Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v4 [Volcarona Banned]

[Time Waster]

View attachment 621613
Bet.
Yeah, I created 12 new roaring moon sets just to show how moon isn't linear. It has a lot of set versatility that people have not explored. Only two of these sets are gimmicky, the rest are something you could run if you wanted to surprise the opponent while still being great standalone.
The reason I brought up sub ghost moon, is that it destroys people who use corv as a counter to moon. And it can use e-quake to destroy gambit while still blanking sucker punch because sub protects it from gambit's sucker punch.

You can make literally anything in the builder, if it doesn't get consistent results it's meaningless. There needs to be actual usage if you're arguing that this is something that makes Moon banworthy. If some of these options were used with any sort of frequency then you'd have a point. Can it do other things? Sure but they're niche options. I've even seen the stupid Jaw Lock set after that stopped being a thing. Does this make Moon banworthy? No.

Moon does well into Corv anyway just with tera flying and taunt. Although Brave Bird does a ton regardless. Balloon is extremely common on Gambit as well as tera flying/dark/fighting. Also you're running what dd/sub/eq/knock?? This seems like a straight downgrade from the standard one.

 

[Heatranator]

You can make literally anything in the builder, if it doesn't get consistent results it's meaningless. There needs to be actual usage if you're arguing that this is something that makes Moon banworthy. If some of these options were used with any sort of frequency then you'd have a point. Can it do other things? Sure but they're niche options. I've even seen the stupid Jaw Lock set after that stopped being a thing. Does this make Moon banworthy? No.

Moon does well into Corv anyway just with tera flying and taunt. Although Brave Bird does a ton regardless. Also balloon is extremely common on Gambit as well as tera flying/dark/fighting. Also you're running what dd/sub/eq/knock?? This seems like a straight downgrade from the standard one.

Yeah sure, you can make anything in the builder. What I'm showing is that moon has versatility. This can get people to start talking about different sets that work. I can even give an example since finch used a tera fairy blast lum set in week one of SPL. That is evidence that moon has versatility.
I checked the set again, and I ran dd/sub/knock/brick break. So it could beat gambit. Plus, gambit has to play the mind games of sub, and it will lose if it fails. I would post the sets, but I'm on my phone. If I can get back to my computer, I will post them.

 

[tommytt22]

Anyone experimented with non boots volc?


@ Grassy Seed
Ability: Flame Body
Tera Type: Grass
EVs: 252 HP / 160 Def / 96 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Quiver Dance
- Morning Sun
- Fiery Dance
- Giga Drain

this really puts pressure on physical attackers with flame body and serious physical bulk. speed creeps dragonite and dragapult after +1. Ever since boots were released it seemed like the perfect fit but hazard removal exists for a reason, you CAN use other items on volc guys. anyone who cant make this work has a skill issue. dragon darts does 35%. headlong rush tusk 38%. I really like this set and have done fairly well with it (a lot better than seed hoopa thats for sure)

 

[Venuesaur]

View attachment 621613
Bet.
Yeah, I created 12 new roaring moon sets just to show how moon isn't linear. It has a lot of set versatility that people have not explored. Only two of these sets are gimmicky, the rest are something you could run if you wanted to surprise the opponent while still being great standalone.
The reason I brought up sub ghost moon, is that it destroys people who use corv as a counter to moon. And it can use e-quake to destroy gambit while still blanking sucker punch because sub protects it from gambit's sucker punch.

tbh if you're going to make these arguments about how versatile Moon is you should share these sets; otherwise its the kinda thing where we need to take your word for it

 

[Heatranator]

tbh if you're going to make these arguments about how versatile Moon is you should share these sets; otherwise its the kinda thing where we need to take your word for it

That's fair. I don't have my computer right now which is where the sets are, I'm typing this on my phone, but I should be able to get on it in 1-2 hours.
One I do remember making basically replicates the breaking swipe set that gouging has, except at +1 it can outspeed timid dragapult.

 

[MegaScizor32]

I don't find Moon the most pressing issue, but come on now. If we applied this kind of logic universally, we wouldn't be banning nearly as many things because technically a ton of stuff can check random things in a pinch. There's better arguments than this.

It really wasn’t an argument, I was stating that in a tera metagame any mon can flip the script on its counter play. Also in this gen we ban things because in the context of a tera meta we deem it too strong/uncompetitive in comparison to other OU mons. A lot these banned mons abused tera too much to an extent we had to ban them. Every mon can tera but some are too strong because of what they can do with tera.

 

[Bold School]

Different dynamic? Yes. Unhealthy or overly restricting? No. Booster being only short term speed control makes it a lot more reasonable than you're trying to make it out to be.

Priority spam is a necessity for most teams that aren't stall. Revenge killing has gotten much trickier without priority since the speed tiers and all the setup sweepers are so jacked this gen. There are two massive differences between CS and BE. The first is BE doesn't lock you into moves. The second is that, as a consequence, you can still be a setup sweeper with BE. You can't be a setup sweeper with a choice item boost. BE accelerates the timeline of setup sweepers, giving them extra speed or extra power that they would normally need another turn for. It also eliminates the need for double dance, allowing an extra coverage move.

The level of setup sweepers has absolutely warped the tier. Every defensive team needs to run an Unaware backbone. The rest have to run priority. You can claim it's not unhealthy, but there are obvious effects on how teams are built.

Outside moon, no other Booster mon is contentious and is perfectly reasonable to account for. They only would get even easier to handle when borderline stuff gets kicked out (and those BE mons aren't the borderline mons). There are things to work on, mons to look at, but you're trying to pin an issue with the metagame on the wrong part of it.

The issue is the community cannot agree on what the right direction should be in the first place. I have stated quite a few times now that BE isn't my first or second choice.

I would also like to correct you that recently suspected Gouging Fire is still a booster mon. Not necesarrily in the sense of warping speed tiers, but it does get DD + BE.

 

[Heatranator]

Priority spam is a necessity for most teams that aren't stall. Revenge killing has gotten much trickier without priority since the speed tiers and all the setup sweepers are so jacked this gen. There are two massive differences between CS and BE. The first is BE doesn't lock you into moves. The second is that, as a consequence, you can still be a setup sweeper with BE. You can't be a setup sweeper with a choice item boost. BE accelerates the timeline of setup sweepers, giving them extra speed or extra power that they would normally need another turn for. It also eliminates the need for double dance, allowing an extra coverage move.

The level of setup sweepers has absolutely warped the tier. Every defensive team needs to run an Unaware backbone. The rest have to run priority. You can claim it's not unhealthy, but there are obvious effects on how teams are built.



The issue is the community cannot agree on what the right direction should be in the first place. I have stated quite a few times now that BE isn't my first or second choice.

I would also like to correct you that recently suspected Gouging Fire is still a booster mon. Not necesarrily in the sense of warping speed tiers, but it does get DD + BE.

I think the bigger issue is how many speedy threats that are in the tier that aren't be mons. For example, dragapult, Zama, Darkrai and weavile are extremely fast threats, no other gen has this many fast threats. And that's just the ones above 125 speed, many others are 110 or faster. That means being faster then them is important, and BE is an easy way to outspeed them. Of course, BE does warp the speed tiers a bit, but teams would need fast scarfers anyways regardless because of how many fast threats there are. It wouldn't really make much difference since there are still these threats around.

 

[Time Waster]

Yeah sure, you can make anything in the builder. What I'm showing is that moon has versatility. This can get people to start talking about different sets that work. I can even give an example since finch used a tera fairy blast lum set in week one of SPL. That is evidence that moon has versatility.
I checked the set again, and I ran dd/sub/knock/brick break. So it could beat gambit. Plus, gambit has to play the mind games of sub, and it will lose if it fails. I would post the sets, but I'm on my phone. If I can get back to my computer, I will post them.

I hope you succeed because Moon is super boring. I remember that game and again it worked specifically because that's uncommon. Still is too, even Gambit is more likely to use Tera Blast Fairy and that's super uncommon. I'm gonna be real, tera ghost dd/sub/knock/bb is like niche of niche. Tusk completely walls you. Brick break for Gambit is rare but viable on the flying set because you still have acro and knock to hit everything else. With this you're stuck with knock, that's not really viable.

 

[Carl_the_turtle]

The reason I brought up sub ghost moon, is that it destroys people who use corv as a counter to moon.

walled by yung crowbar (double dance id/bu corv with power trip from legit stall) fake answer sorry.
unironically, while I love niche heat, i feel like most non taunt/quake sets aren't particularly consistent at higher levels, with stuff like jaw lock + roost or w/e being almost entirely meme territory. Moon feels 1.5 dimensional, with even formerly strong sets like dark band seeing little to no use nowadays.

 

[Heatranator]

I hope you succeed because Moon is super boring. I remember that game and again it worked specifically because that's uncommon. Still is too, even Gambit is more likely to use Tera Blast Fairy and that's super uncommon. I'm gonna be real, tera ghost dd/sub/knock/bb is like niche of niche. Tusk completely walls you. Brick break for Gambit is rare but viable on the flying set because you still have acro and knock to hit everything else. With this you're stuck with knock, that's not really viable.

+1 252 Atk Protosynthesis Roaring Moon Brick Break vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Great Tusk: 132-156 (35.5 - 42%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Mhh, no. You would realistically have one dd up since you have a sub up, so tusk does have to be careful about it's health. Drop to 60% or lower, and its dead.
Anyways, just got back home, so I'll post the sets I was talking about.
https://pokepast.es/45d6eddf541fdd11
I'll explain each in detail.
Bulky lefties set
This set abuses the fact that moon has pretty good defenses, and with just a + speed nature, can naturally outspeed tusk. The combo of dark+fighting+ground is only resisted by enam. It can even take two tusk ice spinners. While it doesn't do much damage to start, it can get boosted super easily. I chose tera fairy because that is a good defensive type.
Grassy Seed set
The only set I have actually used, so I can say this is pretty good. It abuses the defense boost from grassy seed to get dd boosts, while recovering hp. Roost allows it to continuoly do this.
Assault vest set
This is a set that abuses the bulk of moon. The speed evs are to outspeed kyurem, while the hp and special defense evs means it can take a +2 volcarona tera blast dragon (though I think it might have been for something else). Rest is dumped into attack. Tera water is a good defensive typing and means it can wall lots of things (It can easily take a specs kyurem ice beam and +2 darkrai ice beam).
Sub lefties set
This set is a that can sub up and start boosting. The evs are to live as many physical hits as possible, while with tera bug you can be pretty good against fighting type moves.
Sub ghost set
Abuses the fact that fighting type moves are usually used against moon. The combo of dark+fighting is pretty good, though e-quake is something that could be put in. Destroys the metal birds and can play around gambit.
Snowball set
A gimmicky set, but it plays off the fact that weavile ice shard is used to revenge kill it. By using tera water, you resist the hit and get an attack boost, meaning acrobatics is superpowered.
Tera blast grass set
Destroys both dozo and tusk, who can't take its attacks. This means that lots of mons that may have been good against it are now prey for it.
Trapping set
This is a gimmick, straight up. Uses fire spin to trap opponents. Tera fire allows it to have a nice defensive typing. 104+ allows it to outspeed volc, most are dumped into bulk and some into attack to finish the opponent off.
HDB set
This is basically the booster energy set, but instead it utilises the multiple opportunities it gets to come in and threaten a sweep. I went with tera ground to make e-quake a lot better. Destroys teams that think they can scout which of e-quake or taunt it has and then wall it.
Breaking swipe set
Basically Gouging 2.0. Outspeeds Dragapult at +1, while also being able to take a +2 tera water ivy cudgel. Is better in some regards because it can outspeed more things, but worse in some since it doesn't have as much power.
Roseli Berry set
A bit of a gimmick, but this set can use fairy types as setup. Can take a valiant moonblast from full. Then it can start sweeping. Tera steel means it can switch into fairy types even if the roseli berry is knocked off.
Zen headbutt Choice band set
Uses zen headbutt to deal with tusk, which is 2hit ko'd. Tera bug u-turn is also really powerful.

 

[RKOtaku]

This meta seriously sucks. I really wish I could insta ban heavy duty boots, h-samurott and gholdengo to have a metagame where hazards actually matters but are not overwhelming instead of facing teams with HDB on every mon and Gliscor/Clefable/Landorus.

I see some people saying this is the most diverse metagame since the beginning of the gen when in my opinion it's the most restrictive one. You face countless teams you just can't interact with because hazards have 0 impact on them and you can't even use Hatterene because f***ing Ceaseless Edge go through it anyway. You either run HDB no matter the playstyle or you are f***ed there is no in between. I also saw that Ribombee rose in the VR despite the fact that the only mons Sticky Web is good against are the booster energy mon, Deoxys-s and Ogerpon since everything else will just be HDB or obsenely fast scarfers to begin with (Darkrai, Meow etc...).

Maybe I'm the only one feeling like that but I seriously miss Gen 6/7 where you could actually interact with your opponent and good positionning with hazards actually mattered but it was still reasonnably easy and widespread to get rid of them.

 

[Heatranator]

This meta seriously sucks. I really wish I could insta ban heavy duty boots, h-samurott and gholdengo to have a metagame where hazards actually matters but are not overwhelming instead of facing teams with HDB on everymon and Gliscor/Clefable/Landorus.

I see some people saying this is the most diverse metagame since the beginning of the gen when in my opinion it's the most restrictive one. You face countless teams you just can't interact with because hazards have 0 impact on them and you can't even use Hatterene because f***ing Ceaseless Edge go through it anyway. You either run HDB no matter the playstyle or you are f***ed there is no in between. I also saw that Ribombee rose in the VR despite the fact that the only mons Sticky Web is good against are the booster energy mon, Deoxys-s and Ogerpon since everything else will just be HDB or obsenely fast scarfers to begin with (Darkrai, Meow etc...).

Maybe I'm the only one feeling like that but I seriously miss Gen 6/7 where you could actually interact with your opponent and good positionning with hazards actually mattered but it was still reasonnably easy and widespread to get rid of them.

That can easily be done, it's just a little bit more work. Knock off literally removes the items from mons, that in itself is used to abuse hazards. Also, if you really think that banning HDB, H-samurott and gholdengo would solve the hazard issue, no. There are so many more spikers than before, its not even funny. Combine that with the dearth of removers, and hazards are always going to be prevelant.
I do agree in some ways it is the most restrictive, but in others it is the most diverse. I have used so many shitmons and done well with them, that in itself shows a diverse metagame. Somebody even got to high ladder with thundy-i, that's impressive.

 

[RainWaiv]

View attachment 621613
Bet.
Yeah, I created 12 new roaring moon sets just to show how moon isn't linear. It has a lot of set versatility that people have not explored. Only two of these sets are gimmicky, the rest are something you could run if you wanted to surprise the opponent while still being great standalone.
The reason I brought up sub ghost moon, is that it destroys people who use corv as a counter to moon. And it can use e-quake to destroy gambit while still blanking sucker punch because sub protects it from gambit's sucker punch.

dude just use a box lmao

It's honestly a super useful tool for teambuilding since you can dig out sets you'll use more than once (ex. choice specs corv)

 

[Heatranator]

dude just use a box lmao
View attachment 621634
It's honestly a super useful tool for teambuilding since you can dig out sets you'll use more than once (ex. choice specs corv)

I know how to make boxes, I actually thought I was going to create 6 different sets but came up with more. And since I couldn't be assed to move them to a box, I decided just to create a new team.

 

[RKOtaku]

That can easily be done, it's just a little bit more work. Knock off literally removes the items from mons, that in itself is used to abuse hazards. Also, if you really think that banning HDB, H-samurott and gholdengo would solve the hazard issue, no. There are so many more spikers than before, its not even funny. Combine that with the dearth of removers, and hazards are always going to be prevelant.
I do agree in some ways it is the most restrictive, but in others it is the most diverse. I have used so many shitmons and done well with them, that in itself shows a diverse metagame. Somebody even got to high ladder with thundy-i, that's impressive.

I would agree if Knock Off was still as distributed as before but what realistically runs knock off nowadays ? Weavile, Meowscarada, H-Samurott, Clefable, Gliscor, Great Tusk, Iron Valiant and Roaring Moon. Besides IV and RM, all of these Pokemon are the ones you are going to see on the team you can't interact with that I'm talking about so unless you are running this kind of team, you won't be able to make progress with Knock Off. So as I said, it's definitely not the most diverse metagame when you are basically forced to play a certain way or with certain Pokemon and entire abilities and playstyles are invalidated because of an item and a broken move.

And while Spikes is more distributed than ever and Defog is at an all time low, without these things I'm talking about you could at least be able to use Defog on something else than G-Weezing and hazard positionning would actually matter.

 

[RainWaiv]

I know how to make boxes, I actually thought I was going to create 6 different sets but came up with more. And since I couldn't be assed to move them to a box, I decided just to create a new team.

If i'm building a set I normally just toss it in a box somewhere. I have a few for serious sets and a lot for shitposty sets.

 

[Heatranator]

I would agree if Knock Off was still as distributed as before but what realistically runs knock off nowadays ? Weavile, Meowscarada, H-Samurott, Clefable, Gliscor, Iron Valiant and Roaring Moon. Besides IV and RM, all of these Pokemon are the ones you are going to see on the team you can't interact with that I'm talking about so unless you are running this kind of team, you won't be able to make progress with Knock Off.

And while Spikes is more distributed than ever, without these things I'm talking about you could at least be able to use Defog on something else than G-Weezing and hazard positionning would actually matter.

Only really serperior and walking wake doesn't run knock off of these mons. That's a fair lot that use it just in OU. Clefable sometimes uses it along with sticky barb. Darkrai doesn't use it too often, but it has been using knock more often. Deo-S has been using it quite a lot. Gliscor exclusively uses it. Tusk and treads also exclusively uses it. Valiant uses it quite a lot. Meow always uses it. Waterpon sometimes uses it. Rillaboom uses it on 85% of teams. Moon uses it always. Hamurott uses it 63% of the time. Weavile always uses it. So yeah, a lot of mons use it.
I think you are overemphasising how many mons run HDB. Sure, a lot of mons do, but not every mon. Kingambit only uses it 6% of the time. Tusk uses it only 30% of the time. Wellspring can't use it at all. Zamazenta only runs it 13% of the time. So yeah, not as many as you make out to be. Sure, some mons such as glowking almost exclusively use HDB, but that's not everything. Also, what defoggers would you be using? Mandibuzz is relegated to stall, scizor and hawlucha want to do other things than defog. That just leaves corv, which already sees defog usage.

 

[RainWaiv]

And while Spikes is more distributed than ever and Defog is at an all time low, without these things I'm talking about you could at least be able to use Defog on something else than G-Weezing and hazard positioning would actually matter.

wow weezing's neutralizing gas is so cool it sure would suck if it instalost to the thing it's supposed to have a niche against lol
252 SpA Gholdengo Make It Rain vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Weezing-Galar: 360-426 (107.7 - 127.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
It really only has a niche against defensive dengo not running max spa which is kinda weird to see but also it's really only hazard removal and it's still going to set up for free anyways. Plus the standard OU defensive set (not even what i calced it against) runs 0 SpD EV's so it would lose to that too.
I don't get why people entertain the idea of G-Weezing having a niche in OU when it can't do the one thing it's supposed to do (bypass ghold) it's "niche" is just having hazard removal, which even then mons such as mandibuzz or treads would have a better niche for in OU because they can win against the anti-hazard removal cheese stick semi-consistently.

By the way, you spelled "positioning" wrong. I fixed it for you though (thank me later)

 

[RKOtaku]

wow weezing's neutralizing gas is so cool it sure would suck if it instalost to the thing it's supposed to have a niche against lol
252 SpA Gholdengo Make It Rain vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Weezing-Galar: 360-426 (107.7 - 127.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
It really only has a niche against defensive dengo not running max spa which is kinda weird to see but also it's really only hazard removal and it's still going to set up for free anyways. Plus the standard OU defensive set (not even what i calced it against) runs 0 SpD EV's so it would lose to that too.
I don't get why people entertain the idea of G-Weezing having a niche in OU when it can't do the one thing it's supposed to do (bypass ghold) it's "niche" is just having hazard removal, which even then mons such as mandibuzz or treads would have a better niche for in OU because they can win against the anti-hazard removal cheese stick semi-consistently.

By the way, you spelled "positioning" wrong. I fixed it for you though (thank me later)

God forbid I'm not a native english speaker and I made a tiny spelling mistake. Btw, I didn't say G-Weezing was good or is supposed to stay on Gholdengo so your calc is irrelevant and you have reading issues. The only thing I will say to you is F you and welcome to the blacklist.

 

[RainWaiv]

God forbid I'm not a native english speaker and I made a tiny spelling mistake. Btw, I didn't say G-Weezing was good so your calc is irrelevant and you have reading issues. The only thing I will say is F you and welcome to the blacklist.

You imply g-weezing is the only reliable defog user (definitely not true), I then say that it isn't and provide calcs, then you immediately back out and say I have reading problems?
Bad reading comprehension only applies if the thing I'm reading is comprehendible. It's a two way street.

 

[RKOtaku]

View attachment 621635
Only really serperior and walking wake doesn't run knock off of these mons. That's a fair lot that use it just in OU. Clefable sometimes uses it along with sticky barb. Darkrai doesn't use it too often, but it has been using knock more often. Deo-S has been using it quite a lot. Gliscor exclusively uses it. Tusk and treads also exclusively uses it. Valiant uses it quite a lot. Meow always uses it. Waterpon sometimes uses it. Rillaboom uses it on 85% of teams. Moon uses it always. Hamurott uses it 63% of the time. Weavile always uses it. So yeah, a lot of mons use it.
I think you are overemphasising how many mons run HDB. Sure, a lot of mons do, but not every mon. Kingambit only uses it 6% of the time. Tusk uses it only 30% of the time. Wellspring can't use it at all. Zamazenta only runs it 13% of the time. So yeah, not as many as you make out to be. Sure, some mons such as glowking almost exclusively use HDB, but that's not everything. Also, what defoggers would you be using? Mandibuzz is relegated to stall, scizor and hawlucha want to do other things than defog. That just leaves corv, which already sees defog usage.

Darkrai doesn't run Knock Off most of the time and it's a waste of a moveslot on it. As you said Serperior and WW are not relevant Knock Off users and I missed Ogerpon (who would rather use Play Rough), Rillaboom and Deoxys-S. So the only Pokemon on this list that are good non HDB users NOT EXCLUSIVE to the Hazard Stack/Immune Teams I'm talking about and commonly run Knock Off are Rillaboom, Deoxys-S, RR, IV and Great Tusk. IV and RR are mostly one time use Pokemon and can run Knock Off but not to make progress as they only use it one time. So that leaves only three Pokemon to make progress with it. Definitely not a widespread solution to the issue I have with the metagame. Hatterene's ability being useless is still an issue too.

And you are citing Pokemon that never uses HDB so I don't see the point you are trying to do as I never implied these are the ones I'm talking about. Dragapult, Glowking, H-Samurott does and a mix of Lando-T, Clefable, Gliscor, Corv, Alomomola makes your team almost hazard immune. I don't know the teams you are facing and at what part of the ladder you are playing but you can't say with good faith that HDB and these kind of teams are not running rampant on the higher parts of the ladder.
While Defog isn't common as I said, having a surefire way to remove hazards on any Pokemon that can use it even if it's just Corv would still be better than right now. And sorry but who runs defog on Corv when Gholdengo is in the tier ?

 

[Heatranator]

Darkrai doesn't run KO most of the time and it's a waste of a moveslot on it. As you said Serperior and WW are not relevant and I missed Ogerpon (who would rather use Play Rough), Rillaboom and Deoxys-S. So the only Pokemon on this list that are solid non HDB users and commonly run Knock Off are Rillaboom, Deoxys-S, RR, IV and Great Tusk. IV and RR are mostly one time use Pokemon and don't run Knock Off to make progress so that leaves only three Pokemon to make progress with it. Definitely not a widespread solution to the issue I have with the metagame.

And you are citing Pokemon that never uses HDB so I don't see the point you are trying to do as I never implied these are the ones I'm talking about. Dragapult, Glowking, H-Samurott does and a mix of Lando-T, Clefable, Gliscor makes your team almost hazard immune. I don't know the teams you are facing and at what part of the ladder you are playing but you can't say with good faith that HDB and these kind of teams are not running rampant on the higher parts of the ladder.
While Defog isn't common as I said, having a surefire way to remove hazards on any Pokemon that can use it even if it's just Corv would still be better than right now. And sorry but who runs defog on Corv when Gholdengo is in the tier ?

I admitted that Darkrai doesn't run knock off most of the time, but it isn't a waste of a moveslot. Darkrai's movepool is being explored more, and that includes options such as wisp, sucker and knock. And what of that these mons don't run HDB? The point I was making is that knock off is prevelant, while you said it wasn't. Again, you missed Gliscor, that exclusively runs knock off and doesn't wear HDB. You are being very specific with what you determine is using knock off. You know any of the knock off mons can run other items than HDB?
I showed those mons because that directly shows that not every mon runs HDB, which is what you are saying. Also, Hamurott only runs HDB 40% of the time. That's its most used item, but that is nowhere near enough to call it omnipresent.

56% of the playerbase is. And this is from the 1695 stats, so that's high ladder.

 

[Drifting]

I admitted that Darkrai doesn't run knock off most of the time, but it isn't a waste of a moveslot. Darkrai's movepool is being explored more, and that includes options such as wisp, sucker and knock. And what of that these mons don't run HDB? The point I was making is that knock off is prevelant, while you said it wasn't. Again, you missed Gliscor, that exclusively runs knock off and doesn't wear HDB. You are being very specific with what you determine is using knock off. You know any of the knock off mons can run other items than HDB?
I showed those mons because that directly shows that not every mon runs HDB, which is what you are saying. Also, Hamurott only runs HDB 40% of the time. That's its most used item, but that is nowhere near enough to call it omnipresent.
View attachment 621640
56% of the playerbase is. And this is from the 1695 stats, so that's high ladder.

1695 is like the definition of mid ladder, high ladder doesn't really start until 1800

 

[RKOtaku]

I admitted that Darkrai doesn't run knock off most of the time, but it isn't a waste of a moveslot. Darkrai's movepool is being explored more, and that includes options such as wisp, sucker and knock. And what of that these mons don't run HDB? The point I was making is that knock off is prevelant, while you said it wasn't. Again, you missed Gliscor, that exclusively runs knock off and doesn't wear HDB. You are being very specific with what you determine is using knock off. You know any of the knock off mons can run other items than HDB?
I showed those mons because that directly shows that not every mon runs HDB, which is what you are saying. Also, Hamurott only runs HDB 40% of the time. That's its most used item, but that is nowhere near enough to call it omnipresent.
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56% of the playerbase is. And this is from the 1695 stats, so that's high ladder.

What I'm saying is that the mons you cited are the ones that you run when you are using these kind of teams. So instead of making a point that the metagame is diverse you are telling me to use the very same strategy that is already plaguing the ladder. If you want to play other playstyles you have to run HDB on everything because this metagame heavily favors Hazard Stack/Immune teams since Ceaseless Edge, HDB and Gholdengo exists.

And I'm sorry but no, 1695 is not high ladder and I'm not sure people at this part of the ladder even run the type of team I'm speaking about.

I'm not even advocating for a ban, I'm just saying I find these kind of teams infuriating and extremely boring to face and this metagame is the most restrictive since the start of SV. I would like to have all playstyles be viable instead of being forced to play a certain way to not be at a disadvantage.