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We are always gonna discuss rocks every gen, they changed every single thing. But, I'm not in the mood for rocks, so I won't give my 2 cents today, one thing I'm gonna say tho is that Gholdengo is making this conversation worse, and I don't need to explain it
Moving on topics
Honestly, I want somebody who can sell me on Quaquaval, it gets hard walled by most defensive mons, requires a million turns to set up, and it needs covert cloak or becomes garganacl food, can sweep but needs too much support, can remove hazards but gets walled by gholdengo, it doesn't really do anything, fuck, I have had more success with Toxicroak than Quaquaval on Rain, that's how bad this thing is
I can't sell you on that duck. Duck is terrible. I use it ONLY as a utility Pokemon, and that's it. Even then, it stretches my team thin due to how frail it is... Easily the worst of the 3 starters this gen.
Garganacl is not a priority right now with the metagame being flipped on its head recently. The timing of everything has certainly worked against it with the recent releases, too. If you go through the timeline of SV OU thus far, it’s been impossible to fit another suspect in. I can see this changing in the future if Home is later rather than sooner though. It really depends on timing. I do not personally find Garganacl to be pressing either as there is a growing list of methods to make it a liability, but it still can be straining to other teams and should remain in the discussion.
Walking Wake is rightfully our focus atm. The metagame is still settling, but it’s undeniably the center of attention. It is likely that the council will conduct a vote as to if we do not act, suspect, or quickban. I do not have a specific date or expected outcome as it’s raw, but expect more in the near future I’d say. My guess is that if anything happens, it (and Garg) will start OU after Home regardless, but I have no guess as to what’s going to happen before Home.
On Garg: Honestly, Garg feels like the "You lose in the builder" kind of ""threat"". It isn't necessarily a problem outright, but if you don't have something to immediately answer it, Garg makes your life a living hell. I was reminded of this during my testing of a FlamiGOD team last night, and just... Oh god. It was so much suffering to try and play around it without my poor slug boi. ; A;
On Wake: Wake honestly is such a riot right now. It's a total powerhouse that could push Sun into a very great spot. By itself, it's still decent. Speed tier is kinda meh without Booster or Scarf (and Booster is kinda bad on the majority of paradox mons anyway), but its power output is scary as hell.
Why would there be? Hazard stack is somewhat oppressive but there are many clear counters to the playstyle (Rapid Spin, Mortal Spin, Defog, Magic Bounce, etc.)
Why would there be? Hazard stack is somewhat oppressive but there are many clear counters to the playstyle (Rapid Spin, Mortal Spin, Defog, Magic Bounce, etc.)
Bad news :/
Although we gathered enough players and mods to create a private room where we could have non-terra tournaments we were denied.
More info on a post on my profile, response and my rebuttal that has not been answered.
Anyway.
Just played some games.
I've been top 10, if not top 5, on the ladder for about a week now.
This meta is easy and broken so that's not saying much, I know.
Today I went on a tilt that started with:
First game, I mapped out my late game win and executed it.
Later on, I played the same team, not sure if some YT team or what but same mons.
Mapped out a similar win condition.
This time, however, opp had a different terra than the previous player, and won.
After that I just clicked buttons for a few more games and came here to give one final attempt at a logical conclusion, after my solution was outright denied.
When we map out our win conditions and prerequisites need to secure a victory, we have to account for various factors.
Terra adds too much variance.
A player can't be expected to plan for both Normal and Fire Dragonite.
A player can't be expected to plan for both Ground, Ice, Grass, etc Volcarona.
A player can't be expected to plan for both Fairy, Flying, Dark Kingambit
Can they? Technically on some level, if you really want to mental gymnastics an argument and reach for straws.
But even then, should they? No.
It's Schrodinger's Pokemon.
At one point in the game, your opponent might as well have 7-9 mons until revealed.
This is literally what regional forms are, often the same stats and similar design of the mon, the only thing that's changed is the typing and ability.
This makes it a new pokemon. Get it?
You can change your pokemon into another mon during a turn.
Read that again.
If I told someone in gen 6 or 7 that you could change your pokemon into another mon during a turn, they would laugh and say that's the stupidest thing they ever heard.
I was talking to a co-worker just now as I'm writing this and she wanted to know what it was all about.
I said lets play rock-paper-scissors.
She chose scissors and I chose paper, then I switched it to rock.
She said that's stupid, and I said yeah.
Very early into the terra debate, someone said, "we will never get a balanced meta, just constant tech chasing."
We are still, and will continue to see, new terra sets to counter other terra sets, and vice versa.
The rise of terra fire Dragonite is the current example.
And then we have terras that circle back around, such as terra flying King.
It's just a constant cycle of variance.
Variance alone is a major issue, but the power Terra adds makes great OU mons broken.
But we know that, these arguments have been said before.
Something I realized lately was that even goofy ass GameFreak knew Hidden Power was stupid af.
They knew that when designing mons, its asinine to give them access to a move of any typing.
Isn't that funny...
Gen 9, if played without the gimmick, has potential to be the greatest metagame of OU 6v6 singles.
We are actively being robbed of a great meta.
The skill gap is insane as well, average players get dusted when it comes to terra mind games, or not playing enough to know all the current techs, or just simply being overloaded with variance information.
These are the options left with after our valid application for a private room was denied.
Options:
1) Create a discord and gather players who want to play actual pokemon without the mechanic intended to make 9yo SV players go "Wow! Cool!"
2) Wait and pray for another terra suspect, but my open stance on this is, and no offense, the average players aren't knowledgeable to know how detrimental this mechanic is to a balanced meta, and thus terra will never be fully banned, at least by popular vote.
3) Simply play for fun using memes. Because that's all we're really doing right now. A terra meta inherently can not be a serious meta.
4) Appeal to the council. This is the council that gave no votes on QB Pao, which culminated to those same members voting on it's ban. I say that as an illustration, because at one point I was also on the fence about Pao. With hindsight though, it was broken the entire time. So, this is an illustration that given enough time, broken things become obvious. If there are members of our council that in March 2023 still think Terra is fine, then we have the wrong people in charge.
I gathered a list of 40+ players who were interested in the non-terra private room, including prominent mods and OU room owner.
I gathered this list within a day and a half.
There is a massive alienation of players who want to play a non-terra meta.
More and more players are considering themselves anti-terra.
Anyone who actually plays the meta, and understands the meta, can not reasonably argue that terra makes this meta more competitive and balanced.
If they say it does, then as I said, they don't understand what a balanced and competitive meta is.
I know council is busy, especially the ones with YT channels, and they are volunteers after all- I don't want to baffle any of them by accusing them of lack of transparency, but our growing community needs something concrete soon.
I tried helping them with the application for a private non-terra room, but as stated in my opening, it was denied.
So the ball is back in the council's court.
We either need a separate ladder, a private room, or another terra suspect.
The complete disregard for us as players is getting egregious.
The complete disregard for the integrity of OU 6v6 singles as a game and allowing this unprecedented mechanic to flip everything we know about win-conditions, late-game mapping, and team building on it's head is beyond egregious at this point.
Terra should not be the norm.
Terra players should be on this forum crying instead of me, they should be the ones begging for a private room.
I'm asking for an immediate council vote on Terra.
or I'm asking for an immediate suspect test on Terra with a 88gxe minimum.
I won't get either. I know.
I'm putting it here in black and white so that in 5+ years we look back at how stupid terra was and how it ruined a generation, there was at least one player who tried everything they could to save it.
I have literally never had a Roaring Moon -- that wasn't Scarf or DD -- outrun my Walking Wake in the Sun. They've always been standard Max Atk Band with Proto Atk. Then they just sort of drop to Draco.
I get where you are coming from, but max sp. Atk specs makes for a 375 sp atk stat, which isn’t that bad for against more or less fast sweepers, like meowscarada, iron valiant and cinderace. Not Every Pokémon get 130 base stat. + people most likely expect a belly drum set, so you got the factor of surprise
Bad news :/
Although we gathered enough players and mods to create a private room where we could have non-terra tournaments we were denied.
More info on a post on my profile, response and my rebuttal that has not been answered.
Anyway.
Just played some games.
I've been top 10, if not top 5, on the ladder for about a week now.
This meta is easy and broken so that's not saying much, I know.
Today I went on a tilt that started with:
First game, I mapped out my late game win and executed it.
Later on, I played the same team, not sure if some YT team or what but same mons.
Mapped out a similar win condition.
This time, however, opp had a different terra than the previous player, and won.
After that I just clicked buttons for a few more games and came here to give one final attempt at a logical conclusion, after my solution was outright denied.
When we map out our win conditions and prerequisites need to secure a victory, we have to account for various factors.
Terra adds too much variance.
A player can't be expected to plan for both Normal and Fire Dragonite.
A player can't be expected to plan for both Ground, Ice, Grass, etc Volcarona.
A player can't be expected to plan for both Fairy, Flying, Dark Kingambit
Can they? Technically on some level, if you really want to mental gymnastics an argument and reach for straws.
But even then, should they? No.
It's Schrodinger's Pokemon.
At one point in the game, your opponent might as well have 7-9 mons until revealed.
This is literally what regional forms are, often the same stats and similar design of the mon, the only thing that's changed is the typing and ability.
This makes it a new pokemon. Get it?
You can change your pokemon into another mon during a turn.
Read that again.
If I told someone in gen 6 or 7 that you could change your pokemon into another mon during a turn, they would laugh and say that's the stupidest thing they ever heard.
I was talking to a co-worker just now as I'm writing this and she wanted to know what it was all about.
I said lets play rock-paper-scissors.
She chose scissors and I chose paper, then I switched it to rock.
She said that's stupid, and I said yeah.
Very early into the terra debate, someone said, "we will never get a balanced meta, just constant tech chasing."
We are still, and will continue to see, new terra sets to counter other terra sets, and vice versa.
The rise of terra fire Dragonite is the current example.
And then we have terras that circle back around, such as terra flying King.
It's just a constant cycle of variance.
Variance alone is a major issue, but the power Terra adds makes great OU mons broken.
But we know that, these arguments have been said before.
Something I realized lately was that even goofy ass GameFreak knew Hidden Power was stupid af.
They knew that when designing mons, its asinine to give them access to a move of any typing.
Isn't that funny...
Gen 9, if played without the gimmick, has potential to be the greatest metagame of OU 6v6 singles.
We are actively being robbed of a great meta.
The skill gap is insane as well, average players get dusted when it comes to terra mind games, or not playing enough to know all the current techs, or just simply being overloaded with variance information.
These are the options left with after our valid application for a private room was denied.
Options:
1) Create a discord and gather players who want to play actual pokemon without the mechanic intended to make 9yo SV players go "Wow! Cool!"
2) Wait and pray for another terra suspect, but my open stance on this is, and no offense, the average players aren't knowledgeable to know how detrimental this mechanic is to a balanced meta, and thus terra will never be fully banned, at least by popular vote.
3) Simply play for fun using memes. Because that's all we're really doing right now. A terra meta inherently can not be a serious meta.
4) Appeal to the council. This is the council that gave no votes on QB Pao, which culminated to those same members voting on it's ban. I say that as an illustration, because at one point I was also on the fence about Pao. With hindsight though, it was broken the entire time. So, this is an illustration that given enough time, broken things become obvious. If there are members of our council that in March 2023 still think Terra is fine, then we have the wrong people in charge.
I gathered a list of 40+ players who were interested in the non-terra private room, including prominent mods and OU room owner.
I gathered this list within a day and a half.
There is a massive alienation of players who want to play a non-terra meta.
More and more players are considering themselves anti-terra.
Anyone who actually plays the meta, and understands the meta, can not reasonably argue that terra makes this meta more competitive and balanced.
If they say it does, then as I said, they don't understand what a balanced and competitive meta is.
I know council is busy, especially the ones with YT channels, and they are volunteers after all- I don't want to baffle any of them by accusing them of lack of transparency, but our growing community needs something concrete soon.
I tried helping them with the application for a private non-terra room, but as stated in my opening, it was denied.
So the ball is back in the council's court.
We either need a separate ladder, a private room, or another terra suspect.
The complete disregard for us as players is getting egregious.
The complete disregard for the integrity of OU 6v6 singles as a game and allowing this unprecedented mechanic to flip everything we know about win-conditions, late-game mapping, and team building on it's head is beyond egregious at this point.
Terra should not be the norm.
Terra players should be on this forum crying instead of me, they should be the ones begging for a private room.
I'm asking for an immediate council vote on Terra.
or I'm asking for an immediate suspect test on Terra with a 88gxe minimum.
I won't get either. I know.
I'm putting it here in black and white so that in 5+ years we look back at how stupid terra was and how it ruined a generation, there was at least one player who tried everything they could to save it.
Agreed. As fun as the meta has been with tera, I wouldn't be upset if it was banned. Losing games because of a gamble on what Tera the opponent was running has been nothing short of frustrating. Hope to see this implemented, or at least considered
I'll admit I'm not really a good player, more casual to be honest, as many times I'm too busy to play the tier, but I've been getting surprised by tera a lot of times and there are unhealthy sets that are allowed by tera, which I usually struggle to fit in counterplay against.
A memorable experience was a tera fairy garganacl with block, which iron defense'd and beat my great tusk 1v1 after trapping it, to open up his other mons for an easy sweep. I'm not saying that it's unbeatable, but it's kinda stupid how I'm expected to beat garganacl 1v1 after being trapped by a set which chips me away and counters almost all the great tusk sets purely with tera. You can argue that I could run heavy slam or but to be honest I already struggle to fit 5 moves on tusk for every team I make, I REALLY wouldn't mind not having to fit a 6th, also, without recovery from lefties tusk is too chipped down to continuously defend against threats. And don't forget, next time it might be tera flying and beat it anyway, it's unbearable.
For real, y'all should try it lmfao goodbye to the 57% usage mon:
Garganacl @ Leftovers
Ability: Purifying Salt
Tera Type: Fairy
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Impish Nature
- Block
- Recover
- Iron Defense
- Salt Cure
I really love tera, but I don't like the option to reveal tera types either as it would just create true 50/50's. Tera captain is something I'm willing to try instead since you'd know which mon had the ability to tera, giving you more space and not having to take the risk of seeing a defensive/offensive tera instantly make you be in a 5v6.
Bad news :/
Although we gathered enough players and mods to create a private room where we could have non-terra tournaments we were denied.
More info on a post on my profile, response and my rebuttal that has not been answered.
Anyway.
Just played some games.
I've been top 10, if not top 5, on the ladder for about a week now.
This meta is easy and broken so that's not saying much, I know.
Today I went on a tilt that started with:
First game, I mapped out my late game win and executed it.
Later on, I played the same team, not sure if some YT team or what but same mons.
Mapped out a similar win condition.
This time, however, opp had a different terra than the previous player, and won.
After that I just clicked buttons for a few more games and came here to give one final attempt at a logical conclusion, after my solution was outright denied.
When we map out our win conditions and prerequisites need to secure a victory, we have to account for various factors.
Terra adds too much variance.
A player can't be expected to plan for both Normal and Fire Dragonite.
A player can't be expected to plan for both Ground, Ice, Grass, etc Volcarona.
A player can't be expected to plan for both Fairy, Flying, Dark Kingambit
Can they? Technically on some level, if you really want to mental gymnastics an argument and reach for straws.
But even then, should they? No.
It's Schrodinger's Pokemon.
At one point in the game, your opponent might as well have 7-9 mons until revealed.
This is literally what regional forms are, often the same stats and similar design of the mon, the only thing that's changed is the typing and ability.
This makes it a new pokemon. Get it?
You can change your pokemon into another mon during a turn.
Read that again.
If I told someone in gen 6 or 7 that you could change your pokemon into another mon during a turn, they would laugh and say that's the stupidest thing they ever heard.
I was talking to a co-worker just now as I'm writing this and she wanted to know what it was all about.
I said lets play rock-paper-scissors.
She chose scissors and I chose paper, then I switched it to rock.
She said that's stupid, and I said yeah.
Very early into the terra debate, someone said, "we will never get a balanced meta, just constant tech chasing."
We are still, and will continue to see, new terra sets to counter other terra sets, and vice versa.
The rise of terra fire Dragonite is the current example.
And then we have terras that circle back around, such as terra flying King.
It's just a constant cycle of variance.
Variance alone is a major issue, but the power Terra adds makes great OU mons broken.
But we know that, these arguments have been said before.
Something I realized lately was that even goofy ass GameFreak knew Hidden Power was stupid af.
They knew that when designing mons, its asinine to give them access to a move of any typing.
Isn't that funny...
Gen 9, if played without the gimmick, has potential to be the greatest metagame of OU 6v6 singles.
We are actively being robbed of a great meta.
The skill gap is insane as well, average players get dusted when it comes to terra mind games, or not playing enough to know all the current techs, or just simply being overloaded with variance information.
These are the options left with after our valid application for a private room was denied.
Options:
1) Create a discord and gather players who want to play actual pokemon without the mechanic intended to make 9yo SV players go "Wow! Cool!"
2) Wait and pray for another terra suspect, but my open stance on this is, and no offense, the average players aren't knowledgeable to know how detrimental this mechanic is to a balanced meta, and thus terra will never be fully banned, at least by popular vote.
3) Simply play for fun using memes. Because that's all we're really doing right now. A terra meta inherently can not be a serious meta.
4) Appeal to the council. This is the council that gave no votes on QB Pao, which culminated to those same members voting on it's ban. I say that as an illustration, because at one point I was also on the fence about Pao. With hindsight though, it was broken the entire time. So, this is an illustration that given enough time, broken things become obvious. If there are members of our council that in March 2023 still think Terra is fine, then we have the wrong people in charge.
I gathered a list of 40+ players who were interested in the non-terra private room, including prominent mods and OU room owner.
I gathered this list within a day and a half.
There is a massive alienation of players who want to play a non-terra meta.
More and more players are considering themselves anti-terra.
Anyone who actually plays the meta, and understands the meta, can not reasonably argue that terra makes this meta more competitive and balanced.
If they say it does, then as I said, they don't understand what a balanced and competitive meta is.
I know council is busy, especially the ones with YT channels, and they are volunteers after all- I don't want to baffle any of them by accusing them of lack of transparency, but our growing community needs something concrete soon.
I tried helping them with the application for a private non-terra room, but as stated in my opening, it was denied.
So the ball is back in the council's court.
We either need a separate ladder, a private room, or another terra suspect.
The complete disregard for us as players is getting egregious.
The complete disregard for the integrity of OU 6v6 singles as a game and allowing this unprecedented mechanic to flip everything we know about win-conditions, late-game mapping, and team building on it's head is beyond egregious at this point.
Terra should not be the norm.
Terra players should be on this forum crying instead of me, they should be the ones begging for a private room.
I'm asking for an immediate council vote on Terra.
or I'm asking for an immediate suspect test on Terra with a 88gxe minimum.
I won't get either. I know.
I'm putting it here in black and white so that in 5+ years we look back at how stupid terra was and how it ruined a generation, there was at least one player who tried everything they could to save it.
I really don't understand why you aren't allowed a private room to play without tera. Makes no sense to me, casuals will still play the standard ladder and if tera really is as big as a problem as you say (which I agree with) the proof would be in the pudding as people would vote with their feet (so to speak) and the private room would be popular.
I'll admit I'm not really a good player, more casual to be honest, as many times I'm too busy to play the tier, but I've been getting surprised by tera a lot of times and there are unhealthy sets that are allowed by tera, which I usually struggle to fit in counterplay against.
A memorable experience was a tera fairy garganacl with block, which iron defense'd and beat my great tusk 1v1 after trapping it, to open up his other mons for an easy sweep. I'm not saying that it's unbeatable, but it's kinda stupid how I'm expected to beat garganacl 1v1 after being trapped by a set which chips me away and counters almost all the great tusk sets purely with tera. You can argue that I could run heavy slam or but to be honest I already struggle to fit 5 moves on tusk for every team I make, I REALLY wouldn't mind not having to fit a 6th, also, without recovery from lefties tusk is too chipped down to continuously defend against threats. And don't forget, next time it might be tera flying and beat it anyway, it's unbearable.
For real, y'all should try it lmfao goodbye to the 57% usage mon:
Garganacl @ Leftovers
Ability: Purifying Salt
Tera Type: Fairy
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Impish Nature
- Block
- Recover
- Iron Defense
- Salt Cure
I really love tera, but I don't like the option to reveal tera types either as it would just create true 50/50's. Tera captain is something I'm willing to try instead since you'd know which mon had the ability to tera, giving you more space and not having to take the risk of seeing a defensive/offensive tera instantly make you be in a 5v6.
Honestly, this is kind of amusing to read. There's a number of ways to beat this set. Like, Skeledirge beats this set 1v1. Having Pokemon with VoltTurn allows you to deny this set. Covert Cloak Gastro and Dengo both absolutely dookie on this thing's head from so high up that it's like Arceus himself dookied on it. Shed Tail also EXTREMELY denies it.
Then you have things like Circle Throw, Roar, etc. that forces Garg itself out. It is far from unbeatable, you just happened to get cheesed because you left your Tusk in to try and deal with it instead of getting into something else that is actually a response to Garg.
Agreed. As fun as the meta has been with tera, I wouldn't be upset if it was banned. Losing games because of a gamble on what Tera the opponent was running has been nothing short of frustrating. Hope to see this implemented, or at least considered
Terra is a lot of fun. If I was 12yo I would think it's the coolest shit ever.
Mewtwo was cool af in gen 1. It was fun to use.
Also want to put this out there, all the restrictions proposed were and remain terrible.
Massive failure on the council to even introduce these restrictions and make a complicated situation even more convoluted.
It also stacked favor for pro-terra votes.
The preview restriction is awful. Without full access to opposing team, as VGC does, all preview does is add yet another layer of mindgames.
I can make my Glimm terra fairy and not run Gleam.
So opp knows I'm terra fairy but not that I don't have Gleam, so they can't really send in Moon or Tusk, etc.
I can see Val is terra ghost, but it might not even have Shadow Ball.
Irl I'm the first person to admit I made a mistake. I don't have an ego problem. I'm human and I make mistakes.
Our OU council needs to do the same.
The "wait for Home" argument is terrible.
We'll have a dumpster fire meta with all the broken mons running around for weeks.
Then we'll have weeks and weeks of suspect testing, and bringing down mons that have been banned for testing.
And of course, a lot of these mons that are going to be tested and pushed out of OU will be due to being broken with Terra.
I really don't understand why you aren't allowed a private room to play without tera. Makes no sense to me, casuals will still play the standard ladder and if tera really is as big as a problem as you say (which I agree with) the proof would be in the pudding as people would vote with their feet (so to speak) and the private room would be popular.
Yeah bro check out my profile. I have links to their response and my rebuttal which has went unanswered for days now.
We followed the requirements listed here: https://www.smogon.com/forums/threa...-contacting-upper-staff.3538721/#post-6227636
I was told by a global mod I would need 30 players on a list- we exceeded that.
We also needed a respected mod to submit the application.
User Wildfiree is an OU Room Owner Global Voice- he volunteered to be the Room Owner of this room and to submit the application.
I don't want to get into the real reason I think it was denied, but their response made no sense.
Essentially they said, "A private room would threaten to split up the entire community, but we don't see a need for it because no one would join."
Like.. huh.
A broken omnipresent mechanic you're forced into because the player base likes it? Never heard of that before. (disclaimer: this is a joke)
In actual seriousness there's an issue with voting on Tera: it's far less broken in lower tiers but OU's rules affect them so there's an incentive for players of lower tiers to vote to keep it legal in OU. You might have an easier time getting rid of it by voting if that incentive went away.
Terra is a lot of fun. If I was 12yo I would think it's the coolest shit ever.
Mewtwo was cool af in gen 1. It was fun to use.
Also want to put this out there, all the restrictions proposed were and remain terrible.
Massive failure on the council to even introduce these restrictions and make a complicated situation even more convoluted.
It also stacked favor for pro-terra votes.
The preview restriction is awful. Without full access to opposing team, as VGC does, all preview does is add yet another layer of mindgames.
I can make my Glimm terra fairy and not run Gleam.
So opp knows I'm terra fairy but not that I don't have Gleam, so they can't really send in Moon or Tusk, etc.
I can see Val is terra ghost, but it might not even have Shadow Ball.
Irl I'm the first person to admit I made a mistake. I don't have an ego problem. I'm human and I make mistakes.
Our OU council needs to do the same.
The "wait for Home" argument is terrible.
We'll have a dumpster fire meta with all the broken mons running around for weeks.
Then we'll have weeks and weeks of suspect testing, and bringing down mons that have been banned for testing.
And of course, a lot of these mons that are going to be tested and pushed out of OU will be due to being broken with Terra.
Yeah bro check out my profile. I have links to their response and my rebuttal which has went unanswered for days now.
We followed the requirements listed here: https://www.smogon.com/forums/threa...-contacting-upper-staff.3538721/#post-6227636
I was told by a global mod I would need 30 players on a list- we exceeded that.
We also needed a respected mod to submit the application.
User Wildfiree is an OU Room Owner Global Voice- he volunteered to be the Room Owner of this room and to submit the application.
I don't want to get into the real reason I think it was denied, but their response made no sense.
Essentially they said, "A private room would threaten to split up the entire community, but we don't see a need for it because no one would join."
Like.. huh.
You seem to have a serious hateboner for Tera right now, sheesh. The only Tera I've ever had a problem with was Tera Normal due to ESpeed cheese and Boomburst being massive threats. I'll break this down bit by bit to address each thing.
1. Even if all the supposed "restrictions" were bad when it was voted on, the "issue" of Tera would be the same as Dynamax in Gen 8; You either have Tera, or you don't. There is no true middle ground you can have. Restricting it, or revealing Teras, doesn't do anything to change how things go. Teams would just focus around a single Tera Pokemon, and then you'd STILL be complaining in spite of not being sucker punched. "This Pokemon is like everywhere and I always lose to it because of Tera! Broken! Ban it!"
2. It doesn't add another layer of mind games, in fact it actually takes away a layer of it. You KNOW what their Tera types are, and it's not like every Pokemon that Teras even has access to a move to make use of said Tera. (See: Garganacl, Skeledirge, etc.) The only thing revealing Tera types does is turn it from "What Tera is this, and when will they burn it?" to "When will they burn their Tera, and what can I do to play around it?"
3. OU council's only mistake so far is letting the fish and the panther stay around for so long. They were tearing up the game and making it much less enjoyable to play. Now the game's in a fairly decentish spot (looking away from Wake and Garg.) Your opinion is that council and community made a mistake to not ban Tera. I think you're most likely in the vocal minority here.
4. Right now there isn't a reason to ban Tera. Our Pokemon pool is so shallow in the grand scheme of things (40% of the overall Pokemon count) that Tera isn't inherently a problem. Obviously, you're going to try and cite various Pokemon that have been banned and say they wouldn't be without Tera (most likely looking at Pao and Yu), which would also be false. Pao and Yu are monstrous powerhouses because of their coverage, base stat line, and abilities combined. Tera had very little to do with their bans, and the only Pokemon that I realistically see being banned BECAUSE of Tera is Volcarona. That's it. Once HOME drops and we see what we have to deal with, THEN we can have the conversation about action against Tera again.
And before you bring up other things like Ape, Ape was broken from the ground running. Decent bulk plus Rage Fist is stupid. You just take hits all damn day and get free Rage Fist stacks. It also doesn't forget your RF stack count when you Revival Blessing, so that's another layer of stupidity.
Honestly, this is kind of amusing to read. There's a number of ways to beat this set. Like, Skeledirge beats this set 1v1. Having Pokemon with VoltTurn allows you to deny this set. Covert Cloak Gastro and Dengo both absolutely dookie on this thing's head from so high up that it's like Arceus himself dookied on it. Shed Tail also EXTREMELY denies it.
Then you have things like Circle Throw, Roar, etc. that forces Garg itself out. It is far from unbeatable, you just happened to get cheesed because you left your Tusk in to try and deal with it instead of getting into something else that is actually a response to Garg.
The problem isn't letting tusk get cheesed lmao, the problem is having to guess that there is a block iron defense set with tera fairy which isn't really viable to guess, otherwise I'll get other mons chipped down for no reason.
Even so I'll answer your counterplay cause it sounds fun. Covert cloak is the best item to counter it butyou don't see it being ran on many things for the specific reason that there are other counters. It gets outsped so volt/turn (Also from all the u turn mons in the game, only one willing to switch in is covert cloak corviknight, while many of them run leftovers. You also only have 2 volt switch mons in the tier and rotom either runs scarf, boots or lefties, it ain't running cloak. Iron Treads is iron treads, it's just getting worse against the meta over time, specially now with the wake spam.
Gastro isn't really the best mon rn in my opinion after losing toxic, cause how is it gonna pressure anything without being setup fogger, but alr, gonna let it slide. Gholdengos are mostly running scarf from what I'm seeing, covert cloak is somewhat viable but last time they started doing it garganacl's learned earthquake. Shed tail is a 2 usage max thing and lets be real, it's orthworm. Substitute is by far the most viable but you aren't gonna have 6 pokemon running substitute for garg, so most likely they are taking chip dmg on switch in. Going to great tusk with lefties countered all the most popular garganacl sets and all ground/fighting types (Which resist salt cure without the 25% damage) are taken down by the tera fairy, like ok, perhaps not Breloom and Iron Valiant, the latter which is most of the time running booster and would waste it.
Best counterplay really is ting lu which takes 12.5% of chip from salt cure + dmg after lefties after using whirlwind and either switches out or keeps taking more damage.
Tera fairy block garganacl is pain unless you run cloak on all teams, since it needs you to both predict a really rare set AND a tera fairy from it (Which you can even switch and use others).
This to say it's a fun set, your opponent ain't gonna predict it, trust me. (Also you can always argue to pair it with magnezone, which beats corv cloak and opens up other mons in your team (Physical attackers)
This duo is quite great as you can beat corvi and great tusk to open up 4 offensive physical mons to brute force through. Just Fun.
I agree, tera is cool, but makes an unbalanced meta that ruins this gen in some ways. It's incredibly hard for low ladder players like me to wrap their heads around, and makes the gen unbalanced. Take volc or d-nite for example. Their doing better than ever thanks to tera. Or . Sure dozo can beat it on most occasions, but the second it goes tera dark, it's GG. It's just such an unbalanced mechanic that should get banned.
And if we can't get full action, maybe we can get a no tera ladder, like back in gen 6 times we got a no scald ladder?
Don't worry guys, here I have the complete chart of if something is gonna get banned, fully loaded with every single imaginable scenario and easy to understand
Memes aside, I know that the tera decision will not change for a long time due to it being a community vote, but now that we are on topic, I wanna ask everybody in the room if your personal opinion on it hasn't changed, mine hasn't, its a fun gimmick that brings life, niches and creativity to the table, and I have been having a lot of fun this gen honestly, and if it was on my opinion alone, I would keep it around no problem, but the damage is gonna cause with the big horrible mons returning is way worse than the good, fuck the Gen 7 power creep
You seem to have a serious hateboner for Tera right now, sheesh. The only Tera I've ever had a problem with was Tera Normal due to ESpeed cheese and Boomburst being massive threats. I'll break this down bit by bit to address each thing.
1. Even if all the supposed "restrictions" were bad when it was voted on, the "issue" of Tera would be the same as Dynamax in Gen 8; You either have Tera, or you don't. There is no true middle ground you can have. Restricting it, or revealing Teras, doesn't do anything to change how things go. Teams would just focus around a single Tera Pokemon, and then you'd STILL be complaining in spite of not being sucker punched. "This Pokemon is like everywhere and I always lose to it because of Tera! Broken! Ban it!"
2. It doesn't add another layer of mind games, in fact it actually takes away a layer of it. You KNOW what their Tera types are, and it's not like every Pokemon that Teras even has access to a move to make use of said Tera. (See: Garganacl, Skeledirge, etc.) The only thing revealing Tera types does is turn it from "What Tera is this, and when will they burn it?" to "When will they burn their Tera, and what can I do to play around it?"
3. OU council's only mistake so far is letting the fish and the panther stay around for so long. They were tearing up the game and making it much less enjoyable to play. Now the game's in a fairly decentish spot (looking away from Wake and Garg.) Your opinion is that council and community made a mistake to not ban Tera. I think you're most likely in the vocal minority here.
4. Right now there isn't a reason to ban Tera. Our Pokemon pool is so shallow in the grand scheme of things (40% of the overall Pokemon count) that Tera isn't inherently a problem. Obviously, you're going to try and cite various Pokemon that have been banned and say they wouldn't be without Tera (most likely looking at Pao and Yu), which would also be false. Pao and Yu are monstrous powerhouses because of their coverage, base stat line, and abilities combined. Tera had very little to do with their bans, and the only Pokemon that I realistically see being banned BECAUSE of Tera is Volcarona. That's it. Once HOME drops and we see what we have to deal with, THEN we can have the conversation about action against Tera again.
And before you bring up other things like Ape, Ape was broken from the ground running. Decent bulk plus Rage Fist is stupid. You just take hits all damn day and get free Rage Fist stacks. It also doesn't forget your RF stack count when you Revival Blessing, so that's another layer of stupidity.
1) Exactly. Vote should have been Ban/No Ban. Glad u understood what I was saying by accident.
2) Incorrect. Without knowing the moves people will abuse the knowledge the opponent has. My Glimm scenario is the perfect example. Even if that wasn't the case, restrictions obviously show that pure terra is broken. Would you want to play gen 8 w Dmax but they could only Dmax on turn 1? Or some goofy ass "restriction" like that? C'mon bro.
3). If you think that's their only mistake then fine. But I'm advocating for a silent and ignored playerbase. idc if that's 30 ppl or 300, we're being ignored and alienated because we want to play smogon OU 6v6 singles as it always has been.
4) Espa was 100% broken thanks to Terra. Pao less obvious but it was the added strength of terra dark that let it 2hko Don vs 3hko. I already laid out why the "wait for Home" argument is incredibly flawed. You're essentially saying yeah its broken but lets wait a year?
You started out saying you don't personally have an issue playing with Terra. I don't either, I play just fine with terra. I can hit top 5 on the OU ladder with terra. Just because I'm winning with terra doesn't mean I'm having fun, or think it's balanced or competitive in anyway.
Thank you though for your response. Through discourse, maybe we can shed some light on how dumb this gimmick is.
Like I said, if we play RPS, and I chose paper and you scissors, and then I change it to rock, and you start saying that was cheap and I say "well, personally I don't have a problem with it" then you might understand what we're dealing with here.
I agree, tera is cool, but makes an unbalanced meta that ruins this gen in some ways. It's incredibly hard for low ladder players like me to wrap their heads around, and makes the gen unbalanced. Take volc or d-nite for example. Their doing better than ever thanks to tera. Or . Sure dozo can beat it on most occasions, but the second it goes tera dark, it's GG. It's just such an unbalanced mechanic that should get banned.
And if we can't get full action, maybe we can get a no tera ladder, like back in gen 6 times we got a no scald ladder?
Yeah bro I'm sorry. A lot of players just feel helpless when they play cuz their opp might just understand and abuse the mechanic more than they can cope with. I'm really working hard to help you enjoy the game. I'm just a random player though and I need all the support I can get.
What is stopping you from just playing Terra-less OU either with gentleman's rules via discord or something or on a side server? we literally had AN OPEN SUSPECT vote already and terra did not get banned and the council has said one billion times that they're not revisiting the mechanic before HOME. what is the point of any of this
The problem isn't letting tusk get cheesed lmao, the problem is having to guess that there is a block iron defense set with tera fairy which isn't really viable to guess, otherwise I'll get other mons chipped down for no reason.
Even so I'll answer your counterplay cause it sounds fun. Covert cloak is the best item to counter it butyou don't see it being ran on many things for the specific reason that there are other counters. It gets outsped so volt/turn (Also from all the u turn mons in the game, only one willing to switch in is covert cloak corviknight, while many of them run leftovers. You also only have 2 volt switch mons in the tier and rotom either runs scarf, boots or lefties, it ain't running cloak. Iron Treads is iron treads, it's just getting worse against the meta over time, specially now with the wake spam.
Gastro isn't really the best mon rn in my opinion after losing toxic, cause how is it gonna pressure anything without being setup fogger, but alr, gonna let it slide. Gholdengos are mostly running scarf from what I'm seeing, covert cloak is somewhat viable but last time they started doing it garganacl's learned earthquake. Shed tail is a 2 usage max thing and lets be real, it's orthworm. Substitute is by far the most viable but you aren't gonna have 6 pokemon running substitute for garg, so most likely they are taking chip dmg on switch in. Going to great tusk with lefties countered all the most popular garganacl sets and all ground/fighting types (Which resist salt cure without the 25% damage) are taken down by the tera fairy, like ok, perhaps not Breloom and Iron Valiant, the latter which is most of the time running booster and would waste it.
Best counterplay really is ting lu which takes 12.5% of chip from salt cure + dmg after lefties after using whirlwind and either switches out or keeps taking more damage.
Tera fairy block garganacl is pain unless you run cloak on all teams, since it needs you to both predict a really rare set AND a tera fairy from it (Which you can even switch and use others).
This to say it's a fun set, your opponent ain't gonna predict it, trust me. (Also you can always argue to pair it with magnezone, which beats corv cloak and opens up other mons in your team (Physical attackers)
This duo is quite great as you can beat corvi and great tusk to open up 4 offensive physical mons to brute force through. Just Fun.
1. The block set is a cheese set, plain and simple. You don't expect it because it isn't commonly seen, thus it is rogue and cheese.
2. People don't use Cloak often because unlike with Leftovers, you don't actively see it helping you -- except against guaranteed effects, like Salt Cure and Chilling Water.
3. If you're restricting yourself to the OU tier alone for VoltTurners, then that's on you lmao. There's plenty of others in other tiers that serve their purposes well. Tsareena, Iron Hands, Iron Thorns, Magnezone, Sandy Stonks, Kilowattrel, Lokix, Maushold, Scizor, Slither Wing, Staraptor, FlamiGOD... All usable VoltTurners in the grand scheme of things. Maybe not vs Garg specifically, but over all.
4. Gastro is criminally underrated. Seriously, people whine and whine and whine about Gastro and Corv being "too passive", yet I have no problems getting success with them. Cloak Gastro checks both Dengo and Garg all day, every day. Considering that Clod, Gastro, Pex, and Corvi are all being called "too passive", it makes me feel like people have no idea what they're on about. Too busy jerking it to Hyper Offense to really sit down and understand what these things can bring to the table. It's even a decent check to Walking Wake. I am willing to die on this hill, if I have to.
5. Dengo patterns are Dengo patterns. Most are Scarf/Specs/Balloon, but I know I vastly prefer bulky Recover 3 attacks with Cloak + Tera Flying. You check all forms of Garg and even have some nice switch-ins vs other Pokemon. (Especially Amoongus and Pex.)
6. I give those points on Sub and Shed Tail. It isn't very common, but I do run Sub 3 Attacks Dirge to really mess with my opponents. You either get a free hit as they switch in while you Sub up, or they try and break the Sub (Garg) and fail to do so.
7. Personally, I NEVER rely on Tusk to beat Garg, but if I do, I don't use Close Combat and get stuffed by Tera Fairy. I'm always Headlong Rush/Earthquake for big damage, regardless of if it is Fairy, Ghost, or Water. Hell, even opening a Knock Off for safety is always a good play.
8. You need not predict a Tera Fairy to beat Garg. If you have a Pokemon that can just sit on it, it won't want to stay in. Gastro and Tera'd Dirge both do this with ease. I'll even run some calcs for you to show you why:
vs
Non-Tera:
0 Atk Garganacl Salt Cure vs. 244 HP / 0 Def Gastrodon: 30-36 (7 - 8.4%) -- possibly the worst move ever
12 SpA Gastrodon Surf vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Garganacl: 144-170 (35.6 - 42%) -- 87.8% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
12 SpA Gastrodon Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Garganacl: 144-170 (35.6 - 42%) -- 87.8% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
Tera:
12 SpA Gastrodon Surf vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Tera Fairy Garganacl: 72-85 (17.8 - 21%) -- possible 7HKO after Leftovers recovery
12 SpA Gastrodon Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Tera Fairy Garganacl: 72-85 (17.8 - 21%) -- possible 7HKO after Leftovers recovery
Gastro sits on Garganacl all damn day even with 244/0 investment, and even if it Teras, it can't beat you. Salt Cure's after effect does 0%, and 35.6 - 42% // 17.8% - 21% is way more than a piddly 7 - 8.4%. This isn't even factoring in the SpDef drops that can come from Earth Power.
vs
Neither Tera'd (using Substitue HP to calc damages for my specific Dirge set):
0 Atk Tera Fairy Garganacl Salt Cure vs. 220 HP / 0 Def Skeledirge: 86-104 (21.2 - 25.7%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO/Break Substitute
252+ SpA Skeledirge Torch Song vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Garganacl: 49-58 (12.1 - 14.3%) -- possibly the worst move ever
252+ SpA Skeledirge Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Garganacl: 148-176 (36.6 - 43.5%) -- 99.1% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
Garg Tera Fairy:
252+ SpA Skeledirge Torch Song vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Tera Fairy Garganacl: 99-117 (24.5 - 28.9%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Skeledirge Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Tera Fairy Garganacl: 74-88 (18.3 - 21.7%) -- possible 7HKO after Leftovers recovery
Dirge Tera Fairy:
0 Atk Tera Fairy Garganacl Salt Cure vs. 220 HP / 0 Def Tera Fairy Skeledirge: 43-52 (10.6 - 12.8%) -- 3.7% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
Committing Tera on Dirge is never a bad thing, unless the opponent has a Volcarona on their team. My own Dirge set sits on Garg all day and beats this set 1v1.
1) Exactly. Vote should have been Ban/No Ban. Glad u understood what I was saying by accident.
2) Incorrect. Without knowing the moves people will abuse the knowledge the opponent has. My Glimm scenario is the perfect example. Even if that wasn't the case, restrictions obviously show that pure terra is broken. Would you want to play gen 8 w Dmax but they could only Dmax on turn 1? Or some goofy ass "restriction" like that? C'mon bro.
3). If you think that's their only mistake then fine. But I'm advocating for a silent and ignored playerbase. idc if that's 30 ppl or 300, we're being ignored and alienated because we want to play smogon OU 6v6 singles as it always has been.
4) Espa was 100% broken thanks to Terra. Pao less obvious but it was the added strength of terra dark that let it 2hko Don vs 3hko. I already laid out why the "wait for Home" argument is incredibly flawed. You're essentially saying yeah its broken but lets wait a year?
You started out saying you don't personally have an issue playing with Terra. I don't either, I play just fine with terra. I can hit top 5 on the OU ladder with terra. Just because I'm winning with terra doesn't mean I'm having fun, or think it's balanced or competitive in anyway.
Thank you though for your response. Through discourse, maybe we can shed some light on how dumb this gimmick is.
Like I said, if we play RPS, and I chose paper and you scissors, and then I change it to rock, and you start saying that was cheap and I say "well, personally I don't have a problem with it" then you might understand what we're dealing with here.
Yeah bro I'm sorry. A lot of players just feel helpless when they play cuz they're opp might just understand and abuse the mechanic more than they can cope with. I'm really working hard to help you enjoy the game. I'm just a random player though and I need all the support I can get.
1. Even if I bothered to try for reqs back then, I would've been in the boat of restricting Tera, but not banning it. Having played a fair bit both on PS and in-game, I'm more than fine with how Tera is, as I've been actively becoming a better team builder. A lot of people have problems when battling because their fundamentals of team building is bad. Doesn't matter if you're new to the series or a seasoned "campaign veteran" of Pokemon; If your team building fundamentals are bad, you're going to struggle.
2. Not even going to address this because of the fact that not every Pokemon makes use of Tera Blast, or has a move in their kit to make use of said Tera. A good number of them are merely DEFENSIVE Teras.
3. "As it always has been" tell that to Gen 6 and 7 lmfao. Megas and Z-Moves were all over the place, yet I don't see you crying over that. Just DMax (which was broken and unhealthy out the gate) and Tera. Megas could be debated as to whether it was more unhealthy or not, as various Pokemon not only changed types, but abilities AND stats as well.
4. Espathra was broken from the ground running. It just took time for people to realize this. As someone who was in UU while Espa was running amok, I know how the suffering goes with the dumb emu. Tera simply pushed it over the edge.
I am not saying Tera is broken at all. I am saying that as the game is right now, with the selection of Pokemon we have, Terastalization is NOT unhealthy, a problem, or any other negative-leaning connotation. The only Pokemon that I can think of that are even remotely "abusing" Tera at the moment is Garg (which just makes very good use of it due to its entire kit), and Volcarona. That's it. Every other Pokemon in the game uses it decently well, but it is FAR from a problem.
We don't want to play a 60 turn game for someone to Terra by accident, habit, or trolling.
A side server would be nice, but bro we can't even get a private room lmao.
The point is that I firmly believe terra won't be banned with this next supposed suspect, and I'm getting ahead of it now.
I've always expressed why the "wait for Home" logic is deeply flawed.
Also, we just want a space for tournaments, since they're more fun than random gentleman's agreement games.
We'd rather not be forced off site into some random Discord group either.
1. Even if I bothered to try for reqs back then, I would've been in the boat of restricting Tera, but not banning it. Having played a fair bit both on PS and in-game, I'm more than fine with how Tera is, as I've been actively becoming a better team builder. A lot of people have problems when battling because their fundamentals of team building is bad. Doesn't matter if you're new to the series or a seasoned "campaign veteran" of Pokemon; If your team building fundamentals are bad, you're going to struggle.
2. Not even going to address this because of the fact that not every Pokemon makes use of Tera Blast, or has a move in their kit to make use of said Tera. A good number of them are merely DEFENSIVE Teras.
3. "As it always has been" tell that to Gen 6 and 7 lmfao. Megas and Z-Moves were all over the place, yet I don't see you crying over that. Just DMax (which was broken and unhealthy out the gate) and Tera. Megas could be debated as to whether it was more unhealthy or not, as various Pokemon not only changed types, but abilities AND stats as well.
4. Espathra was broken from the ground running. It just took time for people to realize this. As someone who was in UU while Espa was running amok, I know how the suffering goes with the dumb emu. Tera simply pushed it over the edge.
I am not saying Tera is broken at all. I am saying that as the game is right now, with the selection of Pokemon we have, Terastalization is NOT unhealthy, a problem, or any other negative-leaning connotation. The only Pokemon that I can think of that are even remotely "abusing" Tera at the moment is Garg (which just makes very good use of it due to its entire kit), and Volcarona. That's it. Every other Pokemon in the game uses it decently well, but it is FAR from a problem.
4) Incorrect, Espa was a well designed mon with obvious flaws. But glad u can agree that terra pushed it over the edge and will continue to push mons out of OU.
And I'm saying the opposite. Idc if we had 10 mons, the ability to fundamentally change your mon at any point is a broken concept in a competitive format. It changes everything we know about smogon 6v6 singles. I can't keep going over the same points I made. Either reread it or move on if you don't understand things like win-conditions, late-game mapping, variance, etc.
We don't want to play a 60 turn game for someone to Terra by accident, habit, or trolling.
A side server would be nice, but bro we can't even get a private room lmao.
The point is that I firmly believe terra won't be banned with this next supposed suspect, and I'm getting ahead of it now.
I've always expressed why the "wait for Home" logic is deeply flawed.
Also, we just want a space for tournaments, since they're more fun than random gentleman's agreement games.
We'd rather not be forced off site into some random Discord group either.
1) Again, this isn't about just you king. ffs.
2) Zzzzzz
3) False equivalency, another Zzzzz
4) Incorrect, Espa was a well designed mon with obvious flaws. But glad u can agree that terra pushed it over the edge and will continue to push mons out of OU.
And I'm saying the opposite. Idc if we had 10 mons, the ability to fundamentally change your mon at any point is a broken concept in a competitive format. It changes everything we know about smogon 6v6 singles. I can't keep going over the same points I made. Either reread it or move on if you don't understand things like win-conditions, late-game mapping, variance, etc.
Being rude and a generally foul person is not going to get your argument anywhere. Also should add that while Espa would have obviously been balanced without Tera, I find it hard to argue for a mon like it being healthy or a positive presence for the meta, a la evasion or Kings Rock. All Espa is is a matchup fish pokemon, and that isn’t exactly my favorite thing.
Being rude and a generally foul person is not going to get your argument anywhere. Also should add that while Espa would have obviously been balanced without Tera, I find it hard to argue for a mon like it being healthy or a positive presence for the meta, a la evasion or Kings Rock. All Espa is is a matchup fish pokemon, and that isn’t exactly my favorite thing.
Yeah, the "debate" has pretty much broken down now and there isn't much point responding to them on that front.
And yeah, Espa is very much a matchup phishing Pokemon. You either get a team that can handle it, or 6-0 with Espa alone. Not a very healthy thing for the game as a whole.
4) Incorrect, Espa was a well designed mon with obvious flaws. But glad u can agree that terra pushed it over the edge and will continue to push mons out of OU.
I don't like to get snippy with subjects like this normally, but I can't seriously ignore someone calling the one-mon Baton Pass Chain "well designed". Espathra's design is to snowball by doing nothing/boost spamming if provided a free action, which good or bad at the job, makes its playstyle an inherent match-up fish much moreso than an expression of player skill and ability. Whether or not Espathra were broken, I would never call it well-designed (in a Single Battle Context at least) for the reasons above. Tera made it better at abusing a playstyle it was already cancerous at, like throwing a rock at a guy who fell off a cliff already: it makes things worse but the biggest problems clearly started beforehand.
On a different topic, do you think that beyond the new toy fad, Walking Wake will make Sun Teams more common, or just make the ones people already play significantly better? It certainly improves the playstyle significantly in ways such as adding a fast Wallbreaker and a rain check effortlessly, but it also basically NEEDS Sun in order to be particularly notable, with the playstyle being stronger but not strictly diversified by its addition as an offensive juggernaut.
. Sure dozo can beat it on most occasions, but the second it goes tera dark, it's GG. It's just such an unbalanced mechanic that should get banned.
vs 
