Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion

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I want to ask one thing for those of you who own a physical copy of scarlet/violet.
could you please play test one thing:

does the item clean ammulet prevent the move defog from cleaning hazards?

right now in pokemon showdown the move defog still cleans the hazards but it does not reduce the targets evasion.
I just want someone to confirm that it is not some kind of mistake because I know that there have been instances where moves and items got wrongly implemented here and nobody noticed for years.

if the ability good as gold prevents defog from cleaning hazards then there is a chance this item will do the same.
 

1LDK

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Did you guys know that Good As Gold also blocks trick? speaking of GaG, does somebody has a list of things that GaG blocks?
EDIT: found a list of status moves by bulbapedia, holy shit this is massive, so aside from status moves, taunt, defog and trick/switcheroo, it also blocks (negative status moves)

Captivate, charm, confide, cotton spore, Eeriee Impulse, Feather dance, Growl, kinesis, leer, memento, metal sound, parting shot, play nice, screech, smokescreen, Strengh sap, string shot, Sweet kiss, Sweet sscent, Tearfull Look, torment, tickle, Teater dance, Baby dolls eye, worry seed, tar shot, teater dance, spite, changing type moves like soak or Trick or treat, snactch, simple beam, a whole lots of etc and Whirlwind

So your only option is literally brawling with a mon with 133 special atack that can effectively use Scarf, Specs, NP baloon, I even saw a double screens dengo, yeah, and he got to put up the 2.

Honestly, outside of heavy hitters that can scare him or special walls, your best bet in my opinion is use terra to bait him, because Fore sight (a move who couldve help alot) also got cutted

With that in mind, im gonna lend you all a secret, its my trademarked especiffically invested AV tusk

Great Tusk @ Assault Vest
Ability: Protosynthesis
Tera Type: Steel
EVs: 132 Atk / 144 SpD / 232 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Headlong Rush
- Close Combat
- Rapid Spin
- Knock Off

232 jolly hits 294, outspeeding specs and air baloon by 1 miserable point, AV + 144 makes sure you can take any hit once and clap his Good as Gold ass with a 1 hit EQ (if you want, i went with rush for more power) or you can 2 shot him with knock off
 
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I want to ask one thing for those of you who own a physical copy of scarlet/violet.
could you please play test one thing:

does the item clean ammulet prevent the move defog from cleaning hazards?

right now in pokemon showdown the move defog still cleans the hazards but it does not reduce the targets evasion.
I just want someone to confirm that it is not some kind of mistake because I know that there have been instances where moves and items got wrongly implemented here and nobody noticed for years.

if the ability good as gold prevents defog from cleaning hazards then there is a chance this item will do the same.
Good as Gold negates status moves, while Clear Amulet just negates stat drops like Clear Body. It seems extremely unlikely that it would also negate hazard removal.
 
It really shouldn't matter why Baton Pass was banned or why the Baton Pass Clause exists in the first place. Shed Tail being allowed is a discrepancy with the clause. If we want to be consistent with the clause, Shed Tail the move has to go. Or if we were to keep shed tail, allow an exception to the clause for sub passing. Ofc making that exception then drops you deeper in a rabbit hole like if drypassing should be an allowed which really makes the latter option unappealing. Just ban the move Shed Tail as it's logically easier and more consistent with our current BP clause.
 
It really shouldn't matter why Baton Pass was banned or why the Baton Pass Clause exists in the first place. Shed Tail being allowed is a discrepancy with the clause. If we want to be consistent with the clause, Shed Tail the move has to go. Or if we were to keep shed tail, allow an exception to the clause for sub passing. Ofc making that exception then drops you deeper in a rabbit hole like if drypassing should be an allowed which really makes the latter option unappealing. Just ban the move Shed Tail as it's logically easier and more consistent with our current BP clause.
all baton pass clause means is that baton pass is banned, it doesn't mean that every single move that can pass something to another mon is banned. the reason shed tail is (currently) allowed and baton passing just a sub isn't is cause complex bans are dumb. i want shed tail/cyclizar banned too but this feels like a huge reach imo.
 
Good as Gold negates status moves, while Clear Amulet just negates stat drops like Clear Body. It seems extremely unlikely that it would also negate hazard removal.
testing still needs to be done.
some times the descriptions are misleading.

in gen 5 for years it was wrongly implemented that only the first strike of the multy-strike moves is affected by the gems, in gen 1 it was wrongly implemented for years that body slam paralyzes normal types.(after this was discovered golem dropped straight to NU).
we need to make sure that this item does not in fact prevent defog from cleaning hazards.
(also there is always the possibility that there is some bug in the game which causes the item to prevent defog from cleaning hazards even if the developers didn't intent it to do so).
 
It's said when Annhilape (or at least rage fist) will be banned? I'm pretty sure it's by far the most annoying thing straight away. I've running 252+def Dondozo Tera normal to win 1vs1 but Annihilape's still able to chip down enough for other physical things that Dondozo used to stop.
 
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I want to ask one thing for those of you who own a physical copy of scarlet/violet.
could you please play test one thing:

does the item clean ammulet prevent the move defog from cleaning hazards?

right now in pokemon showdown the move defog still cleans the hazards but it does not reduce the targets evasion.
I just want someone to confirm that it is not some kind of mistake because I know that there have been instances where moves and items got wrongly implemented here and nobody noticed for years.

if the ability good as gold prevents defog from cleaning hazards then there is a chance this item will do the same.
I asked this and turns out no other does not, same as clear body

Good as Gold is coded weirdly, basically denying the move to go off at all, on a side note this fucked up our idea for a super raiding combo of my friend using gold to boost then Mr tossing helping hand for the 1hko and healing him with heal pulse

Turns out Goldyblocks both heal pulse and helping hand too, that narcissistic bastard
 

MANNAT

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If he chooses the wrong moment (for example, when foe's Whirlwind Ting-Lu is still with high health) , the Mon is ruined.
That's a really weird way to frame this, obviously that's a terrible play and a dogshit use of the move, more of a player issue than anything. Generating free sub passes into mons weak to ground in conjunction with Earth Eater is still pretty cheesy and I would rather see how these two mons function without the presence of Shed Tail than deal with the headaches of subpassing. The concept of passing anything to a mon that it is not normally able to fit into its moveset, that has been set up under conditions that it likely could not replicate, is a huge hangup I have with Baton Pass and Shed Tail in general and it's fundamentally uncompetitive to the point where I'd rather just ban the move.
Espeon being unable to be phazed or statused. Yes, Espeon specifically was a very big factor in Baton Pass Ban. With Shed Tail, Espeon still sees almost 0 use due to being unable to abuse it.
I just want to dispute this point completely, because that's not true at all for pretty much any generation that baton pass was banned in. Magic bounce Espeon isn't available at all in DPP OU, where it's banned. In gens 5-8 the strategies were banned due to a slew of abusers that benefitted from even one stat pass, like Agility mons after an SDpass or what have you. Acting like Espeon is even remotely the reason BP got banned is just disingenous as hell.
 
Since Tera is such an important part of the meta right now, and the focus of current tiering decision discussions, I thought I'd bring up a little prompt to see how people are using it and/if the use cases have changed. So:

What are your favorite Terastallization use cases right now?

I'll start with one of my own favorites: Ghost Ting-Lu. I really like this Tera for its sheer flexibility. It's not really used as a hard counter since Ting-Lu obviously has no way to kill Fighting types outright, but the additional turn can allow it to set up hazards or phase out a threatening sweeper. It also is incredibly useful for a surprise Rapid Spin block when Gholdengho is out already (or if you don't want to risk switching it into Great Tusk). And pure ghost is honestly not even the worst type defensively, having rather few weaknesses, although Dark types are common right now.
Since it has multiple uses, I can find a use it for almost every game, which is great when other Tera uses on your team are more situational.

Initially I used a lot of 'Adaptability' Teras, but I'm starting to like defensive and utility uses of Tera more and more.
Tera Steel Garchomp because it turns her weaknesses into resists.
 
How good do you guys think :armarouge: armarouge and :ceruledge: ceruledge are? I've been looking here recently and saw that both had usage above the OU cutoff.

From my admittedly limited experience, these two aren't that threatening and frail, so I'm surprised they got a lot of usage.

Side note, I really like using Scizor right now! Priority is very useful in this metagame and Bullet Punch is great for revenge killing.
Both are pretty bad in OU but will definitely be good in UU. They are just too frail and face way too much competition. The ghost one is definitely the better of the two though.
 

Pluim

formerly goodra4thewin
How good do you guys think :armarouge: armarouge and :ceruledge: ceruledge are? I've been looking here recently and saw that both had usage above the OU cutoff.

From my admittedly limited experience, these two aren't that threatening and frail, so I'm surprised they got a lot of usage.

Side note, I really like using Scizor right now! Priority is very useful in this metagame and Bullet Punch is great for revenge killing.
I think this is likely because they are new and people are trying them out. Ceruledge has SD and fire Drain punch so there is appeal there to use it even if it isn't OU level.
 
Honestly Shed Tail isn't broken. Shed Tail on Cyclizar isn't broken either and has a lot of counter play unless under screens support as well. It is just very good with cyclizar and even if it is too good with cyclizar it absolutely isn't banworthy on Orthworm. Orthworm is really frail both on the special side and slow, so it is very hard to actually pass a sub with it. Even with shed tail Orthworm is likely UU at best and that proves Shed Tail shouldn't be banned and that if tiering action is needed it should be cyclizar banned instead.
 
How good do you guys think :armarouge: armarouge and :ceruledge: ceruledge are? I've been looking here recently and saw that both had usage above the OU cutoff.

From my admittedly limited experience, these two aren't that threatening and frail, so I'm surprised they got a lot of usage.

Side note, I really like using Scizor right now! Priority is very useful in this metagame and Bullet Punch is great for revenge killing.
new toy syndrome
 

awyp

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After playing the meta I agree that Cyclizar has to go.

And no, Orthworm is not broken, I played against him too and the low Speed does matter a lot, only allowing him to fire the move once. If he chooses the wrong moment (for example, when foe's Whirlwind Ting-Lu is still with high health) , the Mon is ruined.
Meanwhile Cyclizar can afford more mistakes due to enormous speed + Regenerator.

Comparison with Baton Pass are fair, but in reality Baton Pass was "broken" mainly due to Stats boost and Espeon being unable to be phazed or statused. Yes, Espeon specifically was a very big factor in Baton Pass Ban. With Shed Tail, Espeon still sees almost 0 use due to being unable to abuse it. Meanwhile actual abussers still have enough counterplay as long as Shed Tail is only used once, aka Orthworm.
What breaks Shed Tail is Cyclizar and Cyclizar only. Of course, if other fast Mons or Mons with gigantic HP or Mons with Regenerator learned the move, then the move would have to be banned.

As of now, unless there is enough evidence provided of Orthworm breaking the meta with Shed Tail, it's Cyclizar alone the one that has to go.
I feel the same way. I do think Shed Tail is a powerful move but if you look at Orthoworm it's just not as good as a user like Cyclizar, in combination of having regenerator it allows it setup multiple times a game and having a very high base speed in usually going first. Orthoworm's only recovery move is Rest, so it limits you from reusing Shed Tail (at least this point of time in the metagame) including it's max positive speed is 251. Also Cyclizar's other moves is what makes it leads better than Orthoworm (The option to Taunt, Knock Off, Ice Spinner, U-Turn and Rapid Spin?)
 
How good do you guys think :armarouge: armarouge and :ceruledge: ceruledge are? I've been looking here recently and saw that both had usage above the OU cutoff.

From my admittedly limited experience, these two aren't that threatening and frail, so I'm surprised they got a lot of usage.

Side note, I really like using Scizor right now! Priority is very useful in this metagame and Bullet Punch is great for revenge killing.
I think they are fine. I prefer screens and/or sun if I'm running them. sometimes Ceruledge just presses SD on a fat team and wins, which is cool, and armor cannon in sun is crazy. otherwise, as was mentioned, they're just not *quite* good enough compared to others.
 
I think the question becomes is Shed Tail just an uncompetetive strategy like arena trap. Hard to say if Diglett and Trapnich were 'broken' in the same way Dugtrio was, but Arena Trap even with them was competetive. Cyclizar needs to banned, and should be banned first over Shed Tail, but I think Orthoworm screens still has the chance to be viable just based on how good the move is. Orthoworm obviously can't do half of what Cyclizar can in terms of Rapid Spin, Taunt, Regen, etc. But it's still a Steel type with 145 defense and a ground immunity, so inconjunction with screens it can definitely force switches, and forcing switches as you Shed Tail is essentially the most powerful application because you're giving a sub to the best possible mon on your team to setup on the thing they swtiched in. It also has access to Stealth Rocks and Spikes, making it not completely useless when not using Shed Tail. Again, a Cycilzar ban first probably makes more sense, but I wouldn't be surprised if it ends up being Shed Tail that's more of the problem.
 
I think the question becomes is Shed Tail just an uncompetetive strategy like arena trap. Hard to say if Diglett and Trapnich were 'broken' in the same way Dugtrio was, but Arena Trap even with them was competetive. Cyclizar needs to banned, and should be banned first over Shed Tail, but I think Orthoworm screens still has the chance to be viable just based on how good the move is. Orthoworm obviously can't do half of what Cyclizar can in terms of Rapid Spin, Taunt, Regen, etc. But it's still a Steel type with 145 defense and a ground immunity, so inconjunction with screens it can definitely force switches, and forcing switches as you Shed Tail is essentially the most powerful application because you're giving a sub to the best possible mon on your team to setup on the thing they swtiched in. It also has access to Stealth Rocks and Spikes, making it not completely useless when not using Shed Tail. Again, a Cycilzar ban first probably makes more sense, but I wouldn't be surprised if it ends up being Shed Tail that's more of the problem.
I would like to first ask why cyclizar needs to be banned, because it's not that powerful. Is it because it's annoying? It's not dominant in high ratings. It doesn't have a high useage. It doesn't have a win rate above 50%. Banning it also wouldn't fundamentally change the meta much, other than maybe hurt dragapult's useage. Is the argument that cyclizar isn't skill based? Because I feel like it offers a lot of decision making to better players.
 
I would like to first ask why cyclizar needs to be banned, because it's not that powerful. Is it because it's annoying? It's not dominant in high ratings. It doesn't have a high useage. It doesn't have a win rate above 50%. Banning it also wouldn't fundamentally change the meta much, other than maybe hurt dragapult's useage.
Idk where you're getting that data from, cuz anecdotally it feels like cyclizar is in every other team and game, and often ends up helping decide it with free Setup or utility. Even if it is true, winrate and usage doesn't matter if something is broken, which we do think Cyclizar is.

I'd also like to second the people saying its a Cyclizar problem, not a Shed Tail problem. Orthworm doesn't have Regenerator, an amazing Speed tier, and every utility move known to man, and so while it's shed tail is dangerous, it's not broken IMO. If cyclizar gets banned and it's still a problem, I'll eat my words tho lmao
 
Idk where you're getting that data from, cuz anecdotally it feels like cyclizar is in every other team and game. Even if it is true, winrate and usage doesn't matter if something is broken, which we do think Cyclizar is.

I'd also like to second the people saying its a Cyclizar problem, not a Shed Tail problem. Orthworm doesn't have Regenerator, an amazing Speed tier, and every utility move known to man, and so while it's shed tail is dangerous, it's not broken IMO. If cyclizar gets banned and it's still a problem, I'll eat my words tho lmao
http://pucko.info/pokeStats?format=gen9ou&time=day

I would also suggest for people in this thread to log into the client and actually watch matches over 1500 or 1600 so they can get a better understanding of how the game is actually being played at high ratings.
 
http://pucko.info/pokeStats?format=gen9ou&time=day

I would also suggest for people in this thread to log into the client and actually watch matches over 1500 or 1600 so they can get a better understanding of how the game is actually being played at high ratings.
Okay, saying it doesn't have a win rate of 50% when it has a win rate of 48.62% is kind of funny lmfao

Also, win rate doesn't matter if a lot of people are using the mon, which at 17%, they are.

Also also, I promise that people on this thread know how the game is played. Instead of saying shit like that, can you detail why you don't think Cyclizar is broken beyond usage stats? What's your general gameplan to deal with it? I am curious, because I feel like I struggle a lot with it and would love advice if you have any.
 
Okay, saying it doesn't have a win rate of 50% when it has a win rate of 48.62% is kind of funny lmfao

Also, win rate doesn't matter if a lot of people are using the mon, which at 17%, they are.

Also also, I promise that people on this thread know how the game is played. Instead of saying shit like that, can you detail why you don't think Cyclizar is broken beyond usage stats? What's your general gameplan to deal with it? I am curious, because I feel like I struggle a lot with it and would love advice if you have any.
Yes, people are using it. But by far the one pokemon that is driving everything in the metagame is gholdengo, and to a lesser extent great tusk. So if cyclizar got banned literally nothing would change. At high ratings it's not seeing that high of useage.

edit: The counterplay is to not use passive mons. Right now the meta seems to be using a lot of bulky pokemon that have some way to hit back hard. Basically, if everything can break sub then it's not that useful of a pokemon.
 
I just realized I didn't read the first question good enough- the logic behind banning Cyclizar is that it enables a lot of broken shit with very little good counterplay. DD Dragonite is the one that comes to mind, since the sub tail does benefit from Multiscale, but Bulk Up Annihilape, DD Dragapult (which is otherwise a pretty bad set rn lmao), and generally any setup sweeper can just end the game immediately and safely.
 
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