Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v4 [Volcarona Banned]

fr it's either this or rain
the worst part about it is that you can't even really tell from team preview what they have
is it LO or screens Deoxys
its split evenly between physical superpower, scarf, and tera blast stellar enam
gouging fire runs burning bulwark ONLY when I click first impression
I swear people didn't change their teams this much before whats even going on
The worst part about it for me isn't the diversity, though it is def something you need to consider for deo-S in general, in this team structure, it is going to be screens. It's just that despite the player usually piloting the team poorly, you still have to take immense countermeasures just so they don't sweep. You have to play so careful and if you get cocky, they could agility up and outspeed your entire team. That screenshot of a team for a match, the player tera'd poison in front of my pelliper for some reason, despite the fact that my tera water liquidation did 50%+ to them when un-tera'd. They could have barely lived the hit with lefties recovery, but my barra preceeded to sweep.
If it was just an easy win, I wouldn't be complaining, the fact that it is so good is the problem, I have to be careful with my plays.
 
The worst part about it for me isn't the diversity, though it is def something you need to consider for deo-S in general, in this team structure, it is going to be screens. It's just that despite the player usually piloting the team poorly, you still have to take immense countermeasures just so they don't sweep. You have to play so careful and if you get cocky, they could agility up and outspeed your entire team. That screenshot of a team for a match, the player tera'd poison in front of my pelliper for some reason, despite the fact that my tera water liquidation did 50%+ to them when un-tera'd. They could have barely lived the hit with lefties recovery, but my barra preceeded to sweep.
If it was just an easy win, I wouldn't be complaining, the fact that it is so good is the problem, I have to be careful with my plays.
That’s because that team is this team you people. And yeah there’s a reason it’s everywhere. When you have a video with 11,000 views about how to exactly use this team it will be everywhere. It’s a good team that even bad players can use pretty easily.
https://www.smogon.com/forums/threa...d-1-2068-ft-gouging-fire.3732919/post-9899487
 
what about a simple tweak to the matchup algorithm: "if players have the same first 4 characters in their names, don’t match them up against each other on ladder." boom, now we can grind for reqs against normal players without having to step on each other's heads to reach them
huge loss for people who run keysmash accounts and don't sign in
 
SD Iron Valiant genuinely goes insane on rain. Rain Boosted liquidation or tera water liquidation or even both hits things for insane damage. Yeah you'd rather tera barraskewda but if you can find a free turn a +2 iron valiant is nothing to sneeze at
 
Speaking for myself and not the council here.

The current reqs system works well for what it is, funneling in consistent and competent players for voting reqs. It isn't an unreasonable system by any stretch of the word, especially with the new +/-0.2 GXE system that has been implemented last generation to reward a highly successful reqs session and give leverage to those who have a harder time, making them more accessible than ever. As Finch already said, this system is definitely solid and works fairly well, as shown by the incredibly high voterbase in recent months.

That being said, I do believe the current system by itself, while good, could be improved, or at least supplemented in some way. At the end of the day, it's true that your experience and skill in the metagame is tested, but I do subscribe to the idea that its just as much of (if not more of) a stamina test that some people are better suited to approach than others. This admittedly has made it a problem for me in the past prior to me joining the council, and while part of it definitely was a skill issue at the time, I (and I know a good deal of other players who are experienced and I think would definitely deserve the right to vote but struggle with stamina) can have a frustrating time when you factor in fatique and tilt that have the potential to punish you with a greatly damaged (and sometimes even ruined) run off of one or two mistakes and/or the luck of the draw. When the primary initiative behind the current system is to gauge your experience, that can be extremely upsetting, for sure. I think for that reason it's absolutely worthwhile to have a dialogue about; I was having a chat with viivian about it the other day, and I was waffling a bit on opening a policy review thread. Though I have ultimately decided against it since, like I said, the current system is definitely not broken and works quite well, and allocating resources toward addressing the system when there are other priorities is a bit rough to justify imo. Unless there is a massive wave of support I probably won't be doing so.

___

However, while I'm here, I did have two ideas on how to, specifically, supplement the reqs process. I don't believe removing a functional system is a particularly great idea regardless of its flaws, as there isn't anything fundamental that makes it broken or overtly and arbitrarily skewed toward one group of players.

1: My first suggestion is to implement suspect tours in some way. This is a pretty common practice in other/unofficial metagames and RoA suspects mostly because they don't have active ladders, but to me it's an excellent voting alternative that focuses exclusively on metagame and skill knowledge. The primary caveat of this is that the scale of OU suspects comparatively can complicate things for the OU room staff who already have a ton on their plates, and voting reqs cutoffs are things that have to be sorted out too. It's not a perfect alternative given the circumstances behind OU but I do think they excel when utilized properly.

2: My second suggestion is one that's a bit rough around the edges, but specifically is a bit inspired by the crazy run of LusterSN who had literally >100 games before qualifying and hit 1900 before reaching 80% GXE. Another potential alternative could be having an ELO cutoff alongside a GXE cutoff. This one is one that would need a lot of sorting out regarding what thresholds are truly "correct" so to speak, but there is potential in it. I think a lot of people often dismiss ELO as a way to evaluate someone's experience in the tier. There comes a point where you get past the garbage and truly have to contend with competent players and the metagame at its fullest force. Even if your GXE isn't particularly the best, being at high ELO means you are still effectively winning enough games to even be there in the first place, which requires competency and some degree of experience to achieve and maintain. I personally don't like this one as much as the suspect tour option because of the fact that it's far more fickle to establish boundaries for and could lead to ladder saturation, but whether these are dealbreakers or even problems at all I think is up for debate.

___

My own stance is that having voting alternatives alongside the current GXE-based system could be an actively positive thing to encompass a greater range of skilled/experienced players who have a harder time with the stamina-oriented demands of the current system. These are things I personally would support implementing if we have the resources/time, but it is not something that I believe is mandatory or at least not worth prioritizing compared to actually working on the tier. Regardless, I hope this can provide some food for thought.
What are your thoughts on rng impact people’s GXE grinds? Like they lose more games than they are allowed to for GXE, all because of few unlucky games and like 1 game where they actually played bad.
 

658Greninja

is a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributor
Moderator
imo a Bo3 format for suspect ladders is terrible. Imagine if you had to fight stall three times with each game taking 20+ minutes. Not everyone has an hour to spare for one game cause for the most part, people play ladder for quick matches, and this would actually discourage people from suspect laddering.

That being said, suspect tests and getting reqs could be improved. Here’s some proposed solutions that were brought up but I agree with.

#1: Modify ladder so players with suspect alts can’t fight each other

There is generally a big gap between a good player and a great player, so any decent player risks their run being postponed cause they ran into ScribbyTrollet who peaked at no. 1 on the ladder and is using a suspect alt in the 1100s. Limiting both players from facing each other would be a more accurate test of skill, as they are now facing players of that skill-level.

#2: ELO check

Expecting most of the playerbase to play 30-50 games and not lose one is a bit over-demanding. Obviously it is possible, but there is other factors that dictate that run besides skill. RNG can be a major reason why you lose a game, and you might also run into an unexpected bad matchup. Thus resetting the climb. As Ausma said, being able to climb to the 1800s or higher is a test of skill in at itself. I believe having a secondary method to getting reqs makes it more consistent, less stressful, while keeping the element of skill in mind. The main issue of the current

#3 Suspect tours

This method is done for older gens and metagames with smaller playerbases. For current gen OU tho, I am skeptical about incorporating this. While yes, it does allow players to form opinions of the suspect based off high level tournaments, it only gives us a small sample to work with, and determining tiering action of the main tier off of a minuscule amount of the playerbase may not be the best course of action. Older gens and smaller metagames can get away with this because most of the top players of those metas play in tours anyways.
 
This is completely related to this post:
Think some of you all need to just get good if you're complaining about your run being completely over at 1500 or below. See Avira's not tl;dr post page 223 for the reality check.
I cannot fucking stand the "get good" thing. Why don't you people actually fucking help instead of being reductive and using a two word descriptor that inherently makes people upset. Dark Souls and its consequences and all that
 

viivian

beep boop
is a Tiering Contributor
I cannot fucking stand the "get good" thing. Why don't you people actually fucking help instead of being reductive and using a two word descriptor that inherently makes people upset. Dark Souls and its consequences and all that
analyze each of your wins/losses, watch teambuilding guides, practice on ladder or with a friend, watch tournament games, etc etc. improving can be hard (i would know, i still have a long way to go) but you gotta push yourself to learn from your mistakes
 

AM

is a Community Leader Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnusis a Past WCoP Champion
LCPL Champion
This is completely related to this post:

I cannot fucking stand the "get good" thing. Why don't you people actually fucking help instead of being reductive and using a two word descriptor that inherently makes people upset. Dark Souls and its consequences and all that
"Get better"? I mean how do you want this worded with the same conclusion? Ausma made some good points about including a suspect process that doesnt require a ladder grind but let's be honest, the complaints about reqs are usually from people who don't make reqs ever (see my first two words) or just dont like to ladder and are trying to find an easier solution. Let's use 658Greninjas post as an example, not to throw them under the bus.
#1: Modify ladder so players with suspect alts can’t fight each other
So basically you want the people that already farm the ladder farm it even more and the people that don't still not get reqs and then complain. You actually want to face better players based on the ELO/GXE scale relative to where you are ELO wise, because if you win the differential goes up faster. This is why you see reqs being done at say 30-40 games with the high GXE. The accuracy of skill at a real low level is very subjective when in a very low setting you can face an Ash team in one game, and an actual "real" team in another. You dont really see people at a similar skill level until maybe the halfway point and that can be a stretch even then.
#2: ELO check
Hate to be the bearer of bad news, but you'll see dumb/stupid plays no matter what ELO you're at. Yes the stigma 30 games straight to win where people win like 27 games straight an lose one and say "is my run over" can calm down a bit. It's not that serious and believe it or not it isn't over. I think the current ladder reqs established now are actually pretty fair, if not tame, when lot of Old gens have been incorporating ladder reqs with even stricter requirements (86 GXE+ or higher). Unless you are constantly losing you can eventually get the reqs.
#3 Suspect tours
I don't think the average person is going to really engage in this, the tour people will because they like playing tours. Suspect tours requires you to be a runner up or winner of that tour in most circumstances to obtain reqs this way. This point actually contradicts the first point, because basically you are facing much better players now and probably aren't on a skill level to beat them.
 
Imagine how much money smogon would do if they make the suspect laddering Pay 2 Win instead of Free 2 Play
none, literally no money to be made in the long run, nintendo, the pokemon branding company and gamefreak would hit a five knuckle shuffle + karate chop combination on the pokemon showdown servers if suspect grinding was paid

and all smogon staff would be captured by government officials and placed in solitary confinement for life

and even the tiering councils wouldn’t be safe from nintendos hunt for their justice
the councilmen for all formats ranging from OU to shared power would be fined 2,000,000 in their local currency at minimum
 
Last edited:

658Greninja

is a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributor
Moderator
Hate to be the bearer of bad news, but you'll see dumb/stupid plays no matter what ELO you're at. Yes the stigma 30 games straight to win where people win like 27 games straight an lose one and say "is my run over" can calm down a bit. It's not that serious and believe it or not it isn't over. I think the current ladder reqs established now are actually pretty fair, if not tame, when lot of Old gens have been incorporating ladder reqs with even stricter requirements (86 GXE+ or higher). Unless you are constantly losing you can eventually get the reqs.
“you’ll see dumb/stupid plays no matter what ELO you’re at”

But you’ll see less dumb/stupid plays the higher you go. Again, I think ELO should also be a metric for skill level. Around the 1000s-1500s, it doesn’t really matter, but after that, people start to actually play the game albeit in a very tryhard way, and around the 1800s is where you have to actually “git good”. There is still a skill barrier involved and no 1-year old piloting their Eeveelution team is gonna reach that.

I think this system would actually encourage more people to try for reqs, because eventually reaching the 1800s helps a newer player learn more than playing 30 games. From my perspective, I’m someone who wants to help make competitive Pokemon more accessible to new players while not removing the skill cap/celling. Which is why I made a whole teambuilding guide on the forums. However I do agree with Ausma’s point that ELO check could lead to ladder saturation, so I would not claim this solution is not without flaws.

I don't think the average person is going to really engage in this, the tour people will because they like playing tours. Suspect tours requires you to be a runner up or winner of that tour in most circumstances to obtain reqs this way. This point actually contradicts the first point, because basically you are facing much better players now and probably aren't on a skill level to beat them.
Which is why I opposed this method. Not just cause a smaller pool of players don’t represent the meta, but because I would argue there would be more MU fishing involved. Because there are less players and higher stakes. On ladder you will run into several matchups that you must account for in the builder. In tours it is the same principle, but you are gonna know who you’re up against in advance and try to cteam them depending on what they are most likely bring.

I do respect your stance, but I feel the current reqs system may need slight improvements.
 
With the power of throat spray plus roar, kyurem can do something funny stuff

Kyurem @ Throat Spray
Ability: Pressure
Tera Type: Dragon
EVs: 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk

-Roar
- Ice Beam
- Draco Meteor
- Earth Power

it WAS a shame kyurem couldn’t utilise set up on special sets, now it can get a free boost and forces a pokemon, which may not able to handle kyurem or a pokemon that devours it

use this as much as possible before the kyurem ban, maybe you can get reqs can save kyurem? Or make sure he gets arrested for his crimes
ah yes, the answer to all of our problems
microtransactions
the valentines day themed gas pass for £13.99 , unlock the generation 4 uu ladder after reaching level 42, elo gained in the event will be lost next season

and for just £23.99, you can use magearna in ou again, maybe magnezone won’t be a lonely ru mon anymore
Not to mention leaks show they will be adding the option to kick ban shroom god from games and gain some free elo next season
 

viivian

beep boop
is a Tiering Contributor
Imagine how much money smogon would do if they make the suspect laddering Pay 2 Win instead of Free 2 Play
how much for a flutter mane unban

Speaking for myself and not the council here.

The current reqs system works well for what it is, funneling in consistent and competent players for voting reqs. It isn't an unreasonable system by any stretch of the word, especially with the new +/-0.2 GXE system that has been implemented last generation to reward a highly successful reqs session and give leverage to those who have a harder time, making them more accessible than ever. As Finch already said, this system is definitely solid and works fairly well, as shown by the incredibly high voterbase in recent months.

That being said, I do believe the current system by itself, while good, could be improved, or at least supplemented in some way. At the end of the day, it's true that your experience and skill in the metagame is tested, but I do subscribe to the idea that its just as much of (if not more of) a stamina test that some people are better suited to approach than others. This admittedly has made it a problem for me in the past prior to me joining the council, and while part of it definitely was a skill issue at the time, I (and I know a good deal of other players who are experienced and I think would definitely deserve the right to vote but struggle with stamina) can have a frustrating time when you factor in fatique and tilt that have the potential to punish you with a greatly damaged (and sometimes even ruined) run off of one or two mistakes and/or the luck of the draw. When the primary initiative behind the current system is to gauge your experience, that can be extremely upsetting, for sure. I think for that reason it's absolutely worthwhile to have a dialogue about; I was having a chat with viivian about it the other day, and I was waffling a bit on opening a policy review thread. Though I have ultimately decided against it since, like I said, the current system is definitely not broken and works quite well, and allocating resources toward addressing the system when there are other priorities is a bit rough to justify imo. Unless there is a massive wave of support I probably won't be doing so.

___

However, while I'm here, I did have two ideas on how to, specifically, supplement the reqs process. I don't believe removing a functional system is a particularly great idea regardless of its flaws, as there isn't anything fundamental that makes it broken or overtly and arbitrarily skewed toward one group of players.

1: My first suggestion is to implement suspect tours in some way. This is a pretty common practice in other/unofficial metagames and RoA suspects mostly because they don't have active ladders, but to me it's an excellent voting alternative that focuses exclusively on metagame and skill knowledge. The primary caveat of this is that the scale of OU suspects comparatively can complicate things for the OU room staff who already have a ton on their plates, and voting reqs cutoffs are things that have to be sorted out too. It's not a perfect alternative given the circumstances behind OU but I do think they excel when utilized properly.

2: My second suggestion is one that's a bit rough around the edges, but specifically is a bit inspired by the crazy run of LusterSN who had literally >100 games before qualifying and hit 1900 before reaching 80% GXE. Another potential alternative could be having an ELO cutoff alongside a GXE cutoff. This one is one that would need a lot of sorting out regarding what thresholds are truly "correct" so to speak, but there is potential in it. I think a lot of people often dismiss ELO as a way to evaluate someone's experience in the tier. There comes a point where you get past the garbage and truly have to contend with competent players and the metagame at its fullest force. Even if your GXE isn't particularly the best, being at high ELO means you are still effectively winning enough games to even be there in the first place, which requires competency and some degree of experience to achieve and maintain. I personally don't like this one as much as the suspect tour option because of the fact that it's far more fickle to establish boundaries for and could lead to ladder saturation, but whether these are dealbreakers or even problems at all I think is up for debate.

___

My own stance is that having voting alternatives alongside the current GXE-based system could be an actively positive thing to encompass a greater range of skilled/experienced players who have a harder time with the stamina-oriented demands of the current system. These are things I personally would support implementing if we have the resources/time, but it is not something that I believe is mandatory or at least not worth prioritizing compared to actually working on the tier. Regardless, I hope this can provide some food for thought.
jokes aside, i'd like to actually give my thoughts on this. i mentioned it in conversation with you but i think suspect tours are definitely worth experimentation, hopefully in the near future. it likely won't be a permanent alternative like you said, but it's worth testing out to see if it's feasible in OU. but if it doesn't work out and the council starts considering ELO cutoffs then what would be the cutoff, if you don't mind me asking? and would the GXE requirement stay the same regardless of whether or not the ELO cutoff has been reached?
 

ausma

token smogon furry
is a Site Content Manageris a Top Social Media Contributoris a Top Artistis a Member of Senior Staffis a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Top Team Rater Alumnusis a Smogon Discord Contributor Alumnus
OU Forum Leader
What are your thoughts on rng impact people’s GXE grinds? Like they lose more games than they are allowed to for GXE, all because of few unlucky games and like 1 game where they actually played bad.
As nice as it would be to cleanly remove RNG-induced losses from GXE calculation, actually having a protocol for approaching them is not at all feasible. There's the fundamental issue of how to objectively prove that certain instances of RNG were actively deleterious enough to induce the loss, especially if RNG occurred early on. Even if we could do this, it would require an asinine amount of time and resources to go through RNG-induced replays and even determine how to compensate for them. The amount of effort this would take would not make this worth it, especially when the current system is still, at its core, extremely functional. It sucks a lot to lose to RNG but I think its ability to impact both stamina and the overall record of the run is just an inherent flaw of the system that can't really be worked around without supplementation imo, which is why I hold my stance.

but if it doesn't work out and the council starts considering ELO cutoffs then what would be the cutoff, if you don't mind me asking? and would the GXE requirement stay the same regardless of whether or not the ELO cutoff has been reached?
The cutoff is something that is very arbitrary and I believe arguing where it should be is going to fall under semantics. For instance: 1700 is around the ELO where most reqs runs end, including >50 game accounts. Or you could argue that it should be higher at around 1800 because the point of the idea is to evaluate familiarity and experience with the metagame, and 1800 is around where high ladder begins to pan out, etc. This was a flaw I already pointed out so it's fickle for sure. As for the second part of your question, I would imagine so! The system wrt GXE is completely fine imo and like I said, any suggestions to improve the process should supplement the current system instead of affecting or usurping it.

While I'm talking about this proposal, I will point out that I don't really at all agree with the sentiment behind "you'll see dumb plays wherever on the ladder" against the ELO argument mentioned earlier in the thread. Is this not true with the current system? Any reqs system that uses a ladder is going to have poor opponent play as a variable regardless of where you are, and no matter how we slice it, it would influence things no matter what.

Furthermore I'm also going to -1 the suggestion to filter out prefix mirror matches. AM's argument pretty much completely consolidates my reasoning, and I'll supplement it by saying that, since reqs runs end around 1700 where you start to teeter into high ladder, facing fellow suspect runners actually improves the quality of the run by making sure that you're going to be likely running into more competent players than usual.

Think some of you all need to just get good if you're complaining about your run being completely over at 1500 or below. See Avira's not tl;dr post page 223 for the reality check.
Lastly, I'm going to +1 the sentiment of this post. Even though I do hold the stance I do, consistently losing early on winds up being less a reflection of the system and more your own skill level. viivian made excellent suggestions on how to improve that I would implore those of you who are struggling to check out!
 

Lasen

smiling through it all
is a Site Content Manageris an official Team Rateris a Top Social Media Contributoris a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a CAP Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Top Contributor
I am by no means an OU prodigy; I barely touch the tier when I don't force myself to play friendlies with, well, friends which is a different beast because you are not gonna be mad if you lose to a friend but will be twice as mad to face stall. And yet, I've never gotten the issue people have with reqs in this tier. I legitimately picked a sample or an RMT every time I was bored, did 3-4 ladder sessions while I do my morning commute and got the reqs. The only annoying part every time is facing people with abysmal GXE so I can't do it in the minimum amount of games and gotta keep going for up to 15 extra ones.
"but it's impossible to get reqs if you face a fellow suspect tester early on!" if I lose within 10 games I reset but if you wanna think that it's "impossible" then I advise you to look at this post.
 

quziel

I am the Scientist now
is a Site Content Manageris a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Smogon Discord Contributoris a Top CAP Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a member of the Battle Simulator Staff
Suspect tours should not give you reqs cause its dumb to get reqs after playing maybe 15 matches.

Suspect tours should instead interact with "The minimum game requirement is reduced by 1 game for every 0.2 GXE you have above 80 GXE, down to a minimum of 30 games with a GXE of 84 or above.". Let a dude who won a suspect tour get reqs with 80% GXE and like 30 games played.

------

If you lose to a ouog account early on (when you're both at 1000) you'll lose less Glicko-2 than if you lost to an pkmntrainerkenny97 early on. Aka your rating changes depending on your opponent's Random Deviation, and new accounts have very high Random Deviation, and older accounts have very low Random Deviation. I don't agree even remotely with making it so that ouog accounts can't face eachother cause that seriously would mess with ladder dynamics.

---

Frankly speaking when early on in a suspect run you can generally just play safe and your (low skill) opponent will screw up before you do. This is true in basically every skill based game. You could also just play rain for 15 games straight and enjoy Archaludon handing you free Elo, but its good to have multiple options. Also remember to type /rank [opponent] before every match to see if they're grinding up an alt account, or are legitimately a 1200s player, and change how you play accordingly.
 
Frankly speaking when early on in a suspect run you can generally just play safe and your (low skill) opponent will screw up before you do. This is true in basically every skill based game. You could also just play rain for 15 games straight and enjoy Archaludon handing you free Elo, but its good to have multiple options. Also remember to type /rank [opponent] before every match to see if they're grinding up an alt account, or are legitimately a 1200s player, and change how you play accordingly.
Actually just don't bother playing it safe. I've learned hard from experience that players below 1400 will consistently make objectively the wrong choice. (Who the actual fuck doesn't click tera water on their gliscor when rain is up and the SD valiant has liquidation revealed and dies to a single stray hit are you insane?)
 
As nice as it would be to cleanly remove RNG-induced losses from GXE calculation, actually having a protocol for approaching them is not at all feasible. There's the fundamental issue of how to objectively prove that certain instances of RNG were actively deleterious enough to induce the loss, especially if RNG occurred early on. Even if we could do this, it would require an asinine amount of time and resources to go through RNG-induced replays and even determine how to compensate for them. The amount of effort this would take would not make this worth it, especially when the current system is still, at its core, extremely functional. It sucks a lot to lose to RNG but I think its ability to impact both stamina and the overall record of the run is just an inherent flaw of the system that can't really be worked around without supplementation imo, which is why I hold my stance.
If we are talking about pure RNG, I think a good starting ground for accounting for it is deviation from expected probability. I made a post before about it before, and to summerize it’s about checking how often you Freeze/Para/Flinch/whatever to the expect number of times you’re supposed to be haxed.
If you use Ice Beam a total of 16 times in a match, you should be expected to freeze 1.6 times, so 1-2 times. If you use Scald 16 times, you should expect 4.8 Burns or 4-5 burns (assuming each time the target was eligable to be frozen or burned). If you use Scald 16 times and 6 of those times the target couldn’t be burned, it’s be 3 expected burns.
Something like ((constant)*(actual hax #))/(expected hax #) being a multiplier for GXE/Elo would totally work.
 

Users Who Are Viewing This Thread (Users: 15, Guests: 26)

Top