You're right it doesn't wall dark pulse I wasn't factoring in the ability, I haven't actually used it but just considered it. So probably not a good option.
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Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion
- Thread starter TPP
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252 SpA Choice Specs Chi-Yu Fire Blast vs. 200 HP / 56+ SpD Blissey in Sun: 280-330 (39.9 - 47%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Chi-Yu Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 252 SpD Eviolite Chansey in Sun: 213-252 (33.2 - 39.3%) -- 100% chance to 3HKO
Why would you run max hp on Blissey and Chansey
252 SpA Choice Specs Chi-Yu Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 252 SpD Eviolite Chansey in Sun: 213-252 (33.2 - 39.3%) -- 100% chance to 3HKO
Why would you run max hp on Blissey and Chansey
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Plus, this isn't even in Sun as intended by the original discussion starter.
Did some optimization for Sandy Shocks on a sun team. 48 HP EVs means it doesn't even take half damage from Kingambit's sucker punch (not factoring supreme overlord)
252+ Atk Kingambit Sucker Punch vs. 48 HP / 0 Def Sandy Shocks: 133-157 (41.1 - 48.6%) -- 9.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Meanwhile on Sand's end:
208 SpA Choice Specs Sandy Shocks Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Kingambit: 462-546 (114.3 - 135.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
208 special attack hits 330 (495 with specs, a 16 stat point difference from full special attack EV investment), while 252 speed with Timid hits 331, allowing protosynthesis to boost that stat under sun, making Sand a pokemon with both a scarf and a specs at the same time and reap the benefits of both. Couple that with a movepool consisting of Tera Blast Grass, Volt Switch, Earth Power, and Thunderbolt, and you got a mon that can shred Clodozo and all the other mons I listed in the non-sun team version that ran Tera Ice plus Rotom-W and Quagsire due to only having to give up 44 Special Attack EV's, which is barely enough to let it not kill its key targets.
Pair this with Chi-Yu, Corviknight, Torkoal, and some other mons that let you deal with Chien-Pao and a physical attacker in case Chi-Yu dies early so you aren't screwed to Blissey, and you got yourself a very scary looking sun team. Still think outside of sun, the Tera Ice specs/scarf set would be better, but in sun, this sounds absolutely horrifying to face with the right support.
252+ Atk Kingambit Sucker Punch vs. 48 HP / 0 Def Sandy Shocks: 133-157 (41.1 - 48.6%) -- 9.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Meanwhile on Sand's end:
208 SpA Choice Specs Sandy Shocks Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Kingambit: 462-546 (114.3 - 135.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
208 special attack hits 330 (495 with specs, a 16 stat point difference from full special attack EV investment), while 252 speed with Timid hits 331, allowing protosynthesis to boost that stat under sun, making Sand a pokemon with both a scarf and a specs at the same time and reap the benefits of both. Couple that with a movepool consisting of Tera Blast Grass, Volt Switch, Earth Power, and Thunderbolt, and you got a mon that can shred Clodozo and all the other mons I listed in the non-sun team version that ran Tera Ice plus Rotom-W and Quagsire due to only having to give up 44 Special Attack EV's, which is barely enough to let it not kill its key targets.
Pair this with Chi-Yu, Corviknight, Torkoal, and some other mons that let you deal with Chien-Pao and a physical attacker in case Chi-Yu dies early so you aren't screwed to Blissey, and you got yourself a very scary looking sun team. Still think outside of sun, the Tera Ice specs/scarf set would be better, but in sun, this sounds absolutely horrifying to face with the right support.
Original question was just specs. If there's sun up, nothing can wall it at all outside of something with flash fire or another ability that gives immunity/reduction. Some pokes with resistances probably could as well if they're extremely specialized.
Honestly having tried stall for the first time lately, I completely understand the appeal. It's fun in such a diabolical way, you end up feeling like such a shithead when they can't break through and it's great lol
Annoying when I'm not running chomp, but it's very funny switching into it with chomp when it uses pop bomb.
I think Scizor is really good and fun despite losing a lot of options in the generation shift. Losing Roost and Defog basically kills defensive Sciz, but that's okay: Sciz happens to be quite well-positioned with a lot of its defensive answers being exploitable or easy to wear down.
I think the best-positioned set at the moment looks something like this:
Scizor @ Life Orb / Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Technician
Tera Type: Steel
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Bullet Punch
- Close Combat / Thief
- Quick Attack / Thief / U-Turn
Full credit to tigers jaw for enlightening me on how good LO SD is atm, this thing's actually kinda nutty with the right support. It doesn't rely on Tera to sweep, which is an advantage compared to other setup sweepers like Roaring Moon or Dragonite.
You can experiment with different EV spreads and Tera types (Tera Water seems like it'd be cool defensively or you could try Tera Dark or something to prevent Sucker revenge kills and bolster Thief damage), but I think keeping it simple and maximizing Bullet Punch damage is generally going to serve you best, considering how much damage this thing can do even to resists.
Against common physically defensive mons:
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Technician Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clodsire: 274-325 (59 - 70%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock and 3 layers of Spikes
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Scizor Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Great Tusk: 222-263 (51.1 - 60.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Technician Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Great Tusk: 168-199 (38.7 - 45.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and 3 layers of Spikes
252+ Atk Life Orb Scizor Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Iron Treads: 320-377 (99.6 - 117.4%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Technician Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Iron Treads: 120-140 (37.3 - 43.6%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO after 3 layers of Spikes
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Technician Scizor Thief vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Iron Treads: 239-282 (74.4 - 87.8%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO after 3 layers of Spikes
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Technician Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 252 HP / 120 Def Annihilape: 292-344 (68.8 - 81.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock and 3 layers of Spikes [most run less Def than this, and it's an easy mon to chip, and it can't touch you without Bulk Up boosts or high Rage Fist BP]
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Scizor Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 120 Def Water type Annihilape: 390-459 (91.9 - 108.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock [if it's Tera Water'd to resist Bullet Punch]
252+ Atk Life Orb Scizor U-turn vs. 252 HP / 120 Def Water type Annihilape: 172-203 (40.5 - 47.8%) -- 53.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock [so if you're U-turned, it's heavily discouraged from Tera Watering as then it can no longer get Rage Fist BP off of U-turns]
Against Gholdengo:
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Technician Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gholdengo: 146-172 (46.3 - 54.6%) -- 59.4% chance to 2HKO
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Adaptability Technician Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gholdengo: 195-230 (61.9 - 73%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
It's not like Gholdengo is hard to chip in a lot of games. Or if you catch it with a Thief:
252+ Atk Life Orb Technician Scizor Thief vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gholdengo: 294-346 (93.3 - 109.8%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO
Skeledirge is Scizor's biggest enemy, but it happens to take a lot as well:
252+ Atk Life Orb Technician Scizor Thief vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skeledirge: 203-239 (49.2 - 58%) -- 96.9% chance to 2HKO
Of course Dondozo is an issue as well. Thankfully, it's fairly exploitable, so you can smack it with U-Turn and actually chip it for a decent amount, or pick it off with a couple CCs if it's weakened:
252+ Atk Life Orb Scizor U-turn vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Dondozo: 109-129 (21.6 - 25.5%) -- 0.5% chance to 4HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Scizor Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Dondozo: 123-146 (24.4 - 28.9%) -- 98.9% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock, 3 layers of Spikes, and Leftovers recovery
Quick Attack may seem like a strange option but it's pretty solid right now with the slew of Steel-resistant revenge killers in the tier:
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Technician Scizor Quick Attack vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Volcarona: 264-311 (84.8 - 100%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO [screw Flame Body though]
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Technician Scizor Quick Attack vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Iron Moth: 282-333 (93.6 - 110.6%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Technician Scizor Quick Attack vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Chi-Yu: 225-265 (89.6 - 105.5%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO
Obviously all of those are guaranteed if they aren't Boots and you have Rocks up.
And this is a calc many of you are probably familiar with from gen 8, but worth mentioning again:
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Scizor Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Corviknight: 260-307 (65 - 76.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
I don't think most Corvis are max Defense right now (they want a little bit to soft-check mons like special Iron Valiant and Dragapult), so in practice, you might not even need this much chip to OHKO; and even if you can't get that chip, most Corvis can't really cripple you, just try to wear you down:
252+ Def Corviknight Body Press vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Scizor: 83-98 (29.5 - 34.8%) -- 13.7% chance to 3HKO
0 Atk Corviknight Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Scizor: 115-136 (40.9 - 48.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
And of course, naturally you're a great revenge killer against many Steel-weak or chipped threats:
252+ Atk Life Orb Technician Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Espathra: 212-251 (53.8 - 63.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Adaptability Technician Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Espathra: 283-335 (71.8 - 85%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Technician Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Roaring Moon: 187-220 (53.2 - 62.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Life Orb Adaptability Technician Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Roaring Moon: 250-294 (71.2 - 83.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Life Orb Chien-Pao Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Scizor: 208-246 (74 - 87.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO [calc doesn't have Sword of Ruin implemented yet AFAICT so had to manually lower Sciz's defense]
252+ Atk Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Chien-Pao: 260-308 (86.3 - 102.3%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO [guaranteed with Life Orb or Stealth Rock]
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Technician Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clodsire: 274-325 (59 - 70%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock and 3 layers of Spikes
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Scizor Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Great Tusk: 222-263 (51.1 - 60.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Technician Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Great Tusk: 168-199 (38.7 - 45.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and 3 layers of Spikes
252+ Atk Life Orb Scizor Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Iron Treads: 320-377 (99.6 - 117.4%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Technician Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Iron Treads: 120-140 (37.3 - 43.6%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO after 3 layers of Spikes
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Technician Scizor Thief vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Iron Treads: 239-282 (74.4 - 87.8%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO after 3 layers of Spikes
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Technician Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 252 HP / 120 Def Annihilape: 292-344 (68.8 - 81.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock and 3 layers of Spikes [most run less Def than this, and it's an easy mon to chip, and it can't touch you without Bulk Up boosts or high Rage Fist BP]
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Scizor Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 120 Def Water type Annihilape: 390-459 (91.9 - 108.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock [if it's Tera Water'd to resist Bullet Punch]
252+ Atk Life Orb Scizor U-turn vs. 252 HP / 120 Def Water type Annihilape: 172-203 (40.5 - 47.8%) -- 53.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock [so if you're U-turned, it's heavily discouraged from Tera Watering as then it can no longer get Rage Fist BP off of U-turns]
Against Gholdengo:
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Technician Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gholdengo: 146-172 (46.3 - 54.6%) -- 59.4% chance to 2HKO
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Adaptability Technician Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gholdengo: 195-230 (61.9 - 73%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
It's not like Gholdengo is hard to chip in a lot of games. Or if you catch it with a Thief:
252+ Atk Life Orb Technician Scizor Thief vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gholdengo: 294-346 (93.3 - 109.8%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO
Skeledirge is Scizor's biggest enemy, but it happens to take a lot as well:
252+ Atk Life Orb Technician Scizor Thief vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skeledirge: 203-239 (49.2 - 58%) -- 96.9% chance to 2HKO
Of course Dondozo is an issue as well. Thankfully, it's fairly exploitable, so you can smack it with U-Turn and actually chip it for a decent amount, or pick it off with a couple CCs if it's weakened:
252+ Atk Life Orb Scizor U-turn vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Dondozo: 109-129 (21.6 - 25.5%) -- 0.5% chance to 4HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Scizor Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Dondozo: 123-146 (24.4 - 28.9%) -- 98.9% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock, 3 layers of Spikes, and Leftovers recovery
Quick Attack may seem like a strange option but it's pretty solid right now with the slew of Steel-resistant revenge killers in the tier:
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Technician Scizor Quick Attack vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Volcarona: 264-311 (84.8 - 100%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO [screw Flame Body though]
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Technician Scizor Quick Attack vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Iron Moth: 282-333 (93.6 - 110.6%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Technician Scizor Quick Attack vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Chi-Yu: 225-265 (89.6 - 105.5%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO
Obviously all of those are guaranteed if they aren't Boots and you have Rocks up.
And this is a calc many of you are probably familiar with from gen 8, but worth mentioning again:
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Scizor Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Corviknight: 260-307 (65 - 76.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
I don't think most Corvis are max Defense right now (they want a little bit to soft-check mons like special Iron Valiant and Dragapult), so in practice, you might not even need this much chip to OHKO; and even if you can't get that chip, most Corvis can't really cripple you, just try to wear you down:
252+ Def Corviknight Body Press vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Scizor: 83-98 (29.5 - 34.8%) -- 13.7% chance to 3HKO
0 Atk Corviknight Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Scizor: 115-136 (40.9 - 48.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
And of course, naturally you're a great revenge killer against many Steel-weak or chipped threats:
252+ Atk Life Orb Technician Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Espathra: 212-251 (53.8 - 63.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Adaptability Technician Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Espathra: 283-335 (71.8 - 85%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Technician Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Roaring Moon: 187-220 (53.2 - 62.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Life Orb Adaptability Technician Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Roaring Moon: 250-294 (71.2 - 83.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Life Orb Chien-Pao Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Scizor: 208-246 (74 - 87.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO [calc doesn't have Sword of Ruin implemented yet AFAICT so had to manually lower Sciz's defense]
252+ Atk Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Chien-Pao: 260-308 (86.3 - 102.3%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO [guaranteed with Life Orb or Stealth Rock]
Scizor's typing boasts a famous amount of resists, which makes it an adept one-time check to a lot of stuff. Considering that this bug is best fit for Spikes-stack priority-spam offense, only being able to be used defensively once or twice is often sufficient. You do have to watch out for chip, though; between Rocky Helmet, Garchomp, and all of the hazard spam right now, it's very easy for LO Sciz to kill itself or get put in range of some faster priority (since unfortunately, most priority users are faster than Scizor and can try to out-predict it with Sucker or what-have-you). Heavy-Duty Boots is an interesting option in light of this to reduce the amount of chip you take in general, and with hazardspam being so prominent, it's very appreciated. U-Turn should run Boots for sure, and it's an option worth considering even if you don't run it.
As far as teams: as mentioned, this thing is great on teams that have lots of sources of chip, so Gholdengo Spikes, priority, and VoltTurn all work well with it. Cyclizar is great as well, of course. I actually don't think it pairs super well with screens because most SDs come off of forced switches or willingly taking 65% from a neutral attack rather than explicitly creating set-up situations, and since more SDs don't really help you much anyway (Dondozo and Skeledirge wall you either way, Suckers still revenge you, and more SDs = less health = die to LO/hazard/Helmet chip faster). Definitely make sure you can exploit Gholdengo, Dondozo, and Skeledirge in some way if you run this mon since those are some pretty common switch-ins. A cool, HO-suited partner is Espathra since it sets up on most of those and takes advantage of Gholdengo being chipped.
A lot of offense teams rn rely on Gholdengo to blanket check Fairies and take the occassional Ice move, but they also rely on it for a ton of other stuff; Scizor lightens the load a lot there while also being a solid revenge killer and a real threat in its own right. Really cool mon right now.
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So today i tried to make balance and oh god its so bad, maybe its just me but none of my 6 mons have enough ev´s and moves to do shiet man, Chien-Pao just clicks Ice Shard 7 times and pum, team died, Gholdengo clicks Nasty Plot then oh fuck Make it rain? more like Make it stop, glimmora just lays enough layers of hazzards to make cake and as soon as i get my offensive mon on the tier i just make 1 mistake and now my offensive line is dead, with that being said, i found a little gem
Iron Valiant @ Expert Belt
Ability: Quark Drive
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Spirit Break
- Drain Punch
- Knock Off
- Poison Jab
To bluff choice band while having enough power to do shit, i dont like SD because i cant make enough slots, it helps that valiant its already strong so i can run Drain Punch and sweep harder
Iron Valiant @ Expert Belt
Ability: Quark Drive
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Spirit Break
- Drain Punch
- Knock Off
- Poison Jab
To bluff choice band while having enough power to do shit, i dont like SD because i cant make enough slots, it helps that valiant its already strong so i can run Drain Punch and sweep harder
I've been theory crafting a Sun Build as well and I wanted to ask/address something related to this:
This video shows Roaring Moon getting an attack boost from Protosynthesis because of its base stats factored in before the Choice Scarf. That's how people are theory crafting it.
Has anyone tested if this is how its handled in SV cartridge gameplay or just on showdown? It seems strange to only consider the base stats before the Choice boost. Wanted to make sure I understood how it works.
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alephgalactus
Banned deucer.
Here is a comprehensive list of things that don’t get 2HKO’d by fully invested Specs Chi-Yu in sun (with the moveset Overheat/Fire Blast/Flamethrower/Dark Pulse) if it has Tera Fire. (Note that this list doesn’t take defensive Terastallization into account):
- Tyranitar, by merit of bringing out sand instead
- Fully invested Coalossal
- Dachsbun with some Sp. Def investment
- Flash Fire Houndoom with some Sp. Def investment
- AV Mimikyu with heavy Sp. Def investment
- That’s it
- Thick Fat Azumarill
- Blissey with some Sp. Def investment
- Fully invested Dondozo with Leftovers
- Fully invested Dragalge with Leftovers
- Fully invested Multiscale Dragonite
- Fully invested Garganacl with Leftovers
- Fully invested Gastrodon with Leftovers
- AV Goodra
- AV Thick Fat Hariyama
- Fully invested Thick Fat Oinkologne-F
- Fully invested Roaring Moon
- Fully invested AV Paldean Tauros (Fire or Water)
- Fully invested AV Ting-Lu
- Vaporeon with Sp. Def investment
- Tyranitar
- Dondozo
- Garganacl
- Gastrodon
- Possibly Sp. Def Blissey
- Maybe AV Ting-Lu
- uhhhhhh
- oh no
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from what I’m understanding, the paradox abilities will take effect on whatever the highest stat is by default before items are considered. As for testing in the game itself, that’s beyond my knowledge, but it’s highly likely that’s the case there too, otherwise chances are we would’ve found out already, given its been a solid week now. Would’ve been found before we discovered 1.3x boost to other stats and 1.5x to speed imo.
alephgalactus
Banned deucer.
I run Water Absorb because I’m already running Unaware on Dondozo.
1. HO > BO > stall > balanceDid you know that Finchinator is a secret boss in Scarlet and Violet? Here's my proof:
Just so this isn't a total joke post, I'll leave some questions for discussion:
1) Hyper Offense
2) Bulky Offense
3) Balance
4) Stall
1. Rank the above in terms of how much you prefer the above playstyles and how effective/good they are in your opinion (1 being the best and 4 being the worst)
2. What Pokemon do you think are staples for each playstyle, or are very good for each specific playstyle?
3. What are some fun pokemon you like for each playstyle, or for some playstyles
4. Most overrated Pokemon in your opinion?
5. Most underrated Pokemon in your opinion?
6. Favorite new Generation 9 pokemon to use?
7. Favorite returning Pokemon from Gens 1-8 to use?
8. Have you tried out any of the new items? If so, are there any you like or any that are making a solid impact in OU?
9. On a scale of 1-10, how much are you enjoying SV OU, with 1 being the least and 10 being the most?
10. On a scale of 1-10, how competitive do you find SV OU, with 1 being the least competitive and 10 being the most competitive?
Thanks again for all of the discussion so far. Keep up the good work, keep having fun, and myself and all of the mods and the council look forward to seeing what you all have to share in the near future. Have a nice day :]
2. clodsire is really good for stall, cyclizar and glimmora are good for ho
4. ceruledge is really bad, it does nothing and dies
5. breloom smashes a lot of the metagame and has a really fast spore
6. quaquaval is fun af bc aqua step + rapid spin + moxie
9. 6-7 ish
Haven’t experimented too much with it yet, but I found Tera fire with Tera blast helpful for getting past usual checks to Scizor so you should give that a tryI think Scizor is really good and fun despite losing a lot of options in the generation shift. Losing Roost and Defog basically kills defensive Sciz, but that's okay: Sciz happens to be quite well-positioned with a lot of its defensive answers being exploitable or easy to wear down.
I think the best-positioned set at the moment looks something like this:
Scizor @ Life Orb / Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Technician
Tera Type: Steel
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Bullet Punch
- Close Combat / Thief
- Quick Attack / Thief / U-Turn
Full credit to tigers jaw for enlightening me on how good LO SD is atm, this thing's actually kinda nutty with the right support. It doesn't rely on Tera to sweep, which is an advantage compared to other setup sweepers like Roaring Moon or Dragonite.
You can experiment with different EV spreads and Tera types (Tera Water seems like it'd be cool defensively or you could try Tera Dark or something to prevent Sucker revenge kills and bolster Thief damage), but I think keeping it simple and maximizing Bullet Punch damage is generally going to serve you best, considering how much damage this thing can do even to resists.
Against common physically defensive mons:
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Technician Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clodsire: 274-325 (59 - 70%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock and 3 layers of Spikes
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Scizor Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Great Tusk: 222-263 (51.1 - 60.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Technician Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Great Tusk: 168-199 (38.7 - 45.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and 3 layers of Spikes
252+ Atk Life Orb Scizor Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Iron Treads: 320-377 (99.6 - 117.4%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Technician Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Iron Treads: 120-140 (37.3 - 43.6%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO after 3 layers of Spikes
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Technician Scizor Thief vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Iron Treads: 239-282 (74.4 - 87.8%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO after 3 layers of Spikes
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Technician Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 252 HP / 120 Def Annihilape: 292-344 (68.8 - 81.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock and 3 layers of Spikes [most run less Def than this, and it's an easy mon to chip, and it can't touch you without Bulk Up boosts or high Rage Fist BP]
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Scizor Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 120 Def Water type Annihilape: 390-459 (91.9 - 108.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock [if it's Tera Water'd to resist Bullet Punch]
252+ Atk Life Orb Scizor U-turn vs. 252 HP / 120 Def Water type Annihilape: 172-203 (40.5 - 47.8%) -- 53.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock [so if you're U-turned, it's heavily discouraged from Tera Watering as then it can no longer get Rage Fist BP off of U-turns]
Against Gholdengo:
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Technician Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gholdengo: 146-172 (46.3 - 54.6%) -- 59.4% chance to 2HKO
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Adaptability Technician Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gholdengo: 195-230 (61.9 - 73%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
It's not like Gholdengo is hard to chip in a lot of games. Or if you catch it with a Thief:
252+ Atk Life Orb Technician Scizor Thief vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gholdengo: 294-346 (93.3 - 109.8%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO
Skeledirge is Scizor's biggest enemy, but it happens to take a lot as well:
252+ Atk Life Orb Technician Scizor Thief vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skeledirge: 203-239 (49.2 - 58%) -- 96.9% chance to 2HKO
Of course Dondozo is an issue as well. Thankfully, it's fairly exploitable, so you can smack it with U-Turn and actually chip it for a decent amount, or pick it off with a couple CCs if it's weakened:
252+ Atk Life Orb Scizor U-turn vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Dondozo: 109-129 (21.6 - 25.5%) -- 0.5% chance to 4HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Scizor Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Dondozo: 123-146 (24.4 - 28.9%) -- 98.9% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock, 3 layers of Spikes, and Leftovers recovery
Quick Attack may seem like a strange option but it's pretty solid right now with the slew of Steel-resistant revenge killers in the tier:
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Technician Scizor Quick Attack vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Volcarona: 264-311 (84.8 - 100%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO [screw Flame Body though]
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Technician Scizor Quick Attack vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Iron Moth: 282-333 (93.6 - 110.6%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Technician Scizor Quick Attack vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Chi-Yu: 225-265 (89.6 - 105.5%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO
Obviously all of those are guaranteed if they aren't Boots and you have Rocks up.
And this is a calc many of you are probably familiar with from gen 8, but worth mentioning again:
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Scizor Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Corviknight: 260-307 (65 - 76.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
I don't think most Corvis are max Defense right now (they want a little bit to soft-check mons like special Iron Valiant and Dragapult), so in practice, you might not even need this much chip to OHKO; and even if you can't get that chip, most Corvis can't really cripple you, just try to wear you down:
252+ Def Corviknight Body Press vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Scizor: 83-98 (29.5 - 34.8%) -- 13.7% chance to 3HKO
0 Atk Corviknight Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Scizor: 115-136 (40.9 - 48.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
And of course, naturally you're a great revenge killer against many Steel-weak or chipped threats:
252+ Atk Life Orb Technician Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Espathra: 212-251 (53.8 - 63.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Adaptability Technician Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Espathra: 283-335 (71.8 - 85%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Technician Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Roaring Moon: 187-220 (53.2 - 62.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Life Orb Adaptability Technician Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Roaring Moon: 250-294 (71.2 - 83.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Life Orb Chien-Pao Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Scizor: 208-246 (74 - 87.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO [calc doesn't have Sword of Ruin implemented yet AFAICT so had to manually lower Sciz's defense]
252+ Atk Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Chien-Pao: 260-308 (86.3 - 102.3%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO [guaranteed with Life Orb or Stealth Rock]
Scizor's typing boasts a famous amount of resists, which makes it an adept one-time check to a lot of stuff. Considering that this bug is best fit for Spikes-stack priority-spam offense, only being able to be used defensively once or twice is often sufficient. You do have to watch out for chip, though; between Rocky Helmet, Garchomp, and all of the hazard spam right now, it's very easy for LO Sciz to kill itself or get put in range of some faster priority (since unfortunately, most priority users are faster than Scizor and can try to out-predict it with Sucker or what-have-you). Heavy-Duty Boots is an interesting option in light of this to reduce the amount of chip you take in general, and with hazardspam being so prominent, it's very appreciated. U-Turn should run Boots for sure, and it's an option worth considering even if you don't run it.
As far as teams: as mentioned, this thing is great on teams that have lots of sources of chip, so Gholdengo Spikes, priority, and VoltTurn all work well with it. Cyclizar is great as well, of course. I actually don't think it pairs super well with screens because most SDs come off of forced switches or willingly taking 65% from a neutral attack rather than explicitly creating set-up situations, and since more SDs don't really help you much anyway (Dondozo and Skeledirge wall you either way, Suckers still revenge you, and more SDs = less health = die to LO/hazard/Helmet chip faster). Definitely make sure you can exploit Gholdengo, Dondozo, and Skeledirge in some way if you run this mon since those are some pretty common switch-ins. A cool, HO-suited partner is Espathra since it sets up on most of those and takes advantage of Gholdengo being chipped.
A lot of offense teams rn rely on Gholdengo to blanket check Fairies and take the occassional Ice move, but they also rely on it for a ton of other stuff; Scizor lightens the load a lot there while also being a solid revenge killer and a real threat in its own right. Really cool mon right now.
1)TPP's survey post said:
Balance - Balance is king in this sort of meta. There are several new ways to spin it at the moment, with things like Gholdengo stack and the several new Unaware walls (Skeledirge, Clodsire, DONDOZO) helping out immensely in regards to hyper offense matchups. There are a few things that balance can struggle with, notably some of the stronger wallbreakers like Chi-Yu and the CB Fightings, but there's usually a way to tech Tera, slap a Ghost type, find obscure defensive counterplay such as Tyranitar, or find a more offensive way around these guys (such as Normal Tera DNite). Balance has some good wincons too like Garganacl and Annihilape that can slot in nicely for specific roles. Balance also has the easiest time into Glimmora leads - in most cases, you can often force 1 hazard with a strong attacker, then absorb TSpikes with Clodsire / Toxapex / Amoonguss. It's the style where fitting a Poison-type is probably easiest.
Hyper Offense - Sucks into the several new Unawares but as long as you have a good offensive adaptation for that (i.e Taunt Roaring Moon, packing one of the super hard to wall breakers like Chi-Yu, or just having different ways to break outside of setup), then you're pretty solid into the metagame as a whole. Just make sure to think outside of the HO box when trying to build around the balance matchup.
Stall - Benefits a ton from the new walls added but unlike balance, not having a solid offensive presence really makes you crumble to chip damage from the likes of Gholdengo spikestacks (with actually good Knock Off users). You also tend to lose out on a fair bit of variety compared to balance due to many of the best tanks lacking recovery, and general wishpassers / clerics in this metagame being borderline impossible to slot.
Bulky Offense - Tried building this time and time again but it often just ends up like more angular balance with a lot more matchup issues than it really should have. Dragapult is kind of a godsend for comps like this but unfortunately it's not enough to make them seem like worse balances to me. There are a notable lack of defensive pivots in this meta, and what defensive pivots do exist either tend to be without good enough defensive support like Corviknight, want to run another set like Iron Hands, or generally end up being a momentum sink into another threat like Volcarona, Chi-Yu or Dragonite. Perhaps I am wrong on this - if someone can give me a good example of BO in this meta I will happily change my mind but as for now, I don't really like it.
2)
Balance: Corviknight / Dondozo / Dragonite / Iron Hands
Corviknight is the only real pivot in this meta (and has the ability to Defog whenever possible), Dondozo is immensely fat on the physical side and practically blanks even the strongest of physical attackers, even if only for a short while, Dragonite is an excellent general utility bot that also provides an excellent check to Chi-Yu (alongside the Ground slot, usually), and Iron Hands is just a fantastic offensive presence with a great all-around defensive profile - the best tank to have on these sorts of comps.
Hyper Offense:
I don't think there are really any staples here. Perhaps Roaring Moon is about the closest I can think of, but even that has several other replacements (Dragonite, Dragapult) that do vaguely similar roles without stacking Fighting-type weaknesses. Glimmora + Gholdengo HOs are a bit overrated IMO, I'd rather try out Great Tusk leads with more scattered offensive presences.
Stall: Blissey / Gholdengo / Clodsire
Blissey is the only cleric in the game. I think there's probably a good way to make Blob-less stall, but it's probably going to have to involve something like Dragonite or SpDef Roaring Moon to really take off. Gholdengo is useful for generally making progress via Spikes + NP presence. Clodsire is a great Spiker and also provides checks to several scary threats like Iron Valiant, Chi-Yu, Volcarona, opposing Gholdengo, and several other misc special attackers I can't be bothered to list.
Bulky Offense: Corviknight / Dragapult / Iron Hands
Pretty much similar to balance except Dragapult is a bit more useful for a more pivoty comp.
3) Balance has a ton of mons you can realistically use as utility. I really do like Skeledirge balances - they provide you with a bulky Unaware to stop setup, whilst also providing you with a fairly punishing stallbreaker which can get several boosts unchecked. Do pair this with Tyranitar or SpDef Dragonite if you do though - the biggest flaw I see with Skeledirge balances is that they all tend to fold to Chi-Yu very quickly. The other thing I have yet to look into is Cyclizar balance, which might actually be more deadly than Cyclizar offense, merely due to how much easier it is to get a resisted Sub with Cyclizar + Cyclizar is a pretty good role compressor already.
I unfortunately don't have many funny mons for other playstyles as I haven't felt nearly as comfortable with them.
4) Glimmora. Once someone realizes special attackers tend to do quite well into Glimmora, the value of it goes down immensely, as it can only really get up Stealth Rock effectively. I also think you commit far too much to the hazard game if you run this, and things like 6 boots stall, Iron Treads bulky offense, and Great Tusk leads give you a hard time.
5) Iron Hands. The trading machine. This thing basically can check anything in the game at least once with the right set, and often times the more offensive ones have this kind of value too. It has several ways to be played as well - though my flavour of this week is Choice Band, you can also run things like Helmet pivot, ID BP, Booster SD (either offensive or defensive) and Lefties + Protect. AV is an unset though, sorry :<
6) See above
7) Dragonite probably - it solves so many issues in building right now and I rely on it as a bit of a crutch, not gonna lie. The moment people start running more Tera Dondozo builds is the moment I start questioning whether this mon is worth it or not, and part of me feels like that day will be never.
8) Nope! New items look fairly niche in singles, especially with Scald being axed in distribution. Maybe when Glowking / Urshifu come back I'll have a reason to use them
9) 9 - The meta is greatly centralized, but Terastal is immensely enjoyable. Every turn lifts you up from your seat as you have to consider a lot more about what could potentially happen. Team preview time is also more important as determining Tera types is another layer on top of your average gameplanning. From my experience, Tera hasn't really been overbearing at all, even if I have been lured from time to time, I usually haven't actually lost the game if Tera gets revealed, and Tera allows you to build around particular matchups that sting you in the game, but aren't very common without crippling the rest of your build. Fun mechanic IMO, should stay for the rest of the gen.
10) 6 - Dondozo and Clodsire are both really boring not gonna lie - they feel impassable half the time, and the other half of the time they still burn tons of resources. Building in this meta is fairly constrained due to some of the powerful picks in this meta - not just defensively but offensively, mons like Chi-Yu give me a real headache, and you need to have good revenge killing methods for mons like Chien-Pao if you get shocked by Electric Tera / worn down by CB too quickly. It's still decently competitive though IMO, especially after the Palafin ban, and I don't think mons like Gholdengo are particularly annoying - in part because of punishes like Chi-Yu, Chien-Pao and Great Tusk that can come up and really mess with those comps before Gholdengo can start winning with 3 Spikes + Rocks up at all times.
Have you considered calcing with Psychic as well? I think running 3 Fire-type moves on Chi-Yu is a waste of resources. If you had Psychic as part of the moveset, Dachsbun is no longer a feasible check even with maximum Special Defense investment with a Careful nature 'cause of its trash special bulk. Dragalge and Hariyama are also destroyed by Psychic.
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alephgalactus
Banned deucer.
Overheat OHKOs a lot without as much risk as Fire Blast, but Fire Blast is necessary for a lot of the bulkier 2HKOs because of Overheat’s Sp. Atk drop and Flamethrower is needed to have an accurate attack. Also, everything that can survive this set (and is worth running) takes more from Dark Pulse than Psychic. The only things that Psychic does more on are Dragalge, Hariyama, Dachsbun, AV Paldean Tauros, and Thick Fat Azumarill, none of which are going to ever be seriously played in OU, and you give up either the reliability of Flamethrower, the raw power of Overheat, or the 2HKO capability of Fire Blast.
My point is, Chi-Yu is basically Dracovish but on fire. Give it proper weather support and it 2HKOs damn near the entire Pokédex, including the things that are supposed to beat it, and its only answers are “just change the weather lmao” or trashmons.
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Okay, fair enough. One point I want to note is that Azumarill technically doesn't need Thick Fat since it can avoid the 2HKO from Fire Blast with Special Defense investment. With Assault Vest, it does better as well, and I've seen more than 1 person in this thread talk about using Assault Vest Azumarill 'cause the meta is very fast and not favourable for Azumarill to set up Belly Drum easily unless you play Screens HO with Cyclizar. It does take more damage from Psychic than Dark Pulse, and it's not a complete unmon. Maybe you can argue that it's a bad set, but there are some people out there using it to check Chi-Yu.
To be honest, I want Chi-Yu to be banned, as I believe this thing is way overtuned with it being stronger and faster than Lele with a superior STAB combo. It's basically a mini-dracovish, only faster and frailer.
To be honest, I want Chi-Yu to be banned, as I believe this thing is way overtuned with it being stronger and faster than Lele with a superior STAB combo. It's basically a mini-dracovish, only faster and frailer.
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alephgalactus
Banned deucer.
Yeah, I have no problem saying that AV Azumarill is far from an optimal set. The fact that people are using it to check Chi-Yu says a lot more about Chi-Yu than it does about Azumarill.
Agreed. It appears not a lot is capable of handling Chi-Yu defensively. Offensively there’s a bit more options, but stall just collapses to this thing
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