Metagame SV RU Metagame Discussion (April Shifts, see post #191)

[HoopsspooH]

I’ve been playing quite a lot of this new meta thanks to RULT and wanted to give my thoughts on what I’ve seen recently as the lone balance player on ladder. (jkjk)


These two have been incredibly good against HO in my experience. Hippo does what Hippo did last time it was in the tier and provides an excellent matchup into every physical attacker under the sun. Its combination of being fat, having roar, and setting sand and rocks has broken nearly every physical attacker I’ve played against, Tera Steel exemplifies this bulk, as much of the tier is running dragon stab. I think helmet on this is definitely the best item as well, it forces physical attackers and even comfey to need to play extremely carefully around you. Bellibolt is in a pretty similar vein to Hippo, providing a fat mon that can get off passive chip with toxic and easy recovery with Parabolic Charge. You can run volt switch or protect on it as last, both work extremely well. I think both of these mons stack up extremely well against the mostly physical meta.


AV Hoopa may be one of the better special walls in the tier, as it tanks essentially every special hit and isn’t passive with its massive attack and special attack stats. I’ve personally been running a mixed set with psychic noise, drain punch , knock off and filler. Psychic noise neuters anything rhyming with bomfey or stored power draining kiss Mew, some of the most potent sweepers in the tier right now. Hoopa makes progress on both balance and HO teams with knock off riding off a base 160 attack stat, and manages to stay healthy with drain punch.


This bug is still extremely good in the current tier, as priority is almost everything right now. With a Stab priority move that matches up well into the slew of dark and psychic sweepers, as well as just being able to do good damage against most of the tier quickly. Its defensive profile also works well for it against other priority in the tier, like Conk and Breloom Mach Punches or Bisharp Sucker Punches.

Brokens

The things I think that need to go immediately are and maybe

First off, Comfey and Mew are the two things I fear most at team preview, although I think Mew is a little more pressing than Comfey. Mew is very easily able to switch in on much of the tier and set up IDs, CMs, or even DDs. I think the most threatening is definite the double dance stored power sweeper but the amount of utility that this mon can have makes me think it should really have no place in the tier. Comfey is very similar to mew, however it lacks the ability to set up its defense easily which can definitely be negated through tera, but is something to be mentioned. Being able to sweep through an endgame unopposed and with minimal setup is also something extremely unhealthy for the tier. I do think that there is some counter play to these two through methods that have already been mentioned in this thread, but it’s limited at best and is not something that should be required on every team in order to beat them.


In my experience, these two always miss out on KOs even when boosted, this is more so with Salamence than Haxorus, but I feel that we have enough defensive counter play in the tier to deal with them, through things like Roar hippo or even Unaware quag. This doesn’t entirely apply to Salamence as neither of those options appreciate switching into a specs Draco. Also needing to bring a definite answer to them doesn’t add much to the tier and really just constrains it providing a lot of merit towards a ban from them.


I haven’t dealt with the bird much, which definitely skews my opinion, but once again, I feel like there is definite counterplay in the form of rocky helmet hippo and other fat defensive options. This bird is killing itself pretty quickly if it is banded, but I do see the potential problem of it ripping a hole through your team with banded sets.


Both use Booster Energy and go to town on teams. Jugulis still does the same thing it did before it got banned by breaking open teams incredibly easily for its team and out speeding everything outside of swift swimmers. I’m not to sure about Iron Leaves, but I can definitely see the tera fire SD Booster speed set being extremely hard to deal with.


Thunderus-T seems extremely strong in my interactions with it, especially if it’s running specs. This can rip through teams with a few correct predictions, the only problem with it being its weakness to rocks. This thing is also extremely fast too, so I wouldn’t be sad to see it gone. Hoopa-U seems pretty slow for the current meta, but it’s going to be crazy after bans remove the extremely broken options on the tier. Might be nice to remove it earlier rather than later.

 

[Bice]

some random thoughts as i farm rulters practice for the next cycle of rult

it's okay? can def force progress thanks to its nuking power, even ignoring its unblockable* stealth rocks, but against bulkier teams it feels like setup fodder for stuff like rocks hippowdon and okidogi. one of the better HO leads right now though, again thanks to its good power. tailwind has come in clutch a couple times too, but trailblaze can be a funny option against the water/grounds too.
* assuming it doesn't miss

even with being one of our scant few removal options, it just can't keep up right now. i'd imagine once some of the bigger threats get banned it'll be a nice option for teams that can't afford to use cyclizar, but in a HO- and weather- centric meta its too slow and frail. i did experiment with custap lead donphan due to its hazard removal capabilities and it's utter ass, please don't use lead elephant.

matchup flowers! honestly it needs to go, really unpredictable between Tera and its wide support movepool, and triage is a dumbfuck ability. feels like an annoying mu fish too, just an unfun addition overall. other people summed up my thoughts on this mon way better than i ever could, so i don't have much else to add other than: who the fuck thought triage was a good idea

i am impressed at how well revavroom has survived power creep. it does the exact same shift gear bs it's always done, but in a tier where threats like comfey rule the roost, it's better than ever. really strong HO mon that can form a nice glue thanks to its typing.

both could definitely be problematic later down the line, but there's more egregious threats rn so their power levels don't seem as unmanageable rn.

A Fucking Problem thanks to the scarf-or-band guessing game; scarf outspeeds most of the unboosted tier while still hitting decently hard, and band is able to 2HKO even the most physically bulky pokemon in the tier. forcing non-HO to run hippo or slowbro on every team is ass, especially since many teams that have to run the latter want to run slowking, which leads me to another problem:

outside of gardevoir, slowking, and water absorb/storm drain guys (all of which are prone to being overwhelmed), rain feels fucking obnoxious to play and build against. i really hope drizzle, or at least damp rock, gets banned. it was already hella borderline before this but new drops like kingdra (and to a lesser extent feraligatr) pushes it over the edge.

local lightning bird spotted working at mcdonald's following thundurus's move to RU

jokes aside i can definitely see this becoming a problem. even with its middling speed tier it still rips holes through teams by virtue of its solid movepool, as it can run any combination of nasty plot, volt switch, thunderbolt, tera blast (flying or ice), focus blast, psychic, grass knot, or sludge bomb. it has very few consistent answers and i think choiced sets have potential too. as Hoops said above better to get rid of it now before it becomes an even bigger issue post-bans.

 

[LBN]

Aight after suffering in RULT I think I'm now qualified enough to mald! Either way, I'll post some thoughts on what I've seen so far.

Send it to the depths where it belongs. Tera Steel DD is everything we expected Salamence to do, except somehow Salamence is a fraud at DD somehow. Try mix draco though people that set prolly fire. Shittier dragons aside, this pokemon's checks are basically null, SD SS, and DD are extremely potent and counterplay after a setup is basically null or hope it's in range for a Jugulis / Leaves of your own or priority. No defensive measures are actually effective besides Avalugg, which should tell you everything I need to honestly.

QDQC Glowbro is back baby, and even less luckier for me than usual. My terrible fucking luck aside, this pokemon is alright. Checking Iron leaves reliably is a nice trait to have, and while Reuniclus is a pain in the ass for it, I think QDQC doesn't infringe on it's gimmick to much. I wanna try summ 3a offensive with this thing, CM is a waste of time Reuniclus and Tinkaton just ruin that set entirely. Has potential though, try it out.

I'm gonn get called a bum for this later but who cares, this thing is fucking Moltres-Galar with a fresh coat of fucking paint. It's been doin the exact same dumb nonsense since it's got high horsepower and shit it shoulda been banished back then too. RU got a whole bunch new drops and all of them are perfect flinching targets. Hippowdon is genuinely the only proper "check" we have, and it's liable to lose to it endgame cuz of Air Balloon and flinch games. Hippowdon also doesn't run boots much if ever, so that's another thing that exemplifies that issue. Air balloon has made it the Anti-Comfey task force manager on HOs, and I'll be honest comfey aside, this is the most obnoxious mon on HO right now. Haxorus is flavor on HO, this thing is the backbone in which HO operates. Personally, I'd be completely fine with a suspect / vote on this thing at some point, Quagsire being good tricked yall into thinking this stupid ass Ferrari bastard was ok. People have said that "I've had some many games come down to my comfey setting up first" and I've had an equal amount of times come down to who's revavroom still had it's balloon intact. It's checks are extremely fake, oftentimes either being a Hippowdon post balloon popping or forcing a tera, and it's very hard to OHKO / stop when it's setting up on whatever it pleases. If there's one thing I want to be listened on, let it be this.

Contrary to the above, I've used custap Donphan outside the lead slot to great success. It's usually bulky / strong enough to live alot of physical hits, and custap quakes/ice spinners are incredibly high value. Spin support aswell, it's a solid pick, especially on Sun imo. Don't use donphan expecting it to last forever, you use this thing of Offenses, if you need your spinner to stick around use cyclizar for that, and if you want your spinners to be ass use Forretress.

Putting all the relevant weather archetypes here (no hippowdon sand teams arent real), but I think that having all 3 of these let loose without restrictions is really obnoxious in the builder. Hail is the least of the issues, but Cetitan + Alolaslash is very annoying to handle for teams and it's a fish of valuable nature. Especially since Bronzong is currently not on many people's radar yet, not with Mr Mold Breaker at the top of this post just EQing it. Sun is doing about what you'd expect. Venusaur, Slither Wing, H-Lilli and friends coming to OHKO your entire offensive team with minimal effort. Not too much to say, but there's alot of flavor options with this weather more than the others. Necrozma, Cresselia, Comfey, Donphan, and probably others are all solid picks for sun outside of the usual. Rain on the other hand is loaded praying for no slowking hippo or volcanion, and if they are absent your set for the races. Lots of rain options aswell, but most of the time you just load the usual. I don't think they are standout options right now, and truthfully having to be concerned over all 3 of these is a huge pain for the builder, but idk what the solution would be.

I'll be honest the tier being an HO fuckfest right in time for RULT is probably the most obnoxious possible outcome. Sure it's ok from a "we get to see the nonsense" POV, but having pretty much 1/3 games from an RULT account being some form of HO, more than it usually is which says a lot, on arguably the most unfun tour on the entire website is extremely draining and kinda kills all motivation to test in a new meta. I really hope the ban slate on Sunday does something to curb HOs effectiveness, because the likely bans right now (Comfey and Haxorus) are not remotely enough to make HO more manageable.

 

[RyuSnowシ]

I like how hydreigon was banned but thundurus is treated like a non-existent thing, its funny.

 

[shooting star]

Quick thoughts after playing 20+ games:

Quickban this asap, counterplay to this thing is close to zero. Offense gets shredded by DD / Scale Shot, and often have to react by using priority moves like ESpeed or Ice Shard, and even that is not enough since Haxorus can simply Tera Steel. Balance and Stall gets obliterated by SD, and Mold Breaker ignores Unaware Quagsire.

Stored Power shenanigans have also infested the ladder, and commonly run Tera Poison for Toxic immunity. Once a PU mon in gen 8, Tera grants Comfey many options to bypass its would-be checks and counters pretty easily. Even Blissey is not safe since it can't do anything back, and also gets deleted with Stored Power. I can thus understand why many people are so keen on seeing this mon go.

I am not sure why nobody has mentioned this yet. Maybe because Umbreon is currently in NU, but I find it to be pretty reliable in punishing many physical attackers like Maushold with Foul Play and reliable bulk. It losing Heal Bell is not too big a deal since it can also spread Toxic and Thunder Wave to cripple the opponent.

Tera Dark Quagsire checks most Stored Power mons pretty well since it is now immune to Stored Power and able to threaten them bar Cresselia with Earthquake since most of them commonly run Tera Poison.

Overall a chaotic but nevertheless interesting metagame to play, looking forward to see how it changes after several bans to come.

 

[BolTingBlazie]

I feel like Okidogi flew under the radar but seems like something that could be pretty busted, only saw one mention of it on the forums but seems like it could be too good

 

[carbonlifeform]

A few non-standard sets I've run that seem to be doing decent work for me so far while I throw spaghetti at the wall trying to craft anti-meta stuff:

Defensive 'Dogi
Okidogi @ Leftovers
Ability: Toxic Chain
Tera Type: Fairy
EVs: 224 HP / 16 Def / 208 SpD / 60 Spe
Impish Nature
- Protect
- Drain Punch
- Knock Off
- Poison Fang

Strictly not as good as BU sets (which I haven't tried yet but are very possibly broken; BU Dogi is a menace), this set is specifically meant to make progress against standard 'Dogi checks while still doing 'Dogi things in its normal MUs. Poison Fang over Jab to maximize Toxic procs. Knock to force progress, especially with Toxic Chain. Drain Punch for longevity. Protect to scout sets/wrack up toxic damage + lefties recovery. Tera Fairy retains the useful fighting, bug, and dark resists of its base typing while shuffling weaknesses. Partners well with Hex Spam.

Loaded Dice Mamo
Mamoswine @ Loaded Dice
Ability: Thick Fat
Tera Type: Ice
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Earthquake
- Icicle Spear
- Rock Blast
- Ice Shard

No Trail Blaze means it's rarely going to function as a WinCon (outside of cleaning up with Ice Shard), instead really leaning into a role as a breaker. Ground + Ice + Rock is stupid coverage, and with Dice, Icicle Spear + Rock Blast offer a significant power/reliability improvement over Icicle Crash and Stone Edge. STAB Tera Ice Shard smacks a lot of major meta threats after minimal chip (and if you've got the health to take a hit, you just click EQ into a predicted Tera Steel/Fire).

Utility Pivot Flygon
Flygon @ Leftovers
Ability: Levitate
Tera Type: Steel
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Stealth Rock
- First Impression / Dragon Claw
- Earthquake
- U-turn

Flygon lost Roost and Defog, but at least it finally got Rocks, and it's a surprisingly decent setter, with solid MUs into other setters and its typing giving it lots of opportunities to reset rocks if they get removed. Tera Steel + Levitate make it one of the rare reliable switch-ins to most Comfey (watch out for Tera Fire) and Mamo sets. I tend to prefer the utility of First Impression over the reliability of Dragon Claw, but do what works.

4 Attacks Flygon
Flygon @ Life Orb
Ability: Levitate
Tera Type: Steel / Ground
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- First Impression
- Earthquake
- Dragon Claw
- U-turn

Superficially similar to the above set but plays completely differently. I boosted this set in OU, where I had about as much success with it as you can get running Flygon in a tier where it's grossly outmatched. In short Levitate + Rocks resistance makes LO a way lower commitment for Flygon than most other 'mons in a hazards-heavy gen, and LO Flygon hits surprisingly hard. Tera Steel lets it do its thing for longer, while Tera Ground lets it clean up with EQ more readily (LO STAB Tera EQ is a 2HKO on Quagsire with one layer of Spikes).

Lead/Pivot Coba
Cobalion @ Leftovers
Ability: Justified
Tera Type: Flying
EVs: 252 Def / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Taunt
- Stealth Rock
- Body Press
- Volt Switch

Coba getting Body Press drastically reduces the number of decisions/sacrifices you need to make in a lead set. You can just maximize your Defense and get power out of it at the same time, AND you can run Timid over Jolly to not further weaken your Volt Switches.

Overall, meta is fun, even with the broken stuff running around, but it's insane to think that this is technically the same tier I was playing last summer.

Edit: Kept getting matched with folks in the 11-1200s today, but just grabbed a couple of decent replays against some RULT folks with a team running the 'Dogi, Rocks Flygon, and Mamo sets:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ru-2054043317?p2
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ru-2054036145

 

[fyzmelm]

I think the car is too broken.It has a set with gunk shot+iron head+shift gear+high horsepower.None of Pokémon can take on its attack.

 

[Lime]

Hey ruers, here are some non standard jugulis sets I've been using and they've been putting in work.

Booster Sweeper

Iron Jugulis @ Booster Energy
Ability: Quark Drive
Tera Type: Fighting
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Dark Pulse
- Work Up
- Focus Blast
- Hurricane
Utilities work up/charge beam to increase its power, tera fighting focus blast hits like a truck and nukes stuff like umbreon, cyclizar etc. Puts a lot of pressure on teams and makes up room for ho partners like yanmega to clean up.

Physical Sweeper

Iron Jugulis @ Booster Energy
Ability: Quark Drive
Tera Type: Flying / Ground
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Knock Off
- Work Up
- Acrobatics
- Earth Power
Another fun set that works great at helping its teammates, can heavily chip/beat mons like blissey to ease stall mu for ho, can knock helmet from something like hippowdon for its partner in crime maushold. Earth power is for Bisharp.

There are also some funny specs tera flying on rain, meteor beam power herb sets I saw on ladder.

Thoughts on jugulis

I think iron jugulis should be considered for action, it has 20% chance to beat your checks, is the fastest mon on field most of the time and is not easy to wall at all.

Thanks for reading, have a good day/night!

 

[turtledoggo1]

Small post, but while laddering for RULT I can't help but feel like many games come down to matchup. And while yes balance is pretty good and yes most sweepers have their flaws and can be mitigated, it's hard to have outs against all of the threats running around. With that being said (and a bit contradictory), I find the tier very fun to play. I feel as though just a few bans will result in a much, much better metagame:



Ngl I'm not really sure what's available to properly answer this thing. Playing around this is like walking on egg shells-- between the various tera types it can use, the raw strength and speed, and easy setup opportunities on many staple balance Pokemon, it feels incredibly difficult to consistently play around. While in some matchups it can be a little tera reliant, in others it can quickly plow through teams. I don't really think this contributes to the metagame meaningfully, and I hope action is considered.



Its raw power is brutal, and similar to Leaves I feel as if there's very little that stands in the way as far as reliable counterplay goes. Not much can really take any of its attacks once boosted, besides Hippo, which doesn't even threaten an immediate KO after a Scale Shot. Offensively, there's a few scarfers that can revenge kill it, but between Tera and setup for its teammates, it feels far too easy for Haxorus to open huge holes in teams.



Agreeing with the post above that action on Jugulis is probably warranted, or at least sometime down the line. It 2HKOs everything with ease, and promotes cheesy luck in an already volatile metagame. Its speed tier is nice though for revenge killing certain threats, and it's not egregiously unwallable, but still feels like a nuisance to building and playing.

Otherwise, things like Necrozma and Mew just feel very underused atm, and in the case of the latter, unexplored too.

Here are some teams I used (besides Eifo HO)

https://pokepast.es/4112927b00215457

https://pokepast.es/435b9b133b5b8dd0

 

[lavarina]

Otherwise, things like Necrozma and Mew just feel very underused atm, and in the case of the latter, unexplored too.

i might be wrong with the unexplored part, but weren't there a lot of sets with these two mons thanks to their movepool? last time i checked people wanted Mew rebanned since its set is unpredictable at times.

though underused is definitely right, mainly because theres a lot better/broken choices to pick. once those are gone though, maybe itll be their turn on the chopping block.

 

[Feliburn]

We held a vote on the following Pokémon:



Here are the results:

Votes

Which means...

Comfey & Haxorus are now banned from SV RU. Tagging ..... dhelmise ? and Marty to implement on ladder, thank you!

 

[Salikkc]

Has already been mentioned quite a lot of times but this thing for sure has to go, its always a guessing game to know what tera comfey is between tera poison and ground, along with the multiple options of coverage/utility it can use, between taunt, synthesis, encore, giga drain, etc

I could just be a scrub(I am) but I have a lot of trouble dealing with calm mind stored power sets against comfey.

 

[THE_CHUNGLER]

Over the past week, I competed in the ongoing ladder tournament and qualified for a bye in the upcoming playoffs. I thought it would be fun to post a few thoughts about the post-home drops meta after playing over 100 games between laddering and testing. I also wanted to show off some of the teams I used.

For my first, I don't know, 20 games? I was using an assortment of ok to bad teams I made myself, and was playing extremely poorly. At one point I definitely had a gxe under 60, and I was considering starting a new alt to ladder from. My rational brain convinced me otherwise, there's really no point in a ladder tour that only cares about elo rating. I eventually settled on an early version of this sun team to barrel through the lower parts of the ladder: here

It performed fairly well against the different variations of offense that comprised 80% of teams on the tour ladder. was my bulky ground of choice, it has a perfect moveset for a bulky pivot that can take physical (and special, 90 base spdef!) hits when needed, knock off a hippo's item, get rocks, and flip out. I led with this guy more than I led ninetales, especially when there was a fairly obvious lead from the opponent that would put me on the backfoot if I led Tales.

Speaking of, gets up the sun and has a great support moveset with healing wish and encore, 2 things I knew I needed to keep team members healthy while "pivoting" out lategame to maximize sun, and to help against opposing setup, especially the bulky calm minders like Comfey, Cress, and Mew.

just dropped to RU, and I knew I wanted to use it on sun. Giga/Weather ball/Sludge is great coverage as long as you can keep the weather up, and growth makes it extremely powerful with 1 turn of setup. I used timid Venusaur in order to outspeed adamant Car, Booster Jugulis, and Shell smash Blastoise.

is a great defensive pokemon for sun teams across generations, and its no different here. CM stored power is a great cheese set that can steal wins from games you should've lost, and it's hard to stop without specific counterplay. Standard set aside from weakness policy, which I loved to get boosting faster, and take advantage of weak knock offs or u-turns. Sometimes I could take the knock, even from something strong, heal up with boosted morning sun, tera poison and sweep on someing I had no business sweeping.

Using Swampert as my bulky ground meant was a good fit for spin. I also needed something to take special hits, and frankly I use this guy on almost every team as you can see. Overheat can get a surprise kill or damage on coballion or another weakened steel type like tinkaton or bisharp. Even neutral targets take about as much from overheat as draco in the sun.

" is the goat vs the ladder" and that's especially true when 405 attack becomes 526 with sun. Boots to keep it healthy means it can live some strong hits at full hp when needed, and tera fire will sometimes protect you well enough against moltres so you don't need protective pads as badly. Flare blitz can destroy a comfey encored into CM, and you can also do this in an emergency:
252+ Atk Protosynthesis Tera Fire Slither Wing Flare Blitz vs. 248 HP / 156+ Def Moltres in Sun: 182-214 (47.5 - 55.8%) -- 80.9% chance to 2HKO. Obviously revenging with first impression and breaking holes in phys def mons like Hippo and slowking is its main role.

Overall I thought this team did amazing work against almost all of the offense teams I fought on the ladder, standard kleavor ho gets bullied by venusaur if they don't have a sweeper that can boost speed fast enough, It also did well against the other more specialized HO teams like grassy terrain, psy terrain, rain, and webs. Playing against hippo+slowking was by no means unwinnable, but hippo is still the most annoying mon for this team to face, which means I don't think it will age as well once the meta becomes less offense focused. The best way to win against it was to knock hippos item early, u-turning or ccing on it with slither wing to chip it down, and going into venusaur to threaten it out when possible. If the opponent knows you're not earth power on venusaur though and goes freely into their steel type, it's going to be a long, tough match. Sometimes cress can pull a win out of its ass against a poorly built team or if a key piece vs it gets sacked.


I used this team after stealing it from Feliburn after he destroyed me in a room tour with it so shout outs to him. I won't post specific sets because it isn't my team to do so, but it was my most consistent team against every playstyle for most of the run, dual priority is fantastic and okidogi is an absolute menace vs. a balance team without a specific answer for it. Rotom is one of my favorite pivots as a ground immune with the always invaluable will-o-wisp (85% of the time).



I made this team only a day or two before the end of the tour after seeing again, feliburn, in the discord recommend Coballion+Moltres. eats knock off for moltres, whileswitches into ground, fighting, and fairy moves for Coballion. When you aren't forced to run rocks on Coba, this iron defense body press volt set can win really dumb matchups. The speed and threat level on a 129 defense invested pokemon is amazing.

Paired with to help vs rain which is a huge threat and just being the best ground type in the tier to handle all kinds of HO BS.

is EXTREMELY good right now, and even though tera fire SD is worse than last meta, BU+jungle healing or BU+drain punch is probably just as good as its ever been. Insane bulk on this thing, tera poison is a great type flip on all of its weaknesses. I love pokemon that, when set up, just win games by themselves. But this guy isn't just a match up fish, because even in games where it doesn't sweep, it has amazing early and mid game value, knocking everything off and absorbing status from stuff like washtom and slowking. You can even freely knock moltres because of jungle healing without fear. Removing helmets helps both coballion and comfey set up for sweeps as well.

Wrist icicle ride dick bicycle

is a broken setup mon with amazing value against HO and rain. If an ho team goes revaroom to stop this thing from sweeping, you're still popping that balloon for hippowdon (I didn't see a single tera flying revaroom, but I probably should've, that would've been scary.) It's my only real form of speed control on this team, which can get scary, but we hope to mitigate that by just having a bunch of bulky physically bulky fuckers that can deal with the speed boosting sweepers.



I’ve since tried a variation of this team with over comfey now that It’s been banned, and I still like the team a lot. Trick room diancie is even more of a meme as speed control than comfey, so the team is probably a lot worse and may get 6-0’d by kilowattrel rain, but so it goes. The idea is that you can come in on iron jugulis, especially with sand, take what it wants to throw out and start setting up/attacking depending on the opponent. In all honesty, scarf Gardevoir is probably a better pick vs this slot for getting value out of trick and denting rain, but it makes the booster jugulis match up much harder

 

[Conflux123]

I'm new to RU, so I know nothing about the meta. Is rain good and can I pls have a sample rain team?

 

[FlamingoPokeman]

I decided to go through and update my VR from the beginning of the month now that two waves of bans have been implemented; all rows are ordered alphabetically and any mon in a grade can be shuffled without much argument from me. https://tiermaker.com/create/february-2024-sv-ru-16598396

 

[Feliburn]

There has been a lot of talk about Hyper Offense in the tier right now. The playstyle isn't that deep as we have some clear options to use, so I can understand why it's the most spammed style at the moment. However, as a big Bulky Offense advocate, I want to share my insights on BO as a style, and how it pairs up against current HO.

So the most common Hyper Offense consists of:

|

While some flavor picks include one of the following over one of the members:



I feel like at least certain Pokémon like Hoopa, Enamorus and Zapdos have a better role on different teams than this type of Hyper Offense, but they are still used, so I'll digress.

As you can see, quite a lot of different Pokémon to handle. I can understand why there are talks of people feeling overwhelmed in the builder due to the amount of threats listed above, and I do agree that there is probably a right course of action that involves banning one or many of these Pokémon. However, people saying HO is just an insta win seems like paitning the tier to be something that it isn't. Other players and I have been finding great success with BO options and, at some points, playing against HO feels like watching a movie, where you just do the same interactions and beat it.

I won't go into full detail of all the different BO options to use, but I'll put some of my favorite cores that I've used and how the interactions work against HO.

Starting with the main backbone of a BO team:

| | |

These are all the main options I've used in the past 2 weeks. These should be the standard options to go through in terms of rocker, steel type, flying defensive type, bulky water & Cyclizar.

Here are some lead interactions to think about:

Leads
vs
vs

From my experience, leading with Cyclizar vs an Azelf usually ends up with A) the Azelf dying to Knock Off + U-turn/Draco Meteor or B) Azelf instantly clicks Explosion and both die. Going through with this should mean that you have a member on your team that can handle Thundurus or Iron Jugulis, as Cyclizar is one of the better options vs those (I'll explain later).

Hippowdon vs Kleavor is a bit easier, as Kleavor will always click Stone Axe while you get your rocks up. Then it will just spam X-scissor until you KO it, which should be easier if you are using Rocky Helmet Hippowdon (which is a top tier item for it at the moment). I've learned that this is the best possible case for BO, as Hippowdon matches amazing against all the other HO members bar Iron Jugulis.

Next steps
vs

*If they send any other Pokémon vs Hippowdon, you spam Whirlwind, especially if it's an Iron Leaves.

Now this is a funny interaction, cause there are quite a few sequences to be played next. We are following the Kleavor path here, which means this Iron Jugulis will be at 76%. Iron Jugulis will almost always click Taunt here, as it does not want to be switched out by Whirlwind. You could either click Whirlwind, hoping that it's a Work Up Jugulis, or that it will predict a switch on the expected Taunt. Or you can go hard into your Cyclizar on the predicted Taunt. Regardless, this is one of the few turns where you'll have to play around it. Best case scenario is you have a Pokémon that looks completely useless in this matchup, so you can sack it vs Iron Jugulis. If you happen to be Stone Edge Hippowdon, then click that bad boy once to get Jugulis low enough to the point where the next interaction will be much easier.

vs

A dreaded interaction that relies on not getting Dark Pulse flinched or Hurricane confused. This is your best opportunity to click Rapid Spin vs Iron Jugulis, as you'll be able to remove the Stealth Rock and outspeed Jugulis the next turn. If you are Dragon Tail, then you must click it here. If you are Draco Meteor, then it's Rapid Spin into Draco Meteor. Depending on the Sand turn chip, as well as Cyclizar natures, you can end up KOing the Iron Jugulis here. At worst, you trade Cyclizar and leave it low enough to where going Hippowdon will KO it with Sand chip, so you can just switch out into something else, as you do not want to be out with a taunted Hippowdon vs any of the remaining Pokémon.

After this, it all depends on teambuilding options you used.

vs |

The very obnoxious physical breakers. I'll admit that Iron Leaves is the bigger issue here, due to the bulk, speed and coverage. Your Hippowdon should always be kept alive, mainly for the Maushold, as it will usually just die hitting it due to Rocky Helmet. If you have a Cobalion, then you can bop Maushold and Mimikyu incredibly easy. Bisharp does the same but needs to play around Drain Punch Mimikyu, and Encore Maushold if you try to Sucker Punch it. The funny thing about Cobalion and Bisharp vs Iron Leaves is that if you are using Iron Defense Body Press Cobalion, you can set up as Iron Leaves sets up as well, and you usually come on top (you can always save your Tera for this as well, preferably if you are Ghost Tera Cobalion), while Bisharp will always force Sucker Punch mindgames, and at worst, a Tera trade off between Bisharp and Iron Leaves. Hippowdon should always click Whirlwind against Iron Leaves, as Leaf Blade only does half to a mixed Hippowdon, whereas removing the speed boosting Booster Energy makes it so much easier to handle.

vs |

The option of the bulky flying types is also there. While Moltres at first glance looks great, it's actually useless in this scenario if the Iron Leaves is using Tera Fire, unless you are Brave Bird (still not good enough). The only way you should feel confident in this exchange is if you already traded Teras or at least some HP with Bisharp (I still think if you go the Cobalion route, you win that 1v1). Any other Tera gets wisped, and Iron Leaves is no longer that big of a threat. Salamence is both more and less reliable in this exchange. More because the typing + Intimidate is great at handling Leaves. Less because you might have to land a Hurricane. Regardless, you should be favored in this matchup if the Leaves already traded against the steel type used.

vs |

I personally run a Moltres that's faster than Revavroom, which means I can attempt to click Will-o-Wisp vs it before it can even click Shift Gear. You can also click Flamethrower twice, as Moltres is bulky enough to tank a +1 Gunk Shot. Cobalion using the ID set will always 1v1 this, as it is always OHKOd by a +2 Body Press after rocks. Mence will have to click Flamethrower twice (I use a spread that can tank 2 Adamant Gunk Shot at -1 from full), but getting it with Intimidate is enough to hinder what it can do to the team. Hippowdon is tricky because, if you are Whirlwind, and it's last mon Revavroom then you can't hit it at all. So always avoid the interaction unless you can safely pop the balloon. If the balloon is gone then Hippo should have no issues 2HKOing Revavroom, even after Tera (since Rev will be taking Helmet damage).

Apologies if it didn't make too much sense, but at the end of the day you have to gauge how you approach these interactions mentioned based on what the opponent is sending. You also need to gain enough experience to know how to handle the flavor picks for HOs. HOWEVER, I will also mention the BO flavor picks, as I limited these interactions around the same 4 slots.


I listed Rotom-Wash earlier, but I did not mention at all what its role is vs some of these mons. If you have a Rotom-Wash, your best attempt is to always get a Volt Switch off vs Iron Jugulis, as it can only click Dark Pulse vs you. If you have Thunder Wave over Will-o-Wisp, then by all means, go for it. At worst, Jugulis will click Taunt, and you'll have to Volt Switch the next turn anyway. This chip makes it easier for Cyclizar to finish the job. You also have the trusty Will-o-Wisp against Revavroom and Mimikyu.


A new Pokémon I've been trying out that I've really liked (s/o my hisui form for changing my mind on it). Fezandipiti has been a solid option for BO teams to handle opposing BO structures, but it also works as a solid Iron Jugulis check. With full HP, Earth Power will never 2HKO a Fezandipiti, while you do over half with uninvested Moonblast. Forcing the Tera on Jugulis usually makes the other slots easier to handle. It also works as a semi decent check to Thundurus, as unboosted Thunderbolt does 40 so you can chip it a bit.


These are really niche picks, but Foul Play just dismantles HO threats. Taunt Jugulis can easily destroy both of these options, but they still work as countermeasures against the physical breakers.


Choice Scarf Gengar is my favorite scarfer at the moment. It's faster than Iron Jugulis, it can use Trick to mess up both bulkier and faster teams. Naturally strong hitting STABs that are both super effective against Iron Leaves. I feel like it does a lot for almost all the teams I use it in.


If you can use it, then so can I... Iron Jugulis is a great anti offense mon, as it can only be outsped by +1 Maushold and +2 Revavroom. It can carry Taunt to prevent said speed boosting, and decently strong hitting STABs that can get rid of Iron Leaves.

Other honorary mentions that I'm too lazy to write about:

(great physical bulk)
(naturally bulky, good coverage that can poison stuff like Mimikyu, making it easier to handle)
(unaware and toxic, be wary of not being able to hit revavroom with a balloon)
(flip turn, rocks, roar. it can be great if played right)
(mold breaker gigaton hammer is great vs mmq, twave and encore do a lot vs set up sweepers)
(strong priority is always good)
(haze, ice beam, good bulk, scald burn, dragon tail, mirror coat for special attackers that aren't Iron Jugulis)

I feel like people stress too much on finding direct mons that resist specific type attacks, instead of focusing on mons that can blanket check a big portion of the tier. I really wanna make notice that I only focused on the same core of 4 pokemon on BO while doing this. There's plenty of room for innovation (I've been doing well on ladder using really low tier mons such as Wo-Chien and Orthworm, but I'm not calling either super viable yet), so I'm sure there's room to add on to the BO cores.

I also want to mention that if you faced a HO threat that you weren't ready for, then that's on the HO user for spicing it up and winning the matchup. Just how BO resorts to a variety of options to cover different matchups, HO can use the same variety of breakers to break past the common cores, and that's how a meta keeps evolving.

With this, I'm not saying the tier is perfectly fine. Like I mentioned in the beginning, I'm sure there's a course of action that includes banning specific pokemon to bring a true balance to the tier, as I agree that the HO list can be quite extensive (even if not all the mons are being used, they are still present on people's minds), but I do not believe that this tier is HO only. People just need to think more in the builder and in the games to not lose.

 

[LBN]

With this, I'm not saying the tier is perfectly fine. Like I mentioned in the beginning, I'm sure there's a course of action that includes banning specific pokemon to bring a true balance to the tier, as I agree that the HO list can be quite extensive (even if not all the mons are being used, they are still present on people's minds), but I do not believe that this tier is HO only. People just need to think more in the builder and in the games to not lose.

Imma bounce off this post for my own thoughts, and posting a rough map of what decisions / path is if we wanted to solve this issue.

Personally, I support 1 more QB slate this sunday. This would (ideally) be the last slate until shifts where tinkaton leaves and reuniclus shits on everybody immediately. As for who would be on the slate, I'll go over that here, in order of urgency and then I'll say whether I agree with nuking them or not.

Iron Jugulis I find to be the biggest problem with HO right now. It's speed tier is just high enough to where its faster than most scarfers you'd use, with only 3 exceptions; namely Gengar, and then tying with Infernape and Terrakion. This notably excludes other quality scarf candidates like Mienshao, Zarude, and other scarfers you could be inclined to use like Rotom-Wash or Gardevoir. That would leave priority, and the pickings aren't incredible there either. Slither wing is the standout, but others like A-Jet Crawdaunt, Mach Conk require significant chip damage and in the latter case would rely on Flame orb already being procced. Meanwhile Mimikyu and Bisharps priority are basically a non issue.

So that would leave taking the hits head on in alot of cases, lest we constrict building heavily. So that's where we come into probably the biggest issue. "Will I actually be able to move?" See Iron Jugulis has this thing called Midas's Touch, but instead of turning to gold you just fucking flinch. Feli already showed it but AV Cyclizar hates this shit because it's just 1 flinch away from being put extremely far into the backfoot off 1 30% chance, and this is exemplified by the current ladder tour, where everyone and everything hates you. Iron jugulis may not be an OHKO machine, but it is a 2HKO machine, and all it needs is a flinch proccing to take a mon out in most cases, and it's bulky enough to live alot of strong hits, even after rocks. For example Infernape doesn't actually even kill a Jugulis w anything besides Stone Edge after rocks. Max sp att draco from a mence is also a roll. Things like this make Jugulis a massive headache to deal with in the builder and the battle, and if we have any form of slate this weekend, which I think we absolutely should; this is the mon to go above all the others.

Verdict: Ban.

I've long since made clear my sheer disdain for this fucking Tesla car, so I won't go into much detail. But I'm also noticing more and more people are coming around on the idea that this mon is fucking silly. I've seen this echoed by a couple people, some of which on council, but yeah this mon is nuts. I've seen fools call it mid because it died to a reuniclus future sight, and that brings an interesting point for alot of the HO shitters. We can genuinely safely assume they'll be able to setup because alot of the time, they setup in front of whatever they choose to. That's the point of HO, pathing. Unless something goes horribly wrong, you have the upper hand and the point is stacking sweepers to overwhelm checks. I've seen this statement leveled against Maushold whom I'll get to later, but suffice to say I think Revavroom is the bigger issue between the two of them. It's checks are entirely situational, it's bulk is deceptively good thanks to high def and filter, making revenge killing it a near unreasonable task.

Verdict: Ban.

After these two, there's a sizeable gap between the entries in priorities. I think these two are the primary issues enabling just how effective HO is, and makes fighting it a massive headache for the builder to account for. Freeing up scarfers like Mienshao and Zarude for Iron leaves is a big help, and being able to load quagsires without being babyfood for the fucking Ford F150 would also help matters. After these ones, the levels of dire drop significantly, but there's one more pokemon I think can go in order to enable a less volatile meta.

Checking this pokemon is a pain in the ass. It's primarily handled by 3 pokemon. Tinkaton, Muk-Alola and Overqwil. Outside of that, it's about aggro calling what it clicks and taking 70 on a resisted hit to force it out by offensive threats. It's entry points are enabled quite well, Feliburn showcased an annoying lineup with cyclizar and fezandipiti BO, and that team highlights how easy it can be to get this thing in. And when it does, odds are you lose a pokemon. If it uses a gotcha tera correctly, a pokemon should die no questions asked just say goodbye to whatever failed to kill it it's over for them. Despite that, the pokemon I mentioned that "check" it defensively are all knock bait, and Tinkaton particularly is tasked with quite alot, ignoring it being Fire punch bait. The only reason it seems fine as of right now in RULT is chalk full of HO and that's not exactly Hoopa-U's strong suit. I emplore yall to try building a BO or balance and make it actually competent at handling this thing, or use it and see Hoopa-U mauls balance like Pitbulls mauls 5 year old kids. In my eyes, this would be that 3rd ban. Anything else would simply not be required imo, but cases can be made for them, and I'll give those slightly less attention. I think it's effect on bulkier teams is extremely volatile and it's just too good of a nuke to let stay in the tier much longer.

Verdict: Ban, but not 100% required right now.

The Royal Rat Vanguard have been getting hotly contested in RU cord lately, with both sides at opposites sides. Unfortunately, I think both sides are wrong. This pokemon is nonsense, yes. It's incredibly lame to fight and it forces tera ghost / steel on alot of bullshit that wouldn't want to run it. And the argument that "Just use a helmet mon lol" is kinda bad because honestly? Only 5-6 pokemon really make good use of helmet without wanting to use other shit. Hippowdon, Chesnaught, Cobalion, Empoleon, Vileplume and Slowbro. Everything else desperately wants to use other shit. You can maybe argue for Reuniclus on this list, but I find it's poor at switching into the physical clickers overall so I don't recommend it right now. This is a solid list, but I also don't find myself using these on every team aside from maybe big Hippo. Chesnaught and Cobalion are a part of the hotly contested fighting type slot, and while they do different things I'd sooner lean on other options when I can. Terrak, Infernape, Mienshao, H-Lilligant, Slither Wing, Zapdos-G and Conkeldurr is ALOT of quality you'd want to be able to load. thankfully, most of these can help deal with the Royal Rat Authority, but Tera ghost thwarts that badly, which gets into another point.

"The Rat King Covenant just CAN'T setup that safely!" Sorry this is cap for the most part. Between Tera Ghost + Encore, it can find multiple chances to setup if it's proactive enough. It also has alot of variety if your willing to abandon some valuable tools to snipe checks. Bisharp is low kick food, and Protective Pads is an option to bypass the Helmet + Moltres counterplay option in exchange for giving your soul to the devil and risking 90%s on Pop Bomb. Basically a luck gamble, but the rewards are palpable enough to be worth mentioning, saying otherwise is just not being honest with yourself. Now would I ban the denizens of Grave of Saints? ..No, I wouldn't. Personally I find that it's a pain in the ass, but it's bullshit is primarily compounded by other issues in the tier, namely the effects Jugulis and Car have. I think when the meta becomes less centralized the variety from that will lead to them being less obnoxious.

Verdict: Do not Ban, but do slate it. Atleast give the impression that it's under scrutiny even if you disagree.

I've seen hate for this thing, and honestly I get it. It's a very good piece on HO and functions like a 2nd Jugulis in how you'd use it. On the flip side though, I think it'd get much more manageable with Jugulis gone. Remember the mentions of Mienshao and Zarude? Having these two as options to offensively check this thing would be huge in shutting it down. Sure it can just tera and ohko whatever comes into the followup SD into CC, but you have to burn tera for that when previously that interaction didn't even exist. The rise of other things like Glowbro would also help matters. It's like Maushold where I think it's a victim of the current meta problems caused by something else, but I can see this pokemon being a problem still later on. Keep it on the watchlist, but I don't think it's the play to ban it.

Verdict: DNB, but keep eyes on it.

Iron Jugulis at home here is a weird case. On one hand, I find it's extremely annoying with it's swaths of coverage, and reminds me alot of what Thundy-I did to us last gen. It's coverage is practically unending and it's ability to obliterate what it chooses pretty much is a pain to handle. However, it suffers from 4MSS more than any mon in the tier, wants like 9 things and can only pick 4. Gknot, Tbolt, Psychic, Sludge wave/bomb, Focus Blast, Volt/U-turn, Agility, NP, Knock and Tera Blast are all things it wants to run. I find it extremely volatile, but I also don't think I can confidently say it's worth banning right now. I just haven't seen it pull enough stupidity, and cyclizar can help stifle it nicely, Focus Blast be damned. It's probably broken outside the context of RULT, but i'm looking at a potential 2nd act W for RU ssnl in a row so I can't act like i'm experienced outside of there for the meta.

Verdict: DNB, but keep eyes.

Last but not least, this fucker. I think this thing is a pain in the ass, it's annoying, SV demon mew is for bad people with criminal charges of child abuse to their name and other forms of inhumane torture. ...However we have Tinkaton =DD.. For 2 more weeks. With UU prospected to be stealing Slowking and Tinkaton next month, the liklihood of Mew/Reuniclus being a problem is extremely high. Personally, I'd rather wait for the upcoming shifts to be fully vindicated in nuking this shitstain of a pokemon. Personally, I also haven't seen enough of it as i've been practicing Self Care by not laddering the worst tournament on the fucking website.

Verdict: DNB but keep eyes.

These are everything I'd suggest slating. Other pokemon like Necrozma, Reuni, Gyarados/Feraligatr, Zapdos-G and Gengar are fine for now, or are annoying but we can focus on other targets. I fully expect this not to be the end of our issues, but sniping Iron Jugulis, Revavroom, and Hoopa-U out of commission would do loads for the tiers health, and I personally vouch for doing so. After this slate, hopefully, we can phase out QB slates in favor of a suspect focus, but I'd hold off since shifts are very likely to showcase larger issues.

 

[fluff!!]

I'll give my thoughts on the tier after playing around 50 games with mostly BO/Balanced teams and reading through this thread. (No prior experience with RU)

See, I would have enjoyed my experience a lot if it wasn't for 2 major problems.
I'm generally anti-ban, and prefer to let the metagame find solutions to problems before swinging the ban hammer left and right, hence why I'm opposed to a weather rock suspect for now, for instance.

However, where I draw the line is when some of the strongest threats can also randomly get past their "counters" on a coinflip. This is why I, like many others in this thread, want action to be taken on Iron Jugulis and Revavroom.



Iron Jugulis @ Booster Energy / Choice Specs / HDB
Ability: Quark Drive
Tera Type: Dark/Flying/Ground/Steel/Fire/Water
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Dark Pulse
- Hurricane / Air Slash
- Earth Power / Fire Blast / Flash Cannon / Hydro Pump / Focus Blast / Charge Beam / Work Up / Taunt
- Earth Power / Fire Blast / Flash Cannon / Hydro Pump / Focus Blast / Charge Beam / Work Up / Taunt / U-turn

let's get straight to the point: Can pick and choose its checks and counters, and most importantly, if it picked the wrong moves, it's so fast and 2HKO so much stuff you can kinda just bank on Dark Pulse flinches to break through anything.

rant

Counting on Mamo Ice Shard or Slither Wing First Impression to RK? Tera Steel and Fire easily tanks those and kills back with Flash Cannon/Hurricane.
Counting on Tinkaton or Cobalion to tank any hit and T-wave/hit back hard (not kill btw)? Taunt + Tera Fire Fire Blast and it's over.
Counting on Bellibolt to tank something and hit back with a boosted Parabollic Charge? Tera Ground Earth Power into bye-bye.
Your answer that ended up not being an answer at all folded and now you have to Roar it away with Hippo to get rid of the Speed Booster? Better not get flinched by Dark Pulse...
Only Scarf Gengar can outspeed this demon, but then only T-bolt can kill after rocks and it's a roll. Also loses to Tera Ground btw. Your best shot is Chansey but then you must play Stall, which should never be the only answer.

There is no single reliable way of handling this thing and it's always 1 dark pulse flinch away from 6-0ing anything that isn't Chansey Stall. Maybe, just maybe it wouldn't be that bad if the tier was fatter, but as it stands right now, it's just way too much.



Revavroom @ Lum Berry / Air Balloon
Ability: Filter
Tera Type: Ground
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant / Jolly Nature
- Shift Gear
- Iron Head
- Gunk Shot
- High Horsepower

Not as ludicrous as Jugulis but it's just another HO mon that can outspeed absolutely everything in 1 turn and can just flinch its way through its counters. Defensive Swampert is the only Pokemon I could call a true counter to this thing, as it resists both STABs and has Ground STAB to threaten back. Helmet Hippowdon is close to achieving true counter status but if Reva is Balloon, you need to hit it twice to kill it and you're always 1 Iron Head flinch away from losing the game. Slowbro can also do similarly but Flamethrower is not even a guaranteed 2HKO and T-wave/Scald burn is nullified by Lum Berry. Meanwhile Gunk Shot cleanly 2HKOs at +1. Anyway, 1 counter is not enough, ban Reva.

 

[Forest Guardian]

So, following discussions in the discord, I have finally decided to post my thoughts on Jugulis and the car which should generally echo with what LBN and the post above me has said.

: I have grown to despise this thing. It's a fixture on hyper offense and just makes things difficult for everyone. It's difficult to out-offense as it is blitzing fast with base 108 speed and the speed boost from . The only scarfer that outspeeds it is , a great scarfer sure but there are scarfers I would LOVE to use like , , and others. There is also the problem that Jugulis is quite fat for an offensive mon. Killing it with priority is very difficult AND even if u do manage to hit it with an attack, say a sludge wave from Gengar, u don't fucking kill. All of this is without factoring in Terastallization AND the fact you can be turned immobile 20% of the time. The former works beautifully with the latter in giving it even more opportunity to flinch the lights out of you. Sure it has it's so-called checks like Assault Vest users and , , , and Tera Fairy , and (don't know why you would use the latter two) but they all get blasted by something or the other. All of them (bar Blissey) are one or two flinches away from being Hurricane'd. Blissey gets taunted, cyclizar can get focus blasted, tinkaton can be earth powered and reun, king and the rotom forms have to burn tera. Spdef hippowdon (something I have seen pop up) can also just be taunted and it's fucked or you can take the more immediate was and hydro pump it away. Sure you can't run all of these moves on it for it needs Dark Pulse and Earth Power and then u need to fit taunt, work up (that's another option btw), fire blast, hydro pump, focus blast and hurricane. But most of these mons are not run in conjunction with one another thus making it easier for the jugulis user to pick and choose what it wants to screw over in the match. To summarise this, Jugs is incredibly fast, quiet strong and bulky and is one dark pulse flinch away from really just running away with the games.
Thus I believe Jugulis should be BANNED.

: This doesn't need an introduction and I am not gonna say much about it cuz talking about me makes me angry (I have no idea how it survived in ru for almost a year). It comes in, it clicks shift gear, it floats in the air with a fucking balloon (don't ask me how), it clicks moves, it (just like jugs) flinches you and it wins. Reliable answers to it are far from available. Sure , and sound like great checks until it uses tera grass tera blast cuz yeah that's also something it can do. Also it NOT running the set doesn't mean it CAN'T run it. Sure u have to sacrifice a move slot but it can be worth it since without these mons most teams are helpless against the car. BAN this too but if you are not doing that, atleast give it a suspect test.

 

[C0nfiden1 0yster]

Im really baffled about how Thundy-T has dodged two slates and has continued to be overlooked. The most common sentiment has been that it is
"not pressing enough" or "bigger fish to fry" and I believe these arguments to be complete nonsense.

LBN mentioned a 4MMS situation with Thundy-T but I believe that this pokemon is quite the opposite of that situation.
Thundurus-Therian @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Volt Absorb
Tera Type: Flying
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Nasty Plot
- Thunderbolt
- Grass Knot
- Tera Blast
This set its incredibly effective at breaking teams and it covers every possible option of dealing with it upon terrastilization. It obviously does fantastic into more offensive teams as its 101 base speed outpaces popular HO options Revavroom, Mimikyu and more, and any free switch its able to get against these teams results in one less pokemon on the opposing team. Against fatter teams there very few checks to this set, and upon terastillization, the very few turns to none, bar Calm Mind Blissey. Electric, Grass, and Flying coverage is unwallable; quite literally nothing viable within the metagame can handle this combination of moves. This pokemon isn't even difficult to get into the battlefield either as its typing is excellent in conjunction with its ability and its bulk is respectable for what a threat it is. Because of these attributes, if played with competency, it is reasonable for this pokemon to claim one to two pokemon without fail at least against slower match-ups.

And that is just the set I put above. There are other sets, while I believe them to be suboptimal, which dramatically change whatever limited counterplay is viable. If it runs Focus Blast, it doesn't even need to tera to kill Cyclizar. If it runs Sludge Wave it doesn't need tera to kill Iron Leaves and Grass types. It can run U-turn and Volt Switch, which I'm not really sure why one would do that instead of clicking the right button and claiming a kill, or Knock Off to make even more progress. Thundy doesn't need all of these moves to be effective, but the fact that it can run these options, and people more often than not do prefer these options, proves that it does not have 4MSS as previously suggested.

The reason why it gets overlooked is because it doesn't clean like Iron Jug and Revavroom do. This undoubtedly has an effect on peoples perception of whether a pokemon is broken or not, as you can see above as the previous 3 posts are pushing for bans on these two cleaners. More interestingly, Revavroom is being argued for a ban despite it never being banworthy in the previous metagames; it's a testament to how volatile the metagame is and how useful a move like Shift Gear is for its profile. Revavroom should not be banned or even slated because it was not broken in previous metagames which largely consisted of the same pokemon. Options of dealing with Revavroom are still there like they were from day 1 of SV RU and, it is merely performing more consistently now due to a greater consistency of offense which struggles to deal with Revavroom.

Thundy-T is actually what enables pokemon like Revavroom and Iron Jug better than any other pokemon in the tier. In fact, it targets really well Iron Jugulis' supposed checks and Revavrooms checks. It trades with AV Cyclizar and overwhelms Tinkaton for Iron Jug, and it massacres Hippodown and Slowbro, among other physical walls for Revavroom. Not to mention Thundy-T's immunities line up incredibly well as its immune to ground attacks for Revavroom and immune to electric attacks for Iron Jug, making the two all that much harder to play around. The popular Bice HO sample team makes use of this quite well and I personally have a few teams that also lay into this aspect.

To conclude this banafesto, Thundy-T should be banned and how its been able to dodge the last two slates for random shit like Reuniclus and Necrozma is a miracle. There are other pokemon that should definitely be banned like Iron Jugulis, Mew and Hoopa, and there are some looming threats that might/will become problematic like Suicune and Okidogi, but those bans cannot be justified at the current moment.

 

[LBN]

More interestingly, Revavroom is being argued for a ban despite it never being banworthy in the previous metagames; it's a testament to how volatile the metagame is and how useful a move like Shift Gear is for its profile. Revavroom should not be banned or even slated because it was not broken in previous metagames which largely consisted of the same pokemon. Options of dealing with Revavroom are still there like they were from day 1 of SV RU and, it is merely performing more consistently now due to a greater consistency of offense which struggles to deal with Revavroom.

See, I agree with the Thundurus-T portion, but this part right here is straight nonsense and here's why. Remember when we freed Hoopa-U and Mew for the reasons of "We got like 59 new pokemon it's a brand new meta what are we complaining about?" Yeah where did that go. The tier is fundamentally extremely different than when Rev was going bananas. Lets just go over some changes the tier has had.

Mudsdale Gone the way of the dinosaurs. Krookodile is off somewhere fun I'm sure. Quagsire was like top 5 last month. Meta was extremely fatty last month. Remember when rotom-heat existed yeah me neither. Slowbro got hit by a freight train where did he go huh. Magnezone went from being discussed in a survey to being abducted by a Nigerian prince and he NEEDS OUR HELP.

You get the picture yeah? Thats just the mons that have fallen off, we got shit like Infernape, Salamence, Iron Jug back, leaves, we got Kingdra rains, Slowking, Hippowdon. The tier is fundamentally different from the ground up "largely consisted of the same pokemon" maybe 12 pokemon who were in the upper rung are actually still there. The meta is entirely changed from what it was before, acting like it's the same NOW just so we can't slate Revavroom when we freed Hoopa-U and Mew for it being a different meta is just lying to ourselves. The options exist sure, Bronzong and Quagsire still exist. But the latter is entirely dependent on your other mons being able to handle a shifted rev to pop the balloon. Incin and Moltres need to be extremely healthy and also assume its not like tera fire (tera ground is not mandatory!!!), on the wisp. Stuff like this also assumes Wisp actually hits, cuz fire move from the former is not gonna kill a Filter Revavroom. If you think the mon isn't broken thats fine but atleast give good reasoning as to why it's balanced apart from "it gives me the ick to slate a mon we've had all gen" ignoring its been given 2 quality coverage buffs lmao

 

[FlamingoPokeman]

See, I agree with the Thundurus-T portion, but this part right here is straight nonsense and here's why. Remember when we freed Hoopa-U and Mew for the reasons of "We got like 59 new pokemon it's a brand new meta what are we complaining about?" Yeah where did that go. The tier is fundamentally extremely different than when Rev was going bananas. Lets just go over some changes the tier has had.

Mudsdale Gone the way of the dinosaurs. Krookodile is off somewhere fun I'm sure. Quagsire was like top 5 last month. Meta was extremely fatty last month. Remember when rotom-heat existed yeah me neither. Slowbro got hit by a freight train where did he go huh. Magnezone went from being discussed in a survey to being abducted by a Nigerian prince and he NEEDS OUR HELP.

You get the picture yeah? Thats just the mons that have fallen off, we got shit like Infernape, Salamence, Iron Jug back, leaves, we got Kingdra rains, Slowking, Hippowdon. The tier is fundamentally different from the ground up "largely consisted of the same pokemon" maybe 12 pokemon who were in the upper rung are actually still there. The meta is entirely changed from what it was before, acting like it's the same NOW just so we can't slate Revavroom when we freed Hoopa-U and Mew for it being a different meta is just lying to ourselves. The options exist sure, Bronzong and Quagsire still exist. But the latter is entirely dependent on your other mons being able to handle a shifted rev to pop the balloon. Incin and Moltres need to be extremely healthy and also assume its not like tera fire (tera ground is not mandatory!!!), on the wisp. Stuff like this also assumes Wisp actually hits, cuz fire move from the former is not gonna kill a Filter Revavroom. If you think the mon isn't broken thats fine but atleast give good reasoning as to why it's balanced apart from "it gives me the ick to slate a mon we've had all gen" ignoring its been given 2 quality coverage buffs lmao

You're not about to say "Will-O may not hit so don't bank on that!!!" when your whole argument with Rev is "it flinches 30% of the time!!!".

Revavroom is simply below a handful of things on the pecking list of what's wrong with this meta; sure, it's enabled greatly by some of the previous defensive checks not really existing anymore and by some of the more egregious breakers often being run with Rev, but it's still not the problem you're making it out to be.
Revavroom requires a turn to setup, runs a STAB and coverage move with inaccuracy issues, and generally gets beaten by a handful of common meta walls like Hippowdon, Rotom-Heat (yes, it still exists, Washtom isn't THAT much better) and Quagsire (yes, it still exists). You also really only ever see one set with one item which makes preview valuable in stopping the potential shenanigans it can get up to.

Edit: I'll add that the amount of HO on the ladder is pretty indicative of an unhealthy tier, especially with RULT occurring, but Revavroom remains NOT the issue here. It's also funny seeing the amount of hypocrisy when people clamor for bans publicly before proceeding to use the stuff they consider 'unfun' on their teams (not specifically LBN here but a lot of people in Discord / Room talking about 'x' being broken but loading it every game...)

 

[LBN]

You're not about to say "Will-O may not hit so don't bank on that!!!" when your whole argument with Rev is "it flinches 30% of the time!!!".

Revavroom is simply below a handful of things on the pecking list of what's wrong with this meta; sure, it's enabled greatly by some of the previous defensive checks not really existing anymore and by some of the more egregious breakers often being run with Rev, but it's still not the problem you're making it out to be.
Revavroom requires a turn to setup, runs a STAB and coverage move with inaccuracy issues, and generally gets beaten by a handful of common meta walls like Hippowdon, Rotom-Heat (yes, it still exists, Washtom isn't THAT much better) and Quagsire (yes, it still exists). You also really only ever see one set with one item which makes preview valuable in stopping the potential shenanigans it can get up to.

Edit: I'll add that the amount of HO on the ladder is pretty indicative of an unhealthy tier, especially with RULT occurring, but Revavroom remains NOT the issue here. It's also funny seeing the amount of hypocrisy when people clamor for bans publicly before proceeding to use the stuff they consider 'unfun' on their teams (not specifically LBN here but a lot of people in Discord / Room talking about 'x' being broken but loading it every game...

"My whole argument" you know damn well that ain't been the case. Retreading previous comments on revavroom between here and discord. Firstly, Quagsire REQUIRES the balloon popped or it's either a garbage set or losing 1v1. And that means having a secondary check to it in the back that can snack a hit, which isn't a guarantee. Hippo relies on whirlwinding it out which is just delaying the issue, and more often than not the mon coming in mauls Hippo post whirl, like Toise, Leaves or Jugulis. Which is why I don't consider Quagsire a reliable counter because it just isnt that's just an objective statement. Post balloon pop sure, but thats a big if.

Secondly, "You're whole argument with rev is it flinches!" Ignoring your complete disregard to actually read anything I've actually said, I'll put it more bluntly so people can actually understand it.
Revavroom does not need luck to win, it just wins a lot more from lucking. Often.
Revavroom and HO in general is entirely structured around getting the wincons infront of what they want to be infront of, and there's alot of pokemon that fill the criteria for Revavroom. Iron Leaves, (without an SD), Muk-alola, Mamoswine, BB locked Zapdos-G, Kleavor, Fezandipiti is either taunting or dying, Mimikyu post disguise pop, Zarude, Cyclizar etc. There's alot, and alot of these are surprise surprise, tasked with other mons on HO, like Cyclizar for Jugulis. More often than not, a Revavroom WILL be able to setup, no 2 ways about it. Acting like "it needs a turn to setup" is a valid argument when it wins alot after the fact is just missing the point entirely.

"It only ever runs one set" would be a valid argument if that actually mattered. Revavroom can be a one trick pony all it wants, but if it keeps being able to win when you KNOW what it does and will do kinda nullifies that benefit a bit. Sure it's not a hoopa but it doesn't matter when it bulldozes through your teams with a good amount of consistency. I can know something is coming but that doesn't mean I can actually do shit about it, that's just how that works. It's why loading sample rain in USM OU is viable sometimes. They could literally HAVE the team in their builder but doesn't actually change a damn thing if it can't be stopped lmao. Ash gren has 1 maybe 2 sets total in USM OU and what do you know its A+ funny how that works.

Lastly, "It's also funny seeing the amount of hypocrisy when people clamor for bans publicly before proceeding to use the stuff they consider 'unfun' on their teams" ..Me when I want to win on ladder? like damn just cuz somethin is broken or unfun does not stop me from loading it. I can hate stall all I want but put me against billyjimmy555 in ADV ubers and that sunstall is marching in like a lion. This "hypocrisy" doesn't actually exist lmao. If ANYTHING us using it and benefiting from it and STILL calling it stupid is a testament to yknow, it being stupid. Also no, rotom-heat is not common.

 

[fluff!!]

Revavroom requires a turn to setup, runs a STAB and coverage move with inaccuracy issues, and generally gets beaten by a handful of common meta walls like Hippowdon, Rotom-Heat (yes, it still exists, Washtom isn't THAT much better) and Quagsire (yes, it still exists). You also really only ever see one set with one item which makes preview valuable in stopping the potential shenanigans it can get up to.

Gunk Shot does have inaccuracy issues but by that extent doesn't that mean that you can just win through luck, which is the issue with Revavroom?
Hippowdon is hardly a counter, especially if Rev is in a HO team. Balloon makes it so you can't get flinched a single time else Hippo dies and you lose. Rotom-H takes min 70% on +1 Gunk Shot if you're 252/252+ which you should never be on rotom, so you better keep that Rotom at 100% health at all times. Also, it loses to Tera Fire. Quag is a Stall only mon. If your only counter is Quag, then it is a very much a problem. see: Zacian-Crowned.
Having 1 broken set is enough to warrant a ban. Arch isn't getting banned in OU because of its tank set, it's only getting banned because of Arch Rain.

It's also funny seeing the amount of hypocrisy when people clamor for bans publicly before proceeding to use the stuff they consider 'unfun' on their teams

How, in any universe, is it hypocrisy to play something that you deem broken/unfun. Was it really necessary to end your post on that note ?