We aren't in Kanto or Hoenn, either. From my understanding, the only reason the base forms were considered "confirmed" in the first place was because they share the same slot in the Pokedex with the Galarian forms.
-
Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
-
Congrats to the winners of the 2023 Smog Awards!
Sword&Shield&Speculation!
- Thread starter Eve
- Start date
Gonna have to agree. If the pokemon itself is there, we should assume all formes of the family would be present as well, unless proven otherwise
Yay Mamoswine is back! It could be great in this meta, as a lot of the stuff it didn't like it in XY / SM is gone. No Tapu Bulu weakening its Earthquakes, no Tapu Lele negating Ice Shard, no Skarmory, no Celesteela, no Mega Lopunny, no Greninja, no Keldeo, no Kartana... It obviously must compete with Weavile as it always has, but compared to the weasel it trades its Speed for more power, more bulk and no Stealth Rock weakness. Its STABs are almost unresisted, and with Dynamax it can use Max Knuckle to boost its Attack to terrifying levels. It can also dismantle the FerroPex core.
252 Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Max Knuckle (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Rotom-Wash: 136-161 (44.7 - 52.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 252 Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Max Knuckle (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Rotom-Wash: 204-240 (67.1 - 78.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Max Frost (130 BP) vs. 252 HP / 24 Def Ferrothorn: 214-253 (60.7 - 71.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after hail damage
252 Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Max Tremor (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 320-377 (105.2 - 124%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Max Knuckle (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Rotom-Wash: 136-161 (44.7 - 52.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 252 Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Max Knuckle (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Rotom-Wash: 204-240 (67.1 - 78.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Max Frost (130 BP) vs. 252 HP / 24 Def Ferrothorn: 214-253 (60.7 - 71.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after hail damage
252 Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Max Tremor (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 320-377 (105.2 - 124%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Yung Dramps
awesome gaming
If Alolan forms with their base states in the game are transferrable, that could be a huge meta shift that we don't have solid enough confirmation to go through with. Now why do I say this?
This thing. If it really is in, then Aurora Veil could be a huge game changer in an already quite offensive metagame. It's very risky to go through with adding Alolan Ninetales without knowing for certain.
And now for something we do know: A Seedot cry was heard in the new gameplay. Ludicolo is already in. Pairs have been filled up recently. Yeah, I think it's pretty safe to add Shiftry to the meta.
This thing. If it really is in, then Aurora Veil could be a huge game changer in an already quite offensive metagame. It's very risky to go through with adding Alolan Ninetales without knowing for certain.
And now for something we do know: A Seedot cry was heard in the new gameplay. Ludicolo is already in. Pairs have been filled up recently. Yeah, I think it's pretty safe to add Shiftry to the meta.
It might be safer to just assume the opposite and take out regular Linoone, Weezing, and Rapidash. We aren't losing much.
Just stumbled across this, have to agree that we should be more conservative with additions and only add things that are effectively confirmed.
Yung Dramps
awesome gaming
https://pokepast.es/0bde3cb4815c7de8
Have another sample team! This one's based around the legend himself Adamant Life Orb Mamoswine
Also, quick VR noms: Hitmontop to C- or shadow realm and either B+ or A- for Doublade. The former is just outclassed by Conkeldurr and even Machamp in a meta where hazard removal gets more and more common and strong, and the latter is probably the best Eviolite user in the game unless Chansey or P2 gets confirmed, the typing and stats are killer and it totally fucks over bulky offense while simultaneously being one of its best assets
Have another sample team! This one's based around the legend himself Adamant Life Orb Mamoswine
Also, quick VR noms: Hitmontop to C- or shadow realm and either B+ or A- for Doublade. The former is just outclassed by Conkeldurr and even Machamp in a meta where hazard removal gets more and more common and strong, and the latter is probably the best Eviolite user in the game unless Chansey or P2 gets confirmed, the typing and stats are killer and it totally fucks over bulky offense while simultaneously being one of its best assets
They are talking about the current speculation meta
Yung Dramps
awesome gaming
Time for another proper VR nom post. Feel free to give your thoughts. whatever they may be.
Additions
UR ---> A-
The best Eviolite user in the game, easily. Steel/Ghost is such a good typing, and its physical bulk and power are amazing: Adamant Life Orb Mamoswine's Earthquake doesn't even do 75% damage consistently to it, for instance. However, the reason why I am not nomming it higher is because of its mediocre special bulk, and while it hasn't been exploited much yet there's a bit of new toy syndrome that could be going on.
UR ---> B+
Just as good of a Trick Room special attacker as Vikavolt, maybe even better. Basically everything I said from my intial thoughts post still applies to it: Godly coverage, Berserk abuse, just generally a very dangerous Pokemon with few reliable switch-ins.
UR ---> B
I'm not so sure about this guy. It seems godlike on paper, and by all means it should be in this Trick Room-partial meta, but those favorable traits just don't seem to translate in practice as much as you'd think. There are some things that just outright wall it, most notably Corviknight, Toxapex and Doublade. Still a very strong TR mon in the right hands but there's definitely some crowding for its role even on that playstyle and sometimes it can have difficulty getting going.
UR ---> B-
It has access to the almighty Sticky Web, and Life Orb sets even without Quiver Dance set up are surprisingly effective. Looks surprisingly promising, even if very flawed in terms of coverage and bulk.
UR ---> C-/C
It competes a ton with Ribombee and Galvantula as a lead and generally attacker, but it has some very notable niches including both varieties of Spikes and Final Gambit. It can't really work as a dedicated attacker unlike the other two, but those niches are solid enough in conjunction with its blazing speed to give it some worth as a lead.
UR ---> Shadow Realm
Even after some testing, it just doesn't seem very good. Its role seems interesting in theory but really kinda doesn't work in practice. Just use Bronzong tbh.
Rises
A- ---> A/A+
Scarf is one of the most powerful nukes in this meta only rivaled by the likes of Weavile and Gengar, sometimes it only takes one Max Haunt to snowball entire teams.
B ---> B+
Heliolisk is unique for being able to function on both Rain and Sun, providing unique benefits for each. Rain gets a Thunder spammer with Dry Skin, Sun gets a glass cannon that gives Charizard a run for his money while covering Flying types. It should go up a rank with all the other Weather staples.
C- ---> C+/B-
Jellicent is the superior TR setter over Dusclops and should be recognized as such, but such an obliteration with facts and logic may upset lord Ezaphis so I'll settle for this. Jellicent has literally everything else over Clops aside from pure bulk: Better support, more comprehensive defensive utility that checks a wider variety of Pokemon, better speed for outside of TR and of course actual reliable recovery. C- is vastly underrating it.
Drops
A+ ---> A
It just isn't what it used to be. Usage is normally a pretty crappy argument for raising/dropping something imo especially considering our very small playerbase, but the drop-off in usage for this guy in particular is so severe as to probably be a sign. The Mold Breaker Swords Dance sets that were once so terrifying just don't cut it anymore, and the reason for this is simple: Unlike so many other Dynamax-based cleaners like Gengar, Gyarados, Jolteon, Chandelure, Kommo-o, Weavile and even Braviary that can function perfectly fine outside of those sacred 3 turns, Hawlucha lives and dies by Dynamax. I'm not saying its absolutely awful outside of it, but when it does wear off there's a noticeable drop-off in power that the aforementioned examples don't experience nearly as much of. I've heard discussion about Seed-based sets that abuse things like Max Zen Headbutt or Max Thunder Punch, but these sets have and continue to show generally poor showings.
C+ ---> C-/Shadow Realm
Funny story: One time I was teambuilding and wanted a Weavile check for my last slot. I chose Intimidate Hitmontop and manufactured a jank EV spread for checking that and other threats. Throughout this process, I was thinking "Why haven't I used this more often?". Then when I was done, I thought a bit harder and asked another question to myself: "Wait, why should I use this guy over Conkeldurr?" And that's the gist of it: A good amount of utility, none that is particular useful in OU. See ya in Doubles, Top Cowboy.
Additions
UR ---> A-
The best Eviolite user in the game, easily. Steel/Ghost is such a good typing, and its physical bulk and power are amazing: Adamant Life Orb Mamoswine's Earthquake doesn't even do 75% damage consistently to it, for instance. However, the reason why I am not nomming it higher is because of its mediocre special bulk, and while it hasn't been exploited much yet there's a bit of new toy syndrome that could be going on.
UR ---> B+
Just as good of a Trick Room special attacker as Vikavolt, maybe even better. Basically everything I said from my intial thoughts post still applies to it: Godly coverage, Berserk abuse, just generally a very dangerous Pokemon with few reliable switch-ins.
UR ---> B
I'm not so sure about this guy. It seems godlike on paper, and by all means it should be in this Trick Room-partial meta, but those favorable traits just don't seem to translate in practice as much as you'd think. There are some things that just outright wall it, most notably Corviknight, Toxapex and Doublade. Still a very strong TR mon in the right hands but there's definitely some crowding for its role even on that playstyle and sometimes it can have difficulty getting going.
UR ---> B-
It has access to the almighty Sticky Web, and Life Orb sets even without Quiver Dance set up are surprisingly effective. Looks surprisingly promising, even if very flawed in terms of coverage and bulk.
UR ---> C-/C
It competes a ton with Ribombee and Galvantula as a lead and generally attacker, but it has some very notable niches including both varieties of Spikes and Final Gambit. It can't really work as a dedicated attacker unlike the other two, but those niches are solid enough in conjunction with its blazing speed to give it some worth as a lead.
UR ---> Shadow Realm
Even after some testing, it just doesn't seem very good. Its role seems interesting in theory but really kinda doesn't work in practice. Just use Bronzong tbh.
Rises
A- ---> A/A+
Scarf is one of the most powerful nukes in this meta only rivaled by the likes of Weavile and Gengar, sometimes it only takes one Max Haunt to snowball entire teams.
B ---> B+
Heliolisk is unique for being able to function on both Rain and Sun, providing unique benefits for each. Rain gets a Thunder spammer with Dry Skin, Sun gets a glass cannon that gives Charizard a run for his money while covering Flying types. It should go up a rank with all the other Weather staples.
C- ---> C+/B-
Jellicent is the superior TR setter over Dusclops and should be recognized as such, but such an obliteration with facts and logic may upset lord Ezaphis so I'll settle for this. Jellicent has literally everything else over Clops aside from pure bulk: Better support, more comprehensive defensive utility that checks a wider variety of Pokemon, better speed for outside of TR and of course actual reliable recovery. C- is vastly underrating it.
Drops
A+ ---> A
It just isn't what it used to be. Usage is normally a pretty crappy argument for raising/dropping something imo especially considering our very small playerbase, but the drop-off in usage for this guy in particular is so severe as to probably be a sign. The Mold Breaker Swords Dance sets that were once so terrifying just don't cut it anymore, and the reason for this is simple: Unlike so many other Dynamax-based cleaners like Gengar, Gyarados, Jolteon, Chandelure, Kommo-o, Weavile and even Braviary that can function perfectly fine outside of those sacred 3 turns, Hawlucha lives and dies by Dynamax. I'm not saying its absolutely awful outside of it, but when it does wear off there's a noticeable drop-off in power that the aforementioned examples don't experience nearly as much of. I've heard discussion about Seed-based sets that abuse things like Max Zen Headbutt or Max Thunder Punch, but these sets have and continue to show generally poor showings.
C+ ---> C-/Shadow Realm
Funny story: One time I was teambuilding and wanted a Weavile check for my last slot. I chose Intimidate Hitmontop and manufactured a jank EV spread for checking that and other threats. Throughout this process, I was thinking "Why haven't I used this more often?". Then when I was done, I thought a bit harder and asked another question to myself: "Wait, why should I use this guy over Conkeldurr?" And that's the gist of it: A good amount of utility, none that is particular useful in OU. See ya in Doubles, Top Cowboy.
Might be predictable but HARD disagree on Jellicent being better- the bulk is entirely the most important thing for that setter slot, similarly to how Cresselia is integral to USUM Trick Room. Speed on a TR setter is also fairly irrelevant if they can just take any hit, which Dusclops can (and Jellicent can't while still outsped by most offensive threats), and lower Speed also allows Dusclops to guarantee a Memento or Wisp after setting Trick Room against practically everything. Otherwise I don't have many issues with this post :]
MELMETAL will be freed on the server ASAP, and I have a hunch its ranking won't need much debate lol
Yung Dramps
awesome gaming
Quick update! Due to its potential to radically alter the OU landscape and the uncertainty over whether its truly in or not, I have decided to add a separate viability ranking for the metagame with Melmetal included!
Yung Dramps
awesome gaming
https://pokepast.es/054feeac32426e2e
Another shift, another sample team for people to experiment with! This one is basically my TR team but with CB Melmetal replacing Escavalier.
Another shift, another sample team for people to experiment with! This one is basically my TR team but with CB Melmetal replacing Escavalier.
252+ Atk Choice Band Iron Fist Melmetal Double Iron Bash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mew: 298-352 (73.7 - 87.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
-1 252+ Atk Choice Band Iron Fist Melmetal Double Iron Bash vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gyarados: 168-198 (50.7 - 59.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Iron Fist Melmetal Double Iron Bash vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Chandelure: 225-266 (86.2 - 101.9%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Iron Fist Melmetal Double Iron Bash vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Corviknight: 211-249 (51.7 - 61%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
-1 252+ Atk Choice Band Iron Fist Melmetal Double Iron Bash vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gyarados: 168-198 (50.7 - 59.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Iron Fist Melmetal Double Iron Bash vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Chandelure: 225-266 (86.2 - 101.9%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Iron Fist Melmetal Double Iron Bash vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Corviknight: 211-249 (51.7 - 61%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
While Melmetal does indeed hit very hard, Steel isn’t the best offensive typing, it’s very slow, has poor special bulk and no reliable recovery. It seems like a bit like USUM Mega Mawile ATM: an incredible powerful Pokemon let down by low Speed and poor offensive typing.
Last edited:
Shuckle, Octillery, Shiftry, Torkoal, Drapion, Musharna, Scrafty, Bisharp and Pyukumuku are all confirmed via a new advert! Some pretty big ones there, especially Pyukumuku which can stall out a lot of the threatening Dynamax sweepers extremely effectively.
Last edited:
Unless smogon rethinks about reallowing empty batonpass pivots, im afraid poor pyuku might be a bit stuck.
That being said, really glad Bisharp and Drapion are back.
That being said, really glad Bisharp and Drapion are back.
Pyukumuku is viable in every single USUM tier (and has had calls for bans in UU) without access to Baton Pass, it'll be fine
Shuckle could be a nice choice, as it's one of the few Sticky Web setters. Though with Defog being so common I don't think it'll be that good.
Octillery has always been shit. Poor speed, mediocre bulk, only above average attacking stats. Hoping it gets an evolution (Farfetch'd has given me hope).
Shiftry could be a decent sweeper in the lower tiers, unlike Ludicolo it can't set up its own weather with Dynamax.
Glad Torkoal is back, gives sun teams a much better weather setter.
Musharna is discount Reuniclus.
Scrafty could be decent, Moxie + Max Knuckle will be incredibly powerful.
Pyukumuku might be good on stall, but with every Electric and Grass type able to summon their respective terrains and attack in one turn I don't see it being that effective (it's ZU by usage atm). Clefable is a better Unaware user IMO.
Octillery has always been shit. Poor speed, mediocre bulk, only above average attacking stats. Hoping it gets an evolution (Farfetch'd has given me hope).
Shiftry could be a decent sweeper in the lower tiers, unlike Ludicolo it can't set up its own weather with Dynamax.
Glad Torkoal is back, gives sun teams a much better weather setter.
Musharna is discount Reuniclus.
Scrafty could be decent, Moxie + Max Knuckle will be incredibly powerful.
Pyukumuku might be good on stall, but with every Electric and Grass type able to summon their respective terrains and attack in one turn I don't see it being that effective (it's ZU by usage atm). Clefable is a better Unaware user IMO.
Hitmontop is no longer my best friend, my new friend is Scrafty. Anyway, Scrafty provides more utility and coverage moves when compared to Hitmontop. Unfortunately, it lacks Close Combat or Superpower, with High Jump Kick considered to be risky with how Protect common is in Doubles.
Scrafty @ Assault Vest
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 252 HP / 180 Atk / 68 Def / 8 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Fake Out
- Knock Off
- Drain Punch/ Low Kick
- Super Fang/ Ice Punch/ Dragon Tail
Scrafty @ Figy Berry
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 252 HP / 60 Atk / 20 Def / 176 SpD
Careful Nature
- Fake Out
- Knock Off
- Drain Punch/ Low Kick
- Taunt/ Roar/ Dragon Tail
Alternatively, you may choose to have 100 Speed Eevee to outspeed Hitmontop to Fake Out it first. High Jump Kick can be used for Pokemon that doesn't always run Protect such as Chansey.
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 252 HP / 180 Atk / 68 Def / 8 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Fake Out
- Knock Off
- Drain Punch/ Low Kick
- Super Fang/ Ice Punch/ Dragon Tail
Scrafty @ Figy Berry
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 252 HP / 60 Atk / 20 Def / 176 SpD
Careful Nature
- Fake Out
- Knock Off
- Drain Punch/ Low Kick
- Taunt/ Roar/ Dragon Tail
Alternatively, you may choose to have 100 Speed Eevee to outspeed Hitmontop to Fake Out it first. High Jump Kick can be used for Pokemon that doesn't always run Protect such as Chansey.
A tortoise is a man's best friend, never trust a fox.
Torkoal @ Wiki Berry
Ability: Drought
EVs: 248 HP / 88 SpA / 172 SpD
Quiet Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Heat Wave
- Solar Beam
- Earth Power/ Stealth Rock
- Protect
Not sure if Stealth Rock would be common in SwSh Doubles. If Incineroar is in the Galar dex, chances are it will be used. Otherwise, stick with Earth Power.
Torkoal @ Assault Vest
Ability: Drought
EVs: 248 HP / 252 SpA / 8 SpD
Quiet Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Heat Wave
- Solar Beam
- Eruption/ Sludge Bomb
- Earth Power
Heat Rock could be used for extending harsh sunlight for 3 more turns, but the recovery from berry might be more important.
Ability: Drought
EVs: 248 HP / 88 SpA / 172 SpD
Quiet Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Heat Wave
- Solar Beam
- Earth Power/ Stealth Rock
- Protect
Not sure if Stealth Rock would be common in SwSh Doubles. If Incineroar is in the Galar dex, chances are it will be used. Otherwise, stick with Earth Power.
Torkoal @ Assault Vest
Ability: Drought
EVs: 248 HP / 252 SpA / 8 SpD
Quiet Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Heat Wave
- Solar Beam
- Eruption/ Sludge Bomb
- Earth Power
Heat Rock could be used for extending harsh sunlight for 3 more turns, but the recovery from berry might be more important.
Oh great, I have to deal with Guard Split Blissey gimmick again. Otherwise, it isn't that much noteworthy in Doubles.
EDIT:
It's hard to predict how well Bisharp will fare. On the one hand, it has Defiant to keep Intimidate in check, but it doesn't beat any of the Intimidate users. Bisharp didn't see much usage in Gen 7 DOU even after the decline of Psyspam, Sucker Punch nerfed to 70 Power didn't help matters either. However, with no Tapu Lele at sight, Bisharp would have an easier time defeating Psychic-type and slower Fairy-type.
Bisharp @ Life Orb/ Black Glasses
Ability: Defiant
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant/ Jolly Nature
- Knock Off
- Sucker Punch
- Iron Head
- Protect
Bisharp has mediocre bulk, so it's better off maxing its Attack and Speed like always. Bisharp greatly benefited from Tailwind. Low Kick can be used to 2HKO Scarfty, but fitting it is hard and Scrafty would KO it in return. Snorlax and Melmetal would have taken more damage from Low Kick, that is, if it can stomach their High Horsepower and Superpower (respectively).
Ability: Defiant
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant/ Jolly Nature
- Knock Off
- Sucker Punch
- Iron Head
- Protect
Bisharp has mediocre bulk, so it's better off maxing its Attack and Speed like always. Bisharp greatly benefited from Tailwind. Low Kick can be used to 2HKO Scarfty, but fitting it is hard and Scrafty would KO it in return. Snorlax and Melmetal would have taken more damage from Low Kick, that is, if it can stomach their High Horsepower and Superpower (respectively).
Last edited:
Reminder that you need to set up your ddance or bulk ups before you dynamax, which should be more than enough time for a fairy type attacker to give them a hug and burst scrafty into flames.
Bisharp is probably really annoyed every psychic type attack can be turned into a psychic terrain... something to look out for.
Bisharp is probably really annoyed every psychic type attack can be turned into a psychic terrain... something to look out for.