Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v4 [Volcarona Banned]

i've realized that it's in my best interest as a player to let people convince themselves darkrai is mid because it's been carrying me more than my legs do and it's a lot easier to just sit back and get handed free elo for the rest of the gen than try to get people to agree with daddybuzzwole so i've decided that i'm changing my mind and hopping right on that #darkraiforuu train baby

now watch as people miraculously switch sides
 
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658Greninja

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Not only was Skarmory UU last gen, it was also nerfed with it losing Toxic. It’s largely outclassed by Corviknight in the defensive role, who can at least use Defog if the opponent doesn’t have Gholdengo that’s alive. It’s also outclassed as a hazard setter by an whole assortment of Pokemon.
Skarm has seen success lately. Due to access to Spikes and Whirlwind, it can rack up hazard chip while keeping many physical attackers out with Whirlwind, making progress. Whirlwind is also especially useful for eliminating Booster Energy boosts which can come in clutch. It’s been seen in defensive cores with Ting-Lu to check a majority of the metagame. Balance teams are surprisingly good in the meta, with several older options like Skeledirge, Mola, and Ting-Lu, in addition to some new options like defensive Gfire, and Hydrapple to work with.

I’ve also seen some Sand Balance structures since they match up well with current meta threats. SpD Ttar has solid matchups into Volcarona, Moth, Raging Bolt, etc and provides a ton of utility in one slot. Hippo is an alternative to Tusk that has reliable recovery, making it more affective at checking the physical threats of the tier. It lives hits like +2 Kowtow from Gambit after all its allies die and Proto Boosted Tera Fire Gfire at +1, which it could retaliate back with decently strong EQs. Skarm also obviously fits on these structures and can assert progress with Spikes.
 
To be fair, seems rather easy for Cinccino to become better than Maushold, all it needs it Game Freak give it Population Bomb and boom, Cinccino becomes a decent threat in OU.

Better coverage and more attack and speed. But maushold is a bit bulkier, which in some cases does come in handy for taking a hit.

There are no obvious bans in the tier, but with some cooking some stuff might come out. DD Gouging fire and SD Iron Boulder are specially powerful, but do have some struggles, still I feel there is a lot of potential with tera within them.

CM Latias is extremly good in this meta and legitly easily 6-0 most teams. Cant believe some people believe Latias could en in UU

Latios is mostly a weaker alternative to Dragapult, but with less power and some extra utility.

I already said it a few times, but yeah, Darkrai is very mid, not enough speed, hypnosis isnt reliable and without NP it does not really hit that hard. Cant slot coverage for everything and gets KO by too much stuff.
unfortunately cincino has wasted pottential due to its defences.

it has good a good movepool and two good abilities, but it is too frail.

maushold can at least survive one "make it rain" attack when on full hp.
 
I haven't really been playing seriously much during this big a meta shift before and it's interesting to say the least. I felt like I had a decent grip on things and now I feel like I'm back at stage one, you know? I feel like there's just a lot of new information for the playerbase to churn through and a lot of interactions to figure out. I wonder how long it'll take things to settle somewhat.
 
Is it a hot take to say that Kingambit is the most banworthy thing in the meta right now? It still does the same shit it's always been doing, and it gets really fucking annoying when the difference between winning and losing is just guessing if your opponent is gonna sucker punch or not. That's not even getting into the bullshit it pulls with tera. It'll be at the end of the game, and I'm just clicking court change/SD on my cinderace/blaziken to stall out its sucker punch pp, it's just miserable to play against.
 
also people judging darkrai don't understand that certain pokemon thrive in different metagames
without Dark Void being 100% acc it can't thrive as much with HO, but its NP 3ATK set and other options like Taunt are going to shut down Balance/BO cores once that becomes the primary type of team.

darkrai isn't as great in this HO metagame, it will dominate in a Balance or BO metagame, which will happen, BO/Balance metagame is literally the benchmark
From the games I've played on low ladder and spectated on high ladder it my observations have been it isn't anything special vs balance (which I am running and I am seeing a lot of on high ladder already) as well as Ting-Lu/Zapdos structures which are also already resurging. What cores do you see as particularly threatened by Darkrai? No way to raise speed, middling power unboosted (and boosted) and frailness are all pretty tough hurdles to overcome ime, it does some work for sure but isn't a balance breaker in the capacity that say Rillaboom Ghold or Wellspring were capable of

i've realized that it's in my best interest as a player to let people convince themselves darkrai is mid because it's been carrying me more than my legs do and it's a lot easier to just sit back and get handed free elo for the rest of the gen than try to get people to agree with daddybuzzwole so i've decided that i'm changing my mind and hopping right on that #darkraiforuu train baby

now watch as people miraculously switch sides
I think "mid" by definition is a good descriptor for Darkrai in OU, it has a purpose and does work but really is not anything special. People in the internet just act like mid means bad when it means mid. It's a perfectly fine OU Mon I think it'll land somewhere in the B area, and probably keep making its 4.52%
 
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Is it a hot take to say that Kingambit is the most banworthy thing in the meta right now? It still does the same shit it's always been doing, and it gets really fucking annoying when the difference between winning and losing is just guessing if your opponent is gonna sucker punch or not. That's not even getting into the bullshit it pulls with tera. It'll be at the end of the game, and I'm just clicking court change/SD on my cinderace/blaziken to stall out its sucker punch pp, it's just miserable to play against.
A little bit, but mostly because of Deoxys-S being on most people’s radars and ironically being more like Darkrai than Darkrai with its nasty plot set.
Also Enamorus now is a great answer to Kingambit late game as she can now use Tera Stellar and Tera Blast to beat Kingambit late game. Threatens Kingambit with either Earthpower or Moonblast or Tera Blast depending on current stat of the game.
 

1LDK

Vengeance
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I have a question for the skarmory believers out there, I am aware that thanks to spikes, being able to spike on the gholdengo switch instead of doing nothing means is a direct upgrade from corviknight, it has lower hp but higher defense, and sturdy means it cannot get 1 shot if running boots, my question is

are these upgrades really that impactful?

To me, being a straight upgrade to corv is not difficult to do, and they are pretty similar overall, I am aware that top players are using it and some of these have tried to sell me on him, but I'm not too convinced
 
I have a question for the skarmory believers out there, I am aware that thanks to spikes, being able to spike on the gholdengo switch instead of doing nothing means is a direct upgrade from corviknight, it has lower hp but higher defense, and sturdy means it cannot get 1 shot if running boots, my question is

are these upgrades really that impactful?

To me, being a straight upgrade to corv is not difficult to do, and they are pretty similar overall, I am aware that top players are using it and some of these have tried to sell me on him, but I'm not too convinced
Another reason for Skarm's popularity is Sturdy + whirlwind which is a one time anti-bullshit card that you kind of need in new metas where every new pokemon can just come in, use booster energy and sweep your ass in 1 turn of setup.
 
Is it a hot take to say that Kingambit is the most banworthy thing in the meta right now? It still does the same shit it's always been doing, and it gets really fucking annoying when the difference between winning and losing is just guessing if your opponent is gonna sucker punch or not. That's not even getting into the bullshit it pulls with tera. It'll be at the end of the game, and I'm just clicking court change/SD on my cinderace/blaziken to stall out its sucker punch pp, it's just miserable to play against.
I'd say yes... but only because THIS THING :Deoxys-Speed: is still running around OU.

Deo-S is more broken than Kingambit any day of the week.
 
It's funny you say that when a bunch of anti-Darkrai people were total assholes to the pro-Darkrai side and partook in the behavior you're chastising us for (I actually bookmarked a couple such posts). Mald harder.
"Yeah man, I got my feelings hurt really bad back then because the anti-Darkrai people were so mean. I know it's par for the course for every conversation in the forums to get heated and here in particular, but those guys were just the worst. And look! They were wrong! Look how above it all I am! Look at how YOU are the one malding right now!"
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I was one of the anti-Darkrai people. I already made a post here admitting I was wrong about my speculation. This spite is totally one-sided. Please take all of this way less seriously than you currently do.
Is it a hot take to say that Kingambit is the most banworthy thing in the meta right now? It still does the same shit it's always been doing, and it gets really fucking annoying when the difference between winning and losing is just guessing if your opponent is gonna sucker punch or not. That's not even getting into the bullshit it pulls with tera. It'll be at the end of the game, and I'm just clicking court change/SD on my cinderace/blaziken to stall out its sucker punch pp, it's just miserable to play against.
Give it a month and a Deoxys-Speed ban or two. Right now new toy syndrome is hitting hard and people need some time to remember Kingambit is still completely busted.
 
Please don't ban deo-s.
Not because it's not broken, but because maybe it'll convince people to finally give lokix a shot:
252+ Atk Lokix First Impression vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Deoxys-Speed: 300-354 (124.4 - 146.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
while deoxys can only do this back:
252+ SpA Life Orb Deoxys-Speed Focus Blast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Lokix: 242-285 (85.5 - 100.7%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
I swear it's viable guys please give it a chance I'm begging you
 
Is it a hot take to say that Kingambit is the most banworthy thing in the meta right now? It still does the same shit it's always been doing, and it gets really fucking annoying when the difference between winning and losing is just guessing if your opponent is gonna sucker punch or not. That's not even getting into the bullshit it pulls with tera. It'll be at the end of the game, and I'm just clicking court change/SD on my cinderace/blaziken to stall out its sucker punch pp, it's just miserable to play against.
Its a rather cold take, Kingambit should have been banned many months ago.

Although mostly due to people testing new stuff im not seeing him that often, so I dont know if he is as oppresive as he used to. I think we have more options to deal with it than pre DLC2, so it now might be balanced?

About DeoS, its certainly a annoying mon with tons of utility but Im not sure if it warrants action. Ive had 0 issues with it, it just taunts, set rocks/spikes and dies.

Also, DeoS almost always runs sash doesnt it? Lokix is certainly better now, but not only bc Deo, but bc Darkrai too
 
Please don't ban deo-s.
Not because it's not broken, but because maybe it'll convince people to finally give lokix a shot:
252+ Atk Lokix First Impression vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Deoxys-Speed: 300-354 (124.4 - 146.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
while deoxys can only do this back:
252+ SpA Life Orb Deoxys-Speed Focus Blast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Lokix: 242-285 (85.5 - 100.7%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
I swear it's viable guys please give it a chance I'm begging you
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FREE WINS FOR SINGLE MOTHERS

:blaziken::latias::deoxys-speed::rillaboom::gholdengo::roaring moon:

deo-s is very clearly broken even when limited to its lead hazards set. it does the same thing it did in all previous generations: gets two without fail. deoghold is deosharp on crack. get it out asap.

rest of the team is very funny brokens. blaziken is sneasler if it actually provided some defensive utility. dd stored power latias with gseed is hilarious & very fun - big bdsp vibes for me. ghold is ghold; moon is moon (still broken bullshit).

hf

oh also for those thinking that deo-d is gonna be okay, i have bad news for you. it will be back to its old shenanigans of sitting on your team forever draining all your pp and setting layers with no fucks given. just give it some time.
 
deo-s is very clearly broken even when limited to its lead hazards set. it does the same thing it did in all previous generations: gets two without fail. deoghold is deosharp on crack. get it out asap.
:sv/samurott-hisui:
That’s why I use Sash Samurott-H. It’s the best anti-Deoxys-S lead in the metagame. Not only setting up spikes while KOing non-Sash variants, but can follow up with Aqua Jet to ensure only one layer is up. Additionally you preserve your focus sash if you weren’t attacked, which just means Deoxys only gets up one layer, so you are always going to be in the lead with hazards against Deoxys-S. Trick doesn’t work either as it just means you’re more likely to get up 3 layers of spikes up while Deoxys-S only gets 1.
Only thing that could go wrong is that Samurott-H misses Ceaseless Edge, which isn’t that bad as you can just use it again.
 
Not only was Skarmory UU last gen, it was also nerfed with it losing Toxic. It’s largely outclassed by Corviknight in the defensive role, who can at least use Defog if the opponent doesn’t have Gholdengo that’s alive. It’s also outclassed as a hazard setter by an whole assortment of Pokemon.
Corv is below Skarm on the early viability list. Even discarding Gholdengo, corv is a do nothing passive wall that over relies on uturn to not thud into teams, making it very exploitable. Skarm has better physical bulk, sturdy, and a fantastic tool in spikes. It sure as fuck isn’t outclassed by a whole assortment of setters. It is one of those great spike setters.
 
Cinccino still sucks even with Loaded Dice.
>Too frail to switch in or set up Tidy Up
>Vulnerable to hazards
>Walled by moderately bulky Pokemon even after a Tidy Up
>The 90% accuracy on multi-hit moves are actually like 50% I swear to god
>If an Archaludon switches in on your attacks it's gonna tear you a new asshole

Here's the set I used by the way:
Cinccino @ Loaded Dice
Ability: Technician
Tera Type: Normal
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Tail Slap
- Bullet Seed
- Rock Blast
- Tidy Up
have you considered running Skill Link as an ability so you can use an actual item? Or even just go all in on hazard clearing and pivoting and run tidy up/knock/u-turn/tail slap, given that it gets two of the best moves in the game that maushold just doesn't.
 
Just going to say... move design? Yeah, it would be good for :cinccino: to get it but it wouldn't make any sense. What's the population? Its hair? The only exception is :Smeargle:, but that's a different thing.
Almost all rodents are known for having high reproduction rates, which is the concept of population bomb, Cinccino is a Chinchilla so a rodent, while their reproduction rate is not as high as those of rats, mice or rabbits its still quite high. It would make sense for most rodent mons to eventually learn population bomb unless they really wanna keep it exclussive in Maushold... Raticate, Pikachu, Cinderace, Lopunny, Bidoof, Furret... Among others, specially the normal types would make sense if they learnt it.
 
Almost all rodents are known for having high reproduction rates, which is the concept of population bomb, Cinccino is a Chinchilla so a rodent, while their reproduction rate is not as high as those of rats, mice or rabbits its still quite high. It would make sense for most rodent mons to eventually learn population bomb unless they really wanna keep it exclussive in Maushold... Raticate, Pikachu, Cinderace, Lopunny, Bidoof, Furret... Among others, specially the normal types would make sense if they learnt it.
The description of pop bomb says it's a familial attack, that's staying on maushold unless some other aggregate family mon drops. It's because it's a whole swarming attack, all those other mons dont really make sense. It's not implications of actually having a high birth rate, it's just a group attack. ~~also rabbits aren't rodents they're a seperate thing~~. Anyways, what do you all think about a hydrapple-clef-skarm dragon/fairy/steel core? I think it could do some work on balance teams, I think it has some real promise.
 
Corv is below Skarm on the early viability list. Even discarding Gholdengo, corv is a do nothing passive wall that over relies on uturn to not thud into teams, making it very exploitable. Skarm has better physical bulk, sturdy, and a fantastic tool in spikes. It sure as fuck isn’t outclassed by a whole assortment of setters. It is one of those great spike setters.
The viability list in general does usually make accurate predictions, but you also get stuff like Articuno-G being considered highly because of early day showcase.
I would rather just run Corv + another spikes setter because Corv provides way more value as a wall. Not only because Pressure is amazing at PP stalling attackers like Iron Boulder who’ll have really limited PP, but U-turn is always a great option. Pivoting around is usually more valuable and threatening than using Whirlwind that you may or may not get off. Additionally Corvi isn’t just passive wall either and can use set up effectively, being better because of better SpD, Bulk Up > Curse, and Pressure being able to help it in set up wars.
As for other spikes setters, there are several other spike setters in the game. Almost everything has spikes and when even have attacking spikes. You have Deo-S, Deo-D, Hamurott, Glimmora, Gliscor, Ting-Lu, Ogerpon, Meowscarada, Clodsire, and many more. It has very stiff competition and being worse overall crossbreed of Corv and Gliscor isn’t really that exciting.
 
Not only was Skarmory UU last gen, it was also nerfed with it losing Toxic. It’s largely outclassed by Corviknight in the defensive role, who can at least use Defog if the opponent doesn’t have Gholdengo that’s alive. It’s also outclassed as a hazard setter by an whole assortment of Pokemon.
Phazing + spikes >>>>>>>>>>>> defogging in Dengo's world.

Corv is extremely mid.
 
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