Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion

[Shaymin Sky]

Do u mean this?

ye it wouldnt be hard to make a team suited for tsareena, either need to bait tera on skele or knock its boots off for tspikes and screens support basically makes it unkillable for those 7 turns which at that point is free evasion. Theres other things like gholdengo blocking fog too for the tspikes I think theres quite a bit of potential in making a tsareena team work.

 

[SpritePony]

wait i forgot u cant taunt cus of the ability lol idk why they brought that up

I'll own up to it, I forgot about Queenly Majesty. That's entirely on me. Also, how tf is this thing going to break something like an opposing Corviknight or Scizor?
+6 0 Atk Tsareena Bullet Seed (5 hits) vs. 244 HP / 252+ Def Corviknight: 110-130 (27.6 - 32.6%) -- approx. 79.5% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
+6 0 Atk Tsareena Bullet Seed (5 hits) vs. 236 HP / 0 Def Scizor: 155-185 (45.5 - 54.4%) -- approx. 68.8% chance to 2HKO
+6 0 Atk Tsareena Bullet Seed (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Scizor: 155-185 (45 - 53.7%) -- approx. 43% chance to 2HKO
+6 0 Atk Tsareena Bullet Seed (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Amoonguss: 140-165 (32.4 - 38.1%) -- approx. 99.5% chance to 3HKO

This assumes an insane amount of luck. Getting +6 from Acupressure, getting multiple 5-hit Bullet Seeds, and not getting denied.

 

[Ast0rga]

What is wrong with Smogon?

I just 6-0'd using Garganacl only
I think my brain was turned off while doing it!
Why is Smogon suspect testing Wake, see it even remained legal
Garganacl is B.R.O.K.E.N.
At least ban Salt Cure

 

[viivian]

ACCUPRESSURE NEEDS TO BE BANNED!


View attachment 500818
Tsareena @ Leftovers/Covert Cloak
Ability: Queenly Majesty
Tera Type: Water/steel
EVs: 252 HP / 36 Def / 92 SpD / 128 Spe
Impish Nature
- Bullet Seed
- Taunt
- Acupressure
- Synthesis


About the set
This sets main goal is setting up various boost with Acupressure, a move that doubles a random stat INCLUDING EVASION! Typically the game is over once you get an evasion boost since it is +2 evasion, not a +1. However if you happen to get a speed, defense, and special defense boost you typically still have a chance to sweep. The only useless boost are Accuracy and special attack but the odds of getting these useless boost are low as they are a 2/7 chance. Taunt prevents opposing setup sweepers, toxic users, taunt users, and recovery such as roost. Then we have synthesis for self sustain, and finally bullet seed for a general stab move. I specifically use bullet seed for its PP of 48, as opposed to power whip which can be easily stalled out by bulkier unaware Pokémon.

THREATS
It's literally just Hatterene + Dondozo, or Skeledirge (no tera) lol practically any other Pokémon can realistically lose to this given the correct boost (evasion lmfao). Dragons also pose quite a threat, Specs dragapult with draco meteor can be quite scary without the x2 special defense. Roaring Moon, Hydreigon, and Dragonite require quite good RNG to defeat as well but usually with a x2 in defense or special defense or an outright evasion boost can get the job done.

Defensive Utility
This Pokémon hard walls non-tera Breloom, and the general bulk Tsareena has of 72/98/98 is nothing to scoff at as it can avoid most 2 hit ko's from non super effective attacks. With the added typing advantage of tera water or steel depending on which chosen, the array of Pokémon you switch in on becomes far greater.

Matchups

Stall: This set is unbeatable for stall, you can almost always lead Tsareena and start setting up acupressure's, while taunting Clodsire, Dondozo, and Corviknight from setting up or going for a toxic in Clodsires case. The only possible way stall can beat Tsareena is with Skeledirge, but currently stall cannot afford to fit Skeledirge due to meta constraints so this surprise MU is unlikely to occur.

Semi stall: The matchup is similarly favorable in comparison to stall, with the caveat of Skeledirge being more likely as well as Tera-Garganacl being a nuisance unless you are utilizing covert cloak Tsareena.

Balance: Matchups against balance can usually go either way, really its all about opportunism as I have never had a MU vs balance where Tsareena couldn't win unless there was a Roaring Moon or Hydreigon along with shit boost rng. There is high variance in the effectiveness of Acu Tsareena but I'd argue the odds of her having a shot at winning a match vs balance teams is around 60% which is problematic for the tier in my opinion given the luck involved. Although there is luck involved you are quite likely to get a boost that actually matters significantly, and you have a 1/7 chance of straight up winning (evasion) which is the same odds as a scald burn.

Bulky Offense: Identical to balance, but the offensive nature of this archetype typically gives me more MU scenarios where they don't have a Skeledirge or Dondozo + Hatterene to mess me up, and Roaring Moons are quite rare on this archetype.

Offense: This matchup is actually quite good, usually the setup spam on offense is not as great as hyper offense so it gives you breathing room to attempt to get acupressure's without the risk of dealing with Skeledirges, Garganacl's, Dondozo + Hatterene, and Hydreigon on raw offense is not nearly as common compare to balance or bulky offense. Id argue this or balance is the 3rd best archetype to face besides stall and semi stall (both of those being normally AUTO WINS)

Hyper Offense: bad lol, if you get evasion you probably can win given most HO teams don't have the usual Pokémon that give Tsareena trouble, the issue is just getting the positioning to Acupressure in the first place. If you manage to get a +2 speed boost however you are kind of in a really good spot, since bullet seed breaks sashes and taunt can be spammed which is quite useful against HO. It's not unlikely to win with Tsareena once you get an Acupressure but really the problem is getting it in, as well as weighing the odds of "is it worth it to try to get the rng setup vs such a volatile team".

plz ban this from tier its rng sweep mon with minimal counterplay besides Skeledirge which u can beat by forcing its tera xd the odds of a x2 good boost is literally 80% chance lol like cmon hows this allowed.

Replays of this in 1800's through setup or providing general defensive utility

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1824412456-lng0o2ywn8z8z67q118gnkmgistzpmapw
Tsareena sweep 6-0

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1824420924
Tsareena sweep lategame with tera typing.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1824038753
Insane defensive utility of Tsareena winning me the game

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1824443926
I only lost this because I threw by not synthesis vs breloom when I could have lol idk it was 130 turns i had a brainfart i didnt even care anymore, but the entire game just revolved around Tsareena's pressure none of my other mons even got a kill LOL and I was switching Tsareena in on Hatterenes, Dondozo, and Breloom and getting boost pressuring shit I mean its insane that an entire game can revolve around 1 mon for 130 turns lol.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1824431666
General defensive utility of Tsareena clutched me the DUB lowkey, this was close if this thing didn't live on 1 early on I was screwed lowkey.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1798153510-s38bf4nuari8h5shavonydtt13rr9o6pw
Tsareena 6-0 stall from turn 1.

Conclusion
Overall this team where I literally just replaced scream tail with Tsareena so the teams not even specifically optimized for the set LOL, peaked low 1800's with like 6 games of play kekw, can definitely reach 1900's but I don't care enough I just want Acupressure gone before some kids actually make teams AROUND this shit and make ladder even more hell. If I can get 1800 with minimal effort and slapping the mon on a team, imagine someone who is actually trying lmao. TBH anything that can boost evasion should be banned (besides metronome) Finchinator


EDIT: I forgot to mention, kowtow cleave does not check accuracy, if you don't have defense boost a late game kingambit can be a bit scary but I've yet to lose to 1.

not sure if it should be banned but as you have proven, it's clearly something that can succeed under the correct circumstances, especially on HO teams with dual screens and/or shed tail support to give them more time to set up and sweep

Anything with Sap Sipper also beats it 1v1 lmao.

who is running sap sipper in OU? are we running sap sipper azumarill now? sap sipper goodra? how is this ability even relevant in OU and why is it in particular the failsafe counter against acupressure tsareena and not the multitude of bulky grass resists in the tier? we have skeledirge, corviknight, volcarona, dragonite and gholdengo, among other things, who would all at least halter the progress made by tsareena, as well as fulfill their usual roles as a sweeper/wall/revenge killer whereas any pokemon with sap sipper would do nothing besides be a hard counter to this very niche set. i get your point but you could have used a better example here, same for a lot of the arguments you used against acupressure tsareena

 

[Shaymin Sky]

I'll own up to it, I forgot about Queenly Majesty. That's entirely on me. Also, how tf is this thing going to break something like an opposing Corviknight or Scizor?
+6 0 Atk Tsareena Bullet Seed (5 hits) vs. 244 HP / 252+ Def Corviknight: 110-130 (27.6 - 32.6%) -- approx. 79.5% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
+6 0 Atk Tsareena Bullet Seed (5 hits) vs. 236 HP / 0 Def Scizor: 155-185 (45.5 - 54.4%) -- approx. 68.8% chance to 2HKO
+6 0 Atk Tsareena Bullet Seed (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Scizor: 155-185 (45 - 53.7%) -- approx. 43% chance to 2HKO
+6 0 Atk Tsareena Bullet Seed (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Amoonguss: 140-165 (32.4 - 38.1%) -- approx. 99.5% chance to 3HKO

This assumes an insane amount of luck. Getting +6 from Acupressure, getting multiple 5-hit Bullet Seeds, and not getting denied.

you click taunt and bullet seed it to death... ?

as for amoonguss u can just bullet seed the switch outs anyways and eventually u will win if ur +6

 

[SpritePony]

not sure if it should be banned but as you have proven, it's clearly something that can succeed under the correct circumstances, especially on HO teams with dual screens and/or shed tail support to give them more time to set up and sweep



who is running sap sipper in OU? are we running sap sipper azumarill now? sap sipper goodra? how is this ability even relevant in OU and why is it in particular the failsafe counter against acupressure tsareena and not the multitude of bulky grass resists in the tier? we have skeledirge, corviknight, volcarona, dragonite and gholdengo, among other things, who would all at least halter the progress made by tsareena, as well as fulfill their usual roles as a sweeper/wall/revenge killer whereas any pokemon with sap sipper would do nothing besides be a hard counter to this very niche set. i get your point but you could have used a better example here, same for a lot of the arguments you used against acupressure tsareena

I can see that me throwing up any arguments at all is pointless, and I am clearly not welcome here. Good day to you all.

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

who is running sap sipper in OU?

well, it's about as common as acupressure tsareena, so it's a valid point to bring up

 

[YNM]

Now that Walking Wake is OU, I’m officially stepping down as the Vice President of the Anti-Garg movement immediately. Ain’t no way I’m going to vote ban on a potential Walking Wake check (if it teras water or fairy). GL to yNot Mence

Bruh you're really leaving me in a tough spot... I can't just resign as well tho
Edit: there, fixed my signature

 

[chimp]

The next slate for OU analyses has dropped! If you’re interested in writing, go check it out and reserve a set now!

https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/sv-ou-reservation-index.3714276/

 

[1LDK]

Bruh you're really leaving me in a tough spot... I can't just resign as well tho

Want me to take the leadership? And reform the banganacl political club
even tho at this point it seems like an afterschool cringe roleplay club

 

[YNM]

Want me to take the leadership? And reform the banganacl political club
even tho at this point it seems like an afterschool cringe roleplay club

Then Imma be taking the Vice role thank you, congrats to the new President

 

[Return to Zero]

Oh hey, Wake's still legal.
Honestly, I'm cool with that. Now that its usage isn't so high, it's pretty manageable. Plus now I just prefer Water Absorb on Clodsire now anyways.

 

[zReptar]

ye it wouldnt be hard to make a team suited for tsareena, either need to bait tera on skele or knock its boots off for tspikes and screens support basically makes it unkillable for those 7 turns which at that point is free evasion. Theres other things like gholdengo blocking fog too for the tspikes I think theres quite a bit of potential in making a tsareena team work.

Based

 

[Funky's Team Shack]

Hopefully the Fake Rock is next on the suspect block, legal Wake changes 0 for that mon being banworthy

 

[ausma]

I can see that me throwing up any arguments at all is pointless, and I am clearly not welcome here. Good day to you all.

For the record, you certainly are welcome here, but in debates like these often times there will be back-and-forths. That is the nature of a discussion forum, and it's not a slight against you or anybody else whatsoever. We learn to have discussions and play the game as we actually practice doing so, and to do so, getting your thoughts and opinions out there is necessary. In this regard you've been doing well and it'd be a shame for you to stop now, but obviously that's your choice. Either way, let me make that clear for everybody here: your thoughts and ideas are all valuable and we really do want to hear them. However, of course, it's anybody's right to rebut them so long as there is mutual respect being demonstrated. If there is not, we will act; simple as.

As for the turnout of the suspect, I certainly am not too surprised seeing as the trajectory of discussion was going in Walking Wake's favor. With it slated to stay, I believe the strength of Volcarona has lowered to some extent. Not just because of Walking Wake itself, but also because we are seeing a higher amount of their shared checks in the metagame, between Toxapex and Clodsire for example. I believed Volcarona was deserving of a suspect evaluation, but with the metagame now taking a bit of an unfavorable angle for some of its more dangerous sets as well as Tera Fire being increasingly common, I'm far less certain. Garganacl I believe is trickier to evaluate, but I think in the long term it will be more likely to reap upon a bulkier metagame. I'm very excited to see where the metagame goes next.

 

[ant4456]

In that case, I think its an element worth preserving.

stall is a valid and good teamstyle to have in a healthy metagame

edit: i'm so sorry for posting a one-liner right below such a heartwarming, well-written post LOL i didn't see aaaaa

 

[SpritePony]

For the record, you certainly are welcome here, but in debates like these often times there will be back-and-forths. That is the nature of a discussion forum, and it's not a slight against you or anybody else whatsoever. We learn to have discussions and play the game as we actually practice doing so, and to do so, getting your thoughts and opinions out there is necessary. In this regard you've been doing well and it'd be a shame for you to stop now, but obviously that's your choice. Either way, let me make that clear for everybody here: your thoughts and ideas are all valuable and we really do want to hear them. However, of course, it's anybody's right to rebut them so long as there is mutual respect being demonstrated. If there is not, we will act; simple as.

As for the turnout of the suspect, I certainly am not too surprised seeing as the trajectory of discussion was going in Walking Wake's favor. With it slated to stay, I believe the strength of Volcarona has lowered to some extent. Not just because of Walking Wake itself, but also because we are seeing a higher amount of their shared checks in the metagame, between Toxapex and Clodsire for example. I believed Volcarona was deserving of a suspect evaluation, but with the metagame now taking a bit of an unfavorable angle for some of its more dangerous sets as well as Tera Fire being increasingly common, I'm far less certain. Garganacl I believe is trickier to evaluate, but I think in the long term it will be more likely to reap upon a bulkier metagame. I'm very excited to see where the metagame goes next.

Mods' obligatory post. It's fine, ausma. I already submitted my appeal to have my account nuked and removed. I know I don't belong.

 

[Wimzea]

Could someone PLEASE make an enabler team for that tsareena it is a beauty beyond words

 

[Mega Breloom]

Garganacl I believe is trickier to evaluate, but I think in the long term it will be more likely to reap upon a bulkier metagame. I'm very excited to see where the metagame goes next.

Something funny is that Garg kinda made the meta be able to handle WW better, sun teams struggle a lot against it, Pex and Slowking two big checks for Wake already were used to stall Garg and also several mons like Pult or Dirge use sub because of Garg and they just use it infront of Torkoal every time they can.

 

[1LDK]

Something funny is that Garg kinda made the meta be able to handle WW better

Broken (garga) checks broken (walking wake)

Something that many people overlook about why sun is not too oppressive despite every buff it got, It's because the meta is structured in a way that Great Tusk is number 1 in everywhere, therefore, statistically speaking, most teams have at least a semi decent check to keep up with it in the way of their own photosynthesis mon

I wonder if this kind of mechanic will repeat itself with Tapu Koko (if it comes back) and the Quark Drive mons

 

[Mega Breloom]

Broken (garga) checks broken (walking wake)

Something that many people overlook about why sun is not too oppressive despite every buff it got, It's because the meta is structured in a way that Great Tusk is number 1 in everywhere, therefore, statistically speaking, most teams have at least a semi decent check to keep up with it in the way of their own photosynthesis mon

I wonder if this kind of mechanic will repeat itself with Tapu Koko (if it comes back) and the Quark Drive mons

A lot of games will be decided with Valiant's speed ties, if Koko ever comes back Valiant will be banned for sure.
And yeah, agree with what you said, Tusk checks a lot of sun teams stuff and the lack of a good ground resist on them makes the match up worse.

 

[viivian]

Mods' obligatory post. It's fine, ausma. I already submitted my appeal to have my account nuked and removed. I know I don't belong.

why? no one is really against you, going ahead and getting your account removed by mods just seems unnecessary. i don't think anyone here wants you gone at all so doing this just seems like a lose-lose. if you genuinely feel as if doing this is ultimately better for your mental health then go ahead, self-care is important. but if you don't then it'd just be a big loss for everyone else. it's up to you at the end of the day but i really think you're fine staying here. you haven't done anything wrong and aside from a few disagreements i don't think anyone here harbors any dislike for you

but to avoid being off-topic, what teamstyle fares better against walking wake as of now? i've found that most balance/bulky offense structures get torn apart by wake whereas teams that lean hard into either defense or offense have a much easier time against it but what are your thoughts?

 

[SpritePony]

why? no one is really against you, going ahead and getting your account removed by mods just seems unnecessary. i don't think anyone here wants you gone at all so doing this just seems like a lose-lose. if you genuinely feel as if doing this is ultimately better for your mental health then go ahead, self-care is important. but if you don't then it'd just be a big loss for everyone else. it's up to you at the end of the day but i really think you're fine staying here. you haven't done anything wrong and aside from a few disagreements i don't think anyone here harbors any dislike for you

Honestly speaking, my opinions have always been shot down and stomped on. Just because I enjoy playing balance with ""passive"" mons, people will call the mons themselves, or even cores, bad because they're too busy jerking off BO and HO.
When I try to express any form of potential counterpoints, as I did today, I get shit on for making small, forgetful mistakes, or people going "why the hell you bringing this up when this isn't even relevant?" when talking entirely in hypotheticals.

It's better for me to be gone. I'm not going to stink up this thread anymore with my bullshit, but I'll leave it with this; I don't harbour any ill will to most of you here. (Only one person in particular, but you can sniff them out a few pages back.) I've followed the Smogon rulesets since I started getting into battling back in Serebii's IRC chats in Gen 4, and I've tried to defend Smogon's name against toxic, elitist purists who say Smog is an evil group, blah blah blah. But I fit neither here, nor in VGC, nor in the casuals communities. Never have, never will. I'm too casual for Smogon, too ""competitive"" for casuals, and well... SV VGC is a dumpster fire lmao. TatsuDon, our busted and banned Paradoxes (plus some others) running amok, and now Ruins legal.

 

[viivian]

Honestly speaking, my opinions have always been shot down and stomped on. Just because I enjoy playing balance with ""passive"" mons, people will call the mons themselves, or even cores, bad because they're too busy jerking off BO and HO.
When I try to express any form of potential counterpoints, as I did today, I get shit on for making small, forgetful mistakes, or people going "why the hell you bringing this up when this isn't even relevant?" when talking entirely in hypotheticals.

It's better for me to be gone. I'm not going to stink up this thread anymore with my bullshit, but I'll leave it with this; I don't harbour any ill will to most of you here. (Only one person in particular, but you can sniff them out a few pages back.) I've followed the Smogon rulesets since I started getting into battling back in Serebii's IRC chats in Gen 4, and I've tried to defend Smogon's name against toxic, elitist purists who say Smog is an evil group, blah blah blah. But I fit neither here, nor in VGC, nor in the casuals communities. Never have, never will. I'm too casual for Smogon, too ""competitive"" for casuals, and well... SV VGC is a dumpster fire lmao. TatsuDon, our busted and banned Paradoxes (plus some others) running amok, and now Ruins legal.

if that's how you feel then so be it. wishing you the best in moving forward and i hope you find a community you feel at home with like you once did this one. take care, we'll miss you

 

[Magcargo]

Honestly speaking, my opinions have always been shot down and stomped on. Just because I enjoy playing balance with ""passive"" mons, people will call the mons themselves, or even cores, bad because they're too busy jerking off BO and HO.
When I try to express any form of potential counterpoints, as I did today, I get shit on for making small, forgetful mistakes, or people going "why the hell you bringing this up when this isn't even relevant?" when talking entirely in hypotheticals.

It's better for me to be gone. I'm not going to stink up this thread anymore with my bullshit, but I'll leave it with this; I don't harbour any ill will to most of you here. (Only one person in particular, but you can sniff them out a few pages back.) I've followed the Smogon rulesets since I started getting into battling back in Serebii's IRC chats in Gen 4, and I've tried to defend Smogon's name against toxic, elitist purists who say Smog is an evil group, blah blah blah. But I fit neither here, nor in VGC, nor in the casuals communities. Never have, never will. I'm too casual for Smogon, too ""competitive"" for casuals, and well... SV VGC is a dumpster fire lmao. TatsuDon, our busted and banned Paradoxes (plus some others) running amok, and now Ruins legal.

Yeah, I get you (I think). I don't think its anyone's fault in particular, but discussions can get heated and people can be (unintentionally or intentionally) passionate regarding certain topics & may be making points that may sound harsher (or in my case annoying/repetitive) than initially intended. This site is meant more as a social hub more than anything else + I think the like system makes it so that clout matters a lot here, so getting hit w/ a harsh post that says you're wrong that also proceeds to get a bunch of likes makes it feel you are alone / stranded when making certain points or arguements (I know I certainly feel that way multiple times on this site, even very recently, & I most certainly contribute to that problem). At the end of the day though, these discussions are one thing, but actually playing the game is something else & I think its more important to value & prioritize that over anything discussed on these forums.

If nothing else, I think it was pretty cool that you experimented with some cool sets and ideas, rather than mostly playing it safe like I do.