb more that's kinda heat. 13 spe foo a lil bit more favourable for the lead mu

Isn't all of this is based on a Mienfoo vs Mienfoo speed tie? While losing speed ties puts you in a "basically losing" position here, the person winning speed ties with Mienfoo has "basically won" the game. When both players are using Mienfoo, they can't both win, that's just not how the game works. This is every bit as much a good thing for Mienfoo as it is a bad thing, but it's absolutely indicative of how incredibly important you've made Mienfoo out to be during any given game, where its survival has a massive impact on whether or not you win. That sure sounds like a metagame defining S rank Pokemon to me.

You also certainly aren't forced to use Mienfoo as a lead, and the popularity of doing so actually means counterleading isn't uncommon. Mienfoo's just less vulnerable to them due to U-turn and Fake Out access, which are again points in its favor. Even as you say that running Koffing doesn't lose you anything, I'm unsure how this isn't the case for Mienfoo in your eyes after your passionate statements about how influential your Mienfoo living or dying is, and how much pressure it puts onto the opposing team when it's on the winning side of that earlygame scenario.

Honestly, a lot of this comes across in the same vein as saying that Sneasel wouldn't have been an S rank Pokemon because it can lose the speed tie to opposing Sneasel and be KOed. This isn't to say that Mienfoo is broken or game changing in the same vein as Sneasel, but rather that the argument you're using is pretty bad.

 

[wesh papillon]

turn 1: i lead mienfoo, my opponent leads mienfoo
turn 1: i click fake out, he clicks fake out. i lose speed tie
turn 2: i click knock off, he clicks knock off. i lose speed tie (cuz why tf would i click another move yk cuz then i gain nothing so knock 2nd turn always the play)

Alternatively: doing quite litteraly anything else, you have 6 mons lol why not lead with something else sometimes?

turn 3: see now im in a situation i can die to hjk. i aint gonna click uturn but i also dont want my foo check getting knocked literally turn 4 into the game. i can make the aggressive play, stay in absorb the u-turn and click knock but that just a 50/50 w the possibility of either my foo check being knocked so early in the game or me losing my foo entirely. if ur opp clicks u-turn he a pussy that can't capitalise off of a potentially deadly turn i'm sorry. hjk is 9/10 the play but if ur opp is feeling ballsy he can knock too. too luck reliant to be a sustainable lead at times unles ur using 13 spe foo, but even then w the opposing 17 spe foo getting some favourable rolls you can still get into the same situation.

I think u misunderstand this situation heavily. After a fake out and knock trade, the mienfoo who won the fake out trade is at 18, the loser is at 15

0 Atk Mienfoo High Jump Kick vs. 0 HP / 196 Def Mienfoo: 16-19 (76.1 - 90.4%) -- 50% chance to OHKO (I put the mienfoo here at 15 hp)
Possible damage amounts: (16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 18, 18, 18, 18, 18, 18, 18, 19)

If both players click HJK like ur proposing, the player who LOST the tie t1, not only needs to win the tie, but they also need to get the better end of a 50/50 roll, bar misses, this means they have a 25% chance of being in a great spot, and 75% chance of being in a fucking awful position. switching to a fight resist makes it a (almost) 100% chance to be in a generally ok spot tho slightly losing, which is fine, a better players can def win from that position.

The player who lost the speed should, as such, almost always be switching out, in theory at least.

Now, for the player who WON the tie:

if ur opp clicks u-turn he a pussy that can't capitalise off of a potentially deadly turn i'm sorry. hjk is 9/10 the play but if ur opp is feeling ballsy he can knock too.

This is very much incorrect, considering almost any good player would not risk the game on a speed tie, clicking u turn or knock off is keeping a slightly better position most of the time, HJK just saps the momentum u gained at that point vs anyone aware of the position.

losing the initial 2 speed ties puts u in a horrendus spot. i'd argue if u lose the 2 speed ties w foo u basically lose my game. i promise u if i conducted a stastical analysis of this it'd be heavily skewed towards the ppl losing the 2 speed ties losing the game. can a pokemon rlly be s tier if it winning a tie dictates the game?

Yeah duh? You can also say that the player who won the tie is in an amazing position therefore foo is broken. It also assume that u massively misplayed the opening already. It would be like analyzing a chess game where u blunder the queen at the start and saying that the queen is a bad piece because losing it at the start loses you the game.

as for koffing, idk about u but i don't ever run koffing as my main foo check personally. koffing is always essential on any one of my teams. then i usually go for larvesta, sometimes foongus if i'm feeling a lil bit feisty. koffing is always an insta lock on my team just cuz it can blanket check most the meta and annoying offensively. i don't think u lose anything by putting koffing on ur team, whereas regen foo, ur forced to lead it, and if u lose both speed ties u lose the game. my opinion personally i think foo is great but overrated as shit, maybe i gotta start using cb more that's kinda heat. 13 spe foo a lil bit more favourable for the lead mu

I mean if ur running larv AND koffing, yes congrats, you will have an AMAZING mienfoo mu, but in general your team will have weak MU vs other key mons, this is hard pinpoint without looking at an actual team but in practice larv+ koff teams almsot end up somewhat janky, since the larv isnt properly supported. Also acting like koff is fool proof and perfect is wrong, it does have pokemons that give it a hard time.

 

[Charis_Akins]

i aint denying its a good pokemon, im just saying its not the best cuz it does have flaws. it just has less flaws relative to the rest of the tier. and like i've been saying i tihnk koffing just got less flaws so i don't think foo should be in s when there's a better pokemon sitting in the tier below.

ground types can switch into koffing all they like but they just get burned. wisp pain split sludge bomb tbolt. spreading poison/burns, stopping foo regen, checking grookey, etc bro is just a menace to play again it's not useless vs any pokemon.

i dont fw natu cuz it's a guessing game vs most hazard removers but that just my personal opinion yfm

If Mienfoo didn't have flaws, it would be banned. Mienfoo is not banned, so yes there are ways to beat it. Poisons wall it, Larv can status it, you can trap it and stuff like Abra threaten it out. But its not what Mienfoo CAN'T do which makes it the best in LC, but what it CAN do.

Saying Mienfoo shouldn't be in S is like saying "Lando T isn't S tier, it's walled by corviknight and grass types, plus ice types like weavile and water types can KO it". Its not that they have zero or the fewest weaknesses, its that both mons are the best at several roles which are essential in their tiers. In LC, Mienfoo it's one of, if not the best Knock Off spreader and pivots in the tier while having good damage output. All three are extremely valuable in LC and no other mon in the metagame can do those things as effectively, at the same time, as Mienfoo. That is why people consider it the best mon in LC.

You mentioned Koffing as a contender that should replace Mienfoo in S. Koffing can do a lot of really helpful things, but none are quite as crucial to the game as what Mienfoo can do. Even if you have a Koffing and you switch it into Mienfoo, you can't stop it probably Knocking off your Koffing and other mons or uturning. Those things are more valuable than spreading will-o-wisp, denying Regen, or walling something for a few turns (koffing is not a "blanket check" to threats repeatedly like you describe because of how easily it gets worn down, I think you are overestimating the recovery of Pain Split). Again, those things are very useful, but not the same level of utility Mienfoo can bring.

If you are worried about losing speed ties with opposing Mienfoo in the lead matchup, just lead another mon. You aren't forced to lead Foo 100% of the time, going Koffing or Larv or another foo check is just as valid. Of course the amount of Mienfoo leads right now means leading something that isn't a straight up counter or your own Mienfoo is just suboptimal in most cases.

Hope this clears some things up about Mienfoo and the current state of the metagame. Foo doesn't have a 90-something percent usage rate for nothing. It is definitively the best mon right now in Little Cup.

 

[Shandeur]

B- --> B

This will probably be my last VR post until SV, unless something comes up.

Stunky is a very potent wallbreaker right now, and it's AOA set is the main reason why. Dark + Fairy + Fire coverage is insanely strong and only a few things can wall it, such as Bulky Ground types. I've been running Stunky with spikes with the amount of switches it forces, and it's been working wonders. It's not even that weak to Diglett since LO Sucker Punch can drop non Eviolite variants. Crunch's defense drops can also break through certain walls that Stunky can sometimes struggle with, such as Mareanie.

Replays:

Myself vs Spl4sh in LC Last Chance Round 2: Stunky is able to breakthrough Mienfoo and Mareanie with a little help from RNG, and Sucker Punch eventually helps get rid of Porygon.

Ninjadog vs Acehunter1 in SCL Week 5: With help from Eject Button Cottonee, Stunky breaks down Ferroseed, Diglett, and weakens Mareanie enough to be trapped by Diglett.

Due to these reasons, I believe Stunky should be raised higher on the VR.

P.S: Nuke Bunnelby off the VR nobody thinks it's good/uses it seriously

 

[Roldski32]

There's a community vr sheet posted in discord, and i'm gonna share my personal reasoning about why i put some mon in certain rank here ( my rank vote in the sheet rn is not right and is messed up, someone must have changed my votes)

- To A
I'm actually tempted to rank A+ on this one initially, because i have personal bias on it. MAN, I LOVE FERROSEED and i used this a lot more than I've used Pawniard in almost the entire Post-Vull meta. The main reasoning for A is just to keep my bias in check

To B+
Larvesta is great, its a Mienfoo + Grookey check that isn't a poison. I personally think one of best way to used Larvesta is to frequently click U-turn, like forget crippling something with Wisp, just spam U-turn a lot like no-brainer and capitalized on its slow pivot capabilities. Its prone to get trapped by Rock Slide Digett, but I'd still think only low ladder people runs Rock Slide Diglett, because they loved Rock-coverage so much (also Sash physical), i don't actually know what's the viable use of Rock Slide on Diglett outside of Larvesta in a high-level play, Natu is already covered by Beat Up. Its 4x weakness to Stealth Rock is annoying, and you have to divert your team (half of your team) into preventing rocks as much as possible, through using Natu and a removal like Staryu ( i've seen few people experimented a Larvesta team without a spinner before, tho). Larvesta couldn't run Heavy-Duty Boots viably because every switch-in to Fighters will almost always lose their item in any given game.

- To B+
Trapinch is good, but i find it a little bit harder to fit onto team sometimes, and i've barely seen this mon used outside of PoryPinch builds. If your looking for a Grookey trapper, you're better off with Sash Special Diglett imo because its much more consistent at trapping Grookey than First Impression Trapinch.

- To B
SturdyJuice set and Magnet Pull Salac set are niche at best, personally, and i'd still think Scarf is Magnemite's best set. Scarf Magnemite is so awkward to tier because its either liable to get trapped by Diglett/Trapinch or it goes crazy when it ran into a Ground-less teams. Analytic Volt Switch hits very hard and can be hard to switch into without Ground-type.

To B
Scarf Mudbray is a bit hard to used due to high Natu usage, and as a bulky Ground, it competes with Drilbur who had better utility in Rapid Spin and Mold Breaker Stealth Rock.

To B
My only issue, personally, is that bulky-ground can be a little bit awkward to fit sometimes, and that's why i ranked it B, but outside of that, Drilbur is actually amazing. Its ability to bypass Natu's Magic Bounce with Mold Breaker Stealth Rock and considering the fact that a lot of Natu teams don't pack removal whatsoever, is really great. Rapid Spin is a nice thing to have as well due to scarce amount of removal in this tier.

To C
Ponyta-Galar is still an okay mon, but its biggest problem is just it get outcompeted by the other 2 Psychics. The main niche it has over Abra is that it has some bulk, but that niche is completely taken away by Natu, who provided far better utility from its Flying-typing, Magic Bounce, and its access to U-turn (and to some extent, Thunder Wave). Pony-G is still okay, but its so hard to justify using this over Natu or Abra

To D
i wish Return isn't dexited, because man, Strength is just misses out some KO that Return achieves. Yes, it has Huge Power, but Bunnelby isn't very strong like its ability would suggest. Bunnelby's Huge Power Strength hits just about as hard as 18 Atk Ponyta's Flare Blitz, they actually deals almost the same damage against neutral targets, even Mienfoo isn't far off from Huge Power Strength's damage output, with 0 Atk High Jump Kick. Porygon's +1 Tri Attack deals nearly same damage as well.

To D
This one was ranked on C when Zigzagoon was around as a sweeper that could lure Pawniard and crippled it with Wisp. This mon is only exclusive to Screens HO, and i don't think its C Tier.

To D
I actually used the same Berry Juice set from Gen7, because it could act as a Mienfoo + Grookey that can used Koffing as a Spikes fodder. But its a very small niche, and it wasn't particularly good. And even with the Eject Button set on sun team, I don't think its C Tier.

To D
This one was only ranked to C because someone uses it in SCL last year, and i've almost never seen this mon after that (except for that specific Venipede user). Spikes is cool, though

To D
At first, Wingull looks decent, Water/Flying is a great STAB combo and it has 19 Speed to work with. My problem? its so inconsistent. There's case it just deals 0 damage because it misses a Hurricane a lot, its also frail too.

To UR
What does these mon do again?

 

[Fiend]

Long overdue, the final update of this generation as a current gen is here. Thank you to the 31 of you who contributed this time, and the many who have contributed to this project throughout the generation. On the eve of gen 9 launching, I hope you stay around for this new experience.

While the vast majority of rankings were driven by the community directly, 7 small changes in the lower ranks were addressed by the VR Council. Stunky was bumped down to B-, and Snover was paired with Sandshrew-Alola in B-. Golett was locked to C, whereas Chinchou, Lileep, and the Small Pumpkaboo were saved from UR and kept in D. Venipede was dumped into D. I have added a note preceding the C and D ranks as well, indicating their purpose and the lack of purpose for the Pokemon condemned there.

Current Rank -> New Rank

Grookey a -> a+
Ferroseed a+ -> a
Ponyta a- -> a
Tyrunt a- -> a
Carvanha a -> a-
Mareanie a -> a-
Timburr b -> a-
Drilbur b -> b+
Magnemite b -> b+
Dwebble b+ -> b
Mudbray b+ -> b
Onix b+ -> b
Vulpix b+ -> b
Farfetch'd-Galar c -> b-
Foongus b -> b-
Golett d -> c
Munchlax b -> b-
Shellos b -> b-
Wynaut d -> c
Cottonee c -> d
Croagunk c -> d
Shellder c -> d
Sinistea c -> d
Trubbish c -> d
Bunnelby c -> ur
Dewpider d -> ur
Mincinno d -> ur
Salandit d -> ur
Scorbunny d -> ur
Skrelp d -> ur
Togepi d -> ur
Zorua d -> ur

While this is no means a final list, it seems like a solid VR for someone learning the metagame as an old gen to have. The limited dex is very apparent.