Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v4 [Volcarona Banned]

[tommytt22]

Only Gambit and nothing else? Maybe I'm missing something, but I don't understand why someone wouldn't just run Magnezone with Body Press at this point. At least Mag can also take out the metal birds, which many teammates would appreciate.

Well actually i do use magnezone. Ive droned on quite a bit about how effective it is with scizor. Not like many people have taken notice i still never see them on ladder. I use modest with tbolt, volt switch, flash cannon and body press, with EXPERT BELT and tera fighting. You can trap metal birds, gambit in an emergency, and youll still pull weight agaisnt bulky waters and fairies like clef or primarina. No brainer in my opinion

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

Also, magnezone never can ohko kingambit with bp (unless its bold, but that's a roll)

christ who the fuck designed this mon

 

[Bold School]

christ who the fuck designed this mon

I don't know. I feel like even without Tera, doing 56%-68% chip to Gambit earlier than it wanted to take it basically shuts it down for reverse sweeping later. With Tera Fighting, you can do roughly 85-101.5%. Even something like a Rillaboom or a +1 D-nite can pick up 15% with like a Grassy Glide or E-speed. But that's bulky Gambit. Classic offensive Gambit will take like 65 - 78.5% and more like 98.5 - 117% with Tera Fighting.

And that's all with no damage item. Obviously, something like Expert Belt would guarantee a Tera Fighting BP KO on Gambit. But even without Tera, I feel like it wouldn't be too hard to finish Gambit off with a Dark resist or a priority mon. I think it's actually rather manageable to deal with. It's not ideal for a mon that only really has one job, though.

 

[Moyashi]

christ who the fuck designed this mon

I mean to be fair, that's without stab off an 80BP move. Like Bold School pointed out, it's also still relatively a victory to chip Kingambit that much since it becomes less able to switch in, let alone sweep later on without significant help.

That said I think Zone just suffers from an issue of not really being needed this gen. Trapping isn't super necessary when you can just overwhelm Corv this gen with aggressive play and it having only 8PP recovery hurts it. Trapping Kingambit, or at least chipping it heavily, is nice but there are other ways to accomplish that. And of course you're not trapping the Steel/Ghost Gholdengo and Iron Treads isn't really trapped by Zone, nor is it something that you really NEED to trap.

 

[Leman123]

Also if you can tera and switch out then Zone can't really trap anything.

 

[Moyashi]

Also if you can tera and switch out then Zone can't really trap anything.

Ehh this is one I won't agree with, as forcing a tera can be very advantageous (and thus theoretically the Zone user still made out favorably).

On a different note, anybody find Meowscarada to just be underwhelming right now? It feels like it either is too weak at times and prediction reliant. Could just be me but I haven't found it very threatening. Weavile feels like the better offensive dark type.

 

[tommytt22]

I mean to be fair, that's without stab off an 80BP move. Like Bold School pointed out, it's also still relatively a victory to chip Kingambit that much since it becomes less able to switch in, let alone sweep later on without significant help.

That said I think Zone just suffers from an issue of not really being needed this gen. Trapping isn't super necessary when you can just overwhelm Corv this gen with aggressive play and it having only 8PP recovery hurts it. Trapping Kingambit, or at least chipping it heavily, is nice but there are other ways to accomplish that. And of course you're not trapping the Steel/Ghost Gholdengo and Iron Treads isn't really trapped by Zone, nor is it something that you really NEED to trap.

You cannot beat Skarmory with scizor, which is something that magnezone can hard switch in on and ohko. Is magnezone required? No. But theres a lot to be gained if you struggle agaisnt the birds. you dont need several strong hitters to beat down corviknight if magnezone handles it in one slot. It can punish a good amount of the tier on the switch as well, such as dealing 60% with flash cannon to tusk. This also preserves your physical attackers if birds are using rocky helmet

 

[Heatranator]

Ehh this is one I won't agree with, as forcing a tera can be very advantageous (and thus theoretically the Zone user still made out favorably).

On a different note, anybody find Meowscarada to just be underwhelming right now? It feels like it either is too weak at times and prediction reliant. Could just be me but I haven't found it very threatening. Weavile feels like the better offensive dark type.

Meow is good into anything that isn't stall (and even then stall doesn't necessarily fall to meow). I do think that some experimentation, like t-spikes and sucker punch, could be useful, but I think meow is kinda at the point where it can't really compete with the competition. It just doesn't have enough to differentiate itself from the other powerful grass or dark types.

 

[tommytt22]

Meow is good into anything that isn't stall (and even then stall doesn't necessarily fall to meow). I do think that some experimentation, like t-spikes and sucker punch, could be useful, but I think meow is kinda at the point where it can't really compete with the competition. It just doesn't have enough to differentiate itself from the other powerful grass or dark types.

black sludge meow lead. first turn toxic spike to become poison type. and get some recovery. second turn trick/switcheroo whichever one it learns. uturn out if you still alive by then

 

[GummyRowlets]

Hi! Everyone as the metagame has developed I have just wanted to give my current thoughts and input it as a whole on every play style right now

Just a quick read-through of what every rating of mine means since this is my first time doing this type of thing

10/10 :D : If I ever put a playstyle as a 10/10, it's bad news. 10/10 infers that the playstyle itself is perfect and matches up well with everything in the metagame, having no major weakness like Stall has for ogerpon or HO with unaware Pokemon. If a team gets this score, it means it's broken/unbalanced and had no place being there.

9/10 :D : A 9/10 is the highest I believe any one playstyle should ever receive for the health of a metagame, 9/10 teams are known for being consistently able to match up well into most of the metagame as a whole; this doesn't mean they don't have poor match up though. It merely means that the team is so well built, that they always have a way of playing around any bad matches up with some hidden tech or even just a simple tera.

8/10 : Just like 9/10, 8/10, are overall consistent play styles that match up well with metagame threats, easily able to adjust and combat whatever comes their way. 8/10 just means they are overall less consistent have a playstyle and have a bit of a tougher time into tough matchups. They're still great but must be used with a bit more foresight and strategy than 9/10.

7/10 : This is where I believe the cutoff is for viable OU. This is the line where you start sacrificing overall consistency and certain matchups. It doesn't mean you can't outplay, but it merely means you will struggle much more than other archetypes.

6/10 and all below: This is where I consider teams to not be overall good/viable. In certain matches, they can be decent, but in others, they lose and you wish you had a way better team

Balance 9/10: Balance has always been a staple and it continues to be in gen 9 OU. It has the most consistent match-up spread into the metagame. Balance can utilize both offensive and defensive pieces to make cores that counter the majority of the metagame at large. Hate Sun? Balance has Glowking. Hate Opposing Balance? Don't worry, we got choice specs/ banded Pokemon? Hate stall? We got hazards and knock-off users for DAYS. Balance ability to handle most playstyles and have so many variations makes it top tier. There's tusk balance, Bulky balance, boot spam, and more variations. Balance is so flexible and although it may never be dominant in a specific matchup, it always has tools to handle a majority of the metagame at large. The main reason for it not being a 10/10 is just the relevance of all the balance breakers around. Ogerpon. darkai, and Kyurem all have minimal switch-ins and often have to be dealt with offensively
Note Worthy Balance Pokemon:
Examples: https://pokepast.es/a401d8ce33b86d65

Stall (6/10): When stall works, it works, and when it doesn't it doesn't. If you are up against HO/ offense, you are probably as happy as this Rowlet: . But Stall struggles to cover all match up. Stall wants Tera dragon on Dondozo for ogerpon, but Tera fights for Kambit. Stall wants shadowball for Gholdengo on Blissey but also want's status/ hazards to halt your opponent. Stall inherently slower nature means it needs hyperspecific techs sometimes, but it can't cover all. Meaning if your opponent has a calm mind prim with psychic noise, and you have no haze on clod, you're screwed. Stall struggles a lot to outplay bad matchups, but it still has ones where it just dominates sometimes and destroys any hopes of your opponent's teams. I do think it will always be decent just because of HO and offense teams prevalence everywhere, but with how bad some matchups are, I can't put it any higher
Note Worthy Stall Mons:
Example: https://pokepast.es/e0f8cdd4c0312c08

Hyper Offense (7.5/10): HO had always had a reputation for being a bit of a match-up fish. You want to make sure you have the right offensive threats and that your opponent's defense is minimal or slower than your own, but in Gen 9, this has changed. HO plethora of new, great Pokemon like and way, way more means more consistency and options. They also got one of the best leads in the game: Glimmora. Because of this, HO has reached new levels of consistency not typically seen with even some creativity allowed in the team builder. My reasoning for putting it this low however is just the match-fish nature of it making it feel inconsistent as teams, not to mention the fear they feel when a Dondozo and Blissey are looking them down.
Note Worthy HO Mons:
Example: https://pokepast.es/9703724f49be3b7a

Offense 8/10 or 9/10: Offense takes HO and adds consistency with it by having walls that blanket check over a plethora of the metagame. An example is the classic Lando plus Glowking core which uses each others bulk, utility, and pivoting to bring in offensive threats. By adding two defensive mons, offensive teams have more ways of moving around into certain teammates and can afford to play slower ironically, making them feel less flowcharty and much more consistent to dare I say maybe even the levels of standard balance. Offense has no major weak points and has much customizability and neat techs for certain matches. One of my fav is AV Prim checking so many threats out here whilst still having pivoting.
Note Worthy Offensive Mons: :
Example: https://pokepast.es/f6d23af182294e5b

Sun (5/10): At first starting DLC 2, Sun was a beast. People thought it would be OU staple and be just as good as other offensive threats, boy were we wrong? Sun main issue to me is the lack of any defensive structure. Sun teams naturally use the legendary dogs, great tusk, and roaring moon; guess what these all have in common? No good defensive synergy. Fairy, ground, and dragon are all busted into sun and will typically force an OHKO or force hat out for the eject button. Sun teams also hate the existence of Glowking, being able to ruin all their hopes and dreams of having consistency. Wake, gouging fire, and tusk are still busted with sun but with the lack of defensive back bone, initial power, and glowking, I can't see myself rating this playstyle very high at all.
Note Worthy Sun Mons:
Examples: https://pokepast.es/834ee77b6ca617c8

Trick Room (3/10) Dear god, please never use this if you want to win. i rather see someone use a choice scarf than ever use this playstyle. NEVER USE IT DEAR LORD
Note Worthy Trick Room Mons: I'M NOT SAYING DEAR LOR STOP TRYING TO MAKE THIS PLAYSTYLE WORK

Grassy Terrain (6/10): This is a team style I'm always surprised by because of one mon, Hawlucha. It's a devastating mon that once comes out, and will usually pick up at least one KO with decent typing and encore for disruption. isn't the only one, and the ass are all commonly used of G-Terrain and use it pretty well. I would rate it higher but mainly being weak against Ice spinner and only one great abuser, I can't rate it any higher.
Note Worthy G-Terrain Mons:
Example: https://pokepast.es/8b611915c5742a53

 

[Magcargo]

Ehh this is one I won't agree with, as forcing a tera can be very advantageous (and thus theoretically the Zone user still made out favorably).

On a different note, anybody find Meowscarada to just be underwhelming right now? It feels like it either is too weak at times and prediction reliant. Could just be me but I haven't found it very threatening. Weavile feels like the better offensive dark type.

The cat is better rn then its been in a good while. Volcarona's recent ban has made life a lot better for it, making it much more free for it to click its good buttons like U-turn, Knock Off, etc without needing to Tera Fire. I see a lot of players call it worse than Ogerpon or Weavile, but it has sets it does better than either of them, namely choice sets due to its lack of Stealth Rock weakness and Protean. CB is KOing a good number of threats from reasonable ranges while also being very fast, while Scarf is still one of the few Pokemon capable of revenge killing the likes of +1 Roaring Moon. This mon isn't really all that prediction reliant when its STABs have perfect coverage + it can just click U-turn in most situations for a (mostly) net positive trade + good chip damage into most of its switch-ins, esp since its getting a STAB damage bonus from it. Its other spammable moves like Knock Off or Flower Trick are also just really easy clicks on 90% of threats with little drawback. Really the main "prediction" with it is just reading Teras and even against that, it handles just fine since its fast U-turn lets it scout easily. I'd say Weavile is hurt more by random Teras since U-turn doesn't let it scout as easily (though its still quite good IMO).

I think Weavile and Ogerpon are better at the boots crap due to their tools (though Meow isn't completely worthless at the role since it does compress Axel + U-turn). Nonetheless, it still has its place in the meta and can perform roles largely unique to it. The kanto birds are a bit better rn, but not quite back to the level of their prime, so Meow does wind up feeling better than it did in DLC1 for me personally.

 

[MrE]

I heard that some guy got number 2 on the ladder with a probopass.

sooooo does that mean that it is going to get in the bottom of viability list now?

Nah, it's more just proof of how broken Gambit is.

 

[Duck Chris]

The cat is better rn then its been in a good while. Volcarona's recent ban has made life a lot better for it, making it much more free for it to click its good buttons like U-turn, Knock Off, etc without needing to Tera Fire. I see a lot of players call it worse than Ogerpon or Weavile, but it has sets it does better than either of them, namely choice sets due to its lack of Stealth Rock weakness and Protean. CB is KOing a good number of threats from reasonable ranges while also being very fast, while Scarf is still one of the few Pokemon capable of revenge killing the likes of +1 Roaring Moon. This mon isn't really all that prediction reliant when its STABs have perfect coverage + it can just click U-turn in most situations for a (mostly) net positive trade + good chip damage into most of its switch-ins, esp since its getting a STAB damage bonus from it. Its other spammable moves like Knock Off or Flower Trick are also just really easy clicks on 90% of threats with little drawback. Really the main "prediction" with it is just reading Teras and even against that, it handles just fine since its fast U-turn lets it scout easily. I'd say Weavile is hurt more by random Teras since U-turn doesn't let it scout as easily (though its still quite good IMO).

I think Weavile and Ogerpon are better at the boots crap due to their tools (though Meow isn't completely worthless at the role since it does compress Axel + U-turn). Nonetheless, it still has its place in the meta and can perform roles largely unique to it. The kanto birds are a bit better rn, but not quite back to the level of their prime, so Meow does wind up feeling better than it did in DLC1 for me personally.

As a dedicated hater I have some thoughts to share on this.
My main problem with Meow is that it cannot carry a team, and the structure of just putting a bunch of defensive pivots with a lot of hazards combined with boots Meow to force switches is a lot less reliable than it once was. Since Meow is weak, pokemon like Gouging Fire can just stay in and start boosting up. Even common neutral targets like Valiant only take 68% from boots Flower Trick, and can easily moonblast or start boosting up. Zamazenta also completely sits on Meow, boosting up and threatening common hazard setters such as Ting-Lu.

I think Meow has a lot of potential due to the mentioned positive traits like speed tier and utility compression, but the balance hazard stacking teams are not it. I think it would fare well in volt-turn type offense where you have more threats in the background to truly punish the common Meow answers, and it can be more of a bait and switch pokemon than a true threat. I do think band and scarf are probably more effective than boots in almost every case, but other items like life orb could even be used with sucker punch as an extra option. It also has some unholy coverage options like Acrobatics, Hone Claws, Play Rough, Thief, Trick and even Worry Seed.

 

[658Greninja]

As a dedicated hater I have some thoughts to share on this.
My main problem with Meow is that it cannot carry a team, and the structure of just putting a bunch of defensive pivots with a lot of hazards combined with boots Meow to force switches is a lot less reliable than it once was. Since Meow is weak, pokemon like Gouging Fire can just stay in and start boosting up. Even common neutral targets like Valiant only take 68% from boots Flower Trick, and can easily moonblast or start boosting up. Zamazenta also completely sits on Meow, boosting up and threatening common hazard setters such as Ting-Lu.

I think Meow has a lot of potential due to the mentioned positive traits like speed tier and utility compression, but the balance hazard stacking teams are not it. I think it would fare well in volt-turn type offense where you have more threats in the background to truly punish the common Meow answers, and it can be more of a bait and switch pokemon than a true threat. I do think band and scarf are probably more effective than boots in almost every case, but other items like life orb could even be used with sucker punch as an extra option. It also has some unholy coverage options like Acrobatics, Hone Claws, Play Rough, Thief, Trick and even Worry Seed.

I also wanna add that Boots Meow is considerably worse into offense than Grasspon or Weavile are.

Grasspon has Encore and can boost its speed with Tera, while Weavile has priority Ice Shard.

Scarf Meow might be alright for rkilling Moon and Pult, but feels a bit weak otherwise. Band Meow has promise but it doesn’t see much top level play.

 

[Wapf]

black sludge meow lead. first turn toxic spike to become poison type. and get some recovery. second turn trick/switcheroo whichever one it learns. uturn out if you still alive by then

This sounds so heat and bad at the same time that I need to try it

 

[ant4456]

The cat is better rn then its been in a good while. Volcarona's recent ban has made life a lot better for it, making it much more free for it to click its good buttons like U-turn, Knock Off, etc without needing to Tera Fire. I see a lot of players call it worse than Ogerpon or Weavile, but it has sets it does better than either of them, namely choice sets due to its lack of Stealth Rock weakness and Protean. CB is KOing a good number of threats from reasonable ranges while also being very fast, while Scarf is still one of the few Pokemon capable of revenge killing the likes of +1 Roaring Moon. This mon isn't really all that prediction reliant when its STABs have perfect coverage + it can just click U-turn in most situations for a (mostly) net positive trade + good chip damage into most of its switch-ins, esp since its getting a STAB damage bonus from it. Its other spammable moves like Knock Off or Flower Trick are also just really easy clicks on 90% of threats with little drawback. Really the main "prediction" with it is just reading Teras and even against that, it handles just fine since its fast U-turn lets it scout easily. I'd say Weavile is hurt more by random Teras since U-turn doesn't let it scout as easily (though its still quite good IMO).

I think Weavile and Ogerpon are better at the boots crap due to their tools (though Meow isn't completely worthless at the role since it does compress Axel + U-turn). Nonetheless, it still has its place in the meta and can perform roles largely unique to it. The kanto birds are a bit better rn, but not quite back to the level of their prime, so Meow does wind up feeling better than it did in DLC1 for me personally.

Every other month people say it's Meow-over, and then by the next it's Meowback.

I'm predicting it ends up OU, not UU.

 

[Finchinator]

Meow hasn’t been genuinely threatening for the last five months. It derives viability off of utility with the scarf set while the boots set sees very infrequent play at higher levels. With Darkrai surging, Weavile having Ice Shard, Moon being phenomenal, etc., fitting Meow is very hard, especially seeing as it’s a Grass type that is OHKO’d by Waterpon moves.

I still think it’s an OU pokemon, but it’s not “back” to peak viability and it’s more fringe than anything else. Scarf taking hazards sucks, but having Trick and Knock options with that speed is very convenient sometimes.

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

"is meowscarada good" right now has the same answer as "is showdown up": nobody can be certain because it changes without rhyme or reason

 

[Venuesaur]

I also wanna add that Boots Meow is considerably worse into offense than Grasspon or Weavile are.

Grasspon has Encore and can boost its speed with Tera, while Weavile has priority Ice Shard.

Scarf Meow might be alright for rkilling Moon and Pult, but feels a bit weak otherwise. Band Meow has promise but it doesn’t see much top level play.

Yeah boots meow struggles as a grass type because of how threatening Darkrai is for balance, and just missing that speed tier is awful for it. It also competes with Grasspon as a knock turn pivot, who coincidentally can tera into having a 525 speed tier. And then there's weavile, darkrai, waterpon, Rillaboom and the plethora of either grass type or dark type options. It's solid though; choiced sets are good, with band shredding balance and scarf rkilling key threats. It def has some justification imo, esp if you decide to run sucker punch on it.

 

[sims796]

Trick feels weird on a mon that utilizes Knock Off as it's main asset at times. I'll need to pay close attention of when I can click that button, lest I KO the wrong mon and waste the move slot.

 

[Mimikyu Stardust]

Meow hasn’t been genuinely threatening for the last five months. It derives viability off of utility with the scarf set while the boots set sees very infrequent play at higher levels. With Darkrai surging, Weavile having Ice Shard, Moon being phenomenal, etc., fitting Meow is very hard, especially seeing as it’s a Grass type that is OHKO’d by Waterpon moves.

I still think it’s an OU pokemon, but it’s not “back” to peak viability and it’s more fringe than anything else. Scarf taking hazards sucks, but having Trick and Knock options with that speed is very convenient sometimes.

I think you are underselling meow a little harshly, i find it most useful on balance builds (and electric terrain too) because a lot of balance teams get destroyed by samurott-h, darkrai, roaring moon, waterpon and certain iron valiant sets, it can easily come in on a double or pivot into these mons and create an awkward position where you are forced to give up momentum againts balance which is really bad since the best way to take out balance is play with your own tempo to gain momentum and overwhelm them. Works great with great tusk, gliscor, corviknight and garg since you threaten their checks. Of course its not only good on balance, but ive seen some BO builds use it alongside AV Crown, darkrai and cinderace.

Besides, band meow is still a really underrated set, most teams uses scarf nowadays so band is less expected, yea it no longer beats darkrai but the power from stab triple axel or flower trick is nothing to scoff at. I use it on a BO team with a hard darkrai coutner like fezandipiti paired with set up sweepers to take advantage of it. Meow is in a pretty good place right now and would expect it to rise in usage soon, tho its def not a top 10 mon at all.

 

[1LDK]

I am of the opinion of "meow mid" it was good at the start of dlc 2, but it has 4 item syndrome, she really wants boots, band and scarf, and even potentially something whack like pads to have some niches, and it's really painful to use when not having the correct item, and even then, as a physical attacker is so bad it loses to corviknight (the worst ou mon) and sure hitting donzo and mola is good, but stall runs gliscor + an extra shitmon that could ruin it, you need one toxic and then start beefing, not to mention you can just receive scald burn and be done. She is super ultra specific and honestly, all ogers, amoongus, rilla, hydrapple, chesnaught, venasaur, serperior and sinitcha is just too much competition

 

[ant4456]

I think you are underselling meow a little harshly, i find it most useful on balance builds (and electric terrain too) because a lot of balance teams get destroyed by samurott-h, darkrai, roaring moon, waterpon and certain iron valiant sets, it can easily come in on a double or pivot into these mons and create an awkward position where you are forced to give up momentum againts balance which is really bad since the best way to take out balance is play with your own tempo to gain momentum and overwhelm them. Works great with great tusk, gliscor, corviknight and garg since you threaten their checks. Of course its not only good on balance, but ive seen some BO builds use it alongside AV Crown, darkrai and cinderace.

Besides, band meow is still a really underrated set, most teams uses scarf nowadays so band is less expected, yea it no longer beats darkrai but the power from stab triple axel or flower trick is nothing to scoff at. I use it on a BO team with a hard darkrai coutner like fezandipiti paired with set up sweepers to take advantage of it. Meow is in a pretty good place right now and would expect it to rise in usage soon, tho its def not a top 10 mon at all.

I've always been a fan of Balance Meow just as it's one of the few good Scarfers.

I have never been comfortable on Balance just relying on my one-time Booster Pokemon to revenge kill, and Meow isn't limited like that.

Obvs Meow isn't some top tier offensive threat, but I've seen a lot of people saying it was a UU mon for a few months now and I really just don't think it's accurate.

 

[Rekka's Backend]

Meowscarada is a BASED and honest Pokemon. Unlike the shameless Dragonpult or K*ng G*mbit that promote degenerate playstyles. You wanna click Knock? You do so with gusto. You wanna U-Turn out to a wall? You're fucking fabulous doing so. You wanna hit Lowkick on a G*mbit that thinks he's coming in free? You fucking will.

It's also very cute and eats out of a paw shaped dish. Don't let these fraud allegations distract you from the fact this is a GOOD Pokemon.