Metagame Sword and Shield CAP Metagame Discussion


Ok, one thing I don’t understand is how much Kitsunoh is slept on.
It’s Steel/Ghost typing is amazing to say the least. Shared with Aegislash, which is amazing itself.
What sets Kitsunoh apart from Aegislash is its speed and movepool.
Having 110 Base speed is amazing in such a slow Metagame, and Kitsunoh has so much coverage to beat serious threats.
Iron Fist Meteor Mash for Clefable, Kyurem, Jumbao, and Terrakion.
Close Combat for Equilibra, Ferrothorn, Excadrill, Bisharp, and Colossoil.
Play Rough for Tomohawk, Dragapult, Hydreigon, Arghonaut, Pajantom, and Conkeldurr.
Shadow Strike Aegislash itself, other Ghost types, psychic types, and as an easy way to pressure bulkier walls like Toxapex that otherwise would stop it.
Oh, then it also has Earthquake, Bullet Punch, Shadow Sneak, Thunder Punch, and Ice Punch too.
That’s then just for mostly offensive moves.
Kitsunoh has access to;
Defog, Fake Out, Endeavor, Knock Off, Memento, Perish Song, Taunt, Trick, U-Turn, and Will-o-wisp.
Kitsunoh also was indirectly buffed by the removal of Pursuit, which makes it an even better speedy pivot than before. And as a pivot, it has an excellent defensive typing to let it switch in frequently.

Also thanks to it’s decent bulk with that amazing typing, as well as it’s pretty good power, it’s not too common for a Pokemon naturally faster in on Kitsunoh.
In total, that’s about 26 Pokemon, including shitmons like Ninjask, that can outspeed Kitsunoh without a boost, and most of the viable Pokemon that outspeed it don’t really want to switch into it either.
 

Ok, one thing I don’t understand is how much Kitsunoh is slept on.
It’s Steel/Ghost typing is amazing to say the least. Shared with Aegislash, which is amazing itself.
What sets Kitsunoh apart from Aegislash is its speed and movepool.
Having 110 Base speed is amazing in such a slow Metagame, and Kitsunoh has so much coverage to beat serious threats.
Iron Fist Meteor Mash for Clefable, Kyurem, Jumbao, and Terrakion.
Close Combat for Equilibra, Ferrothorn, Excadrill, Bisharp, and Colossoil.
Play Rough for Tomohawk, Dragapult, Hydreigon, Arghonaut, Pajantom, and Conkeldurr.
Shadow Strike Aegislash itself, other Ghost types, psychic types, and as an easy way to pressure bulkier walls like Toxapex that otherwise would stop it.
Oh, then it also has Earthquake, Bullet Punch, Shadow Sneak, Thunder Punch, and Ice Punch too.
That’s then just for mostly offensive moves.
Kitsunoh has access to;
Defog, Fake Out, Endeavor, Knock Off, Memento, Perish Song, Taunt, Trick, U-Turn, and Will-o-wisp.
Kitsunoh also was indirectly buffed by the removal of Pursuit, which makes it an even better speedy pivot than before. And as a pivot, it has an excellent defensive typing to let it switch in frequently.

Also thanks to it’s decent bulk with that amazing typing, as well as it’s pretty good power, it’s not too common for a Pokemon naturally faster in on Kitsunoh.
In total, that’s about 26 Pokemon, including shitmons like Ninjask, that can outspeed Kitsunoh without a boost, and most of the viable Pokemon that outspeed it don’t really want to switch into it either.
This is nice and all but very misguided; Kitsunoh's speed tier and movepool are the only things that give it any sort of niche, no one is debating that. The issue with Kitsunoh is that it is incredibly weak and frail, unlike Aeglisash (which it fills a completely different role too so shouldn't be compared to). Kyurem is never staying in on or switching into Kitsunoh, and neither are Jumbao or Terrakion. Clefable can easily scout whatever you choose to lock into with protect and go to the appropriate check - which is pretty easy to do considering Toxapex, Tomohawk, and a Ghost resist are pretty commonplace and do this easily depending on which move it locks into.

With regard to some of the bulkier Pokemon mentioned - Kitsunoh doesnt do enough to beat them outright almost ever

252 Atk Kitsunoh Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 80 Def Equilibra: 212-250 (51.9 - 61.2%) -- 95.7% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Kitsunoh Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 92 Def Tomohawk: 166-196 (40 - 47.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
-1 252 Atk Kitsunoh Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 92 Def Tomohawk: 112-132 (27 - 31.8%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
252 Atk Kitsunoh Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Arghonaut: 124-148 (29.9 - 35.7%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

All of these Pokemon actually beat Kitsunoh even when switching in, with the exception of Equilibra which cannot switch into a CC but will beat it if given a free switch in thanks to Earth Power. Obviously Bisharp cannot switch into CC lol but it still has to play Sucker Punch games vs Colossoil and Bisharp. This also doesn't address the fact that Kitsunoh can only have 4 moves, 2 of which are pretty much dedicated to Shadow Strike and U-turn, on top of that it needs Meteor Mash really due to how common Clefable, Kyurem etc are. This gives it typically 1 free attack slot to run additional coverage or utility, and is typically reserved for Trick so that it can cripple the aforementioned walls that it cannot break. It simply does not have the moveslots to run all of the coverage it could want, and even if it did, it doesnt really help it overcome the fact that it is so weak.

:ss/Kitsunoh:
Kitsunoh @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Limber
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Meteor Mash
- Shadow Strike
- U-turn
- Trick

I actually think the best Kitsunoh can do in the current meta is something along these lines that looks to abuse Clefable, however; Moonblast + Rocks still does a decent chunk which means Kitsunoh cannot switch in too many times this way, and there are much better Clefable abusers in the metagame like Excadrill, Aegislash, or the big one, Equilibra. On top of this, whilst Kitsunoh is indeed very fast, many teams dont typically need this level of speed control due to the fact that, as you said, the meta has slowed down significantly, to the point where this doesn't really hit anything too important outside of Scarf Dreigon, which has better counterplay. Whilst the Steel- and - Ghost typing is pretty solid, Kitsunoh doesnt really have sufficient bulk to make it work defensively as attacks such a Clefable and Jumbao's Moonblasts, Kyurem's Ice Beam, and Astrolotl's Dragon Claw etc still chunk it out. Overall all of these flaws are what make Kitsunoh not very highly used.

Just so that this isn't a Kitsunoh bashing post, I've been having a lot of fun with Astrolotl! Its a really customizable Pokemon and is just really fun to play with in general. The set I have been using the most is this:


Astrolotl @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Regenerator
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 HP / 144 SpD / 112 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Heal Bell / Toxic / Idk literally anything you want
- Spikes
- Knock Off
- Fire Lash

The speed is for creeping Bao here but I've been toying with creeping Smoko and Hydreigon too. If you opt to run Dragon Claw I definitely think the extra speed is worth it but I have found that Heal Bell is often really valuable on the standard Balance archetype as removing burns from Libra and Toxapex and Toxics from Tomohawk greatly improves their longevity. Its also much harder to deal with Equilibra if Astrolotl is able to set spikes freely, which it often can because it beats most removal options handily.

One other set that I have seen do work is the "anti-pex" set with Fire Spin, Fire Lash, and Explosion and I think that looks really interesting and need to try it out for sure! I'm very interested in seeing what everyone thinks of Astrolotl in the meta; what sort of teams it fits on, what it partners well with, and what sets you guys are finding success with!
 
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Ok, so I was trying to theorymon suicide lead Astro to work on the basis it gets everything lead Mew does bar Rocks and is faster. But I was constantly having trouble finding a way to deal with spinners like lead Excadrill and Equilibra (there's precious little space for Fire STAB). Exca consistently beats Astro with Spin-->EQ and even though Libra is slower after a spin, it takes a moveslot up just to 2HKO it or phaze it and getting hazards up against it is impossible otherwise.
Then I remembered something someone mentioned in OU about Terrakion using Bulldoze to slow and beat lead Exca. Astro gets Bulldoze! Job done right?
Well... Not exactly. It requires max Attack and an Adamant nature to guarantee the 2HKO, which makes you slower than other Astros, among other things, and means no bulk too. Having Bulldoze means choosing between Taunt, Magic Coat or another utility move. And just to cap it off, you then cannot touch Libra. You could replace Explosion with Flare Blitz and go for minimum bulk to KO yourself that way... Or you can take inspiration from a HO style last gen.
Landorus-Therian (M) @ Focus Sash
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Explosion
- Earthquake
- Rock Tomb
Greninja @ Focus Sash
Ability: Protean
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Spikes
- Taunt
- Toxic Spikes
- Ice Beam
Remember these two? In particular, both of them together. They both excel at beating leads the other has issues with, and together throw down a load of hazards for 4 sweepers of choice to abuse.
Smokomodo @ Focus Sash
Ability: Blaze
EVs: 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
IVs: 0 HP / 0 Def / 0 SpD
- Taunt/Defog
- Stealth Rock
- Bulldoze
- Flare Blitz
Astrolotl @ Focus Sash
Ability: Regenerator/Magician
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Explosion/Healing Wish
- Spikes
- Taunt/Magic Coat
- Thunder Wave/Knock Off/Magic Coat/other utility/STAB
And here is CAP's version! I know I mentioned Terrakion, but it lacks a way to KO itself and gain momentum, though it gets Taunt, Rocks and Bulldoze still (plus CC to pressure Libra). Smoko trades some speed for access to Flare Blitz to KO itself after being hit to its Sash. Minimised defences ensure it is as likely as possible to be hit to its Sash before it KOs itself. Bulldoze already 2HKOs Drill, so Blaze is the ability of choice to give the strongest Flare Blitz possible. Taunt prevents slower hazard setters setting Rocks with good prediction, Defog is an option that clears up hazards against leads that just sac themselves to do so (e.g. Drill getting up Rocks before dying).
Astro benefits from Smoko beating Drill and Libra, which opens up its moveset and allows it to run a considerable amount of bulk. Regenerator is the #1 ability choice in case Astro takes chip and is forced out, restoring its Sash if hazards are clear. Magician is an option to steal another item after consuming its Sash, but I don't think it works with Explosion, which is Astro's most used attack on this set.
The biggest downside to this pair is Dragon Dance Dragapult, which does a handy job of just OHKOing both of them with Dragon Darts, and even uses them as setup fodder unless they have a move to punish it (which is one of the reasons I like Thunder Wave in the last slot on Astro). Astro not having Toxic Spikes also makes it less versatile than Greninja.
So thoughts and suggestions?
 
DLC thoughts


Magearna

Magearna is looking like a big threat even without Z-moves

It's sweeping sets are still powerful as CM can beat Levitate Equilibra with Aura Spere and Pex with T-bolt However being walled by Bulletproof Equilibra not ideal

Agility sets don't look as good because Astrolotl is great on offense and walls Agility Magearna and even if Astrolotl is damaged +2 Magearna is slower then Zeraora and Dragapult

Specs look pretty good as tricking a Choice Spec on Chansey can be game changing and Fleur Cannon is a Powerful Spamable Stab move

The AV set looks like a good pivot/counter to Dragapult,Stratagem,Jumbao,Specs Aurumoth,Alakazam,Tomohawk and Hydreigon

Overall Magearna will most likely be A to A+ tier

1593564763630.jpeg
Urshifu Single Strike thoughts

Band is uhh...

-1 252+ Atk Choice Band Urshifu Zen Headbutt vs. 252 HP / 94 Def Tomohawk: 190-224 (45.8 - 54.1%) -- 96.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Choice Band Urshifu Wicked Blow vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex on a critical hit: 172-204 (56.5 - 67.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery

252+ Atk Choice Band Urshifu Poison Jab vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Togekiss: 300-354 (96.4 - 113.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

252+ Atk Choice Band Urshifu Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 28 Def Magearna: 280-330 (77.1 - 90.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Kind of good It's only check that I know of are max defense tomo

-1 252+ Atk Choice Band Urshifu Zen Headbutt vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tomohawk: 148-176 (35.7 - 42.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

so Band is kind of broken it as other sets like Scarf,Bulk up and LO taunt but band is so good that that's what 70% of Urshifu are going to be (20% will be scarf)

I think Urshifu Single Strike will be at the top of A+ teir with the only reason it is not S is because of how good tomo is

Urshifu Rapid Strike thoughts coming soon
 
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quziel

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Hey, so had a discussion on discord which made it apparent that this resource may be helpful.

Formula for Building Bulky Offense

I doubt I'm the first to put this into words, but if you look at most successful bulky offense teams they're structured somewhat like this.

  1. Wallbreaker that loses to but forces damage onto wall(s) X (This can be a lure, or just crazy strong)
  2. Sweeper or Cleaner that can win game if wall(s) X are dead or at 30% HP
  3. Pokemon that can switch into and take advantage of wall(s) X (either wallbreaker, hazard setter, or pivot, see Ferrothorn, Slowking, Plasmanta)
  4. Fill out defensive holes
Let me explain the rationale behind this. A defensive team (Balance/Stall) is at its happiest when it has 6 walls that independently wall all of your 6 pokemon because it can just chain switch between them and abuse free attacks to wear you down. To look back, consider the core of Spikes Skarmory + CM Blissey vs Sub SD Heracross + CM Raikou in ADV era. The Heracross + Raikou player has no real way to win vs the Skarmbliss user because even though Heracross can switch into Blissey, the SkarmBliss user can simply go into Skarm and spike up, a process which the Offense player will eventually lose. However, lets consider a different core; Curse Selfdestruct Snorlax + DD Salamence. The Curse Selfdestruct Snorlax can set up curses and force in Skarmory, and then explode to OHKO it, at which point the DD Salamence can sweep and win game. Unlike the previous core, the opponent is forced to wall two of your pokemon with one of its walls, and once that wall is dead, the game is over. To connect to the earlier list, this core then needs something that can switch into Skarmory in case its played offensively and is doubled in when Lax comes in; Magneton does this well.

Lets now apply this formula to CAP, and the Astrolotl release game, which I believe demonstrated this building style pretty well. I was facing Jho with the team of Boom Astrolotl / SubCM Primarina / Equilibra / Tomohawk / Mrise Plasmanta / Hydreigon. In this case the team was designed such that we have Boom Astrolotl in order to force in, and explode on Toxapex, Primarina to sweep once Toxapex is dead, and Plasmanta to switch into and apply pressure on Toxapex. This is offensive synergy in action; without Astrolotl Primarina would have been inable to get anything of note really done in that game beyond burning Pex. While both of the two lose to Pex, both of the two also force damage onto Pex, and the choice of Boom is just flashy; Spikes and Knock Off also force permanent damage onto Toxapex. Plasmanta is the final element to this core, and is another reason as to why it works; as both of the two lose to Pex you need insurance in case your opponent makes an aggressive double, and having a mon that can come in on your wall of choice and easily force it out is key to Bulky Offense as a whole. Secondary synergy includes Plasmanta and Primarina to come in on Tomohawk, which is another major threat to Astrolotl. Defensive synergy is then filled out with the classic EquiTomo + Water type core, and scarf hydreigon which is literally always a good choice in CAP.

Examples of some cores that demonstrate this in action:

1594147487212.png
1594147511822.png

Urshifu + Slowking:
Wall Targeted: Tomohawk
Method of forcing damage: Urshifu uses Wicked Blow to force in Tomohawk, Future Sight from Slowking can then OHKO Tomohawk, Slowking switches into Tomohawk (2 mon compression of the usual 3 mon core).
Method of recovery: Use Slowking to switch into Tomohawk and force it out with the threat of a teleport or future sight.


Heat Wave Tomohawk + CM IDef Magearna + AV Slowbro
Wall Targeted: Equilibra
Method of forcing damage: Use Tomohawk to force in libra, stay in and heat wave.
Method of recovery: Use AV slowbro to switch into and force out libra.

I've only provided 2 cores because explicitly doing this stuff is kinda annoying. Hope this helps with building, and ye, I did sorta leave the last step (aka the hardest part) as a single step because this is all about offensive synergy, not defensive synergy.
 
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quziel

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Yo, so we just got done with week 1 of CAPPL and I have some thoughts on the metagame as I've experienced it from playing way too many test matches.

:urshifu: This mon is honestly a tad ridic. Its trivially easy to pair it with Slowking (this mon comes in on its main answer, Tomohawk) or Equilibra (comes in on everything else) and legit make progress every time. Slowking can even remove all of the risk by clicking Teleport. There's a reason that legit like every team is either offense, or Tomo/Mandi kinda builds, and support from legit just like Toxic Astrolotl, or the aforementioned delayed damage mons means that its often quite trivial to bypass these answers.

:equilibra: Ye, this got nerfed last gen, but its still got stupid bulk, 2 abilities that you have to guess right on, and thanks to DD, it guarantees progress in every game. I don't know exactly what aspect makes it feel over the top for me, probably just the raw bulk, but this will force progress in every single game it is in.

:astrolotl: This mon again will make progress in essentially any game it is in because it has the bulk to stay in on most of its answers once, regen to recover from that, and the choice of Toxic, Fire Lash, Spikes, or Knock Off (there are a lot of options that still haven't been explored that do fun stuff, eg Fire Spin + Explosion to remove anything) to cripple a ton of its answers. Tomohawk is a great check to Urshifu until Astrolotl borderline forces a Toxic onto it and escapes unpunished, Slowking can answer Equilibra until it loses its Heavy Duty Boots, Ferrothorn answers Krillowatt until its facing 3 layers of spikes. This mon just has a wealth of ways to grind down almost any defensive core in the game, which is sorta exasperating a few of the other issues. Ironically its too good at its concept, but I place blame mostly with Toxic forcing damage onto a load of its checks for teammates.

:clefable: This mon is potentially not broken anymore with the meta changes, though I'd wait a bit before even considering reintroducing it.

:cawmodore: this mon is still very dumb in terms of "you either have an answer or lose", and is a lot as to why people can have issues getting into the meta. That is, if you don't have a mon with > 118 speed that can deal 75% to cawm and take a +6 Bullet Punch you lose the game (barring like, circle throw argh, or hoping cawm has the wrong coverage).

I'd have replays, but we've got one week so far, and my memory for games is bad.
 
:clefable: This mon is potentially not broken anymore with the meta changes, though I'd wait a bit before even considering reintroducing it.
Totally agree with this. I wasn't here for the ban but personally didn't agree with it especially with DLC coming out about a week after. I think unbanning Clef is something the CAP council and CAP community should consider unbanning.
 
Totally agree with this. I wasn't here for the ban but personally didn't agree with it especially with DLC coming out about a week after. I think unbanning Clef is something the CAP council and CAP community should consider unbanning.
On that note, I can see a suspect test coming on afterward.
 

As quziel said, Astrolotl is too good at its concept.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8cap-1153030098-1qxfr2q1fs7i16j5jxcoron5ah6y3owpw
In this game, for example, it
- Gets up spikes 3 times
- Poisons Tomohawk
- Knocks off Krilowatt
- Knocks off Dragapult
- Poisons and Knocks off Rotom-Heat
=> It came in and switched out 7 times out of 48 turns on Rotom-Heat, Tomohawk and Scizor (healing approximately 220% damage).

This isn't even an extreme example, I've seen many games where Astrolotl just stuck around by switching in and out making progress for the entierity of the game. Regenerator + Heavy-duty Boots along with its decent bulk allow it to come in safely on most defensive pokémon of the metagame and threaten them with so many different things that it's remotely impossible to predict. It doesn't really care about being poisoned because it usually doesn't stay in for too long.

Astrolotl is one of the best switch-ins to its main checks. The Astrolotl checks right now are : Toxapex, Mandibuzz, Tomohawk and Slowbro. It loves facing them and coming against them. They don't like at all staying on it, because it just sets up spikes on their face, knocks them off and poisons them all at once. They just switch out as soon as possible. The main (or only) counterplay to Astrolotl right now is pivoting around with a slow mon, usually letting it free for 2 turns, and going to something that can survive a hit and kill it in one (which is actually not that common when you looks at it).

It's vastly annoying to play against, and probably deserves a nerf. Quziel brought up Toxic, which I agree with. One could also make an argument against Knock-off, or even Spikes. Maybe nerfing its bulk is an option, although I don't really like that idea.
 

Sputnik

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In general I enjoy the CAP metagame in the state that it is in at the moment, but there is one CAP that I personally find beyond irritating and, more importantly, rather unhealthy.

:ss/cawmodore:

I don't think I need to explain what Cawm does. You set up Belly Drum and proceed to sweep...a decent amount of teams, to be frank. Now, being a Belly Drum sweeper with Priority doesn't make something unhealthy, or else Azumarill would be Ubers. But Cawms other notable attributes push it over the edge in my personal opinion.

Cawm has a lot of things going for it in the current metagame. One of the main reasons that I believe that Cawm is just borked is not only how difficult it is to defensively check without employing options like the Rotom Appliances or Aegislash is the fact that it is capable of finding set up opportunities on somewhat common Pokemon. Cawm is capable of potentially setting up on titans of the current CAP metagame; most notably, Equilibra and Jumbao. Admittedly, Cawm has to be somewhat cautious of Jumbao breaking out the Focus Blast and potentially being OHKOd after a Belly Drum, but scouting this is not especially difficult and Focus Blast being used can open a door for some of Cawmodore's teammates. Opportunities can also be potentially found against threats such as Blissey and Rillaboom. And frankly, checking this thing with some otherwise really solid and conventional builds is basically impossible. A team consisting of an otherwise solid pairing of, say, Tomohawk, Equilibra, and Slowking looks excellent until you realize that Cawm likely wrecks the whole team if given an opportunity to set up...and remember, Equilibra. It doesn't help that the most common faster Pokemon that also resists Steel, Zeraoura, doesn't even revenge kill it if Cawm hasn't taken much chip, as Close Combat maxes out at 46% and then Cawm just regains all the health afterwards because Drain Punch is fun. We can just take a look at the rather recently updated Sample Teams for an example of this. The balance team and the Urshifu bulky offense team just lose if Cawm gets a Belly Drum up, and it has set up opportunities against both teams thanks to the first one having an Equilibra without Aura Sphere and the second one having a Jumbao, while even Aura Sphere Libra isn't guaranteed thanks to Aura Sphere's Damage Output maxing out at 53.5%. The Sun team, while admittedly tougher, also has a Jumbao, and the last team is a hyper offense that, while not quite swept in entirety, will be forced to sack at least Rillaboom in order to give Hawlucha the Defense boost it needs to live a Bullet Punch.

I'm not about to sit here and pretend that Cawm doesn't have counterplay because that would be a total lie. The aforementioned three do well enough, and other options like Cycholm and Unaware Arghonaut with Circle Throw definitely exist. However, I feel like Cawm is teetering on the edge of what I'm gonna call "Dracovish Territory" in that it isn't necessarily broken but quite unhealthy overall. Cawm forces an unreasonable amount of counterplay in order to just not lose to it in my opinion. It doesn't help that Cawm on Hyper Offense is real and these teams tend to have ways around otherwise solid Cawm counterplay, most notably through hazard stacking.

This is normally where I would recommend a suspect test, however I do think that out and out banning a CAP wouldn't be a good time. After all, whats the point in creating a CAP only for it to get banned later? I would, however, request a nerf be considered here. I do acknowledge that nerfing Cawm, a Pokemon who's only conceivable role in the metagame with the tools it has been provided is to be a Belly Drum sweeper, would be a tall order that might require a significant rework. However, I think that it could be done, and would create a Pokemon that would be much healthier for the metagame overall.
 
In general I enjoy the CAP metagame in the state that it is in at the moment, but there is one CAP that I personally find beyond irritating and, more importantly, rather unhealthy.

:ss/cawmodore:

I don't think I need to explain what Cawm does. You set up Belly Drum and proceed to sweep...a decent amount of teams, to be frank. Now, being a Belly Drum sweeper with Priority doesn't make something unhealthy, or else Azumarill would be Ubers. But Cawms other notable attributes push it over the edge in my personal opinion.

Cawm has a lot of things going for it in the current metagame. One of the main reasons that I believe that Cawm is just borked is not only how difficult it is to defensively check without employing options like the Rotom Appliances or Aegislash is the fact that it is capable of finding set up opportunities on somewhat common Pokemon. Cawm is capable of potentially setting up on titans of the current CAP metagame; most notably, Equilibra and Jumbao. Admittedly, Cawm has to be somewhat cautious of Jumbao breaking out the Focus Blast and potentially being OHKOd after a Belly Drum, but scouting this is not especially difficult and Focus Blast being used can open a door for some of Cawmodore's teammates. Opportunities can also be potentially found against threats such as Blissey and Rillaboom. And frankly, checking this thing with some otherwise really solid and conventional builds is basically impossible. A team consisting of an otherwise solid pairing of, say, Tomohawk, Equilibra, and Slowking looks excellent until you realize that Cawm likely wrecks the whole team if given an opportunity to set up...and remember, Equilibra. It doesn't help that the most common faster Pokemon that also resists Steel, Zeraoura, doesn't even revenge kill it if Cawm hasn't taken much chip, as Close Combat maxes out at 46% and then Cawm just regains all the health afterwards because Drain Punch is fun. We can just take a look at the rather recently updated Sample Teams for an example of this. The balance team and the Urshifu bulky offense team just lose if Cawm gets a Belly Drum up, and it has set up opportunities against both teams thanks to the first one having an Equilibra without Aura Sphere and the second one having a Jumbao, while even Aura Sphere Libra isn't guaranteed thanks to Aura Sphere's Damage Output maxing out at 53.5%. The Sun team, while admittedly tougher, also has a Jumbao, and the last team is a hyper offense that, while not quite swept in entirety, will be forced to sack at least Rillaboom in order to give Hawlucha the Defense boost it needs to live a Bullet Punch.

I'm not about to sit here and pretend that Cawm doesn't have counterplay because that would be a total lie. The aforementioned three do well enough, and other options like Cycholm and Unaware Arghonaut with Circle Throw definitely exist. However, I feel like Cawm is teetering on the edge of what I'm gonna call "Dracovish Territory" in that it isn't necessarily broken but quite unhealthy overall. Cawm forces an unreasonable amount of counterplay in order to just not lose to it in my opinion. It doesn't help that Cawm on Hyper Offense is real and these teams tend to have ways around otherwise solid Cawm counterplay, most notably through hazard stacking.

This is normally where I would recommend a suspect test, however I do think that out and out banning a CAP wouldn't be a good time. After all, whats the point in creating a CAP only for it to get banned later? I would, however, request a nerf be considered here. I do acknowledge that nerfing Cawm, a Pokemon who's only conceivable role in the metagame with the tools it has been provided is to be a Belly Drum sweeper, would be a tall order that might require a significant rework. However, I think that it could be done, and would create a Pokemon that would be much healthier for the metagame overall.

couldnt agree more, cawm is super wack and the worst part of trying to make the ladder a competitive experience. its way easier in tours because you just know most people wont bring it and throw their matchup on a whim, but on the ladder having to prep for this thing makes teambuilding feel pretty bad, especially when cawm ladder teams range from competent screens/HO builds to 6-caps-thrown-together sets (requiring different lvls of investment in a response), its just matchup fishing and feels unhealthy as said before. i realise cap ladder isnt everyones priority but this would imo be a step in making it a better experience
 

spoo

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In general I enjoy the CAP metagame in the state that it is in at the moment, but there is one CAP that I personally find beyond irritating and, more importantly, rather unhealthy.

:ss/cawmodore:

I don't think I need to explain what Cawm does. You set up Belly Drum and proceed to sweep...a decent amount of teams, to be frank. Now, being a Belly Drum sweeper with Priority doesn't make something unhealthy, or else Azumarill would be Ubers. But Cawms other notable attributes push it over the edge in my personal opinion.

Cawm has a lot of things going for it in the current metagame. One of the main reasons that I believe that Cawm is just borked is not only how difficult it is to defensively check without employing options like the Rotom Appliances or Aegislash is the fact that it is capable of finding set up opportunities on somewhat common Pokemon. Cawm is capable of potentially setting up on titans of the current CAP metagame; most notably, Equilibra and Jumbao. Admittedly, Cawm has to be somewhat cautious of Jumbao breaking out the Focus Blast and potentially being OHKOd after a Belly Drum, but scouting this is not especially difficult and Focus Blast being used can open a door for some of Cawmodore's teammates. Opportunities can also be potentially found against threats such as Blissey and Rillaboom. And frankly, checking this thing with some otherwise really solid and conventional builds is basically impossible. A team consisting of an otherwise solid pairing of, say, Tomohawk, Equilibra, and Slowking looks excellent until you realize that Cawm likely wrecks the whole team if given an opportunity to set up...and remember, Equilibra. It doesn't help that the most common faster Pokemon that also resists Steel, Zeraoura, doesn't even revenge kill it if Cawm hasn't taken much chip, as Close Combat maxes out at 46% and then Cawm just regains all the health afterwards because Drain Punch is fun. We can just take a look at the rather recently updated Sample Teams for an example of this. The balance team and the Urshifu bulky offense team just lose if Cawm gets a Belly Drum up, and it has set up opportunities against both teams thanks to the first one having an Equilibra without Aura Sphere and the second one having a Jumbao, while even Aura Sphere Libra isn't guaranteed thanks to Aura Sphere's Damage Output maxing out at 53.5%. The Sun team, while admittedly tougher, also has a Jumbao, and the last team is a hyper offense that, while not quite swept in entirety, will be forced to sack at least Rillaboom in order to give Hawlucha the Defense boost it needs to live a Bullet Punch.

I'm not about to sit here and pretend that Cawm doesn't have counterplay because that would be a total lie. The aforementioned three do well enough, and other options like Cycholm and Unaware Arghonaut with Circle Throw definitely exist. However, I feel like Cawm is teetering on the edge of what I'm gonna call "Dracovish Territory" in that it isn't necessarily broken but quite unhealthy overall. Cawm forces an unreasonable amount of counterplay in order to just not lose to it in my opinion. It doesn't help that Cawm on Hyper Offense is real and these teams tend to have ways around otherwise solid Cawm counterplay, most notably through hazard stacking.

This is normally where I would recommend a suspect test, however I do think that out and out banning a CAP wouldn't be a good time. After all, whats the point in creating a CAP only for it to get banned later? I would, however, request a nerf be considered here. I do acknowledge that nerfing Cawm, a Pokemon who's only conceivable role in the metagame with the tools it has been provided is to be a Belly Drum sweeper, would be a tall order that might require a significant rework. However, I think that it could be done, and would create a Pokemon that would be much healthier for the metagame overall.
Yeah I agree pretty hard with this whole post, my response a while ago to the survey question sent out to CAPPL players asking about Cawmodore was essentially "cawm is super weird case, it's definitely a problematic pokemon, but there is specific counterplay & it isn't relevant enough in the metagame to really limit high-level teambuilding in any meaningful way and as such addressing it shouldn't be a priority" -- however, iirc Cinderace was still legal at the time of this survey, and there were much bigger fish to fry such as the eventual Astro and Libra nerfing processes, so I was sorta lukewarm on the prospect of Caw getting nerfed but my opinion has shifted a good bit over time.

Right now, counterplay to Cawmodore doesn't really exist in any truly consistent capacity, mostly being limited to applying enough pressure so that it cannot set up, foddering off two-three mons to get repeated Intimidate drops until something can eat a hit, or like keeping your Dragapult at 100% for an entire game somehow. Defensive answers are few and far between, especially considering it is nearly impossible to scout for Cawmodore's fourth move -- Aegislash is a great would-be Cawm check, but many opt to run Knock Off over Drain Punch, and you don't really know which it is until it's already too late. Rotom-H also falls to Knock Off, though Acrobatics has a 50% chance to OHKO from full health anyways so it's not like this was ever the most consistent answer. As Sput said, the only consistent defensive checks are Cyclohm and Arghonaut which uhhh are not the greatest team options for the vast majority of builds. Looking at offensive answers that can outspeed and revenge kill, the list is sparser yet, with options being limited to a well-conserved Dragapult (+6 Bullet Punch can do 97% max), sash Alakazam, scarfed Rotom-A, or scarfed Hydreigon. Zeraora can revenge if it's at 40-50% health but getting to that point is often a great feat in its own right. I don't think anyone should really be happy with that list, picks like scarf Hydrei are sorta just bad and scarf Rotom + sash Zam are rather uncommon, not letting your Pult take a single round of rocks/helmet is often just outright impossible as well. The lack of good Cawm revenge killers is really a symptom of the much broader trend that scarfers are so uncommon right now, it's a pretty meta-dependent issue but there are just not any good fast mons that can kill it at the moment.

I think after hearing all this stuff a lot of people, especially newer players, would be confused when they realize Cawm sees like 1% usage in tournaments and it isn't on every team for whatever reason, but it's actually a super inconsistent mon and that's sorta what's most frustrating about it: it's hugely matchup dependent. It got three whole uses in the first four weeks of SS CAPPL (pls update replay thread luc) and it isn't for no reason. It's an incredibly binary mon by design, with equally binary checks and counters - you either have a Cawm answer and it's dead weight, or you don't have a Cawm answer and you lose from preview, and it often isn't worth the risk so people don't bring it much in high-level play. This is admittedly a tad hyperbolic, it's definitely possible that you play smart and, say, sack mons to get Intimidate drops off with Tomohawk until something is capable of revenge killing, but this really isn't that easy in practice and requires a massive sacrifice to take down just one mon, and Cawm is more than capable of winning games by breaking for its teammates instead of trying to net all six kills. In my experience, the most effective 'counterplay' to Cawmodore is denying it opportunities to set up -- Sput illustrated how this can be rather difficult at times, with staples like Libra and Jumbao giving Cawm a free +6, but it can often be incredibly hard to click BD at times as well. Even with Libra, DD will do ~50-60% to Cawm, putting it in the range of something like Zeraora's CC or a couple hits of helmet damage. Stresh's team in this replay is a good example of a team in which Cawm has next to no opportunities to click BD. Astro kills with Lash, Pex threatens a burn or even Haze, Mandi threatens Foul Play, Shifu kills unless it's locked into Sucker, Zera clicks knock -> CC, the best opportunity it has is on Libra but as I mentioned, clicking DD on the turn Cawm sets up will leave it low enough. Both teams in this replay grant Cawm very few (not zero) opportunities to set up as well. Though, if you got lucky and your opponent brought a Jumbao, Blissey, Rillaboom, or a Libra without a Zera or helmet mons, you can be damn sure that at some point you can freely click BD and net at least one kill. What I'm trying to illustrate is that Cawm is the biggest matchup fish in existence and playing well via applying pressure will only take you so far. It either puts in work or it doesn't, and it often isn't worth the risk in tournament play, but its presence never really goes away either. It's always there, threatening to 6-0 your build, and it warps teambuilding in a really stupid way, especially on the ladder like pip brought up.

On the topic of the ladder though, I might argue that it's here where Cawm is in fact the least healthy, even affecting the accessibility of CAP as a community project. I think all of us at some point have been abruptly swept by a Cawm on the ladder, it's kind of a rite of passage at this point lol but it's also something that happens a lot to newer players and I worry that it is driving these players away from taking the time to learn the tier and giving these players a warped perspective of CAP. It is incredibly disheartening to make a team full of cool looking new pokemon that you're excited to try out and then having your hopes dashed by this shitty bird on your first game after waiting ten minutes to load into a match. Of course we should not be making competitive decisions that intentionally cater to these newer players per se but Cawmodore is really the epitome of the "noob killer" pokemon, more so than anything else I can think of, and I worry that it's a factor that estranges people from this project. Perhaps these people would not be sticking around anyways if all it takes to lose hope is getting swept once or twice but who's to say that this isn't the case either. As pip said, Cawm also has some other notably unhealthy affects on the ladder, and I think a Cawm nerf would be small but meaningful first step to renovating the CAP ladder into an actually decent place.

I'm not really sure what the timeline on a Cawm nerfing process looks like, we are currently in the middle of a project which upon completion will probably have a large tournament, we've got more DLC in 20 days and maybe we get an influx of great scarfers to where Cawm is a non-issue, and all this discussion is pointless, who knows, but at the moment I feel it's very restricting on this tier and it's certainly worth being examined, maybe in an expedited one-week nerfing process before Crown Tundra due to the relative lack of nuance compared to something like Equilibra where no one could agree on what the issue was. I think Cawm has been racking up hate since even before CAPPL and I'm glad it's finally boiled over into this discussion so that some concrete action might be taken.
 

MrDollSteak

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Oh boy, an anti-Cawm thread. I absolutely agree that Cawmodore should be nerfed, and was rather surprised to see this project dropped following the earlier proposal. I believe that more than anything else, the primary thing that needs to be done to nerf Cawmodore is to remove Volt Absorb. Volt Absorb is in my eyes, the exact thing that makes counterplay against Cawmodore so difficult, as it removes one of its key weaknesses, and in particular the STAB of what should be major defensive counters to Cawmodore such as Plasmanta, Rotom-W, as well as possible revenge killers in Caribolt and Zeraora. As we know, one of the only Electric types that is really able to take on Cawmodore at the moment is Cyclohm, and that's because of its access to Fire Blast. This honestly doesn't make any sense. By replacing Volt Absorb, we preserve Cawmodore's Belly Drum sweeping spirit, but open up FAR more counterplay and make teambuilding in the CAP metagame far less restrictive, especially for newer players, as Electric typed Pokemon and moves are already quite ubiquitous as pivots and offensive threats.

For the sake of argument I offer up the following replay:

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/captest-gen8cap-50

While this may not be the most obvious demonstration of how uninteractive Cawmodore is in the current Metagame, if it weren't for the crit on Cawmodore from Rhyperior's Heat Crash, it's quite likely that I would have completely swept Quziel, including their Rotom-W when factoring in that the healing from Drain Punch on Rhyperior and later Rotom-W would have taken Cawmodore up to an HP value of somewhere between 60 and 80%, in comparison to Hydro Pump's damage output of between 65 and 77% and 80% accuracy. Without Volt Absorb however, Rotom-W's Volt Switch would have been a guaranteed OHKO doing between 82 and 97%, provided that Drain Punch didn't crit and Cawmodore had chosen to stay in. Realistically the very presence of Rotom-W as a switchin would always force Cawmodore out in that situation, effectively ending its sweeping potential, as it would only be at about 20-30% after Drain Punching Rhyperior.

I hope that this makes an effective case for a Cawmodore nerf.
 

G-Luke

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Everyone has done several think pieces, so I'm gonna leave this in short - Cawm is seen as overbearing, because its best natural checks - Electric types, which should be an easy fit on a team, are now a liability, and in some cases set up bait versus Cawm. Its a similar reasoning as to why Tomohawk lost access to Earth Power in the Gen 7 updates, on paper this Pokémon should be easily checked by x mons (Mega Metagross and Plasmanta and Mega Crucibelle were the most relevant examples), but thanks to Earth Power, it could flip these naturally disadvantageous matchups on its head. Electric types are the only typing that resists both of Cawm's STABs WHILE also hitting Cawm super effectively. And Volt Absorb completely flips this on its head. I know this may be out of place, but in reality there is only 1 change that should happen to Cawmordore, one that we all know should happen.

#NoToVoltAbsorb
#YesToHugePower
 

spoo

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This is going to be a short post but since I didn’t explicitly state earlier how I personally think Cawmodore should be nerfed, I’m going to throw my support behind Volt Absorb being removed. In my mind, this is the most obvious and most effective way to reduce the matchup-fishy element that Cawm takes to the extreme. It’s an elegant solution and I think it’s one that most people agree upon, although I have also seen the suggestion to remove Bullet Punch which I do not personally think is the right way to go but I figured I’d bring it up anyways.
 

Voltage

OTTN5
is a Pre-Contributor
Call me contrarian, but I think we should wait on doing anything to Cawmodore until the two big meta changes (CAP28dropping, and the DLC dropping) take place and allow for the metagame to settle. I think spoo said it best with how there are going to be a lot of notable threats entering the metagame, and I think it would be a disservice to the CAP process to nerf Cawmodore at this point in time, 3 gens after its introduction right before a pivotal meta shift. I do agree that Cawm is an obnoxious mon to prepare for when building a team, and I'm definitely open to a nerfing later, but I really don't think now is the right time for it.

But in terms of WHY Cawm is problematic, it's been hit on the head. Volt Absorb gives Cawmodore so many opportunities to set up on Pokemon that it shouldn't. I think back to how initially Intimidate was meant to give those opportunities, but then with the addition of Volt Absorb, Cawm threw Intimidate to the wayside. If we were to do it like any other nerf, I would just have it be as simple as changing Volt Absorb to something far less competitive.

Also this would help manage Cawdet in CAP NFE so that's neato too.
 
I legitimately think that any changes to Cawm's abilities ought to be put on hold for at least a week or two until after CAP28 and the Crown Tundra DLC are released. That way, we'll see if anything needs to be done to at least curb Cawm's power level.

Edit: Scratch that, I meant a week or two starting from after CAP28 is released and the Crown Tundra DLC gets released.
 
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reachzero

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Okay, since Cawmodore discussion is the topic of the day, let's talk about why it is creating issues.

Cawmodore is, oddly enough, very similar to Dracovish in a key respect: the best answers to it are Pokemon that are not the usual players in the metagame. If you have those Pokemon, you will handle most Cawmodore rather easily ("usually", but more on that later). If you do not, likely because you have "punted" Cawmodore to make your team stronger against the rest of the metagame, you are consigned to the unhappy strategy of "don't let Caw set up". There are some issues with that strategy.

"Don't let Caw set up" is not an impossible strategy, but considerably difficult for a simple reason: Cawmodore's unique practical typing and functionally immense PTank make it hard to deter with physical attackers that aren't about as strong as Urshifu. The single biggest issue with Cawmodore is that a Cawmodore at 1 HP is almost exactly as dangerous and difficult to handle as a Cawmodore at 70%--its counters remain specific and few, and Drain Punch will bring it back to full rather easily if you play it wrong at all. Ironically, this quality of Cawmodore's is what makes Intimidate almost complete unheard of: any attack Caw can take with 50% left after Sitrus Berry, it can set up on, even counterintuitive stuff like SpD Astrolotl's Fire Lash (0 Atk Astrolotl Fire Lash vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Cawmodore: 150-176 (61.9 - 72.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO). A good Cawmodore team will have pivots to bring Cawmodore into favorable matchups (Blissey is ideal), so it is difficult to use this strategy if you have any Pokemon Cawmodore can set up on.

Choice Scarf users have become less common now than in the past, most notably with the dramatic decline in Scarf Volkraken late in Gen 7, when quite simply Scarf users are a key part of traditional counterplay to Cawmodore. The fact that Zeraora is not an adequate Cawmodore answer is probably the single greatest dilemma to preventing a Cawmodore sweep; it is incredibly difficult to build a Zeraora team that is not Cawmodore-weak. The answers that do exist that aren't Scarf users are few: defensive Arghonaut can tank an Acrobatics and phaze Cawmodore with Circle Throw or kill if with Foul Play, but it will take considerably damage in doing so (51.2 - 60.8%) and will likely (91%) die if Circle Throw misses. Defensive Cyclohm with Static does well (+6 252 Atk Cawmodore Drain Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cyclohm: 165-195 (39.2 - 46.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO), though it needs Fire Blast to even give it a 50% chance to KO Caw from full health, so it has to avoid taking residual damage that could bring it into 2HKO range. Slack Off spamming to fish for Static activation is better, but the uptick in Nasty Plot Togekiss is also incentivizing Shield Dust Cyclohm, making matters messier. Offensive Cyclohm is 2HKOed by Drain Punch, but OHKOs clean with Modest Flamethrower, making it one of the most reliable answers. There are a handful of acceptable-to-good Choice Scarf users that handle Caw well: Hydreigon is the best, OHKOing Caw from full with Flamethrower, while taking "just" 69.5 - 82.1% from +6 Bullet Punch, meaning you can safely take Stealth Rock damage once. Chandelure is one of my personal favorites, taking only 43.2 - 50.9% from +6 Bullet Punch, surviving most of the time even after taking Stealth Rock damage twice, while being very good against offense and very much a factor against defensive teams. Foul Play makes several Scarf users good Caw answers that would otherwise not be, namely Rotom-W, Urshifu, Colossoil and Kitsunoh. Adamant Urshifu can KO Caw with Close Combat/Wicked Blow/Surging Strikes 68.8% of the time from 75% or 100% of the time if Caw took Stealth Rock damage, making it passable but somewhat shaky. That all sounds good! ...unless there are Screens.

Screens and the ease of access we presently have to them are, in my opinion, the greatest barrier to handling Cawmodore--Astrolotl and Dragapult are each superlative Screens users, and every single Caw counter fails (except Static defensive Cyclohm) if the relevant Screen is up. The other major issue is missing--missing Fire Blast (for Cyclohm) or low rolling with a set lacking full SpA EVs.

In summary, a team that is built taking Cawmodore into account will neutralize it effectively--most of the time, assuming no Screens, assuming only a carefully limited amount of residual damage. A team that "punts" Cawmodore will almost certainly lose to it. As others have noted, Volt Absorb is a major factor now above all because Zeraora is such an important part of the speed control game--take off Volt Absorb, and Caw viability drops very dramatically, as nearly all reason to not use Zeraora vanishes. I am not opposed to a nerf, but I am cautious to see this go well--Caw presently depends on Volt Absorb very heavily, and I would not be surprised to see it fall to UR without it.
 

Sputnik

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I have seen a few people concerned about what removing Volt Absorb would mean for Cawm as a whole, so I think it is worth briefly going over what other options there are in terms of nerfing Cawm.

For what it is worth I am still in favor of a reevaluation of Volt Absorb, but I think discussing other options is beneficial. Removing Bullet Punch isn't the way to go in my opinion, as that would also result in a dramatic drop in viability, makes counterplay rather easy to fit onto teams, and kind of goes against the basic premise of the Pokemon in my opinion.

There are two other options that require a serious look in my opinion

1. Removing Drain Punch.
This would serve to make Cawmodore counterplay much more straightforward in the long run. Hitting Cawm as it sets up, for example, becomes much more detrimental to the Cawmodore in the long run. Without Drain Punch Cawm would be forced to run Knock Off on all sets. This is by no means a bad option, as it improves matchups against the Rotom appliances and Aegislash anyway, but losing Drain Punch hurts. Knock Off also doesn't OHKO Equilibra.

Overall, however, I'm not a fan of this option. I don't think it fixes the core issue of what makes Cawmodore broken. Like, yeah, it won't have recovery anymore, but Knock ruins a lot of would be "counters" anyway and Cawm would still clean house against the vast majority of teams if Libra is chipped at all. This would be a Band-Aid solution, and not the one I would consider. However...

2. Removing Acrobatics
This one is a lot more interesting to me. Without Acrobatics Cawm would be forced to rely on the significantly weaker Drill Peck for its STAB move of choice. While, yeah, 80 BP is still OK enough, Cawm misses out on A LOT of crucial KOs without the power boost provided by Acrobatics.

+6 252 Atk Cawmodore Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 303-357 (99.6 - 117.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

+6 252 Atk Cawmodore Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Rotom-Heat: 267-315 (88.1 - 103.9%) -- 25% chance to OHKO

+6 252 Atk Cawmodore Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 382-450 (96.9 - 114.2%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO

+6 252 Atk Cawmodore Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 252 HP / 36+ Def Rotom-Wash: 235-277 (77.3 - 91.1%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

+6 252 Atk Cawmodore Drill Peck vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 220-259 (72.3 - 85.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

+6 252 Atk Cawmodore Drill Peck vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Rotom-Heat: 195-229 (64.3 - 75.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+6 252 Atk Cawmodore Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 450-530 (114.2 - 134.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+6 252 Atk Cawmodore Drill Peck vs. 252 HP / 36+ Def Rotom-Wash: 171-201 (56.2 - 66.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

It's also worth noting that SlowKING has a very good shot at living Drill Peck with significant defense investment.

With intelligent play, this would make Cawm more manageable for traditional balance structures, especially those relying on the aforementioned bulky Water-types. This would also be complemented by potential Intimidate Spam from Tomo.

Just to make something clear I believe that Removing Volt Absorb is still my preferred option. However, if that isn't wanted, I think that removing Acrobatics should be a considered option.
 

Voltage

OTTN5
is a Pre-Contributor
Basically, I will reiterate that if Cawm does get a nerf, I would more or less vouch for the Volt Absorb removal, though Sput brings up a good point that Drain Punch Recovery is absolutely insane on this mon as well. However, since it's easier for me to voice my thoughts rather than type them, I made a quick video on Cawmodore here:
 
"Don't let Caw set up" is not an impossible strategy, but considerably difficult for a simple reason: Cawmodore's unique practical typing and functionally immense PTank make it hard to deter with physical attackers that aren't about as strong as Urshifu. The single biggest issue with Cawmodore is that a Cawmodore at 1 HP is almost exactly as dangerous and difficult to handle as a Cawmodore at 70%--its counters remain specific and few, and Drain Punch will bring it back to full rather easily if you play it wrong at all. Ironically, this quality of Cawmodore's is what makes Intimidate almost complete unheard of: any attack Caw can take with 50% left after Sitrus Berry, it can set up on, even counterintuitive stuff like SpD Astrolotl's Fire Lash (0 Atk Astrolotl Fire Lash vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Cawmodore: 150-176 (61.9 - 72.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO).
just wanna touch in on this since was just talking about it in the discord. i think the power of Drain Punch is severely underestimated when it comes to the general view on Cawmodore. with Drain Punch you can trade hits with anything that cant ohko you (aka. almost all physical attackers outside of screens, any damn near everything inside of screens) and heal back up to full health. Its basically impossible to chip a cawmodore down to a meaningful level, for instance Blaze kick Zera will miss out on the ko at 75%, Kril will be outsped and beaten thanks to this attack healing, it also lets you cheese defensive variants of Rotom-W in the past. A good (healthy?) way of answering setup mons can be to throw bodies at it until you can finally take it down/eventually pick it off with priority, either through rocky helmets and good prediction or just trading blows when you have something that can survive a hit, and drain punch heavily nullifies this. Even if its not on the set, its something you have to worry about heavily when switching around Cawm into something that can handle it. So I want to suggest on top of Volt Absorb removal (which is quite reliant on the assumption that future Tapu Koko will stay in the tier and that Zera will stay relevant after DLC both of which i find iffy) that Drain Punch -> Brick Break.

This will allow Rocky Helmet users, defensive mons like Skarmory and Corviknight, priority users such as Weavile/Syclant/Conk/Urshifu as well as electric types (when Cawm is protected by screens) to actually get some lasting damage to help handle the mon. Just removing volt absorb and Cawm can still handle a lot of elecs under screens (its strongest playstyle) with the healing power of Drain Punch.

252 SpA Life Orb Krilowatt Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Cawmodore through Light Screen: 179-212 (74.2 - 87.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Zeraora Plasma Fists vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Cawmodore through Reflect: 118-139 (48.9 - 57.6%) -- 94.9% chance to 2HKO
0- SpA Zeraora Volt Switch vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Cawmodore through Light Screen: 88-105 (36.5 - 43.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Rotom-Wash Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Cawmodore through Light Screen: 160-190 (66.3 - 78.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO


edit: it already has brick break so that makes life easier lol
 
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quziel

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Frankly, in terms of the intent of the designers, I find Knock Off to be far more problematic. Drain punch was intended, and factored into the power of the mon, and while ye, it can 100% lead to silly trading where Cawm becomes impossible to KO thanks to healing, its also again, part of the original design intent. What wasn't intended is Caw having a way to hit even Fighting-resistant electrics for heavy damage with Knock Off, and this also denies a few options that would otherwise check Caw, eg Aegislash. Basically, the following mons would then become consistent answers (from full):

+6 252 Atk Cawmodore Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Both: 212-249 (81.2 - 95.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+6 252 Atk Cawmodore Drain Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Krilowatt: 334-393 (75.3 - 88.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+6 252 Atk Cawmodore Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 252 HP / 128 Def Rotom-Heat: 237-279 (77.9 - 91.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+6 252 Atk Cawmodore Drain Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Cyclohm: 224-264 (62.7 - 73.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+6 252 Atk Cawmodore Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Cyclohm: 289-341 (80.9 - 95.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+6 252 Atk Cawmodore Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 0 HP / 252 Def Plasmanta: 198-234 (75.8 - 89.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+6 252 Atk Cawmodore Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 252 Def Plasmanta: 233-275 (89.2 - 105.3%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO

This is relatively minor, but expanding the list of mons that can check Caw without directly outrunning directly makes it easier to deal with, and adds meaningful counterplay that isn't just "run a scarfer and don't ever let it get into BP range". Yeah, Caw is supposed to end a game instantly if it sets up and is in the right situation, but the fact that its proper difficult to revenge, trivial to enable with our screen setters, and stupid to check defensively isn't great. Volt Absorb is another problematic element which takes Electric types, which would otherwise be solid BP resists and be able to hit it SE, and turns them into actual setup.

Frankly, in terms of the unintended issues iwth Caw, I would support both Knock Off and Volt Absorb being removed.
 
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