There's Assurance as well, which OHKOs without needing to Tera as long as Zoroark hits it first that turn (which unless it's a Nasty Plot set is kind of a given).
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Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion
- Thread starter TPP
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Annihilape @ Leftovers
Ability: Defiant
Tera Type: Monke
EVs: 252 HP / 28 SpD / 228 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Bulk Up
- Night Slash
- Drain Punch
- Rage Fist
Here is your new Anhiliape set that has a worse matchup against Clodsire but a better one against Zoroark, or you can just, you know, kill clodsire or pex beforehand
I'm sorry but 1 true counter, while nice, does not help when outside that you have no checks, you need something more consistent
Ability: Defiant
Tera Type: Monke
EVs: 252 HP / 28 SpD / 228 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Bulk Up
- Night Slash
- Drain Punch
- Rage Fist
Here is your new Anhiliape set that has a worse matchup against Clodsire but a better one against Zoroark, or you can just, you know, kill clodsire or pex beforehand
I'm sorry but 1 true counter, while nice, does not help when outside that you have no checks, you need something more consistent
This is 100% true. If we let ape run free again, we'll all be forced to play H-Zoroark or pray to the gods we can beat the ape SOMEHOW with any given team.
With the final confirmed paradoxes released, I can finally ask the question,
Which version has the better Paradoxes?
by my reckoning, the order of power is-
Uber:
1) Miraidon (F)
2) Koraidon (P)
3) Flutter mane (P)
4) Iron Bundle (F)
5) Walking Wake (P)
High OU:
6) Great Tusk (P)
7) Iron Valiant (F)
8) Roaring Moon (P)
OU/UUBL:
9) Iron Moth (F)
10) Iron Leaves (F)
11) Iron Hands (F)
12) Iron Treads (F)
High UU:
13) Sandy Shocks (P)
14) Slither Wing (P)
UU:
15) Scream Tail (P)
16) Iron Jugulus (F)
17) Iron Thorns (F)
18) Brute Bonnet (P)
Overall I feel they're suprisingly evenly evenly distributed, especially considering the variety of typing, stats & roles the paradoxes have. Past paradoxes seem to overall be more volatile, having more Ubers/ top OU mons, but less overall that are truly viable in OU.
Which version has the better Paradoxes?
by my reckoning, the order of power is-
Uber:
1) Miraidon (F)
2) Koraidon (P)
3) Flutter mane (P)
4) Iron Bundle (F)
5) Walking Wake (P)
High OU:
6) Great Tusk (P)
7) Iron Valiant (F)
8) Roaring Moon (P)
OU/UUBL:
9) Iron Moth (F)
10) Iron Leaves (F)
11) Iron Hands (F)
12) Iron Treads (F)
High UU:
13) Sandy Shocks (P)
14) Slither Wing (P)
UU:
15) Scream Tail (P)
16) Iron Jugulus (F)
17) Iron Thorns (F)
18) Brute Bonnet (P)
Overall I feel they're suprisingly evenly evenly distributed, especially considering the variety of typing, stats & roles the paradoxes have. Past paradoxes seem to overall be more volatile, having more Ubers/ top OU mons, but less overall that are truly viable in OU.
I honestly believe it could become the new UU gengar, as it is very similar but has a better ability and u turn to pivot
(Edited cause it smh crtl c crtl v my past post, hate mobile)
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Paradox mons are in a weird position, they got a great stats distribution and got good movesets to use them, however, their abilities hold back them a lot. The need of setting sun or electric terrain (which has not good setters for OU rn) or otherwise having to give up your item is what makes them incosistent unless a few exceptions (the ubers and Tusk). The best example of it is the current debate about Wakes, considered overpowered on sun but mediocre even in rain.
If game freak gives them hidden abilities on the dlcs them all potentially can be top OU picks or ubers
Made this some time ago but since you're all discussing Iron Leaves, here's this:
Iron Leaves in the OU Metagame:
Good against: Azumarill, Breloom, Dondozo, Clodsire, Garganacl, Orthworm, Quaquaval, Toxapex, Ting Lu, Rotom Wash, Iron Treads, Sandy Shocks, Pelipper (If wild charge)
Good but doesn't like switching in against: Amoonguss, Great Tusk (If knock off), Glimmora
Good only if scarf to outspeed, otherwise gets beaten: Iron Moth, Roaring Moon, (Non scarf/boster) Iron Valiant (Usually specs)
Neutral against: Greninja and Pelipper (Both don't like switching in on eachother), Garchomp, Grimmsnarl,
Has counterplay but isn't reliable and most of the time loses: Corviknight, Hatterene, Kingambit
Gets beaten by: Ceruledge, Cinderace, Dragapult, Dragonite, Gholdengo, Iron Moth, Iron Valiant, Meowscarada, Skelidirge, Volcarona.
One thing you might have noticed is that this Pokemon can solve it's worse matchups with 2 tera types: Fire and Dark. Dark allows it to survive and hit meta staples like Gholdengo shadow ball and Kingambit's sucker punch, but fire provides more resistances to previous weaknesses and a way to beat Corviknight. In my opinion, tera dark will be the best option as you can support it with pokemon like magnezone to solve the problem of walls like corviknight, and skelidirge is non-existant rn.
It's a mon that hates getting chipped, but has good niches like being a physical attacker that breaks through great tusk and dondozo. It's also a great stall destroyer in my opinion if you solve the corviknight issue. Beating so many walls in the tier is a thing only achieved by it's specific typing which is actually incredible.
Iron Leaves in the OU Metagame:
Good against: Azumarill, Breloom, Dondozo, Clodsire, Garganacl, Orthworm, Quaquaval, Toxapex, Ting Lu, Rotom Wash, Iron Treads, Sandy Shocks, Pelipper (If wild charge)
Good but doesn't like switching in against: Amoonguss, Great Tusk (If knock off), Glimmora
Good only if scarf to outspeed, otherwise gets beaten: Iron Moth, Roaring Moon, (Non scarf/boster) Iron Valiant (Usually specs)
Neutral against: Greninja and Pelipper (Both don't like switching in on eachother), Garchomp, Grimmsnarl,
Has counterplay but isn't reliable and most of the time loses: Corviknight, Hatterene, Kingambit
Gets beaten by: Ceruledge, Cinderace, Dragapult, Dragonite, Gholdengo, Iron Moth, Iron Valiant, Meowscarada, Skelidirge, Volcarona.
One thing you might have noticed is that this Pokemon can solve it's worse matchups with 2 tera types: Fire and Dark. Dark allows it to survive and hit meta staples like Gholdengo shadow ball and Kingambit's sucker punch, but fire provides more resistances to previous weaknesses and a way to beat Corviknight. In my opinion, tera dark will be the best option as you can support it with pokemon like magnezone to solve the problem of walls like corviknight, and skelidirge is non-existant rn.
It's a mon that hates getting chipped, but has good niches like being a physical attacker that breaks through great tusk and dondozo. It's also a great stall destroyer in my opinion if you solve the corviknight issue. Beating so many walls in the tier is a thing only achieved by it's specific typing which is actually incredible.
I saw the blunder video where he couldn't okho defensive talonflame, honestly that has to be a low roll or he was using a shit set I swear, because it should be able to okho defensive talonflame with no issue? What the hell was he even running in that video?
I need some calcs! I mean I definitely don't think leaves is bad but yeah it has eggys exact problems from earlier gens of OU.
I'm actually trying a slightly different breed of H-Zoroark right now. Similar spread, but different moves.
@ Choice SpecsTimid Nature | Illusion | Tera Fairy
252 SpAtk / 252 Speed / 6 Def
Shadow Ball
Tera Blast
Flamethrower
U-Turn
I chose Shadow Ball over Bitter Malice for the additional illusion factor, as Shadow has A LOT of Pokemon that can pick it up, and SpDef drops are always nice. U-Turn over Focus Miss for another layer of illusion, and pivot potential (even if it does 0% on average.) Tera Blast vs Hyper Voice is where things get really spicy, though. At base, Tera Blast is STAB. Everything in the game gets it, and it changes alongside of you. You can catch a lot of things off guard, given how wide spread Tera Blast can be.
This thing, on paper, feels like it's going to pull some shenanigans.
annihilape has 5 other pokemon on its team and multiple of them can threaten it with heavy damage. just because it doesn't hit one pokemon doesn't mean it can't get something else to do its dirty work for it. i don't see a world in where annihilape is ever balanced for OU unless for whatever reason, rage fist is banned. it's far too easy for it to snowball out of control if you can't kill it quickly and easily, and having hisuian zoroark does not make it any less broken either. i'd keep the monkey banned for a little while before testing it in OU again
The difference, of course, being that the next highest BP water move, Water Spout, has 75 BP in the sun.
I know there's a lot of hyperbole going around about Walking Wake, but there is really nothing even remotely comparable to how effective Hydro Steam is under weather.
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While I understand what you mean, this is a big deal for a number of reasons. It's a WATER move that works under sun, which completely flips a lot of typical sun counterplay. Sun abusers are typically fire or grass types, but here we have a mon that can switch into a fire move in sun very well, fire off a water attack OR a Flamethrower.
But the icing on the cake is this. Walking Wake can utilize both Sun and Rain very well, sun being much better of the two. These two have clashing playstyles but Wake can use both to deal good damage and get the positive effects of both, with no drawbacks.
I don't think Walking Wake is broken, I want too make that clear. But it is very strong. It's got near perfect coverage with a move slot left over, so it can mold too a team very well. And even if you take it out of the weather, it's still a powerful mon.
It's not even just that Hydro Steam has 120 BP under sun, and how this is something that's never been possible before, and now sun teams not only have very reliable but extremely strong and splashable (heh) Water coverage. It's everything else it gets to cram into its moveset. Draco Meteor? Yep. Flamethrower? Sure, can't let Grass and Steel types get comfortable. Hurricane? The opponent will really regret trying to shut you down with Pelipper. It's coverage is crazy and varied enough to where it can virtually always hit something neutrally at the bare minimum.
At the end of the day, Wake's viability/brokenness will come down to viability of sun teams. Is it great in Sun? Absolutely. But is Sun enough to push it over the edge?
Sun by itself isn't very good and had slipped down to UU before Wake was released. Wake being reliant on a substandard playstyle is something to consider.
Sun by itself isn't very good and had slipped down to UU before Wake was released. Wake being reliant on a substandard playstyle is something to consider.
we are definitely experiencing new toy syndrome with this wake frenzy that's going on, but it REALLY is a good mon.
sun historically struggles to deal with water and dragon types and now you get a strong af water dragon with flamethrower and a water stab that works under sun, which helps you offensively and defensively. especially when you can run this dude with a specs set and still get your speed protosynthesis boost with basically no drawbacks.
Keep in mind that what you're trying to switch into is a STAB, weather and potentially tera boosted attack coming from a pokemon with base 125 special attack holding a choice specs and with a x1.5 speed boost (please use wake with a speed proto boost spread, it's so cheap).
you just dont have a lot of pokemon that can switch into wake, take this move and either take another one or force him out immediately, to prevent it from just clicking the move and fish for a crit. that move somehow has 24 pp and recovery moves only have 8.
sun teams also use roaring moon, tusk and a fire type attacker to pressure and break through water, dragon and ground types (the latter doesn't really matter tho), after all your solar blade tera grass ceruledge is not a hard fit to make alongside another semi-staple like hatterene.
it's not like it's impossible to switch into or anything because there are some switchins and counterplay, but this mon is good by itself and makes sun team more viable once again because it fits like a glove being a past paradox mon with those offensive stats, it's easy to use and is strong as hell, and this is due to that specific water stab being bestowed upon a water dragon past paradox mon.
we will need to adapt at the very least to a new and more threatening sun matchup that now has such a powerful mon with unique assets
Holy hell my last game was suffering. Sun Stall vs my random team of shenanigans.
vs
This was so much suffering. Nothing like a 154 turn battle of trying to break Ting/Scream/Bliss with Corv/Clod/Dirge.
This battle made me so tilted, I'm actually still
over needing to deal with that crap.
Some notable things from that battle, though. Random Max Speed/Max HP support Scream Tail, Proto: SpDef Walking Wake. These really caught me off guard, but the Wake just sorta pooped the bed against Clodsire.
vs
This was so much suffering. Nothing like a 154 turn battle of trying to break Ting/Scream/Bliss with Corv/Clod/Dirge.
This battle made me so tilted, I'm actually still
over needing to deal with that crap.Some notable things from that battle, though. Random Max Speed/Max HP support Scream Tail, Proto: SpDef Walking Wake. These really caught me off guard, but the Wake just sorta pooped the bed against Clodsire.
that's not how assurance works. assurance doubles in power if the target took damage in the same turn before assurance executed, not the user. the only way you can pull that off in singles is if you click it on switch-in while hazards are up or zoro has a life orb.
of course, this doesn't change the fact that ape is still broken, will probably still be broken post-home, and might even stay broken through both dlcs
Crying and screaming and committing seppuku right now. Thanks for correcting me.
Walking Wake is manageable, and it's only been out for a day so we should be patient before calling for action. On the other hand, I'll once again confirm that Garganacl is a bullshit mon that is completely uncompetitive with that stupid move it has, and it should be suspected ASAP. I'm tired of that shit.
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SD 3 Attacks with Booster Energy is alright, I guess?
It's pretty Tera-committal though, because fucking Specs Pult's U-Turn does 75% minimum or something.
Honestly, I've been handling Walking Wake pretty easily thus far. Clod is an amazing check to it, even without committing Tera.
After a day of playing, and this could change depending on developments, I personally think Walking Wake isn't broken. For it to dish out those massive damage rolls everyone keeps posting, it has to be under the effects of Sun, and even with the addition of Walking Wake which has boosted its viability, Sun as an archetype still isn't as consistent as others are. Many of Wake's good checks aren't even niche Pokemon, as shown in Roller K's post below:
I feel if there's anything that's taking Walking Wake "over the edge", it's its ability to demolish offense with Proto-Speed under Sun. Hugely-powerful STABs that not a lot of offensive threats can deal with unless they resist / are immune, all while outspeeding just about everything. I'm interested to see how the meta will continue to develop with its presence, but I don't really think immediate action needs to be taken.
Compare this to Chi-Yu where its power level was nuclear under Sun, but it was still near-impossible to switch in to without it. Chi-Yu also had STABs that had virtually no immunities outside of Flash Fire. Wake has to watch for Water Absorb, Storm Drain, and Fairy-types / Tera Fairy Pokemon, making it much easier to maneuver around.
With the introduction of Walking Wake and Iron Leaves, the meta has already started to adapt quite a lot--and mostly to the former.
Walking Wake is somewhat similar to Iron Bundle in function: same Sp. Atk., slower but still very fast, great offensive STABs to spam Water & Dragon moves, pretty respectable bulk for such an offensive threat, and also a niche in being a Water-type sun abuser. Under the sun, Walking Wake's STAB moves are 120 BP and 130 BP, respectively, and with its great special attack stat paired with a damage-boosting item and even a boost from Protosynthesis, it becomes a fantastic breaker.
Time will tell if it is broken or not, but for now, here are a bunch of defensive and offensive checks! Let me know your thoughts or if you have any other suggestions for me to add to the list. I will also link a PokePaste to some sets I came up with at the bottom of the post.
DEFENSIVE:
Counters
Slowking has the combination of Regenerator and Slack Off that makes it very hard to break, the only problem is it cannot do much back to Wake. Otherwise, it is a very solid pivot that should reliably counter Walking Wake.
Sp. Def. Toxapex serves a similar role to Slowking as a Regenerator pivot. It can also spread Toxic, posing a threat to Wake.
Checks
These Water-types are all decent checks with 2 being immune to Water moves, but a good prediction will cause trouble. Azumarill resists all 3 moves, but it has no reliable recovery; not to mention, sun-boosted Specs Hydro Steam 2HKOs normal Azu sets. Gastrodon is a worse Clod imo since it cannot tank as well on the special side and misses out on Toxic. Vaporeon cannot damage Wake and has to rely on Wish spam & stalling out Draco Meteors. They all are viable picks though, and they offer utility outside of the Wake matchup.
These Fairy-types are immune to Walking Wake's Draco Meteor and can pressure back with Fairy moves while possessing solid enough Sp. Def. to deal with a Water move as well as reliable recovery. Scream Tail outspeeds Wake, both Scream Tail and Sylveon can pass Wishes, both Sylveon and Florges can set up with Calm Mind, and Florges can take advantage of sun spam with the boost in healing from Synthesis.
These Steel-types resist Draco Meteor, have good enough bulk to potentially tank Water moves, tank a Flamethrower, and will be useful outside of Wake matchups. Gholdengo has Recover, and Kingambit can Sucker Punch to deal solid damage.
These Grass-types are quite specially bulky and can kind of check Wake. Both Wo-Chien and Toedscruel can Leech Seed, they both tank Flamethrower easily, and both provide Knock Off support. Toed can also Rapid Spin, set up Spikes, and Spore if need be. Yes, I'm a big Toed enthusiast.
On the off-chance that Wake lost its Choice Specs or is running another item, Cryogonal can actually beat Wake while not being deadweight on the team. Freeze-Dry just barely OHKOs offensive Wake with 8 EVs in Sp. Atk.; it provides Rapid Spin and Haze support; it has reliable recovery; it is a Ground immunity. Very niche but very cool.
Chansey is Blissey but worse. It serves as a check rather than a counter because hazard stacking and/or getting Eviolite Knock'd Off removes its ability to wall reliably. Still an option I guess, so I'll toss it in here.
OFFENSIVE:
Dragapult can use either Draco Meteor or Dragon Darts.
Dragonite can Tera Normal, tank a hit, Dragon Dance up, and outspeed. It can also just Extreme Speed to pick up the kill.
Choice Scarf or Focus Sash Garchomp can use Draco Meteor, Outrage, or Dragon Claw (Wake must be chipped).
Choice Scarf Hydreigon can use Draco Meteor.
Choice Scarf or Focus Sash Glimmora can use Tera Fairy Dazzling Gleam (OHKOs Offensive Wake 37.5% of the time).
Maushold just outspeeds Wake, and it can either go for Population Bomb or use Tidy Up on the switch.
I feel if there's anything that's taking Walking Wake "over the edge", it's its ability to demolish offense with Proto-Speed under Sun. Hugely-powerful STABs that not a lot of offensive threats can deal with unless they resist / are immune, all while outspeeding just about everything. I'm interested to see how the meta will continue to develop with its presence, but I don't really think immediate action needs to be taken.
This is true Rain started being on demand as of recent but, keep in mind it's not like sun was ever below par in terms of just overall credibility in it being viable in OU. Before the Chi-Yu ban it was all the rage. I don't think Sun is sub-standard because you have other Proto abusers to just smack onto the team, like Great Tusk, Roaring Moon, and others.
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